Bull City

H-Boat vs. Hinckley Sou'wester 30

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A Hanse 291 would also fill the bill, I'm thinking...

Hanse-291.jpg

 

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On 9/29/2020 at 2:56 PM, andykane said:

As an ignorant west-coaster, where Hinckleys aren't really a thing, what do people really mean when they talk about the exceptional build quality? I would have thought at this point 60+ years of use and maintenance would be a much bigger factor than the original build. Are we talking interior cabinetry? Bespoke bronze castings? Very pretty boats, but I don't quite "get it". 

Cabinetry, and castings and a hull layup that has been state of the art for it’s era. 
built by “boat builders” using modern materials, where costs were not paramount. 
 

an few examples;

1. “Lioness” has a monel diesel tank.  Why? So it will “never” leak from corrosion.  

2. All deck fittings are tapped into the deck layup, bedded and backed appropriately with plates/washers/acorn nuts. 
 

3. the Fiberglas layup in 1962 was the same thickness as a wooden boat would have been, omitting only the frames, retaining bulkheads and stem reinforcement.  My stem is 5” thick layup.  

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Of the three boats I listed, the one most likely to find in the next 6 months, in North America is the Albin, BTW.

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7 hours ago, Kolibri said:

Bull, just to throw a twist into your search. Have you considered a J Boat between 24 and 30 ft? They sail like rockets and depending on the model they have a fair amount of elbow room. There's a shit ton of them on the market so it's easy to find a good deal. 

I’m a J/Boat die hard but the ones under 30 feet are not particularly visually appealing.

And the good looking ones’ cabins are tiny compared to some of the boats we’ve mentioned.

I would say the 92 and 100 are the smallest really good looking Js... plus the 88 as an outlier.

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14 hours ago, Bull City said:

Kolibri, thanks for the thought. I've had two J22s in my life - lovely, sweet sailing boats, but, for me single-handing or with Mrs. B, over 10 - 12 knots, they got a little squirrelly, hence my move to the H-Boat.

The J24 has meager accommodations and a deck and cockpit that only a sadist could love. The J30 cockpit does not have backrests The J28 and J32 are better, but don't tug at my heartstrings.

Hey Bull,

Actually the late model J-30's do.  The cockpit and galley areas were "updated" in 1984/5 to make them more cruise friendly...

cruiser-sailboat-boat.jpg

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I’ve never been on a J/30 but the Retro Look video was eye opening for that cockpit... you gotta be kidding me

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5 minutes ago, Alaris said:

I’ve never been on a J/30 but the Retro Look video was eye opening for that cockpit... you gotta be kidding me

That was an early boat, with the original cockpit layout.  The late model ones eliminated the huge bridgedeck, and added cockpit combings, significantly adding to cockpit space and comfort if not racing hard...

It's still not the greatest cockpit in the world, but it is much better...

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28 feet but something draws me to it. For the lake, perhaps not. Thinking outside the box so to speak.

 

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5 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

Nice boat but I've never seen so many bad photos from a broker. Dozens and dozens! Take his(her) phone away. 

I agree. It looks like she was undergoing an interior refinishing.

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Have a few notes on Gypsy that might or might not be correct.

Hull #8 with hull date 12/82

Morris supplied hull (kit) completed by H. Michael Herger

Previous names: Earth's End, Irish Gypsy.

In build, she's remarkably similar to Morris completed hull #9, Blue Bird  (9/83) Maybe the "kit" reference is incorrect.

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Hey Bull,

What about a (C&C) Redwing 30?  Has that classic look and profile, but a fin keel (shark fin) and spade rudder, so the numbers would indicate livelier performance.

SA/Disp is relatively high at 17 

Disp/Len is not too high at 323.6

PHRF is 195-198

https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/boa/d/annapolis-redwing-30-sloop/7212759061.html

30' C&C Redwing Sloop - Midcoast Yacht & Ship Brokerage

img.php?t=1&id=5607238

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NICE boat, Crash!.....There ya go, Bull!  show that to the Mrs!

 

If you got it, it might be a thought to install a more up-to-date rudder, but aside from that.... that's a good lookin' boat.

 

EDIT: never mind, that boat's already had the rudder job done.  That's a sweet package.

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Another line of boats that are very appealing is the Sea Sprite line, especially the 28, 30 and 34. But I always get back to the ratios, SA/DISP and DISP/LWL. I think it would be a good idea to start a thread to discuss these and what they mean to us. Thoughts?

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Bull, I have been thinking about this thread, and have thought that some of the ideas might be leading you in a bad direction.  So I'm gonna pontificate a bit and throw out ideas.

