IStream

Dylan's New Boat Anarchy

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"I love the smell of napalm diesel in the morning; its the smell of victory old boats." Cue: The Ride of the Valkyrie.

As long as you don't mind smelling like a furnace oil delivery man, its not that bad...compared to cleaning out cruse oil separators - a job I have done more than once.

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Boats don't always smell like fuel and sewage.

I'm amazed at the number of knowledgable sailors who seem to not even realize this is an issue. Boat stink inside, isn't that why you sail the open sea for fresh air?

1- cleanliness

2- ventilation

3- cleanliness

4- cleanliness

Did I mention that if you CLEAN your fucking boat, it won't be a tight-wrapped bundle of bad smells?

A vinegar wipe down does wonders

FB- Doug

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36 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Boats don't always smell like fuel and sewage.

I'm amazed at the number of knowledgable sailors who seem to not even realize this is an issue. Boat stink inside, isn't that why you sail the open sea for fresh air?

1- cleanliness

2- ventilation

3- cleanliness

4- cleanliness

Did I mention that if you CLEAN your fucking boat, it won't be a tight-wrapped bundle of bad smells?

A vinegar wipe down does wonders

FB- Doug

agreed. My boat used to smell. It doesn't smell now. Of course, it required bilge paint, a new engine and a new head!

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I find it amusing how a few pages ago the consensus was that diesel engines were like reliable clockwork unless you were an incompetent sailor and now there are pages about odours and fuel goop issues.

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The consensus was that with a modicum of easy and routine maintenance to ensure a clean fuel supply and sufficient cooling water, diesel engines are reliable like clockwork. 

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9 minutes ago, IStream said:

The consensus was that with a modicum of easy and routine maintenance to ensure a clean fuel supply and sufficient cooling water, diesel engines are reliable like clockwork. 

Mine lived a long life. It was on its 2nd boat and approaching 35 years old and 7000 hours. It could’ve been rebuilt, but really?

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26 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

I find it amusing how a few pages ago the consensus was that diesel engines were like reliable clockwork unless you were an incompetent sailor and now there are pages about odours and fuel goop issues.

I think the consensus was changed to raw sewage and diesel fuel in the bilge are still preferable to a electric drive.....

In seriousness new old boat cleaning sucks, until it doesn't.  So nice to get things sorted and maintained, just a slog getting there sometimes.

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7 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Boats don't always smell like fuel and sewage.

I'm amazed at the number of knowledgable sailors who seem to not even realize this is an issue. Boat stink inside, isn't that why you sail the open sea for fresh air?

1- cleanliness

2- ventilation

3- cleanliness

4- cleanliness

Did I mention that if you CLEAN your fucking boat, it won't be a tight-wrapped bundle of bad smells?

A vinegar wipe down does wonders

FB- Doug

Just be sure to use your toilet brush to scrub things down.

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On 10/31/2020 at 6:08 PM, Panope said:

 

This is a refit of a customer's glass hulled boat, not my (metal) boat.

We do not have a steam cleaner or pump unit on site.

Interior of boat is in immaculate condition.  I do not want to blast that shit all over the place.

Just an hour or two of hell and it will be all over.

Steve

fill tank half with degreaser and go for a sail, choose a heavy sea so the degreaser get sloshed around good.

Close the hatches and make sure you take diesel from a different tank.

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On 11/2/2020 at 7:14 AM, Panoramix said:

I find it amusing how a few pages ago the consensus was that diesel engines were like reliable clockwork unless you were an incompetent sailor and now there are pages about odours and fuel goop issues.

That's because you're totally incapable of overcoming your ignorance and prejudices.

Diesel engines are reliable IF AND ONLY IF YOU ACTUALLY DO PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE.

Which, obviously, is a point that you're incapable of understanding.

If you don't let sludge get a hold in the tanks it won't block filters at an unfortunate time.

If you have a dual filter setup you can swap out a clogged filter if shit does get in it.

If you buy an old boat with unknown quality fuel it's prudent to pump it all out and through big filters and then inspect the insides of the tanks BEFORE you're actually forced to do this via a fuel blockage. Same amount of pain/effort just at a time & place of your choosing not Murphy's.

OTOH if you take your attitude then nothing is going to be reliable but somehow, it's all the fault of the machinery and none due to the operator.

So yeah people like you shouldn't have machinery.

We've just got back from a couple days out. Not a single drama with any of the gear including the engine, which got 3 hours run time. Day tank pumped up prior to departure, filter bowls clean, oil checked, coolant checked.

You'd likely blame the mainsail for falling down because a neglected halyard had chafed through.

FKT

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9 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

That's because you're totally incapable of overcoming your ignorance and prejudices.

Diesel engines are reliable IF AND ONLY IF YOU ACTUALLY DO PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE.

Which, obviously, is a point that you're incapable of understanding.

If you don't let sludge get a hold in the tanks it won't block filters at an unfortunate time.

If you have a dual filter setup you can swap out a clogged filter if shit does get in it.

If you buy an old boat with unknown quality fuel it's prudent to pump it all out and through big filters and then inspect the insides of the tanks BEFORE you're actually forced to do this via a fuel blockage. Same amount of pain/effort just at a time & place of your choosing not Murphy's.

OTOH if you take your attitude then nothing is going to be reliable but somehow, it's all the fault of the machinery and none due to the operator.

So yeah people like you shouldn't have machinery.

We've just got back from a couple days out. Not a single drama with any of the gear including the engine, which got 3 hours run time. Day tank pumped up prior to departure, filter bowls clean, oil checked, coolant checked.

You'd likely blame the mainsail for falling down because a neglected halyard had chafed through.

FKT

Look, my dad is a volunteer at the lifeboat association and they bring back lot of people with malfunctioning engines and very few with broken rigs. Yes, if you are a qualified diesel mechanic or if mechanics is your hobby, you can probably keep the engine running as reliably as a tug engine would but in real life most people can only get a mechanic once or may be twice a year to service and maintain it and that isn't quite enough to have a blind faith in the thing.

On lifeboats obviously their lives depend on their engines and the quantity of effort they put in their maintenance is absolutely impressive. Most people just can't do this on a pleasure boat, for a start a big maintenance where you disassemble and check everything is not economic, a proper preventive maintenance regime for most of us who aren't diesel mechanics would mean junking the engine every 10 years or so. There are many use cases where a diesel is justified but on most sailing boats safety and superior reliability isn't a good justification. A mast and a sail is much more reliable. There are lot of potential failure points and the prudent thing is to consider that the engine might pack anytime and sail accordingly (anchor ready and never put yourself in a situation where if the engine packs you are in big trouble). It works for me, I touch wood but I haven't asked for assistance (yet ?) apart from a few tows inside tight harbours where sailing would have been too risky.

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2 hours ago, Panoramix said:

...Most people just can't do this on a pleasure boat, for a start a big maintenance where you disassemble and check everything is not economic, a proper preventive maintenance regime for most of us who aren't diesel mechanics would mean junking the engine every 10 years or so. There are many use cases where a diesel is justified but on most sailing boats safety and superior reliability isn't a good justification. A mast and a sail is much more reliable. There are lot of potential failure points and the prudent thing is to consider that the engine might pack anytime and sail accordingly (anchor ready and never put yourself in a situation where if the engine packs you are in big trouble). It works for me, I touch wood but I haven't asked for assistance (yet ?) apart from a few tows inside tight harbours where sailing would have been too risky.

