occams_razor

Insurer Recommendations?

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We're having real trouble getting new insurance coverage, wondering what others with performance multihulls are seeing/using?  We've been with lots of carriers over the years, most recently Pantaenius who has exited the US market.  So far with 2 agents checking dozens of carriers only two would even offer a quote - GEICO and Concept Special Risks.  Neither quote is attractive to say the least.  

Anyone having better success?

 

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We went through this about a year ago and had the same experience.

We were told by our broker that due to a variety of global events (e.g. weather) insurance underwriters are not in the best of financial situations, so they are being much more particular when it comes down to insuring items perceived as higher risk, and this includes multihulls.

Our broker works with five different underwriters, and only one of them was even willing to offer a quote, so we took what we could get given the requirement to have insurance to enter races.

Even the same underwriter who covered the boat for the previous owner wouldn't touch it, despite our solid credentials and zero claims ever.

Multihulls are simply persona non grata at the moment.

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Sounds right.  Mind sharing who you were able to get coverage thru?  Assuming it wasn't GEICO or Concept Special Risks, I'd love to see if they'll quote us.  

We've been insured long enough over the course of several boats that we've seen these market oscillations more than once, but this one seems particularly rough.  The agent we've used for years is even pretty exasperated.  

For reference, the GEICO quote is for solid coverage but is about 3% of hull value (1).  We've been getting coverage for years at 1% or less, Pantaenius was at about 0.5% (no one wonders why they didn't make it...).  The Concept Special Risks quote was about 1.5% but for basically catastrophic coverage only (very high deductible).

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Our policy is with NautiMax/Aviva, underwritten by Elite Insurance Company, and brokered by Megson Fitzpatrick.

We're in Canada so not sure if any of these plans are available to you.

Another company initially expressed interest but declined when they found out the boat (F-82R) was a custom build.

Our annual premium is about 1.6% of hull value, which is quite a bit higher than my cruiser/racer monohull which is about 1% of hull value. The coverage is pretty comprehensive with a reasonable deductible. 

The Megson Fitzpatrick broker was amazing and really went the extra mile for us. She was surprised at how hard it was.

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I think Boats US offers insurance that's entirely Geico Marine, but applies somewhat different (more lax?) criteria. For small multihulls, anyway.

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Yeah, I used Geico through US Boats for my Sprint 750  - it was reasonable. They were fine to deal with. 

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There's a thread about Boat US's descending valuation of aging boats.  Boat at 15 ot 20 years old are not well insured.  Read the fine print.  I dropped them because of that.

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14 hours ago, martin 'hoff said:

I think Boats US offers insurance that's entirely Geico Marine, but applies somewhat different (more lax?) criteria. For small multihulls, anyway.

We have it for the L7.  Haven’t had to use it, but it’s enough so the marina is happy.

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I'm a Geico client. They seem reasonable. Pantaenius dropped our coverage in the US. Airplane insurance is even worse.

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We have Merkel Jackline through IMS for 1995 Chris White cat. Not a recommendation, just what we have.

 

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We have BoatUS/Geico. Just got a quote from Jackline and it was about 50% higher, required a haulout, survey, and rigging survey. Also, with Geico we get all of México, and they don’t care where we spend hurricane season. 

We’ll probably switch after our next haulout in a year or 2, because Geico won’t do any further afield than Mexico (we’re on the Pacific side). We’re tempted to get a chainsaw and see if we can cut The roots we’ve grown here in México, maybe in ‘22-‘23. If the Covid stops. If the South Pacific opens up. If...........

You know, we love México!

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In ten years of ownership the only insurance I was able to get for Spirit that was ocean going was from these guys and Christophe's service was fantastic.  Never had a claim with them so can't comment on that.

puma-128.png
Christophe GEORGE
Senior insurance consultant - marine & aviation branch
Tel : +66(0)92 542 0505 (GMT + 7)
christophe.g@poe-ma.com
Poe-ma insurances group

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Haven't tried GEICO thru BoatUS, though I do know as @eric1207 mentioned that policy line does depreciate pretty aggressively.  They underwrite multiple lines, the quote we got was a policy they write specifically for Novamar.

@gspot - thanks for that.  Won't work for us but hopefully helps someone here.

@mpenman - We were with Pantaenius also, most recently at least.  Your profile thumbnail looks like a Chris White, but can't be sure.  Would be pretty similar to us if so, wondering what your premium quote is as a % of insured hull value if you don't mind sharing?  Ours was right at 3%, which almost 3 times what we've ever paid before (and that was for Caribbean nav limits vs just east coast now - even excluding Florida).  Our previous quote from GEICO (2 years ago) was 1.5%....

@jdazey - I didn't realize that Jackline was underwritten by Markel.  We had Jackline on a monohull years ago.  We were with Markel thru Novamar on our current boat when Markel (I thought) dropped us because they exited the catamaran market.  Wondering if Jackline is an exception or if maybe they just dropped that policy with Novamar.  Regardless, thanks - will give IMIS a call again.

@trispirit - will give them a look.  Looks like they are in Thailand?  Are you in the US?