The title post was about the attractions of a boat (Hinckley 30) which is designed for a radically different usage to how you describe your use of the H-boat.  Plenty of other posts have suggested variations on the theme of the Hinckley: heavy offshore boats from the classic-plastic era.  Most of the suggestions are very pretty boats, but they seem to me to have little to do with your usage.

You sail on a lake, where as far as I can see there are plenty of bays and coves to explore, and scope to meander off on trips of up to 15 miles ... but almost nowhere that is more than 1 mile from a shore, and no single stretch where you could sail more than about 10 miles in a straight line.  Also, it's a lake, and lake winds can be light and fickle or squally.

So I reckon you need to avoid what @Ajax calls the "battleship in a bathtub".  It seems to me that the ideal sailing boat for the lake will be:

  • easily-driven and generously-canvassed, to keep sailing in light airs
  • easy to change gear: readily depowered when a squall comes in, readily re-powered when the wind eases
  • easily-maneuvered.  Tacking needs to be easy and fun, gybing non-traumatic, and coming up into the wind shouldn't involve much winching.
  • easily started and stopped; sails should be  easily deployed and easily put to bed 

AFAICS, the H-boat meets all of this very well.

  • easily-driven hull: slim, with light displacement, low wetted surface and low windage.  So it can keep going in light winds.
  • rig is generous enough to keep the boat moving, but because the hull is small and easily-driven, that rig is still small enough to be easily handled.
  • Easily-tacked: the non-overlapping jib can be sheeted in with minimal effort
  • easy to change gear.  That fractional rig can be easily depowered by the backstay and the mainsheet traveller.  The jib can be rolled up, and she'll still sail well under main alone.
  • Railmeat not needed.  Unlike the J/22, she is well-enough ballasted not to need human ballast when going to windward.

Those are all fine virtues, not to be sacrificed lightly if your priority is sailing.

Many of the other boats mentioned above lack all those virtues.  Heavy craft with lots of wetted surface, short on canvas and with all the vices of masthead rigs: no possibility of depowering by tweaks to the main, and a big overlapping headsail to tack painfully.

Boats like that Hinckley 30 are fine yachts, well-suited to offshore sailing.  But they are all about directional stability on long courses, gentle motion in a seaway, and looking after you in a big blow.  Putting one of them on the short sailing legs of a flat-watered, crinkly-edged lake seems like entering a ploughing ox in a gymnastics competition.

Maybe you have tired of the joys of a tiller which talks to you through the two finger-tips needed to guide it.  Maybe you have tired of the joys of confidently tacking close to a shoreline because you know that you have such fine control of the boat that you can do so safely and easily.  Maybe you have tired of sailing in a light zephyr when fatter boats are glued in place.  Maybe you are now happy to join the fleet of boats which mostly move under engine, and where most of the sailing is just a genoa unrolled when the wind is behind the beam.

If that's the case, and it's now more important to be able stand up in a wood-cave cabin and manoeuvre with the chug of an inboard diesel, then this thread has of plenty of suggestions for very fine diesel-powered furniture boats.  Handsome and pedigreed, but very different to the H-boat.

Maybe that's what you want, but I think what I'm sensing is that you want a H-boat-type sailing experience with better auxiliary power and better accommodation.

If money is no object, then one of the modern daysailers would fit the bill: Tartan Fantail, Morris 29, Alerion 28, J/100 etc.  But they all seem to be over $100,000, which may be too much.

There were some other interesting suggestions, such as the 28' Albin Cumulus.  Nice boat, but it's significantly beamier than the H-boat, and it's designed for use with an overlapping genoa.  I reckon it'd be much less rewarding to sail.

The closest fit might be the H-323 (https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/h-323), big sister of the H-boat.  A bit more cruisey, but still fairly light and narrow.  But I dunno if any made it to North America.

A similar recipe is the Aphrodite 29 (https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/aphrodite-29291), later produced as the Hanse 291 (https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/hanse-291).  The Hanse versions are let down by poor deck gear, but there was an interesting example of one in the UK where upgraded gear transformed it: https://www.hanseyachtsag.com/mis/website/document/download/hanse-291-test-review-2012-hanse-291-uk_1390526840464030587.pdf, with video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHtTPXqMK_8

If you can live with poor headroom, then the classic Aphrodite 101 (https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/aphrodite-101) is worth a look.  In Europe, they seem to have found a niche as a lake boat, with a big fleet on the Bodensee.  But they do have an inboard, and are a joy to sail.  Here's one in Connecticut: https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1986/aphrodite-101-3534835/

I also thought of two leftfield ideas:

  1. Get a better outboard arrangement for the H-boat.  Either cut an outboard well, or get some clever techie to devise some way of remotely deploying the outboard on the stern.  Either way would cost a few quid,  but it would allow you to keep on enjoying a wonderful boat
  2. Take something like an Albin Cumulus, and turbo the rig so that it doesn't need a genoa.   Fathead main with backstay flicker, and a short bowsprit to make a bigger jib or fly a Code 0, and you could pump up the SA nicely.