I call BS. If you are a 'pure sailor' (like the Pardeys were) you can skip the diesel engine but you had better be able to make the sails set well, repairs tears and wear, and be able to jury rig...because rig stuff will break at the most inopportune time. If, like most of us here, you have a sailing auxiliary with a diesel, you will be able to motor home when the wind won't blow, when the tide is foul, when the main halyard breaks or the furler jams. You have more options but, in addition to sailing skills, you had better know how to change the filters, bleed the fuel system, tension the belts, change an impeller, adjust the valve lash and do the other basic tasks that are in the owners manual. If you can't do these things, and have to hire a mechanic to do them for you, you are not a sailor; you are a yachtsman, with all that implies in terms of privilege, wealth, and attitude. In my books being a yachtsman isn't necessarily bad - I just can't afford it. I can however sail and maintain a diesel auxiliary and I love the convenience and security of having both sails and an engine.

EDIT: Most of the diesels I have owned were at least 30 years old, so "junking the engine every 10 years or so" is a ridiculous exaggeration IMO. I have only gone farther than removing a valve cover on one of my diesels and that was because the engine was seized when I bought the boat (salt water damage). I successfully rebuilt that engine myself, outsourcing only the machining work. I am not a trained mechanic - just self-taught.

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4 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

I call BS. If you are a 'pure sailor' (like the Pardeys were) you can skip the diesel engine but you had better be able to make the sails set well, repairs tears and wear, and be able to jury rig...because rig stuff will break at the most inopportune time. If, like most of us here, you have a sailing auxiliary with a diesel, you will be able to motor home when the wind won't blow, when the tide is foul, when the main halyard breaks or the furler jams. You have more options but, in addition to sailing skills, you had better know how to change the filters, bleed the fuel system, tension the belts, change an impeller, adjust the valve lash and do the other basic tasks that are in the owners manual. If you can't do these things, and have to hire a mechanic to do them for you, you are not a sailor; you are a yachtsman, with all that implies in terms of privilege, wealth, and attitude. In my books being a yachtsman isn't necessarily bad - I just can't afford it. I can however sail and maintain a diesel auxiliary and I love the convenience and security of having both sails and an engine.

Panoramix is wilfully ignorant and counts this as a virtue. He then blames an engine for failing due to his shortcomings.

I'm not much of a sailor but I can fix pretty much everything on my boat, seeing as I built it in the first place. Including the masts, rigging and sails. Something I'd bet Panoramix can't say.

Funny thing about the Pardeys - they were notorious for hanging about outside a harbour and soliciting a tow.

FKT

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1 minute ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I'm not much of a sailor but I can fix pretty much everything on my boat, seeing as I built it in the first place. Including the masts, rigging and sails. Something I'd bet Panoramix can't say.

I built a racing boat 25 years ago!

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Hi,

      Is there a perspective issue here?  Panoramix is writing from a corner of the world which has a long history of small boats and seafaring, perhaps with a culturally deep seated suspicion of internal combustion. Most of the contributors here are USA/Australia, with a strongly rooted attachment to technological solutions generally, and engines in particular... witness the profligation of powerboats across the USA and compare a typical American marina to one in Britanny... or compare the coming of age ritual in the USA, where young men are expected to be modifying and rebuilding engines in their teens with a French outlook oriented around outdoor activities like cycling, skiing, climbing, dinghy sailing... even stuff like parkour and the popularity of races like the VG speak to a different (sub?) cultural view of city and open ocean.

 It's easy to pick up on stereotypes and clichés but they are often based on a perceptible difference in viewpoint. To some an engine is an intrinsically complex spof, used only when necessary and who's presence is at best a compromise. To others it's a relatively simple example of a central pillar of their everyday lives which every competent adult should be familiar with.

 Just a thought... :-)

Cheers,

                W.

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3 hours ago, Panoramix said:

On lifeboats obviously their lives depend on their engines and the quantity of effort they put in their maintenance is absolutely impressive. Most people just can't do this on a pleasure boat, for a start a big maintenance where you disassemble and check everything is not economic, a proper preventive maintenance regime for most of us who aren't diesel mechanics would mean junking the engine every 10 years or so. There are many use cases where a diesel is justified but on most sailing boats safety and superior reliability isn't a good justification. A mast and a sail is much more reliable.

The ten year thing is a bit over-dramatic, lots of boats running around with reliable diesels & I'll bet most of them are over ten years old. Mines the same age as the boat, once I cleaned my fuel tank its never given any trouble.

All the engine needs is clean fuel and cooling water, if you can give it that then its fine. 1 oil change a year, do the belts, filters at the same time.
Its a pain in the arse, but so is anti-fouling, polishing, varnishing and a myriad of other jobs that need doing.

I do agree that a mast & sail is much more reliable, I don't like leaving the harbour without the sails bent on, but even though the sails & mast are more reliable the wind itself isn't. I sail on the Humber, we have 6knot + tides, & no 24 hour harbors, an engine is a massive boon.
If I lived on a lake I'm sure I could manage with electric or nothing.

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1 hour ago, WGWarburton said:

Hi,

      Is there a perspective issue here?  Panoramix is writing from a corner of the world which has a long history of small boats and seafaring, perhaps with a culturally deep seated suspicion of internal combustion. Most of the contributors here are USA/Australia, with a strongly rooted attachment to technological solutions generally, and engines in particular... witness the profligation of powerboats across the USA and compare a typical American marina to one in Britanny... or compare the coming of age ritual in the USA, where young men are expected to be modifying and rebuilding engines in their teens with a French outlook oriented around outdoor activities like cycling, skiing, climbing, dinghy sailing... even stuff like parkour and the popularity of races like the VG speak to a different (sub?) cultural view of city and open ocean.

 It's easy to pick up on stereotypes and clichés but they are often based on a perceptible difference in viewpoint. To some an engine is an intrinsically complex spof, used only when necessary and who's presence is at best a compromise. To others it's a relatively simple example of a central pillar of their everyday lives which every competent adult should be familiar with.

 Just a thought... :-)

Cheers,

                W.

I agree there are different perspectives at issue here, but I don't think its regional. Its more akin to the Industrial Revolution experience with the rail barons at one extreme and the Luddites at the other. I come from an area where engines were adapted to fishing boats, beginning in the late 19th century. First there were stationary engines for pumping, anchor and sail handling. This was at a time when sailing rigs were evolving towards powering the largest, fastest vessels - e.g. Banks schooners, clipper ships and fast pilot and packet boats. After WW I, most working vessels in my area (Canadian Maritimes) had an engine, often a gasoline 'make and break', which was considered very reliable at the time. I am sure there were purists who eschewed engines - Joshua Slocum was one - but most seafarers saw the advantage of having an engine of some form or another in spite of the mechanical challenges.  Its no different today - sail technology has evolved thanks to petrochemicals and modern composites, while marine diesels are incredibly reliable and efficient. If Panoramix thinks diesels are the devil, he might want to consider trading in his synthetic sails and line for canvas and manila...

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2 hours ago, MiddayGun said:

I do agree that a mast & sail is much more reliable, I don't like leaving the harbour without the sails bent on, but even though the sails & mast are more reliable the wind itself isn't. I sail on the Humber, we have 6knot + tides, & no 24 hour harbors, an engine is a massive boon.
If I lived on a lake I'm sure I could manage with electric or nothing.

Yes, if you are engineless, you definitely need a good anchor, there is no doubt about this!

58 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

Joshua Slocum was one - but most seafarers saw the advantage of having an engine of some form or another in spite of the mechanical challenges.  Its no different today - sail technology has evolved thanks to petrochemicals and modern composites, while marine diesels are incredibly reliable and efficient. If Panoramix thinks diesels are the devil, he might want to consider trading in his synthetic sails and line for canvas and manila...