 

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@Mark Set I literally just now was speaking with a broker who suggested that American Modern could be an option, and that they've recently/aggressively entered the market for boats over 28'.  Boat is currently on the hard in MA, and will spend the season on a mooring in RI.

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@occams_razor We have been with Jack Martin & Associates, insurance brokerage out of Annapolis, for 3 years - very pleased.


We have our 2018 Lagoon 380 insured through Safewaters - premiums have remained very stable and we have total east coast coverage including the Bahamas.


Here is my point of contact:

Alicia Pulanco
Yacht Client Services Representative
Your partner in a changing world
Jack Martin & Associates | 135 Old Solomons Island Road Annapolis MD 21401
Office: 443-433-5760 | Internal: x2154 | Fax: 410-626-9966
Alicia.Pulanco@jackmartin.com |jackmartin.com

logo

 

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Progressive insures my tri for pretty cheap, and its super simple since you can use all the Progressive apps and tools and such.  No claims yet, and I have required liability only, but might we worth a look.  They were not fussy about requiring an inspection or anything like that.

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@BlueMind  Thanks for that.  Safewaters (and most others) declined to quote based on "carbon construction".  We've stressed that the boat is not fully carbon, that it is carbon reinforcements and carbon rig, but didn't make a difference.  To be fair, the rotating wingmast is fully carbon, and replacement cost is damn near the insured hull value.  

 

@kruiter have not tried Progressive or been submitted as far as I know, will take a look.  We definitely want loss coverage though, and it looks like Progressive caps at 50 feet and $350k value.

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The new thing now is FOILS. If the boat has them, carriers may not want the risk. Progressive is just once example. No Hydrofoils allowed.

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So last year while salvaging the boat and rebuilding in the shed my insurance company, Nautilus, refused to insure me after a payout. I ended up with  Edward William (Northernreef),  as it was the only insurance I could get at the time.   Into the rebuild they sent me an email saying Northernreef will cease trading and it was basically bad luck.... So no refund and off I went and ended up with New Wave. Money down the drain ....not happy but that's life.

A not so funny thing happened today. I just received an email from Edward William Insurance inviting me to re insure with them (Northern Reef). I emailed back, confused, saying "You cancelled with no refund".   They just sent back an email saying Northernreef ended up trading again and I was insured the whole time unbeknown to me .  I replied something along the lines of.. " oh golly gosh what a bugger but thanks for emailing me this."

like I can afford to pay two policies after losing my boat........ Absolute fuckers

 

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Before Geico came out with their own branded insurance they wrote my policy through Ski-Safe w/named value and was less than Geico when I last checked.

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Concept Special Risks is the only underwriter we've been able to get a quote from - running about 1.5%. Plus they charge extra for each offshore passage, roughly another 0.15%. Jackline wouldn't quote us - carbon rig and carbon in the layup were their reasons. Geico used a lot of my time before suddenly saying they wouldn't cover us because the boat is owned through a BVI company and BVI flagged, claim they do US boats only. We've been checking alternatives regularly, no dice - hope CSR maintains their risk appetite.

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On 9/28/2020 at 10:03 AM, occams_razor said:

Haven't tried GEICO thru BoatUS, though I do know as @eric1207 mentioned that policy line does depreciate pretty aggressively.  They underwrite multiple lines, the quote we got was a policy they write specifically for Novamar.

@gspot - thanks for that.  Won't work for us but hopefully helps someone here.

@mpenman - We were with Pantaenius also, most recently at least.  Your profile thumbnail looks like a Chris White, but can't be sure.  Would be pretty similar to us if so, wondering what your premium quote is as a % of insured hull value if you don't mind sharing?  Ours was right at 3%, which almost 3 times what we've ever paid before (and that was for Caribbean nav limits vs just east coast now - even excluding Florida).  Our previous quote from GEICO (2 years ago) was 1.5%....

@jdazey - I didn't realize that Jackline was underwritten by Markel.  We had Jackline on a monohull years ago.  We were with Markel thru Novamar on our current boat when Markel (I thought) dropped us because they exited the catamaran market.  Wondering if Jackline is an exception or if maybe they just dropped that policy with Novamar.  Regardless, thanks - will give IMIS a call again.

@trispirit - will give them a look.  Looks like they are in Thailand?  Are you in the US?

 

Hi Occam,

    Welcome to the fray here. Is you boat the Ron Givens cat? 

 

 

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On 10/25/2020 at 4:18 PM, CapDave said:

Concept Special Risks is the only underwriter we've been able to get a quote from - running about 1.5%. Plus they charge extra for each offshore passage, roughly another 0.15%. Jackline wouldn't quote us - carbon rig and carbon in the layup were their reasons. Geico used a lot of my time before suddenly saying they wouldn't cover us because the boat is owned through a BVI company and BVI flagged, claim they do US boats only. We've been checking alternatives regularly, no dice - hope CSR maintains their risk appetite.

@CapDave good to know re: both GEICO and Jackline.  I tried to get Jackline to quote us but they wouldn't since we aren't currently living aboard, but we're same with carbon rig and in layup so that sounds like would be a no anyway.  FWIW we did get a quote from American Modern, guessing they would quote you as well.  Only question would be nav limits - we're not cruising at the moment so our quote was just US coastal. 

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