Either of those paths would be a bit spendy, but a lot less spendy than say an Alerion.

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+1 on the aphrodite, it is just a big H-boat...

There is a bigger Aphrodite 101 with standing room inside but it is a bit big, the Bianca 414 :

123236024gallery_wm.jpg

Light, self tacking and sails very well... shame that they didn't manufacture a 33 or 35 footer as it would have been perfect for you.

Apparently there is one for sale there : https://www.theyachtmarket.com/en/boat-for-sale/1209971/

 

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7 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

So I'm gonna pontificate a bit and throw out ideas.

TwoLegged, thank you very much for taking the time respond. I think you have a pretty good grasp of the situation. I'm very happy sailing the H-Boat, but a wee bit more room would be nice. I'm also contemplating the Torqeedo/ePropulsion pod "inboard."

I'm a little familiar with the H-323, also a Groop design. As far as I know, none have made it to North America.

To keep me off balance, J-Boats just announced the J/9, a 28-foot version of the J/100 (33-feet). It can be fitted with an inboard engine, diesel or electric, or an OB. Very interesting. Sail plan, lines, and interior layout are not available yet.

1965596440_ScreenShot2020-11-25at6_12_45PM.thumb.png.696d135655c7b46f5f24a746304aa33c.png

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if an H-323 ever came up for sale in North America, me 'n Bull would have to arm 'rassle for it.

LOL

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I'm glad that was some help, Bull, and that I hadn't misread things.

The idea of a Torqeedo pod in the H-boat is interesting.  It would be lovely to use, and range wouldn't be a problem on a lake.  But a quick peek suggest that would cost north of $10,000 plus labour, and I wonder whether Torqeedo pods are more reliable than their fragile outboards?

4 hours ago, Bull City said:

J-Boats just announced the J/9, a 28-foot version of the J/100 (33-feet)

The new J/9 looks interesting, but t has a few design quirks that wouldn't appeal to me (that swim platform, job sheets not led aft), and these days most J-boats seem to me to excessively heavy.  They could learn a lot from Pogo structures on how to add lightness.

Also, the price is likely to be high.  The asking price for a 4–6yo used J/88 in the U.S. is over $100,000, which implies that a new J/9 will cost over $150,000.  Ouch.

Yachtworld lists a choice of Alerion 28s in the $70K–$90K price range, which looks more attractive to me.  There's also a 1992 Alerion 28 in Massachussets asking $39,900, which looks very tasty.  If the recent $9K price drop is due to a dead engine, then you have the opportunity to go electric and still end up at 1/3 the cost of a new J/9.

If it was my money, I'd be torn between that 1992 Alerion and the 1986 Aphrodite 101 at half the price.  And with J/9 money, something like the beautiful Guapa would become an option.

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If it was my money, I'd stay with the H boat and put the savings into good scotch.

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I think the later Alerions have a new keel design and F/W cooled engines? (Don't know the changeover date.)

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14 hours ago, Bull City said:

I'm also contemplating the Torqeedo/ePropulsion pod "inboard." 

Saw this thread by chance. Funny.
Someone already had a pod drive on a H-boat here in Europe.(site is in german)

Attachment is right below the companionway where they also installed the batteries and (solar) chargers which is a pretty central(of buoyancy) position and saves on long cable runs!

A decade later the old saildrive broke and the owner reported that the boat felt a little better without the saildrive behind the keel but with the caveat that it may be imagined as he has no numbers either way. In other words, not great for racing but also not terrible while sailing at the worst.
A more modern electric pod drive is even easier to install in the space(torqeedo has some for example) and less prone to mechanical issues.

Or did you mean an electric motor that can be pulled up into a shaft in the hull when not in use? The whole being closed by a bottom plate.
I have contemplated this option for my H-boat(but have shied away from it as the entire hull has been reworked in a yard a few years ago and still looks perfect. Kind of a shame to cut into it... for now).

Behind and aside the rudder post there is plenty space we usually don't use for anything(heavy at least) aside from fenders where a shaft could be easily fitted and the drive when not in use retracted into. This comes with the advantage of being within arms reach from a seated steering position. Even better when rigged with a simple pulley system to pull it up and down. Really, if it wasn't for cutting into the hull this would be my favorite. As is I am playing around with if you can raise and lower a transom mounted electric motor remotely with a pulley system.

