Schoonerman

Santa Cruz 27 Plans/Lines/Drawings?

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We're asking the SA crowd if anyone has drawings/lines/takeoffs of the 27?  Reached out to Bill Lee yesterday and he has nothing. I thought I'd see if anyone here can't point the way?
 
Instructor, racer and Naval Architect Roberto G is helping us redesign the venerable Santa Cruz 27 deck. We (Spinnaker Sailing - SF) have been looking literally for YEARS for a boat that can replace the 27 to teach the ASA 104 Basic Coastal Cruising on. We replaced all of our aging Santana 22's with the Andrew's 21's for the basic level classes but we need to replace the SC 27's as they are pretty difficult to teach docking, etc on as the engine layout is funky and truth be told the cockpit design is pretty dated. We tried some lift keel boats, considered the M24 (too fragile) and some other options that fit the affordability requirement...nada.
 
The SC27 is a well built boat, light, fast and a delight to sail and as a bonus, we own 3 of them. Being an ultralight means you can put a much smaller outboard on it and it powers like a tugboat! We're trying to devise electric options for this but nothing is there for commercial use...quite yet.
 
Roberto has come up with a clean modern design that meets our criteria
- Larger Cockpit
- Open Transom for outboard motor operation/ease
- Small Cuddy Cabin. Will still sleep 4 !
 
 

Screenshot from 2020-09-20 07-27-41.png

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If you have three boats, why not just measure everything?  Am I missing something?

The design above looks like the transom is being extended.  Seems like overkill - there are a lot of open transom SC 27's.  An open transom would solve most of your engine handling problems.  I agree that hanging over the stern to operate throttle and gears is non-ideal.

An even simpler and cheaper solution would be to purchase outboards with remote control, and find a small morse control to put on the cockpit sidewalls.  Again, your problems handling the engine around the dock are gone, and you can use the money you save to buy more sails, which SC 27's need a lot of.  Your boats can still compete in the nationals too.

https://www.go2marine.com/single-lever-side-mount-sail-boat-engine-control-ch2100

Actually, thanks for posting this, doing the research has made me realize how easy it would be to convert my SC 27 to remote control:

https://www.sailnet.com/threads/adding-remote-control-to-tohatsu-6hp.171362/

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6 hp outboard would be huge on an sc27. Are you planning on wakeboarding behind it? 

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2 hours ago, Schoonerman said:
We're asking the SA crowd if anyone has drawings/lines/takeoffs of the 27?  Reached out to Bill Lee yesterday and he has nothing. I thought I'd see if anyone here can't point the way?
 
Instructor, racer and Naval Architect Roberto G is helping us redesign the venerable Santa Cruz 27 deck. We (Spinnaker Sailing - SF) have been looking literally for YEARS for a boat that can replace the 27 to teach the ASA 104 Basic Coastal Cruising on. We replaced all of our aging Santana 22's with the Andrew's 21's for the basic level classes but we need to replace the SC 27's as they are pretty difficult to teach docking, etc on as the engine layout is funky and truth be told the cockpit design is pretty dated. We tried some lift keel boats, considered the M24 (too fragile) and some other options that fit the affordability requirement...nada.
 
The SC27 is a well built boat, light, fast and a delight to sail and as a bonus, we own 3 of them. Being an ultralight means you can put a much smaller outboard on it and it powers like a tugboat! We're trying to devise electric options for this but nothing is there for commercial use...quite yet.
 
Roberto has come up with a clean modern design that meets our criteria
- Larger Cockpit
- Open Transom for outboard motor operation/ease
- Small Cuddy Cabin. Will still sleep 4 !
 
 

Screenshot from 2020-09-20 07-27-41.png

Looks sweet!!! 

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3 hours ago, Schoonerman said:
 
- Small Cuddy Cabin. Will still sleep 4 !
 

You could have a career in writing sailboat brochures.  Or politics.

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The worst thing about SC27 is the cockpit. I always wished mine had a cockpit like in this drawing!

The second worst thing was the access to the outboard.

The third was the lack of a way to get back aboard that does not require the person in the water to be quite strong and flexible.

I don't think it will be necessary to shorten the coachroof nor alter the interior. Just cut away all the existing winch islands aft, and replace with that style cockpit, including the open transom. Will make the interior a lot better too, with sufficient space to get into those pipe berths aft.

That style deck/cockpit will stiffen the boat too.

I would make a deck level thwart to hold the top of the rudder, and to provide necessary stiffness for the aft quarters. The full transom is very important to structure as is. I think it will be easy to step over the thwart to access the outboard, and will give much needed hand hold for brining a person back onboard.

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1 hour ago, IMR said:

6 hp outboard would be huge on an sc27. Are you planning on wakeboarding behind it? 

I believe that is ASA 105 basic wakeboarding.

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Another option would be to hire an industrial 3D scanning company to come out and scan all three of your boats. Then you need a strategy to reduce the resulting point cloud down to a 3D model. Then you can compare the boats to see how much variation there is an evaluate whether you can build a single mold for the new deck or if each boat is going to need custom work.

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I'm a primative mammal but on my trimaran the outboard controls were very difficult to reach.  So I took a length of pvc tube and linked it to a piece of soft rubber hose then married it all to the throttle handle with a couple stainless hose clamps.  I glued a tennis ball on the end for aesthetics and, voila, a very functional and cheap throttle handle extension.  I used a piece of g-10 and some string to make the shifter easier to reach.  I 'm mostly a sail on and off the dock kind of simian but on those few occasions where a motor is needed the extensions make a huge difference and cost a few pesos and about 1/2 hour of work.  Seems a lot easier than chopping up the boat?

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3 hours ago, carcrash said:

The worst thing about SC27 is the cockpit. I always wished mine had a cockpit like in this drawing!

The second worst thing was the access to the outboard.

The third was the lack of a way to get back aboard that does not require the person in the water to be quite strong and flexible.

I don't think it will be necessary to shorten the coachroof nor alter the interior. Just cut away all the existing winch islands aft, and replace with that style cockpit, including the open transom. Will make the interior a lot better too, with sufficient space to get into those pipe berths aft.