I am not saying that we shouldn't use diesel engines, just that their reliability is over-estimated and I don't consider them as a the ultimate get out of jail card when things become difficult. Commercial boats or ships have trained mechanics onboard for a reason. The lifeboat people are also obsessed with maintenance for a reason and if I were on a boat that actually needs the engine for safety reasons, I would want it to be maintained like a lifeboat engine or at least to have 2 of them (probably the most practical solution for a sailing boat). On a lifeboat proper preventive maintenance involves stripping out for a thorough check lot of elements every decade or so (hence my junk it every 10 years remark). I've used many diesel engines, I've no problem with that, they are very convenient on a windless day or to dock, I just don't trust them 100%.

 

2 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Hi,

      Is there a perspective issue here?  Panoramix is writing from a corner of the world which has a long history of small boats and seafaring, perhaps with a culturally deep seated suspicion of internal combustion. Most of the contributors here are USA/Australia, with a strongly rooted attachment to technological solutions generally, and engines in particular... witness the profligation of powerboats across the USA and compare a typical American marina to one in Britanny... or compare the coming of age ritual in the USA, where young men are expected to be modifying and rebuilding engines in their teens with a French outlook oriented around outdoor activities like cycling, skiing, climbing, dinghy sailing... even stuff like parkour and the popularity of races like the VG speak to a different (sub?) cultural view of city and open ocean.

 It's easy to pick up on stereotypes and clichés but they are often based on a perceptible difference in viewpoint. To some an engine is an intrinsically complex spof, used only when necessary and who's presence is at best a compromise. To others it's a relatively simple example of a central pillar of their everyday lives which every competent adult should be familiar with.

 Just a thought... :-)

Cheers,

                W.

You might be onto something, I don't think that here my view would be considered "extreme".

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Sailing round the Breton coast with no engine, 10 metre  tides and the place stuffed with pointy granite rocks. :o

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

I agree there are different perspectives at issue here, but I don't think its regional. Its more akin to the Industrial Revolution experience with the rail barons at one extreme and the Luddites at the other. I come from an area where engines were adapted to fishing boats, beginning in the late 19th century. First there were stationary engines for pumping, anchor and sail handling. This was at a time when sailing rigs were evolving towards powering the largest, fastest vessels - e.g. Banks schooners, clipper ships and fast pilot and packet boats. After WW I, most working vessels in my area (Canadian Maritimes) had an engine, often a gasoline 'make and break', which was considered very reliable at the time. I am sure there were purists who eschewed engines - Joshua Slocum was one - but most seafarers saw the advantage of having an engine of some form or another in spite of the mechanical challenges.  Its no different today - sail technology has evolved thanks to petrochemicals and modern composites, while marine diesels are incredibly reliable and efficient. If Panoramix thinks diesels are the devil, he might want to consider trading in his synthetic sails and line for canvas and manila...

 It's not about progress in that sense (though it could be argued that seeing it through that lens is telling), it's about the attitude.... maybe a better way to come at it is to look at a typical starter boat for someone who lives near the coast, has done some sailing and has a few friends that sail regularly and would like to own their own boat?

 So, that would typically be a 20-25 footer, probably with an outboard, yes? Maybe a little bigger if they have a family, or perhaps it's a second boat?  A quick search on Apollo Duck France shows us: Etap 23, Dufour 2800, Sun Odyssey 24.2, maybe a first-25 or first-8? Moving up to a 25-30 footer is a pretty big step and means you probably have to have an inboard, which makes ownership quite a bit more involved... still, if you're not an engineer there are plenty of places where you can get it serviced once a year. As long as it's reasonably new it should be OK.

 Maybe I'm wrong but that doesn't seem like a familiar story from contributors in North America? Australia? What would be a typical route in to boat ownership there? Would it be normal to sail around with only occasional use of an outboard?

 From a reliability PoV, it might be worth noting some UK statistics for RNLI callouts:

According to a recent press release, the RNLI were called out more than 13,000 times to boaters between 2017 and 2019 – nearly 9,000 times in 2019 alone.

1. The top reason for an emergency call out in the last two years involving a boat was machinery failure, with more than 4,000 incidents: engines overheating, contaminated fuel, faulty filters, faulty belts and blocked impellers. “Prior to going out on the water always make sure you complete an engine and machinery check including belts oil bilges, coolant, strainers, air filters and seacocks,” says Ros Cameron from the RNLI safety team.

2. Equipment failure is the second most common reason for calling out the RNLI: “Since 2017 we’ve had almost 2,000 calls related to equipment failure,” says Ros Cameron. “Loss of power, halyards shrouds and mass breakages as well as steering and rudder failure. Look after your boat yourself and your crew,” she adds.

 +---------------------------------------------

So, you can blame this on crap maintenance, crap British engineering, crap powerboaters, crap training or just general stupidity but the statistics here suggest that engines can reasonably be perceived as unreliable... even if that doesn't mean that they should be or even that they really are when you look at the big picture...

Perspective.

Cheers,

                 W.

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1 hour ago, Whinging Pom said:

Sailing round the Breton coast with no engine, 10 metre  tides and the place stuffed with pointy granite rocks. :o

 

 

May be that's why reliability and redundancy matters so much to me...

I would advise against it but if you want to sail round the Breton coast with no engine, you need a good anchor, lot of knowledge and a lot of patience!

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34 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

... Maybe I'm wrong but that doesn't seem like a familiar story from contributors in North America? Australia? What would be a typical route in to boat ownership there? Would it be normal to sail around with only occasional use of an outboard?

 From a reliability PoV, it might be worth noting some UK statistics for RNLI callouts:

According to a recent press release, the RNLI were called out more than 13,000 times to boaters between 2017 and 2019 – nearly 9,000 times in 2019 alone.

 

In my part of Canada, sailboats with outboard motors are generally <25 feet and are used in protected waters and bays. Once you start sailing in ocean swell, diesels are the norm. The coast around here is similar to Brittany - rocky and hard - but tide is not as much of an issue until you are in the pull of the Bay of Fundy with tidal range up to 16 meters. A reliable diesel is a big part of my comfort level in my home waters; I consider myself a competent sailor, but having a reliable diesel I can depend on has helped me when shouldering through narrow passages with a sea running, when motor-sailing to avoid a long offshore board, getting in to harbour before dark or before the squall arrives. To me, it isn't a diesel or sail choice - its that having both is better and safer.

The RNLI figures are mind boggling to me - so many boats in the UK! But the causes of the call outs are to be expected. We all make mistakes, but novice and occasional boaters more so.

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You ALWAYS have to keep in mind that some people can break hammers. They will then go online and complain that the hammer was at fault. If 10% of all forum contributors are hammer breakers, then 10% of all complaints about mechanical devices/systems are from people who will destroy whatever it is they are trying to "fix". Whenever you are reading a forum post by someone denouncing the reliability of something, you have to ask yourself if this person is a hammer breaker inflicting their ignorance on the rest of us.

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

I am not saying that we shouldn't use diesel engines, just that their reliability is over-estimated and I don't consider them as a the ultimate get out of jail card when things become difficult. Commercial boats or ships have trained mechanics onboard for a reason. The lifeboat people are also obsessed with maintenance for a reason and if I were on a boat that actually needs the engine for safety reasons, I would want it to be maintained like a lifeboat engine or at least to have 2 of them (probably the most practical solution for a sailing boat). On a lifeboat proper preventive maintenance involves stripping out for a thorough check lot of elements every decade or so (hence my junk it every 10 years remark). I've used many diesel engines, I've no problem with that, they are very convenient on a windless day or to dock, I just don't trust them 100%

A lot of people equate fixing mechanical things with some sort of black magic or uber-geeky technical abilities. Nothing could be further from the truth with marine diesels as they are simple by design - you make keeping a small marine diesel reliable sound like the exclusive territory of master mechanics and marine engineers. You are, if I recall, an architect, a highly educated technical person, and yet you seem almost reluctant to dive in and get dirty working on a diesel. I would highly recommend taking a diesel engine course at a community college or marine institute. If you can do basic troubleshooting and maintenance on a diesel, you will find they are extremely reliable. That's why inshore fishermen, who are not generally trained mechanics, will trust their lives to their diesel engines.