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1 hour ago, allweather said:

A more modern electric pod drive is even easier to install in the space(torqeedo has some for example) and less prone to mechanical issues.

Or did you mean an electric motor that can be pulled up into a shaft in the hull when not in use? The whole being closed by a bottom plate.

Allweather, I've been thinking of a modern electric pod drive, like the Torqeedo or ePropulsion. The benefits would be (a) convenience, (b) better maneuverability, especially in reverse, (c) more power, and (d) aesthetics. There are some obstacles.

(a) Cost. It is hard to justify it, other than just "I want it." But I have been known to rationalize or overcome obstacles that way. (b) The pod drive itself is fairly new technology. I don't know how durable the pod is, especially when submerged for months on end. Also, Torqeedo says that you must not apply any paint to it. What about anti-fouling?  (c) Installation would be costly. I know of no one in the immediate area who could do it. The closest experienced boatwrights are a 3-4 hour drive.

I've been pleased with the Torqeedo. It's easy to mount and dismount. I store it in the cabin. I have three 900 Watt-hour batteries, so range is never a worry. 

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11 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

The new J/9 looks interesting, but t has a few design quirks that wouldn't appeal to me (that swim platform, job sheets not led aft), and these days most J-boats seem to me to excessively heavy. 

I agree on the sheets led aft. The swim platform actually has some appeal, especially considering my current swim-ladder arrangement. My wife would love it. You're probably right on displacement. I used to own a J/22, and the J/9's SA/DISP and DISP/LWL look a little better (27.3 vs 24.2 and 115.8 vs 116.5). The H-Boat is 19.1 and 161.0.

I have looked at the Alerion 28's (17.62 and 214.70) quite a bit. There is a lot to like, however, I'm not sure I like the interior lay out. I do like the cockpit.

On the auxiliary propulsion, the more I think about my use, etc., the more I am attracted to electric. If my venue were the coast, it would be diesel, but that's not on the radar.

 

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33 minutes ago, Bull City said:

What about anti-fouling? 

I don'T know about the torqeedo, but at least epropulsion states that the unit comes with an anti fouling coating already applied that is supposed to last years. So there is that.

About installation I am not sure what you worry about? The pods drive look to be simple three moderate holes to be drilled. One for the cable pass through and two bolts with which to fasten the entire unit. Sealant between and relatively straight forward, not all that different from installing through hulls/sea cocks.

Durability is the big one as you said. Can't exactly swap units easily without the boat being on the dry. And the price for the unit itself is rather hefty of an investment. Would suck if it breaks.(though at least batteries are seperate)

You mentioned shaft installation? What have you considered in that regard.

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1 minute ago, Bull City said:

On the auxiliary propulsion, the more I think about my use, etc., the more I am attracted to electric. If my venue were the coast, it would be diesel, but that's not on the radar.

I can understand that attraction to electric.  The idea of no-stink, no maintenance, near-silent, get-you-home propulsion is very attractive.  And on a lake, range need not be an issue: 5KWhr of battery should be ample.

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2 hours ago, allweather said:
2 hours ago, Bull City said:

What about anti-fouling? 

I don'T know about the torqeedo, but at least epropulsion states that the unit comes with an anti fouling coating already applied that is supposed to last years. So there is that.

There are options. We use McLube Antifoul Alternative on our Zodiac, it doesn't stop growth entirely but it is much reduced and what there is wipes off easily.

shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwouzMJUP16gFK6egqD

The downside is you would have to apply it once a month...

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1 hour ago, allweather said:

I don'T know about the torqeedo, but at least epropulsion states that the unit comes with an anti fouling coating already applied that is supposed to last years. So there is that.

About installation I am not sure what you worry about? The pods drive look to be simple three moderate holes to be drilled. One for the cable pass through and two bolts with which to fasten the entire unit. Sealant between and relatively straight forward, not all that different from installing through hulls/sea cocks.

Durability is the big one as you said. Can't exactly swap units easily without the boat being on the dry. And the price for the unit itself is rather hefty of an investment. Would suck if it breaks.(though at least batteries are seperate)

You mentioned shaft installation? What have you considered in that regard.

On the anti-fouling, ePropulsion says it comes with an "anti-corrosion" coating, which "Protects for years of saltwater use." I don't see anything about anti-fouling.

Both Torqeedo and ePropulsion say you should have a professional do the installation. I am far from a professional.

As you point out, if the Pod needs repair, you also need to get the boat to a facility where it can be hauled. That would be challenging without a motor.

If by "shaft installation" you mean using the lazarette to mount the Torqeedo or other outboard motor where it will be out of sight, I've thought about it, but decided against it. It would mean a lot of work and expense, and would bring its own problems.