That style deck/cockpit will stiffen the boat too.

I would make a deck level thwart to hold the top of the rudder, and to provide necessary stiffness for the aft quarters. The full transom is very important to structure as is. I think it will be easy to step over the thwart to access the outboard, and will give much needed hand hold for brining a person back onboard.

Pretty much agree with you. Although, for singlehanded stuff I find the cockpit ok since I do not worry about hiking when sailing SH'd. Completely agree about not shortening the cabin, just removing the winch islands. I did some measurements once years ago and by widening the cockpit footwell a few inches and bringing the deck level surface to meet it (i.e., eliminate the seats) you would actually increase the q-berth volume nicely. If $$ did not matter I might have done something  like this. And yes to the thwart for the upper rudder post bearing (think Olson 25). 

Looking at the proposed concept I wonder where on that reduced cabin the mast will land as it looks like the coach roof has also been pushed forward some. 

Be fun to see the results if this actually gets done.

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1 hour ago, See Level said:

Why change the house?

The cabin trunk makes for narrow side decks which makes crew hiking difficult, slow and painful. Anything done to widen the side decks is a win. Bigly.

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7 hours ago, IMR said:

6 hp outboard would be huge on an sc27. Are you planning on wakeboarding behind it? 

Deliveries to distant regattas will go much quicker with the 6.  We'll probably get a 2.5 as well to get from the dock to the start line.  This two-engine configuration seems to be pretty much standard practice with SC 27's around here.  Our longest regatta deliveries are up to 40 miles often in zero wind.

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40 miles, that’s 40 minutes with a trailer. 

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52 minutes ago, IMR said:

40 miles, that’s 40 minutes with a trailer. 

And three or four hours to de-rig and re-rig, rinse salt off the trailer, tune the rig before the first race etc.  We don't have a gin pole yet either, so we need to go somewhere with a mast tower.  But yes, we will be using the trailer to get to some regattas.  The ones we can't use the trailer for (no facilities for launching, or have to put the trailer on a ferry for $$$$) are the ones 40 miles away.  There are also some current passes to get through where we need the speed.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather be on the boat motoring through some of the most beautiful scenery around enjoying a frosty beverage than driving down the highway.  Based on experience you get to sail about 30-40% of the time, too.

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US Sailing might have .off files for the boat.  Contact the offshore office.  I'm not sure they would be willing to give them to you, but it might help to have Bill's permission.  They also might be able to just give you the hull/deck joint offsets.

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Point cloud scanning is remarkably cheap these days. We had a guy do a ~50 or 60' hull for a few thousand $.

But do you need the hull shape to design a new deck and cockpit? A few key measurements might be sufficient (beam at several points gives you a deck edge), measure depth of the cockpit and crawl under the cockpit to see what the clearance to the hull is. 

I'd be tempted to just cut off a deck and build a mockup with cheap ply until you were happy with it, but of course starting with some "approximate" concept level drawings as a starting point. Nothing beats a full size deck mockup in determining where the winch goes and that block is in the way etc etc.

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12 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Point cloud scanning is remarkably cheap these days. We had a guy do a ~50 or 60' hull for a few thousand $.

But do you need the hull shape to design a new deck and cockpit? A few key measurements might be sufficient (beam at several points gives you a deck edge), measure depth of the cockpit and crawl under the cockpit to see what the clearance to the hull is. 

I'd be tempted to just cut off a deck and build a mockup with cheap ply until you were happy with it, but of course starting with some "approximate" concept level drawings as a starting point. Nothing beats a full size deck mockup in determining where the winch goes and that block is in the way etc etc.

This, had a guy from the oil fields in Kerns Co do some stuff for me 6 years ago, very quick and accurate, but......

I’d be tempted to leave a deck perimeter in place(as much as you can) cut the middle out, build it up with plywood (directly on the hull) until you are happy with everything and then pull the mold off this plywood deck/original deck plug.  Not sure what the hull/deck joint looks like but you could leave that area and scarf the old and new together on the flat part inboard of the gunwhale. (done well with the right tapers should not be much extra finishing) and also the quality of the deck mold is not ‘that’ important (as you only have 3 decks to make) 

 

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The Olson 30 class Projects page http://www.olson30.org/projects/ has two interesting approaches, Spar Wars and Scourge with some pictures.  Leave everything up to the back of the cabin house, scarf-tie in new aft deck.  You don't need f-book to view the pictures.

SC27's are great boats but they might be better left "class legal" for resale value.  I have no idea on values or current class demand.

If you move forward modifying the SC27's it sounds like a cool project and please keep us updated on your progress.

 

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I sail on SF Bay and have seen a lot of Santa Cruz 27's and I've never seen one with an opened-up transom. Moore 24's, yes...but not the SC 27.

I would agree with suggestions to NOT butcher up a couple of existing SC 27's, but rather to take lines off of them and build out new boats. There aren't that many SC 27's, Bill only made about 100, so please don't shrink the class.

You know, Bill sold the molds to a company in the midwest, 20 years ago, they were going to build more of them. I'm sure Bill has their address. I think the company built two boats if I remember rightly and they might not have chainsawed the molds. I bet $500 and a trip to Minnesota, or wherever it was, might scare up hull and deck molds.

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2 hours ago, yoyo said:

The Olson 30 class Projects page http://www.olson30.org/projects/ has two interesting approaches, Spar Wars and Scourge with some pictures.  Leave everything up to the back of the cabin house, scarf-tie in new aft deck.  You don't need f-book to view the pictures.

SC27's are great boats but they might be better left "class legal" for resale value.  I have no idea on values or current class demand.

If you move forward modifying the SC27's it sounds like a cool project and please keep us updated on your progress.

 

It's hard to justify keeping a boat with no class activities class legal.  There's a purpose for the boats in question.  There are probably any number of SC27's sitting in fields, yards and slips just rotting away with zero life left.  