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2 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

A lot of people equate fixing mechanical things with some sort of black magic or uber-geeky technical abilities. Nothing could be further from the truth with marine diesels as they are simple by design - you make keeping a small marine diesel reliable sound like the exclusive territory of master mechanics and marine engineers. You are, if I recall, an architect, a highly educated technical person, and yet you seem almost reluctant to dive in and get dirty working on a diesel. I would highly recommend taking a diesel engine course at a community college or marine institute. If you can do basic troubleshooting and maintenance on a diesel, you will find they are extremely reliable. That's why inshore fishermen, who are not generally trained mechanics, will trust their lives to their diesel engines.

Here inshore fishermen are trained mechanics even if the training is not as in depth as for a marine mechanic. I deal with buildings but I am not an architect as I am a structural engineer. So I am the wrong kind of engineer (tbh I know a bit as when I was a student all future engineers had to study some mechanics), but yes I could learn how to maintain them but life is short and there are lot of interesting things to do / study. Right now I am studying for a ham licence and putting back together some woodworking machines, I prefer the idea of playing with electronics and wood chips!

Even if it can be measured accurately, reliability is a subjective matter, I've sailed for 35 years, in those 35 years I may have had say about 10 engine "failures" so you could say that once every 3.5 years is not bad but then the once in a lifetime where it happens to you while you are windward of a rocky coast, it won't be good enough. My first failure was as a young inexperienced skipper, I was 17 years old and I ended up sculling a westerly centaur out of a lock, and sailing it up the river Rance (not lit at night!) in 5 knots of wind at night, that taught me 2 or 3 things the hard way about proper planning.

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6 hours ago, Jim in Halifax said:

 I successfully rebuilt that engine myself, outsourcing only the machining work. I am not a trained mechanic - just self-taught.

The first time it lit was absolutely exhilarating wasn't it? :D

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59 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

 You are, if I recall, an architect, a highly educated technical person, and yet you seem almost reluctant to dive in and get dirty working on a diesel.

In the majority of cases i suspect that is absolutely correct.

The biggest complaint that builders have about architects is that they never swung a hammer or drove a screw.

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My biggest hurdle to embarking on any mechanical repair is usually just getting started. Putting that first wrench or screwdriver to it.  I'm often wracked by the anxiety of "making matters worse" or failing to complete the job. Once I actually get started, I just plow my way through it.

So far, I've never had to take a pile of parts to a mechanic or have a car towed to a shop. I recently replaced the transfer case in my 5-ton military truck. It weighs 680-ish lbs, if I recall.  My "boogie man" with respect to working on my marine diesel is the high pressure injection pump. I'll hand that off to a shop with the specialized equipment to get the fuel metering and synchronization right. I don't have the gear to do it.  I could probably do everything else.

I was a Radioman and Electronics technician in the US Navy and I'm a network engineer now, so most of the time, I'm a clean twidget, not a wrench turner.

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54 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

The biggest complaint that builders have about architects is that they never swung a hammer or drove a screw.

I am not an architect (see above) but equally the biggest complaints that architects have about builders is that they can't be bothered to read the drawings. :D

21 minutes ago, Ajax said:

So far, I've never had to take a pile of parts to a mechanic or have a car towed to a shop. I recently replaced the transfer case in my 5-ton military truck. It weighs 680-ish lbs, if I recall.  My "boogie man" with respect to working on my marine diesel is the high pressure injection pump. I'll hand that off to a shop with the specialized equipment to get the fuel metering and synchronization right. I don't have the gear to do it.  I could probably do everything else.

But then it probably is a hobby for you! I don't know what it is like in the USA but I would guess that here 90% of sailors can't maintain their engine. I can only check levels, belt tension, replace the water pump impeller, re-tension a belt, change a filter and re-prime the fuel line and it might put me in the top 25th percentile!

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16 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

I am not an architect (see above) but equally the biggest complaints that architects have about builders is that they can't be bothered to read the drawings. :D

But then it probably is a hobby for you! I don't know what it is like in the USA but I would guess that here 90% of sailors can't maintain their engine. I can only check levels, belt tension, replace the water pump impeller, re-tension a belt, change a filter and re-prime the fuel line and it might put me in the top 25th percentile!

If Dylan and Mads represent the "fettling spectrum"  where Dylan is a zero and Mads is 10, I rank myself a 4 or 5.

Boat work is not a "hobby" for me, I simply can't afford to stroke a check every time the boat needs something. Like Dylan, I much prefer to sail but reality forces me to fix and maintain stuff.  I also have trust issues with marine workers. I feel safer when I make my own repairs most of the time.

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1 minute ago, Ajax said:

Boat work is not a "hobby" for me, I simply can't afford to stroke a check every time the boat needs something. Like Dylan, I much prefer to sail but reality forces me to fix and maintain stuff.  I also have trust issues with marine workers. I feel safer when I make my own repairs most of the time.

OK, I just imagined that the military truck was because you liked machinery!

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23 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

OK, I just imagined that the military truck was because you liked machinery!

I think I would enjoy the fettling more, if I had more time.  The military truck(s) are a mid-life crisis thing. I drove these during my military service and they take me back to a time in my life when I was relevant. ;)

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8 minutes ago, Ajax said:

I think I would enjoy the fettling more, if I had more time.  The military truck(s) are a mid-life crisis thing. I drove these during my military service and they take me back to a time in my life when I was relevant. ;)

"Relevancy" is completely overrated. The freedom of being, "irrelevant", is amazing.  I'm not sure I'll go full-on renouncing material desires and prejudices once I start cruising....

 

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My club’s launch turns 100 this year. And so does it’s monstrous Diesel.  Running @ 400 to 600 RPM works wonders in terms of engine longevity I guess... 

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On 10/16/2020 at 7:56 AM, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Uh-oh, the submarine guys are here... :ph34r:

(I still remember that line from the classic WW2 movie, “Das Boot” - the Nazi submariners are being hunted or something and have to lay low/be quiet on board...anyway this dialogue - to help illustrate, I think, one aspect of life aboard a sub, the boredom interspersed with sheer terror in times of war, anyway):

Guy picks boogers from his nose and flicks them at guy2.
Guy2: Eyyyy..... 
Booger guy: How about you take your nose hair, I take mine, we braid them together into beautiful art!” 

Movie was better with subtitles and rudimentary German from school.  Having a german immigrant as a dad helped too...  :)  Cousins brother on his wife's side was on a boomer in the 80's I think.  Met him once, seemed normal until the eating glass stories came out...  What say you boys??  Any truth??  <_<

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53 minutes ago, Ajax said:

I think I would enjoy the fettling more, if I had more time.  The military truck(s) are a mid-life crisis thing. I drove these during my military service and they take me back to a time in my life when I was relevant. ;)

We have a say for this in French : "Cemeteries are full of indispensable people".

Lot of people feel that some organisation / team could not function well without them onboard but the reality is that voids always end up being filled somehow! Thus the most important is to find a good void that you are happy to fill.

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7 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

We have a say for this in French : "Cemeteries are full of indispensable people".

Lot of people feel that some organisation / team could not function well without them onboard but the reality is that voids always end up being filled somehow! Thus the most important is to find a good void that you are happy to fill.

DsBq5XNWoAEy5D1.jpg

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8 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

or compare the coming of age ritual in the USA, where young men are expected to be modifying and rebuilding engines in their teens with a French outlook oriented around outdoor activities like cycling, skiing, climbing, dinghy sailing...