That being said, when I bought my Capri 25 4 years ago, OD racing wasn't really a consideration.  But as I re-fit and modified the boat I made sure it was all class legal "just in case".  Well, that "just in case" will probably happen in 2021. 

Boats are awesome.  Boat projects are awesome.  And making use of old boats is awesome.  I don't see anyone complaining that Ron Moore has done something similar to an Express 27.

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1 hour ago, Swimsailor said:

It's hard to justify keeping a boat with no class activities class legal.  There's a purpose for the boats in question.  There are probably any number of SC27's sitting in fields, yards and slips just rotting away with zero life left.  

That being said, when I bought my Capri 25 4 years ago, OD racing wasn't really a consideration.  But as I re-fit and modified the boat I made sure it was all class legal "just in case".  Well, that "just in case" will probably happen in 2021. 

Boats are awesome.  Boat projects are awesome.  And making use of old boats is awesome.  I don't see anyone complaining that Ron Moore has done something similar to an Express 27.

Wrong.  The class held a Nationals regatta a couple of weekends ago at Santa Cruz Yacht Club.  Nine boats showed up in spite of covid.  We would have brought our boat down from the PNW but for covid and the border being shut.  

The class association is quite active.  You can learn about it here: https://www.sc27.org/ 

SC 27s are in heavy demand in the PNW because they are ideal for the R2AK.  As soon as one comes up they are snapped up, especially one in decent shape.  We had a lot of trouble finding one, and ended up resurrecting a local one that had a pile of issues (bulkheads, mast step, deck saturated in a few places).  It still needs more work but at least we have it sailing.

I am only aware of one in my local area which is a write-off - the owner parked it on the trailer for 20 years with no tarp and the entire deck is saturated, and all the wood in the interior is rotted.  It could still be saved because the hull is fine, but the amount of work is prohibitive.

These boats are an absolute riot to sail.  They reach like a 34' boat, they have a huge kite for downwind in light air.  Ours has an aftermarket larger rudder and after spending last winter fairing it and new rudder bearings the boat steers like it is on rails.  The cockpit looks uncomfortable but it really isn't.   I sat on the rail on Sunday on my boat upwind and even my aging bones can fit easily under the lifelines.  The narrow side decks actually make hiking more comfortable because you can use the edge of the cabin to support your back.  The toe rails are a problem but we have a solution for that. 

I can see why they are so much fun to sail to Hawaii.  Like my previous boat, a Dash 34, the kts/$ and fun/$ ratio on these boats is high.  In the picture, from Sunday's race, we are keeping up with a Ross 930 on a reach.

SC27.jpg

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23 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

Wrong.  The class held a Nationals regatta a couple of weekends ago at Santa Cruz Yacht Club.  Nine boats showed up in spite of covid.  We would have brought our boat down from the PNW but for covid and the border being shut.  

The class association is quite active.  You can learn about it here: https://www.sc27.org/ 

SC 27s are in heavy demand in the PNW because they are ideal for the R2AK.  As soon as one comes up they are snapped up, especially one in decent shape.  We had a lot of trouble finding one, and ended up resurrecting a local one that had a pile of issues (bulkheads, mast step, deck saturated in a few places).  It still needs more work but at least we have it sailing.

I am only aware of one in my local area which is a write-off - the owner parked it on the trailer for 20 years with no tarp and the entire deck is saturated, and all the wood in the interior is rotted.  It could still be saved because the hull is fine, but the amount of work is prohibitive.

These boats are an absolute riot to sail.  They reach like a 34' boat, they have a huge kite for downwind in light air.  Ours has an aftermarket larger rudder and after spending last winter fairing it and new rudder bearings the boat steers like it is on rails.  The cockpit looks uncomfortable but it really isn't.   I sat on the rail on Sunday on my boat upwind and even my aging bones can fit easily under the lifelines.  The narrow side decks actually make hiking more comfortable because you can use the edge of the cabin to support your back.  The toe rails are a problem but we have a solution for that. 

I can see why they are so much fun to sail to Hawaii.  Like my previous boat, a Dash 34, the kts/$ and fun/$ ratio on these boats is high.  In the picture, from Sunday's race, we are keeping up with a Ross 930 on a reach.

SC27.jpg

All right, there you go!

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1 hour ago, Rain Man said:

 the entire deck is saturated, and all the wood in the interior is rotted.  It could still be saved because the hull is fine, but the amount of work is prohibitive.

hmmmm…. maybe there's an opportunity there.  See if the OP wants to trade that one for one of the current three he has.  I mean, he's planning to cut off the deck and nuke the interior anyway, so… win-win.  He gets a donor-hull, the PNW gets to preserve a class-legal boat.

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13 minutes ago, sledracr said:

hmmmm…. maybe there's an opportunity there.  See if the OP wants to trade that one for one of the current three he has.  I mean, he's planning to cut off the deck and nuke the interior anyway, so… win-win.  He gets a donor-hull, the PNW gets to preserve a class-legal boat.

The owner of that boat might let it go for free to someone who will resurrect it.  He took it pretty hard when we looked it over and explained to him what state it was in.  He will have needed some time to get over what we told him.  I got several stings from the wasps living inside it.  The trailer is in bad shape too, it will take some work just to move it from where it is.

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7 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

It's hard to justify keeping a boat with no class activities class legal.  There's a purpose for the boats in question.  There are probably any number of SC27's sitting in fields, yards and slips just rotting away with zero life left.  

That being said, when I bought my Capri 25 4 years ago, OD racing wasn't really a consideration.  But as I re-fit and modified the boat I made sure it was all class legal "just in case".  Well, that "just in case" will probably happen in 2021. 

Boats are awesome.  Boat projects are awesome.  And making use of old boats is awesome.  I don't see anyone complaining that Ron Moore has done something similar to an Express 27.

*Ron Moore  Terry Alsberg

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There are a dozen boats in Hawaii, too and they get used. My old SC27. Ankle Biter is there and I know she gets sailed.

 

Anyway, I remembered the name of the company that bought the SC27 molds.  Alar Yachts.

 

 
Businesses
Sailboats, (with or without engine) Catamarans, Trimarans
Type/Status
Out of Business (Jun 09, 1988 - Dec 02, 2003)
Contact
BUCK KINNAN
Address
10327 NORTH SHORE DR, DULUTH, MN USA
Phone
+1 218-525-6596

ALAR YACHTS INC boats

 

Call him up, maybe the molds are still in one (two) piece_s).

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On 9/22/2020 at 12:09 PM, IMR said:

6 hp outboard would be huge on an sc27. Are you planning on wakeboarding behind it? 

You can go a comfortable speed with the motor barely above idle, not howling, great for long deliveries. That being said, it's a heavy mofo to take off and put on. Once I get the 3.5 2stroke going, the big motor is going into the garage. Btw, anyone know where I can find a set of toerails? The p/o removed them for some reason, and we'd like to put a section on the bow at least.

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What's wrong with the J/80 for this?  Seems to work for J World, OCSC had a couple, etc.  Time to move on, not screw up the SC27's.

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9 hours ago, BobJ said:

What's wrong with the J/80 for this?  Seems to work for J World, OCSC had a couple, etc.  Time to move on, not screw up the SC27's.

Huge demand for SC27's right?  Anyone here offering to buy the boats from the OP for a price that makes sense for them?   Bueller...Bueller

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10 hours ago, Timo42 said:

Btw, anyone know where I can find a set of toerails?

This company has a wide range of options:

https://crestaluminum.com/toerail.htm

They had the closest match to the original toe rails on my Express 37.  2816-28 is from an Olson 30, it might also work on a SC27?

 

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1 hour ago, Swimsailor said:

Huge demand for SC27's right?  Anyone here offering to buy the boats from the OP for a price that makes sense for them?   Bueller...Bueller

Oh, there is a market. As someone else pointed out above they just had the Nationals amidst a pandemic and smoke. 9 boats showed up. Someone else pointed out the huge demand in the PNW. These are great boats and there are only about 100 made, ever. DON'T DESTROY THESE THREE!!!

In terms of the market: unless you have a really well sorted boat you will not fetch 10k, but there will be takers if you come down to reality (about half of that for a decent boat and about 1/4 of that for a boat that needs quite a bit of work)

I really do think it is a shame to chop up a great design and I don't think it is financially a great decision either. invest the +20k instead ina boat that works for your needs.

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I love people instructing others what they can and can not do with their own boats/property.

If these Santa Cruz 27s are so valuable, go make an offer to him that he can't refuse.

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Funny that nowadays everyone thinks that you need to start with a computer. Use to be that you'd start with a sawsall and a few panels and just build what you want. Now you have to scan, laze, compute and generally mindfuck it to death rather than actually just doing something. If you want a different deck on a SC27 find a dead boat cut the deck off build what you want, if it works like you thought, splash it to make a mold. Do have to wonder about the whole idea, great boats, but there are few and they're old and tired. 

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On 9/22/2020 at 9:40 AM, Schoonerman said:
We're asking the SA crowd if anyone has drawings/lines/takeoffs of the 27?  Reached out to Bill Lee yesterday and he has nothing. I thought I'd see if anyone here can't point the way?
 
Instructor, racer and Naval Architect Roberto G is helping us redesign the venerable Santa Cruz 27 deck. We (Spinnaker Sailing - SF) have been looking literally for YEARS for a boat that can replace the 27 to teach the ASA 104 Basic Coastal Cruising on. We replaced all of our aging Santana 22's with the Andrew's 21's for the basic level classes but we need to replace the SC 27's as they are pretty difficult to teach docking, etc on as the engine layout is funky and truth be told the cockpit design is pretty dated. We tried some lift keel boats, considered the M24 (too fragile) and some other options that fit the affordability requirement...nada.
 
The SC27 is a well built boat, light, fast and a delight to sail and as a bonus, we own 3 of them. Being an ultralight means you can put a much smaller outboard on it and it powers like a tugboat! We're trying to devise electric options for this but nothing is there for commercial use...quite yet.
 
Roberto has come up with a clean modern design that meets our criteria
- Larger Cockpit
- Open Transom for outboard motor operation/ease
- Small Cuddy Cabin. Will still sleep 4 !
 
 

Screenshot from 2020-09-20 07-27-41.png

An important thing to consider with respect to an open cockpit is the transom shape of the SC 27.  That is, will the opening in the above sketch fit?

IMO the stern of the SC 27 has more deadrise and is more v-shaped than the one in the sketch.  See stern on photo below 

I think to get an open transom to fit you have to either make the cockpit sole shallower or narrower, or incorporate more flare to the cockpit walls.  Although Norn has done it, I suspect they have more flare to the walls.  Although hard to tell for sure from the angle of the photo.

vitesse.jpg

Norn.jpg

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36 minutes ago, Ultraman said:

I love people instructing others what they can and can not do with their own boats/property.

If these Santa Cruz 27s are so valuable, go make an offer to him that he can't refuse.

No one is instructing anyone. The OP asks a question, people provide opinions, including that this might be a poor idea.

"Their own boats/property": if you buy a historical building you will often find it is protected and you cannot change at will. Why is that? They have features that are unique and regarded as something valuable that should be preserved. These fast are fun boats have no official protection, but the point here is similar: they are worth preserving. 

On making an offer: the OP knows what these boats sell for and will find a buyer. No problem.

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A few years ago I believe this little fleet was for sale. You could get a boat for $5k.

If you want one, go offer him some cash.

 

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Cut them up and make them your own. We opened the cockpit up in the Moore and it’s great. Way better offshore, much better with the kids and so easy to get to the outboard. And swimming of and on the boat is so easy now we jump in all this time on the way back to the club. 
 

you own the boats do with them what you want and tell everyone else to pound sand.  

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7 hours ago, Alex W said:

This company has a wide range of options:

https://crestaluminum.com/toerail.htm

They had the closest match to the original toe rails on my Express 37.  2816-28 is from an Olson 30, it might also work on a SC27?