So this used to be the case.  It still is in some places, but that is a abroad brush.  I grew up middle class good neighborhood great school and they had an shop pace...  Wood shop in JR high school.  If you have ever seen the movie Pretty in Pink, well, that mechanics shop was in my HS.  This used to be normal(I am 50) and I feel that I have a pretty good grasp on most mechanical stuff and a good head for industrial tech even though I was never in post HS mechanics school.   So It's Not so much a rite of passage as it was just taught.  Yes every high school had a wrench club, but my school had over 650 people graduating in my class so 4K plus in the school, so the class options were very diverse ranging from art to theater to Industrial tech to sports to everything...  Now, Not so much.  Most school districts have been so stripped of $$ that they are lucky to field a football team.  We live in the same type of suburbia here in CO and the kids school did not have any industrial options and really, a wood shop in a fricking grade school nowdays??  HAHAHAH.  We did it to ourselves, the American "spirit" has been getting priced out of American schools for decades and we are loosing our intellectual edge.  

Oh, and Lots of kids do your 2nd paragraph stuff, it's just spread out across the country.  As an example.  Florida has the most ski clubs in the country...We in CO don't go to the beach so much(Well A basin) and people down south don't really go snowshoeing or play hockey.

Rant over

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Face it, everybody that loves and works on their own sailboats diesel auxiliary (I hate every car engine I ever owned and know nothing about them*), is part of a dying breed. 

We will all soon be extinct.

Electric is the future. 

This is the past, which I live in,.... 

 

 

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Electric is undoubtedly the future. The only question is, for the vast majority, whether it's 10 years or 20 years in the future.

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1 minute ago, IStream said:

Electric is undoubtedly the future. The only question is, for the vast majority, whether it's 10 years or 20 years in the future.

Might be. Be nice if it was. Not in the next 20 years though, if you want the functional equivalent of a diesel engine's power output, range and speed of refueling.

I'd absolutely *loathe* having to fire up a diesel gen set to run my workshop tools, or even worse, fire up an IC motor attached to each one (which is why factories used to run on lineshafts driven by a steam engine back in the day) so I fully appreciate the advent of electric motors. Got lots up to 25HP.

But it's not the motors, it's the support structure WRT dense energy storage and speed of recharge for boats. Worse than cars because not everyone parks their boat in a marina with shore power or only wants to go 10 miles round trip. Solve those and conversion to electric drives will happen really fast.

FKT

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Understood. My reasoning is that within the next decade, it's unlikely that there'll be any breakthrough battery/storage technologies that reach the market. However, I could easily see lithium or equivalent batteries dropping a lot in price. This would pull in the early adopters who would otherwise be budget-constrained. 

I think it's entirely possible that solid state or other high density + fast charging storage technologies could reach the market at reasonable prices within 20 years. Though this is harder to predict, there's a shit ton of R&D being done and lots of demand now that the first wave of electric cars, domestic solar storage, and other new applications for batteries are penetrating. The next order of magnitude improvement will pull in a big chunk of the market for gas and diesel, even if gas and diesel are currently almost two orders of magnitude ahead in terms of density. 

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15 minutes ago, IStream said:

Understood. My reasoning is that within the next decade, it's unlikely that there'll be any breakthrough battery/storage technologies that reach the market. However, I could easily see lithium or equivalent batteries dropping a lot in price. This would pull in the early adopters who would otherwise be budget-constrained. 

I think it's entirely possible that solid state or other high density + fast charging storage technologies could reach the market at reasonable prices within 20 years. Though this is harder to predict, there's a shit ton of R&D being done and lots of demand now that the first wave of electric cars, domestic solar storage, and other new applications for batteries are penetrating. The next order of magnitude improvement will pull in a big chunk of the market for gas and diesel, even if gas and diesel are currently almost two orders of magnitude ahead in terms of density. 

I would absolutely *love* it if that happened and I'd be one of the early adopters.

Thinking of putting 10kW of PV panels up ATM. I've got the space & money, just need to build the support infrastructure which *only purely by coincidence* may resemble a carport...

FKT

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Whoa, whoa.  I never said I was indispensable. I meant that I was useful. 

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1 minute ago, Ajax said:

Whoa, whoa.  I never said I was indispensable. I meant that I was useful. 

Years ago one of my clients had an employee who thought she was indispensable. He fired her for attitude. Said he'd rather pay us to do her job & train a replacement than tolerate someone who thought the business couldn't survive without her.

None of us are indispensable, it's merely a calculation of the level of aggravation needed to find a replacement or workaround once your perceived value is less than the aggravation coefficient you cause.

FKT

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17 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I would absolutely *love* it if that happened and I'd be one of the early adopters.

Thinking of putting 10kV of PV panels up ATM. I've got the space & money, just need to build the support infrastructure which *only purely by coincidence* may resemble a carport...

FKT

I've got 7KW of PV up on my roof. Up here at 48N and without any shading, that generates almost exactly 9MWh per year. Our household uses almost exactly 6MWh per year, so we generate 50% excess power. That's a good feeling.

Even better, with incentives I'm getting paid for 3X retail rate for every Watt I generate whether I use it or not but that gravy train is coming to an end this year. Going forward, they won't even pay wholesale. Any excess goes to the grid for free, so that's when I'm looking at upgrading the furnace to a ground sourced heat pump, possibly an electric vehicle, etc. I would consider a large battery storage system as well but I need the cost to come down significantly for it to make sense. In the meantime, I'd use the vehicle's battery pack to soak up my excess generation.

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1 hour ago, IStream said:

Electric is undoubtedly the future. The only question is, for the vast majority, whether it's 10 years or 20 years in the future.

It's here right now.

 

You just need a long extension cord.

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My boat has the same kind engine as my parents boat did when I was a kid. They sound the same and kind of smell the same. The clattery sound and faint whisp of diesel mean Summer cruising to me. That'll go the same way as the very dinosaurs burned to created motive power. 

 

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1 hour ago, IStream said:

I've got 7KW of PV up on my roof. Up here at 48N and without any shading, that generates almost exactly 9MWh per year. Our household uses almost exactly 6MWh per year, so we generate 50% excess power. That's a good feeling.

Even better, with incentives I'm getting paid for 3X retail rate for every Watt I generate whether I use it or not but that gravy train is coming to an end this year. Going forward, they won't even pay wholesale. Any excess goes to the grid for free, so that's when I'm looking at upgrading the furnace to a ground sourced heat pump, possibly an electric vehicle, etc. I would consider a large battery storage system as well but I need the cost to come down significantly for it to make sense. In the meantime, I'd use the vehicle's battery pack to soak up my excess generation.

No over-payments here any more so that incentive doesn't exist. The payment is pretty derisory. Only real point is if you can actually use the energy yourself.

Heat pump and electric hot water are 2 relatively easy ones.

Battery storage - some years back I got given a big industrial UPS, 3 phase in & out. The batteries were on the way out and it was simpler to buy a new UPS than fuck about replacing sealed lead-acids then dispose of the hazardous waste. My son was working at the place & told me it was mine if I turned up with my truck & rigging gear and took it away. So I did.

Not sure if I'll use it but it did strike me as an excellent start to an off-grid setup and still be able to use small (say up to 3HP) 3 phase electric motors. Assuming it still works when I get around to playing with it. Waiting for battery prices to drop and to find the elusive round tuit.. Har har.

FKT

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2 hours ago, IStream said:

I've got 7KW of PV up on my roof. Up here at 48N and without any shading, that generates almost exactly 9MWh per year. Our household uses almost exactly 6MWh per year, so we generate 50% excess power. That's a good feeling.