 

Saw that...$900 each, plus truck freight from the east coast...probably more than we paid for the boat.:o Looking for used, maybe even a couple ten foot sections, maybe the guy who took them off still has them behind his garage and is on SA...Ok, wishful thinking.:rolleyes:

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4 hours ago, 12 metre said:

I think to get an open transom to fit you have to either make the cockpit sole shallower or narrower, or incorporate more flare to the cockpit walls.  Although Norn has done it, I suspect they have more flare to the walls.  Although hard to tell for sure from the angle of the photo.

I spent a few minutes with a tape measure in my cockpit once and came to the conclusion that raising the cockpit floor would allow for a more usefully wide cockpit. Flaring the cockpit walls out would help some, especially with volume in the q-berths. But you have to do something to try and make the cockpit floor as wide as you can. A game of centimeters and millimeters...I could not come up with any arrangement that improved the situation of that traveler being right in the way of the companionway.

Glad I stopped at the thought experiment stage.

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I still think the design concept drawing above is a solution looking for a problem.  But that's just me.  The stated goal is to make the boats easier to handle around the dock.  

IMHO the OP would be better off selling the SC 27's and getting something else that is easier to handle around the dock.  I have a buyer for an SC 27 in good shape with trailer, if the owner is willing to bring it to the PNW for pickup or wait until the border opens.  There are others out there.

Any idea what you would want for these?  Look, you don't even have to buy an ad!

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SC 27 on my dock just sold this month. He was asking 9K, I don't know what it went for.

 

BobJ has it right.  Why butcher up some SC 27's when you could get pretty much exactly what you want with  some J-80's for a lot less money than it will cost to re-do the SC's?

 

Sure, you own 'em.  So go set them on fire and drink champagne at the dump when you trash the charred remains if you want to, but I don't think that's really what the owner of the company I used to work for, would want.

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19 hours ago, Timo42 said:

Saw that...$900 each, plus truck freight from the east coast...

Ask around in the SC27 fleets to see if anyone has a section of one.  I shared a full length with another local Express 37 when we each needed some but not 21' of it.

You can avoid truck freight if you ask them to cut it before shipping.  If you get into 4' lengths (probably too short) shipping will be really cheap, at 8' lengths it is still reasonable.

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On 9/22/2020 at 12:09 PM, IMR said:

6 hp outboard would be huge on an sc27. Are you planning on wakeboarding behind it? 

 

On 9/22/2020 at 10:51 AM, Rain Man said:

If you have three boats, why not just measure everything?  Am I missing something?

The design above looks like the transom is being extended.  Seems like overkill - there are a lot of open transom SC 27's.  An open transom would solve most of your engine handling problems.  I agree that hanging over the stern to operate throttle and gears is non-ideal.

An even simpler and cheaper solution would be to purchase outboards with remote control, and find a small morse control to put on the cockpit sidewalls.  Again, your problems handling the engine around the dock are gone, and you can use the money you save to buy more sails, which SC 27's need a lot of.  Your boats can still compete in the nationals too.

https://www.go2marine.com/single-lever-side-mount-sail-boat-engine-control-ch2100

Actually, thanks for posting this, doing the research has made me realize how easy it would be to convert my SC 27 to remote control:

https://www.sailnet.com/threads/adding-remote-control-to-tohatsu-6hp.171362/

Remotes aren't the solution as we need to have the students touch the motors, operationally, to learn this important task.   

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On 9/22/2020 at 1:59 PM, Hitchhiker said:

I believe that is ASA 105 basic wakeboarding.

LMAO

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On 9/23/2020 at 10:08 PM, BobJ said:

What's wrong with the J/80 for this?  Seems to work for J World, OCSC had a couple, etc.  Time to move on, not screw up the SC27's.

Too heavy, monster rig, build quality was inconsistent, need huge motor, too big (berthing).... 27 is a bomber boat. Fits the bill nicely and will be more affordable in the long run than 80's even doing the decks. 

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On 9/22/2020 at 5:09 PM, See Level said:

Arne did it to Norn 25 years ago

Why change the house?

f8172657ad2cc8bddae20a3a58c148b7.jpg

We need a longer cockpit, particularly during COVID for social distancing during classes.  We defiantly do not need virtually any cabin space but the cuddy will work well and retain the stiffness from the furniture tabbings.

 

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On 9/23/2020 at 8:40 AM, Alan H said:

I sail on SF Bay and have seen a lot of Santa Cruz 27's and I've never seen one with an opened-up transom. Moore 24's, yes...but not the SC 27.

I would agree with suggestions to NOT butcher up a couple of existing SC 27's, but rather to take lines off of them and build out new boats. There aren't that many SC 27's, Bill only made about 100, so please don't shrink the class.

You know, Bill sold the molds to a company in the midwest, 20 years ago, they were going to build more of them. I'm sure Bill has their address. I think the company built two boats if I remember rightly and they might not have chainsawed the molds. I bet $500 and a trip to Minnesota, or wherever it was, might scare up hull and deck molds.

New build is roughly $40k plus tooling....I wish sailing schools could make that kind of $$

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On 9/23/2020 at 10:15 AM, Rain Man said:

Wrong.  The class held a Nationals regatta a couple of weekends ago at Santa Cruz Yacht Club.  Nine boats showed up in spite of covid.  We would have brought our boat down from the PNW but for covid and the border being shut.  

The class association is quite active.  You can learn about it here: https://www.sc27.org/ 

SC 27s are in heavy demand in the PNW because they are ideal for the R2AK.  As soon as one comes up they are snapped up, especially one in decent shape.  We had a lot of trouble finding one, and ended up resurrecting a local one that had a pile of issues (bulkheads, mast step, deck saturated in a few places).  It still needs more work but at least we have it sailing.

I am only aware of one in my local area which is a write-off - the owner parked it on the trailer for 20 years with no tarp and the entire deck is saturated, and all the wood in the interior is rotted.  It could still be saved because the hull is fine, but the amount of work is prohibitive.

These boats are an absolute riot to sail.  They reach like a 34' boat, they have a huge kite for downwind in light air.  Ours has an aftermarket larger rudder and after spending last winter fairing it and new rudder bearings the boat steers like it is on rails.  The cockpit looks uncomfortable but it really isn't.   I sat on the rail on Sunday on my boat upwind and even my aging bones can fit easily under the lifelines.  The narrow side decks actually make hiking more comfortable because you can use the edge of the cabin to support your back.  The toe rails are a problem but we have a solution for that. 

I can see why they are so much fun to sail to Hawaii.  Like my previous boat, a Dash 34, the kts/$ and fun/$ ratio on these boats is high.  In the picture, from Sunday's race, we are keeping up with a Ross 930 on a reach.

SC27.jpg

I agree...the 27's are an incredible boat. We had 6 of them at one time. We bought all the 27's from Cal maritime. They are a hard-to-find combination of quality, cost, performance and 'cool.'  Even though COVID is gutting my business, I'll fight to the last day to keep my SC 50 for the very same reasons.

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On 9/24/2020 at 10:15 AM, AnotherSailor said:

Oh, there is a market. As someone else pointed out above they just had the Nationals amidst a pandemic and smoke. 9 boats showed up. Someone else pointed out the huge demand in the PNW. These are great boats and there are only about 100 made, ever. DON'T DESTROY THESE THREE!!!

In terms of the market: unless you have a really well sorted boat you will not fetch 10k, but there will be takers if you come down to reality (about half of that for a decent boat and about 1/4 of that for a boat that needs quite a bit of work)

I really do think it is a shame to chop up a great design and I don't think it is financially a great decision either. invest the +20k instead ina boat that works for your needs.

OK, I'll bite. What boat works for $20K?

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On 9/24/2020 at 12:37 PM, IMR said:

Cut them up and make them your own. We opened the cockpit up in the Moore and it’s great. Way better offshore, much better with the kids and so easy to get to the outboard. And swimming of and on the boat is so easy now we jump in all this time on the way back to the club. 
 

you own the boats do with them what you want and tell everyone else to pound sand.  

We're sensitive to the fleet. They are awesome boats. Sadly ever year or so, one gets cut up and dumped...last year happening at Richmond Yacht Club.  We use these as a tool and teach a shitload of people how to sail on them. I can't think of a better legacy than that for such a venerable design as the 27. We're just trying to do a better job of teaching an increasingly more difficult set of demographics how to sail. My school is 40 years old this year. I've not got a lot left in me but what I do have, I'd like to do it well and good while building something that works for the task and will, in the future, be a fun and affordable boat. It should rate decent under PHRF and will be a great daysailer on the Bay!

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On 9/25/2020 at 9:40 AM, Alan H said:

SC 27 on my dock just sold this month. He was asking 9K, I don't know what it went for.

 

BobJ has it right.  Why butcher up some SC 27's when you could get pretty much exactly what you want with  some J-80's for a lot less money than it will cost to re-do the SC's?

 

Sure, you own 'em.  So go set them on fire and drink champagne at the dump when you trash the charred remains if you want to, but I don't think that's really what the owner of the company I used to work for, would want.

J80's typically sell for $20K+ (no trailer)  There's rarely any for sale in the Cali and shipping them is $$.  We looked hard at the 80. I've sailed a few and on the Bay in 25+ they are a bit of a beast. The 27 is SO much easier to sail for newbies. 

Not sure about the set-on-fire comment. We've done more to keep SC 27's viable than any single person out there. We've bought and sold boats over the past 40 years on the fluctuations of the sailing school markets needs. We've looked long and hard at what boats might fill this void, for reasonable dollars. J/80's aren't that with the aforementioned acquisition cost, the cost of sails (big rig), and the general unavailability of them. Add to that, they are a more difficult boat to sail the Bay on IMHO. It was easy for us to replace the Santana 22's...we bought a fleet of Andrews 21's for very reasonable dollars..voila. We've searched high and low for similar options on the 27's...nada.

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5 minutes ago, Schoonerman said:

J80's typically sell for $20K+ (no trailer)  There's rarely any for sale in the Cali and shipping them is $$.  We looked hard at the 80. I've sailed a few and on the Bay in 25+ they are a bit of a beast. The 27 is SO much easier to sail for newbies. 

Not sure about the set-on-fire comment. We've done more to keep SC 27's viable than any single person out there. We've bought and sold boats over the past 40 years on the fluctuations of the sailing school markets needs. We've looked long and hard at what boats might fill this void, for reasonable dollars. J/80's aren't that with the aforementioned acquisition cost, the cost of sails (big rig), and the general unavailability of them. Add to that, they are a more difficult boat to sail the Bay on IMHO. It was easy for us to replace the Santana 22's...we bought a fleet of Andrews 21's for very reasonable dollars..voila. We've searched high and low for similar options on the 27's...nada.

Let me ask what you think building a new deck for each of those 27s is going to cost? 

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On 9/23/2020 at 6:14 PM, Alan H said:

There are a dozen boats in Hawaii, too and they get used. My old SC27. Ankle Biter is there and I know she gets sailed.

 

Anyway, I remembered the name of the company that bought the SC27 molds.  Alar Yachts.

 

 
Businesses
Sailboats, (with or without engine) Catamarans, Trimarans
Type/Status
Out of Business (Jun 09, 1988 - Dec 02, 2003)
Contact
BUCK KINNAN
Address
10327 NORTH SHORE DR, DULUTH, MN USA
Phone
+1 218-525-6596

ALAR YACHTS INC boats

 

Call him up, maybe the molds are still in one (two) piece_s).