Even better, with incentives I'm getting paid for 3X retail rate for every Watt I generate whether I use it or not but that gravy train is coming to an end this year. Going forward, they won't even pay wholesale. Any excess goes to the grid for free, so that's when I'm looking at upgrading the furnace to a ground sourced heat pump, possibly an electric vehicle, etc. I would consider a large battery storage system as well but I need the cost to come down significantly for it to make sense. In the meantime, I'd use the vehicle's battery pack to soak up my excess generation.

The payback period for that kind of solar and ground source heat pump must be very long indeed.  I just can’t see dumping money into something like that.  I know someone up here who did a full roof panel install (can’t recall watts).  He owns a large company and is quite well off so the cost likely doesn’t matter  to him.  But he’ll likely never recoup the money in his lifetime, though it (I.e., installing them) is the right thing to do for sure if your electricity source is dirty.

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2 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Years ago one of my clients had an employee who thought she was indispensable. He fired her for attitude. Said he'd rather pay us to do her job & train a replacement than tolerate someone who thought the business couldn't survive without her.

None of us are indispensable, it's merely a calculation of the level of aggravation needed to find a replacement or workaround once your perceived value is less than the aggravation coefficient you cause.

FKT

I had a senior colleague who was fond of reminding us that the graveyards of the world are filled with people who thought they were indispensable

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19 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

The payback period for that kind of solar and ground source heat pump must be very long indeed.  I just can’t see dumping money into something like that.  I know someone up here who did a full roof panel install (can’t recall watts).  He owns a large company and is quite well off so the cost likely doesn’t matter  to him.  But he’ll likely never recoup the money in his lifetime, though it (I.e., installing them) is the right thing to do for sure if your electricity source is dirty.

The solar paid off in 5 years thanks to the incentives. It was $30K up front, defrayed to $20K with the tax incentives. The annual incentive payment of ~$3K added up to $15K over 5 years and the money I saved on electricity over that time covered the remaining $5K.

I'd only go for the heat pump if/when the furnace craps out but it's coming up on 15 years old now so it's only a matter of time. Yes, it would be much cheaper just to replace the furnace with another natural gas furnace but between the "free" power from the solar and the fact that I plan to die in this house, I've got time to recoup the extra up-front costs of the heat pump. 

 

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12 hours ago, Ajax said:

Whoa, whoa.  I never said I was indispensable. I meant that I was useful. 

Yes I got this, I just meant that we often overrate our importance and there would have been somebody else happy to drive this truck while you were sailing a boat!

I initially wrote this because your remark about "being relevant" rang bells in my mind. I am quite involved in some voluntary non-profit organisations which promote better buildings to help tackle the climate emergency. There were instances of burn out of people who were struggling to do work + family life + too much voluntary work. People often do voluntary work because they need to feel useful to a cause they value (whether that is saving lives at sea, helping homeless people or tackling the climate emergency). In my view, sometimes you just need to look at the positive impact you made however small it is in your mind. If I actually knew you, I am sure that I would be in a position to pinpoint useful actions you had. Actually, I can even make a start from your posts : "Reducing thrash by saving a perfectly serviceable boat from being dumped"

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11 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

still be able to use small (say up to 3HP) 3 phase electric motors

3HP is more than respectable for a home workshop!

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12 hours ago, Elegua said:

My boat has the same kind engine as my parents boat did when I was a kid. They sound the same and kind of smell the same. The clattery sound and faint whisp of diesel mean Summer cruising to me. That'll go the same way as the very dinosaurs burned to created motive power. 

 

 

I think of my two kids, 28 and 29. They've lived in cities or urban areas for the third of their life. They have both moved back to Maine an inevitable move (its hard to compromise on quality of life),  that I think that was accelerated by Covid.

Neither one has ever owned a car. I know many of their friends that we 'co-parented' that have made similar changes(a surprising # has moved back to Maine). 

They will need a vehicle (they use ours now :) ) But these kids don't use cars with the same regularity. They partnerup, ride share, use DD for parties. They don't commute. They know E-tech and many of them will no doubt look for E-vehicles (those that have cars are all E or E hybrid). 

Their generation will not be driving new fossil fueled car design. 

They all sail, some own boats. My son and I have a running joke about the ancient 2 stroke Yamaha on is dollar boat. I always check to see that they haven't done any maintenance on it, and that it hasn't left them stranded somewhere,...yet. He laughs and reports in the spring, "started first pull, Dad". I give up (he'll pay, one day). 

If anything, people (all gens) have returned to recreational sailing, part time. The majority move their boat by the auxiliary less than 40 miles away from the home mooring. 

Will we see an exodus of young people going cruising ala the Pardeys in the 70's? Really more a lifestyle than a recreation. I just don't see it. There are a few out there still but the numbers reported from sailing media, cruising forums, etc. show a decline of what was a small group compared to the rec. sailor. Sure Youtube has some stars but as a group for the sailing industry: 0. And of course, we still have a need of more range in our boats on this forum, but even that group is shrinking as the tech evolves. I doubt there is enough demand in the future to continue research in these old tools. 

The old obsolete engines will die one by one (mine will be the last due to my meticulous care,....). The parts will follow sealing their fate. New buyers/owners of these old boats will look at these huge metal machines with widened eyes. The supply side of the diesel tech pipeline of owners and mechanics is sucking air. 

My son could figure out fossil fueled engine maintenance but he has no interest. I think he knows it's over. I call him for more advice these days as today's tech keeps rolling forward. 

I'm sure not an opinated fortune teller, I'm just an observer. 

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13 hours ago, IStream said:

I've got 7KW of PV up on my roof. Up here at 48N and without any shading, that generates almost exactly 9MWh per year. Our household uses almost exactly 6MWh per year, so we generate 50% excess power. That's a good feeling.

Even better, with incentives I'm getting paid for 3X retail rate for every Watt I generate whether I use it or not but that gravy train is coming to an end this year. Going forward, they won't even pay wholesale. Any excess goes to the grid for free, so that's when I'm looking at upgrading the furnace to a ground sourced heat pump, possibly an electric vehicle, etc. I would consider a large battery storage system as well but I need the cost to come down significantly for it to make sense. In the meantime, I'd use the vehicle's battery pack to soak up my excess generation.

I've got 8.6KW on my roof, plus a Powerwall. Neener-neener!  ;)

I make 11MWh per year.  We consume more than you, mostly because I have not yet upgraded my 20+ year old HVAC system but we still generate a surplus every year. I have enough excess to charge an EV and I'll shift to one when my Subaru dies in about 4-5 years. When I upgrade the HVAC we'll have a much larger surplus.

For every MWh I generate, I earn an SREC (Solar Renewable Energy Certificate) which is sold to utilities in a market. The going rate in my state right now, is $72-ish, so practically every month, I get a deposit for around $72 bucks. We roll this and the annual surplus check into our payment for the solar array.

We love, love, love the Powerwall.  Storm rolls through, trees come down across power lines but our power stays on. We're on a well for water so that's important. No generator to drag out of the shed, no ethanol gasoline to clog up the generator, no oil changes, no maintenance. Just "click" and the lights are on.

The only time we ever pull from the grid is when we run the HVAC or run very high current appliances all at once.

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7 minutes ago, Ajax said:

I've got 8.6KW on my roof, plus a Powerwall. Neener-neener!  ;)

I make 11MWh per year.  We consume more than you, mostly because I have not yet upgraded my 20+ year old HVAC system but we still generate a surplus every year. I have enough excess to charge an EV and I'll shift to one when my Subaru dies in about 4-5 years. When I upgrade the HVAC we'll have a much larger surplus.

For every MWh I generate, I earn an SREC (Solar Renewable Energy Certificate) which is sold to utilities in a market. The going rate in my state right now, is $72-ish, so practically every month, I get a deposit for around $72 bucks. We roll this and the annual surplus check into our payment for the solar array.