FYI I was Alar Yachts.  Bought the molds from Buzz Balenger and built 3 boats, 2 of which eventually went to the West Coast.  Sold the molds and tooling to a fella in Southern Wisconsin. He did nothing with them and I have no idea what happened to the SC 27 stuff or the Olson 40 or the Tiffany Jayne 34 molds

 

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2 hours ago, ancientseawolf said:

FYI I was Alar Yachts.  Bought the molds from Buzz Balenger and built 3 boats, 2 of which eventually went to the West Coast.  Sold the molds and tooling to a fella in Southern Wisconsin. He did nothing with them and I have no idea what happened to the SC 27 stuff or the Olson 40 or the Tiffany Jayne 34 molds

 

Sounds like the moulds may still be intact. Have you had any contact with the Wisconsin fellow since?

 

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I

3 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Sounds like the moulds may still be intact. Have you had any contact with the Wisconsin fellow since?

 

I have not, but I know a guy who knew The guy...

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On 9/27/2020 at 7:20 AM, Schoonerman said:

OK, I'll bite. What boat works for $20K?

It seems you have done your research well and I am not aware of what you exactly need, but I have seen quite a few Olson 25s for sale. The Ranger 26 is a great bay boat as well (and another Mull design - you mentioned the tuna). And those are well under the 20k budget. 

I would seriously consider buying one of your SC27s, especially if it comes with a trailer. Just saying.

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Both boats have tiny cockpits...not what we need to teach sailing.

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What about the Colgate 26?

They have been around for 20+ years, so there should be some on the used market. They were built for the NYC harbor, a heavy wind area not much different from the SF Bay. They have a big open cockpit but I doubt anyone will shed tears if you decide to radically modify a few of them.

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Colgate 26: Not that it means anything, but I don't believe I have ever seen one on the bay.

I see regarding the small cockpit size. 

 

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C26 is great concept....poorly executed IMHO.  Balance is all wrong...though that could be designed around. Franky the C26 isn't half the boat the SC27 is...once again IMHO. The SC27i will be a MUCH better instructional platform!

Beneteau came out with a 26 footer that they developed specifically for teaching in conjunction with the ASA...not a good Bay boat at all. They could have done a REALLY nice boat had they listened to the focus groups. I would have bought six of them. 

https://www.beneteau.com/us/news/learn-sail-beneteau#

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On 9/27/2020 at 7:07 AM, Schoonerman said:

Too heavy, monster rig, build quality was inconsistent, need huge motor, too big (berthing).... 27 is a bomber boat. Fits the bill nicely and will be more affordable in the long run than 80's even doing the decks. 

Both the J/80 and SC27 weigh 3,000#.  I taught on the J/80s out of Alameda.  We never broke one.  They had flatter mains and with a reef pulled in, they sailed fine in big Bay breeze (though the kite was a handful).  They are 26' and skinny - we could put two in a slip.  They rarely had the outboards installed - the students learned from day one how to sail in and out of the marina.  Besides, I had to stand back there for the learn-to-sail classes.

But it sounds like your mind is made up and that's cool too.

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Yes...they displace the same but IMHO, the SC 27 is a much more spry boat and once again IMHO, a better built boat.

J/world didn't put outboards on J/80's as it allowed Wayne to use instructors who were not USCG certified. It was a great workaround...something we couldn't do at South Beach Harbor...at least safely... as we're at the upwind side of a long windward/leeward fairway. 

Yes, like I said the 80 is a great boat. I love sailing them as I do the J/105 I own...we looked at two that we were going to buy...both had serious gelcoat crazing all over them as is pretty common. They also had many stress cracks in working points. Stanchion points were all a mess.   Both these boats went for more than $22k and neither had a trailer. Sails were pretty toast on both as well. They would have required $5k in detail, fix it work to get them so they looked clean enough to be a suitable replacement for the 27's.

Truth is the J/80 is really the only boat I've seen that I'd replace the SC27's with...if I could find them in decent shape and affordable. Wayne is selling one in SD for $17.5k, no trailer...very tired boat. There's another in Wisconsin on a trailer for $24K and it will cost $5K+ to get it to NorCal. It just doesn't make financial sense.  If there were a few in the NorCal, in good shape, I'd be all over it, but moving them, without a trailer is a huge PIA.

I got spoiled buying all the Andrews 21's. They were well built, well cared for and affordable. That's why I'm going down the rabbit hole on the 27's. 

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Keep us informed how this project evolves.  At the end of the day, if you go ahead you will be taking a very cool boat and turning it into an even cooler boat.  Hope it all works out!

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Have you got quotes on how much it will cost to build new decks and install on the boats? 

A used J80 might not seem so expensive after all!(even with transport from different parts of country)

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$8-9k plus tooling.  The BOM is under 3K so we are looking for a space in Half Moon Bay to build these. 

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I am glad to hear you are finding a cost effective way to do this!

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On 9/22/2020 at 1:19 PM, carcrash said:

The worst thing about SC27 is the cockpit. I always wished mine had a cockpit like in this drawing!

 

I agree, I hate the Cockpit and the traditional combings. Like who the F sits in a cockpit and drinks on a 27 anymore. It is a wet boat anyway. I do like the boat but the cockpit sucks. I like to be able to get from side to side easily when sailing and hike too.

On 9/23/2020 at 6:18 AM, yoyo said:

SC27's are great boats but they might be better left "class legal" for resale value. 

What is real funny about Class Legal is the Displacements, the SC 27 class, range from 2700 lbs to 3300 lbs. That is 600 pounds difference in a 27 foot boat and PHRF rates them all the same. I mean like how can a 3300 lb boat compete with a 2700 lb boat off the wind. Just because a boat is accepted by a class is BS when it comes to discrepancies like that. 
My boat with less waterline and more disp (3200) owes 3 sec a mile to the SC 27, Calif Zephyr which has a disp of 2700. Sometimes Class bullshit is just bullshit. PHRF considers them all the same which is pure BS.

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5 hours ago, Schoonerman said:

$8-9k plus tooling.  The BOM is under 3K so we are looking for a space in Half Moon Bay to build these. 

You must be doing all the work yourself. Could never get a 27’ deck built and installed in this area for that amount. Would cost 30-50K per boat at least depending on how much interior reworking needs to be done. 