We love, love, love the Powerwall.  Storm rolls through, trees come down across power lines but our power stays on. We're on a well for water so that's important. No generator to drag out of the shed, no ethanol gasoline to clog up the generator, no oil changes, no maintenance. Just "click" and the lights are on.

The only time we ever pull from the grid is when we run the HVAC or run very high current appliances all at once.

Nice.

It would be super-easy to add a powerwall or equivalent to our house but we just don't lose power that often. However, I like the idea of being as grid-independent as I can so when I do eventually add storage, I want to set it up so I can use the panels as a microgrid.

In the ultimate configuration, I figure that with ~100KWh of storage (equivalent to a week of energy use) I could tolerate low/no solar output during poor weather and still go about 9 months out of the year without any grid draw. That's why I want the cost of storage to drop or, even better, have a bidirectional connection to an electric vehicle along with a "day tank" (smaller battery or tanked electric hot water heater as a dump load) in the house to capture energy during the day when the vehicle is in use. 

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4 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

 

I think of my two kids, 28 and 29. They've lived in cities or urban areas for the third of their life. They have both moved back to Maine an inevitable move (its hard to compromise on quality of life),  that I think that was accelerated by Covid.

Neither one has ever owned a car. I know many of their friends that we 'co-parented' that have made similar changes(a surprising # has moved back to Maine). 

They will need a vehicle (they use ours now :) ) But these kids don't use cars with the same regularity. They partnerup, ride share, use DD for parties. They don't commute. They know E-tech and many of them will no doubt look for E-vehicles (those that have cars are all E or E hybrid). 

Their generation will not be driving new fossil fueled car design. 

They all sail, some own boats. My son and I have a running joke about the ancient 2 stroke Yamaha on is dollar boat. I always check to see that they haven't done any maintenance on it, and that it hasn't left them stranded somewhere,...yet. He laughs and reports in the spring, "started first pull, Dad". I give up (he'll pay, one day). 

If anything, people (all gens) have returned to recreational sailing, part time. The majority move their boat by the auxiliary less than 40 miles away from the home mooring. 

Will we see an exodus of young people going cruising ala the Pardeys in the 70's? Really more a lifestyle than a recreation. I just don't see it. There are a few out there still but the numbers reported from sailing media, cruising forums, etc. show a decline of what was a small group compared to the rec. sailor. Sure Youtube has some stars but as a group for the sailing industry: 0. And of course, we still have a need of more range in our boats on this forum, but even that group is shrinking as the tech evolves. I doubt there is enough demand in the future to continue research in these old tools. 

The old obsolete engines will die one by one (mine will be the last due to my meticulous care,....). The parts will follow sealing their fate. New buyers/owners of these old boats will look at these huge metal machines with widened eyes. The supply side of the diesel tech pipeline of owners and mechanics is sucking air. 

My son could figure out fossil fueled engine maintenance but he has no interest. I think he knows it's over. I call him for more advice these days as today's tech keeps rolling forward. 

I'm sure not an opinated fortune teller, I'm just an observer. 

Our kids are very different than we are. They grew up in a very different world. When I look at what is being handed over to them, I feel a bit ashamed at being such a bad steward. 

My kids are just slightly behind yours at 23 and 22. They grew up in different parts of Asia until HS so they are city kids to a certain extent but used to safe public spaces and efficient public services /transport. When they came to US for HS it was to California, so culturally they would probably identify as California kids.  My daughter is not interested in driving or cars - still doesn't have her license.   She is the Uber queen.  My son on the other hand is a good caretaker of a practical car he researched and bought himself and he is adept at DIY'ing and maintaining things.  He was able to sell his El Toro back to the original owner for the same price he bought it after he aged out. They both spent most Summers in Maine with their grandparents, working outside and with boats.  

My son has the sailing bug; my daughter not so much. Sailboats are something she does with her dad. He got the sailing bug early and enjoyed some tough sailing programs in Asia that I wondered if they might be a bit much for him. Today he heads the sailing club at his University and teaches at a relatively well know sailing program in the SFO area.  We'll do stuff like sail out into the Gulf of Maine for 24hrs to see how far we get. Sailing will be a part of his life forever, but not hers. 

  

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9 hours ago, Panoramix said:

3HP is more than respectable for a home workshop!

Maybe for your home workshop. Not for mine.

Small lathe is 3HP. Big lathe is 7.5HP. The baby Austrian one I don't count.

Small horizontal boring mill 3HP 3 speed Dahlander wound motor. Big HBM 7.5HP.

Etc. All 3 phase. A ton more machine tools (actually about 25 tonnes more in fact).

FKT

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1 hour ago, Elegua said:

Our kids are very different than we are. They grew up in a very different world. When I look at what is being handed over to them, I feel a bit ashamed at being such a bad steward. 

My kids are just slightly behind yours at 23 and 22. They grew up in different parts of Asia until HS so they are city kids to a certain extent but used to safe public spaces and efficient public services /transport. When they came to US for HS it was to California, so culturally they would probably identify as California kids.  My daughter is not interested in driving or cars - still doesn't have her license.   She is the Uber queen.  My son on the other hand is a good caretaker of a practical car he researched and bought himself and he is adept at DIY'ing and maintaining things.  He was able to sell his El Toro back to the original owner for the same price he bought it after he aged out. They both spent most Summers in Maine with their grandparents, working outside and with boats.  

My son has the sailing bug; my daughter not so much. Sailboats are something she does with her dad. He got the sailing bug early and enjoyed some tough sailing programs in Asia that I wondered if they might be a bit much for him. Today he heads the sailing club at his University and teaches at a relatively well know sailing program in the SFO area.  We'll do stuff like sail out into the Gulf of Maine for 24hrs to see how far we get. Sailing will be a part of his life forever, but not hers. 

  

I taught both kids to drive a stick shift and my son to change oil and plugs and rotate tires. For my daughter I just made sure her AAA membership was up to date but that driving skill sure came in handy when she was the only one of her friends who could drive a rental car in Ireland, England and South Africa, including the guys. She doesn’t know how to change fuel filters and water pump impellers or bleed injectors on the boat but I know her husband does. Both kids long since passed up their mom and dad in the sailing skills department and my son is a junior and high school sailing instructor and charter boat crew. I’ve ruined them well. 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, kinardly said:

I taught both kids to drive a stick shift and my son to change oil and plugs and rotate tires. For my daughter I just made sure her AAA membership was up to date but that driving skill sure came in handy when she was the only one of her friends who could drive a rental car in Ireland, England and South Africa, including the guys. She doesn’t know how to change fuel filters and water pump impellers or bleed injectors on the boat but I know her husband does. Both kids long since passed up their mom and dad in the sailing skills department and my son is a junior and high school sailing instructor and charter boat crew. I’ve ruined them well. 

 

 

 

Well done! I still couldn't get my kids (or my wife) over the stick-shift hurdle. But a Subaru STi is perhaps not the easiest to learn on. I tried! 

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12 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Well done! I still couldn't get my kids (or my wife) over the stick-shift hurdle. But a Subaru STi is perhaps not the easiest to learn on. I tried! 

I owned my last stick-shift for 21 years. My wife never drove it, even though I offered to teach her for free. Go figure.

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16 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I owned my last stick-shift for 21 years. My wife never drove it, even though I offered to teach her for free. Go figure.

You should have offered to do it for $10,000, but today and today only, $50. Then she would HAVE TO HAVE IT!  That's the way the female mind (apparently) works. :P

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Maybe for your home workshop. Not for mine.

Small lathe is 3HP. Big lathe is 7.5HP. The baby Austrian one I don't count.

Small horizontal boring mill 3HP 3 speed Dahlander wound motor. Big HBM 7.5HP.

Etc. All 3 phase. A ton more machine tools (actually about 25 tonnes more in fact).

FKT

FKT, from what little we know about you, I'm pretty damn sure that you don't have the average "home workshop"...

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3 phase power eliminates any kidding oneself about the "home" aspect.

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34 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

3 phase power eliminates any kidding oneself about the "home" aspect.

Oh, I’ve been to some West Vancouver “palaces” that have 3 phase power, and banks of (just) lighting control panels...

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40 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Oh, I’ve been to some West Vancouver “palaces” that have 3 phase power, and banks of (just) lighting control panels...

But do they have five horizontal boring machines in their living rooms?

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Vancouver not Tasmania...

I really think FKT needs to go solar steam and put in a overhead drive line to run everything. That would actually be pretty cool.

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11 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Vancouver not Tasmania...

I really think FKT needs to go solar steam and put in a overhead drive line to run everything. That would actually be pretty cool.

6" leather belts running off a shaft?

Image.aspx?id=65030

 

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

3 phase power eliminates any kidding oneself about the "home" aspect.

Maybe in the benighted 3rd World where you live. Here, 3 phase power to domestic dwellings, while not exactly common, is far from rare. Been the supply to the last 3 houses I've owned going back 30 years. I originally got mine installed to run a big heat pump. At least, that was what I told the electricity company. Nobody was rude enough to ask why I needed 300A at 415V though.

FKT

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51 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

But do they have five horizontal boring machines in their living rooms?

Close - I do still have a Colchester Chipmaster lathe in the back room but might relocate it soon.

As for steam engines & line shafts - NFW. I use my tools to make other stuff, not interested in a museum. Currently using the Bridgeport mill as a glorified overhead router with power feed and the baby Austrian mill to run router bits for a rounding over operation on native timber. The mess is phenomenal because I'm too lazy to move the dust collector from over where the woodworking gear is located.

FKT

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Close - I do still have a Colchester Chipmaster lathe in the back room but might relocate it soon.

As for steam engines & line shafts - NFW. I use my tools to make other stuff, not interested in a museum. Currently using the Bridgeport mill as a glorified overhead router with power feed and the baby Austrian mill to run router bits for a rounding over operation on native timber. The mess is phenomenal because I'm too lazy to move the dust collector from over where the woodworking gear is located.

FKT

That line shaft was a relic, but still in production when I was shooting pro, say 1985. The flour mills had no metal parts to spark, so the line shafts and the flour boxes were all non-magnetic. I wish I could find some of those shots. Going floor to floor on a manlift, with full camera gear...interesting.

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

3 phase power eliminates any kidding oneself about the "home" aspect.

This is way off from Dylan’s boat thread!

VFDs make it easy to run 3 phase motors on single phase supply. My baby Austrian lathe (maybe the same one that FKT says is too small to count) has a 1.5hp 3 phase motor that I run off of a 120v/30amp circuit. 

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21 minutes ago, Alex W said:

This is way off from Dylan’s boat thread!

VFDs make it easy to run 3 phase motors on single phase supply. My baby Austrian lathe (maybe the same one that FKT says is too small to count) has a 1.5hp 3 phase motor that I run off of a 120v/30amp circuit. 

Emco Maximat 11 by any chance?

Quite right about VFD's - up to a size point which is somewhere between 3 & 5 HP unless you've a pretty substantial single phase supply. Especially for you poor saps on 110V single phase.

On boat stuff I seriously considered building my own electric anchor winch using a VFD to drive it but so far it's remained a thought exercise.

FKT

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38 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

That line shaft was a relic, but still in production when I was shooting pro, say 1985. The flour mills had no metal parts to spark, so the line shafts and the flour boxes were all non-magnetic. I wish I could find some of those shots. Going floor to floor on a manlift, with full camera gear...interesting.

There's a man with a YouTube channel - Dave Richards IIRC - who has a full steam fired lineshaft machine shop.

FKT

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53 minutes ago, Alex W said:

This is way off from Dylan’s boat thread!

Isn’t that one of the points of this whole crazy thread?

Dylan, what say ye?  About fettling with single phase vs. three phase?  Or any phase, for that matter?  (Did anyone know that there was once, long ago, two phase power in parts of the US East coast?)

Good on ya for not giving a damn about this, and being out sailing instead! :-)

But should you be so inclined toward electrical engineering...ElectroBOOM is your man!  Great channel.  Even if you don’t understand a damn thing he’s talking about, he’s fun to listen to - quite comedic!

 

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Emco Maximat 11 by any chance?

I have a Compact 10, which is the Super 11 missing many features (gearbox and power cross feed being the big ones).  Works great for me and takes up a lot less space than my old South Bend 9A. 

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

There's a man with a YouTube channel - Dave Richards IIRC - who has a full steam fired lineshaft machine shop.

FKT

I'd want mine powered by a water wheel like the one I described here some time ago.

Amazingly mellow sounds compared to the scream of electric tools.

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48 minutes ago, Alex W said:

I have a Compact 10, which is the Super 11 missing many features (gearbox and power cross feed being the big ones).  Works great for me and takes up a lot less space than my old South Bend 9A. 

I've got the Maximat 11. Really nice machines, Emcos, superb build quality. Bit lightweight but capable of very fine accuracy. Mine is metric which is really useful for thread cutting metric pitches, my other lathes have inch lead screws.

FKT

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11 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Maybe for your home workshop. Not for mine.

Small lathe is 3HP. Big lathe is 7.5HP. The baby Austrian one I don't count.

Small horizontal boring mill 3HP 3 speed Dahlander wound motor. Big HBM 7.5HP.

Etc. All 3 phase. A ton more machine tools (actually about 25 tonnes more in fact).

FKT

Good for you, you have lot of toys but that's a bit beyond the scope of what most people would call a home workshop!

My biggest machine is my 200mm wide wood planer-jointer, I think I installed a 1.5kW motor on it (about 2HP) which is good enough to plane some oak if you are not too greedy. It already makes a lot of racket, I don't want to test further the tolerance of my neighbours with a 400mm planer. I used to work for a glulam manufacturer where there was a 2m wide planer (nearly 7 feet), now you are talking big machinery, when they were planing some big beam, the whole building was humming.

I haven't touched a metal lathe since I left school but I must admit that these small chinese "mini lathe" (1 HP) are tempting... I just haven't yet found a project to justify in my head buying one!

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8 hours ago, Alex W said:

This is way off from Dylan’s boat thread!

This is a thread for an owner that hates 'fettlin'. You guys have put Dylan in a coma. 

 

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7 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I'd want mine powered by a water wheel like the one I described here some time ago.

Amazingly mellow sounds compared to the scream of electric tools.

You should check out the Harry Bryan stuff on Off Center Harbor - a lot of his shop is human powered. Power tools adapted to use springs/bicycle parts/gravity to function. It's off-grid so there is some engine/belt driven stuff as well. He has a saw mill powered by a Chevy 6 cylinder engine.

https://www.offcenterharbor.com/videos/harry-bryans-off-grid-shop-building-boats/

 

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4 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

This is a thread for an owner that hates 'fettlin'. You guys have put Dylan in a coma. 

 

I confess that I was out sailing today rather than following this thread

 

The Taylor heater was on all day

 

it is lovely to have a warm dry boat

 

and .....

 

Thread Drift is a good thing

 

D

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Elektrical engines in hp, are you all that old?

120v single fase? If you love amps and heavy cables, thats a way to go.

Even where i live 3phase is common. Unfortunatly it is not the kind i want. I got 3x230v not 3x400v. I dont like starting a bigger engine or one with load on in delta, my breakers agree unfortunalty as well.

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