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2 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

I agree, I hate the Cockpit and the traditional combings. Like who the F sits in a cockpit and drinks on a 27 anymore. It is a wet boat anyway. I do like the boat but the cockpit sucks. I like to be able to get from side to side easily when sailing and hike too.

What is real funny about Class Legal is the Displacements, the SC 27 class, range from 2700 lbs to 3300 lbs. That is 600 pounds difference in a 27 foot boat and PHRF rates them all the same. I mean like how can a 3300 lb boat compete with a 2700 lb boat off the wind. Just because a boat is accepted by a class is BS when it comes to discrepancies like that. 
My boat with less waterline and more disp (3200) owes 3 sec a mile to the SC 27, Calif Zephyr which has a disp of 2700. Sometimes Class bullshit is just bullshit. PHRF considers them all the same which is pure BS.

The lighter boats have lighter keels, and are harder to sail upwind if there is breeze, but will be faster downwind.  I think PHRF assumes that they even out over time.

PHRF has always been horses for courses, but you knew that.

I would bet you believe both the lighter and the heavier boats should owe you time...

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6 hours ago, Schoonerman said:

$8-9k plus tooling.  The BOM is under 3K so we are looking for a space in Half Moon Bay to build these. 

I assume that is per boat?  And just for the construction of the deck and you do all the fitting out (winches, traveller etc.)?

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15 hours ago, Squalamax said:

You must be doing all the work yourself. Could never get a 27’ deck built and installed in this area for that amount. Would cost 30-50K per boat at least depending on how much interior reworking needs to be done. 

That builder is in SoCal and builds a lot of boats! $9k per deck...tooling is the bugaboo. 

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After the 3-page article as "Boat of the Month" in September's Latitude 38, I'd be less inclined to do the surgery.

But they aren't my boats...

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2 hours ago, Schoonerman said:

That builder is in SoCal and builds a lot of boats! $9k per deck...tooling is the bugaboo. 

A very wise shipwright once told me "Building the hull, and deck are the cheap part". 

I would venture the cost of your project, replacing the deck of a SC27 would be more than double whatever the actual deck cost to manufacture. 

You have said you want to convert 3 boats? Your tooling cost will be amortized  by how many parts the mold is used for. Three is a low number. 

Then you will be, I assume, removing and retro fitting all the used gear, to the new deck. More cost in labor. Add another 30%

And you still have boats that are 45 years old. 

Might have a loose screw.

Check the keel bolts...

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22 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

I agree, I hate the Cockpit and the traditional combings. Like who the F sits in a cockpit and drinks on a 27 anymore. It is a wet boat anyway. I do like the boat but the cockpit sucks. I like to be able to get from side to side easily when sailing and hike too.

What is real funny about Class Legal is the Displacements, the SC 27 class, range from 2700 lbs to 3300 lbs. That is 600 pounds difference in a 27 foot boat and PHRF rates them all the same. I mean like how can a 3300 lb boat compete with a 2700 lb boat off the wind. Just because a boat is accepted by a class is BS when it comes to discrepancies like that. 
My boat with less waterline and more disp (3200) owes 3 sec a mile to the SC 27, Calif Zephyr which has a disp of 2700. Sometimes Class bullshit is just bullshit. PHRF considers them all the same which is pure BS.

19 hours ago, Rain Man said:

The lighter boats have lighter keels, and are harder to sail upwind if there is breeze, but will be faster downwind.  I think PHRF assumes that they even out over time.

PHRF has always been horses for courses, but you knew that.

I would bet you believe both the lighter and the heavier boats should owe you time...

Actually many people believe the Zap26 and the SC 27 should be B4B. But, I was thinking mostly of OW rating and races. And I know about the earlier boats having lighter keels. They kept adding more ballast until the 3300 disp mark

When the CZ was sailing we beat them all the time because they always over stood the W mark and had shitty starts, that is w/l racing. But they would climb up our asses on the DW leg. 500 lbs is a big difference when sailing boats of the same color. I posted a few pics a while back that had the SC 27  CZ in the back ground, way over stood. here they are again in 2 different races. Lucky the mark boat guy had a camera.

But in a long race OW, I would hate to give them 3 sec/mile. Unless it was blowing like stink survival conditions.

Hitting the layline is so important in a regatta.

Race 1 they were closer.

DSC00309-XL.jpg

Race 3 yea, they were toast.

DSC00461-XL.jpg

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23 hours ago, jhc said:

A very wise shipwright once told me "Building the hull, and deck are the cheap part". 

I would venture the cost of your project, replacing the deck of a SC27 would be more than double whatever the actual deck cost to manufacture. 

You have said you want to convert 3 boats? Your tooling cost will be amortized  by how many parts the mold is used for. Three is a low number. 

Then you will be, I assume, removing and retro fitting all the used gear, to the new deck. More cost in labor. Add another 30%

And you still have boats that are 45 years old. 

Might have a loose screw.

Check the keel bolts...

This is SO much easier than the 3 restos I did on the 78' 1933 Brigantine Rendezvous (interior shot of our work here)...but she sunk and HAD to have it to be put back into USCG passenger service. Doing the Deck resto on the SC50 was a bit of labor too but that turned out awesome and was very much worth it, income wise (she's a USCG passenger vessel)

Production tool ($40K+) isn't necessary so we'll go female tool. We're likely to spend $10-12K on this but amortized over 3 boats, it's not bad. If we are careful, the tool should last 4+ boats and if it does we'll likely pull another part from it and store it pending finding another boat with a dead deck.

Deck layout is easy and the parts/rig/etc will all be used from the previous boats as they're in great shape. Adding any necessary ringframes will be the biggest expense aside from the deck itself but we've got a pretty good system for that now. 

Keelboats inspected every haul out. These boats have been very actively maintained....decks are the weakest link right now.

 

 

rvous interior.jpg

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It seems like you've  made up your mind, and Spinnaker owns the boats so why are you asking us?  Not sure I understand.

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I'm wasn't asking for permission...I was asking for plans/lines/drawings. I found those. 

I know I don't need permission but I'm always willing to listen to contrarian viewpoints for perspective. 

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