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33 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

The downside is you would have to apply it once a month...

I don't suppose you can do that underwater.

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32 minutes ago, Bull City said:

I don't suppose you can do that underwater.

Nope.

I find it hard to believe there is no antifouling that would work with a pod. There must be something. Because that one thing makes it about 80% less desirable for many people.

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From the Torqeedo site:

Quote

The demands of corrosion protection are one of the key topics in the field of maritime leisure. High standards regarding material selection and design must be observed, especially in a salt water environment, in order to ensure functionality and a long service life. This applies particularly to electric motors since the combination of electricity and salt water can have an extremely destructive effect in the event of a malfunction of improper handling (leakage currents, incorrect earthing).

A distinction is generally made between three types of corrosion: electrochemical, galvanic and electrolytic. All three types can occur in salt water as well as fresh water, but the effects in salt water are far more destructive. Beside salt content, other factors such as pH value and temperature also play a role.

Electrochemical corrosion occurs, when a nail is placed in water and rusts. It is, therefore, the degradation that results when an easily corroding material comes into contact with water. This type of corrosion can be completely avoided through careful material selection. This is why we only use A4-grade stainless steel, salt water-resistant aluminium and extremely high-quality and impact-resistant plastics such as PBT (polybutylene terephthalate) below the waterline.
In order to achieve the best possible compromise between corrosion resistance, strength and hardness, we make sure to use only the best of what leading-edge steel technology currently offers for mechanically critical parts. For the propeller shaft, for example, this means 1.4044-grade special purpose steel; for the shaft sheath on the Cruise we even use 1.4571 grade with titanium, a steel that is also used in the construction of drive shafts for container and cruise ships. Even when the the parts that are submerged in water often have the additional protection of coatings such as anodisation and seawater resistant paints, we do not rely on the coating (as coatings can suffer mechanical damage) but make sure we select only corrosion-resistant articles when choosing basic materials.

Galvanic corrosion occurs when two conductive materials with different chemical properties carry a current and touch under water.

Galvanic corrosion cannot occur if any of these conditions do not hold true. This should make it quite clear how galvanic corrosion can be prevented. For example, all conductive materials can be insulated from each other or electrochemically identical materials can be used (no galvanic corrosion at all can occur between an aluminium pylon support and an aluminium shaft sheath). Nevertheless, the complete exclusion of galvanic corrosion demands great care in the design phase and is very complex at a number of points (e.g. insulating the propeller shaft from the pylon support).
This is why the much simpler principle of the galvanic (sacrificial) anode has found greater acceptance in the boating industry. A galvanic anode is an electrochemically base metal (e.g. zinc or magnesium) that is attached to the motor in such as way that the more noble metals are protected against galvanic corrosion. Over time, the galvanic anode disintegrates and must be replaced after a certain period.

Torqeedo has chosen to take the more sophisticated path in this respect. That's why the Travel is today the only outboard motor that functions without a galvanic anode. It is designed from start to finish in such a way that galvanic corrosion can be completely ruled out.

Electrolytic corrosion is the potentially the most destructive type of corrosion. It acts around 10,000 times faster than galvanic corrosion and can literally dissolve entire motors within a matter of days. That's the bad news.

The good news is that electrolytic corrosion is always due to wiring faults, especially to problems with earthing.

A common error is, for example, to connect the Cruise 4.0 to 4 serially wired 12 V lead batteries and then the on-board radio, too – which needs 12 V supply voltage. And in such a way that it's connected between the 3rd and 4th lead batteries (i.e. between 36 and 48 V). Since most simple electronic devices have their earth on the housing, a radio attached to the hull of an aluminium boat will result in a voltage difference of 36 V between the boat's hull and the motor earthing, which can lead to dramatic corrosive effects. This problem does not occur if the on-board radio is connected between 0 and 12 V (i.e. between the 1st and 2nd batteries).

Sounds remarkably close to magic.

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2 hours ago, Bull City said:

if the Pod needs repair, you also need to get the boat to a facility where it can be hauled

Just realized the worse part. .You'd need to be careful with the lifting straps as the aft ones are in the vicinity of any potential pod drive.(just saw one boat where they accidentally lifted over the drive shaft! Quite a bit damage...)

I seem to have misread the anti fouling issue. Don't know what they thought there as fouling concerns should be elementary. May have to ask the makers directly about it?

It probably would work just fine with paint but you'd lose warranty and that is a no no with such an expensive motor. That is my guesstimate anyway.
One could try Renolit's Dolphin S foil. Heard good things about it but nobody in my vicinity has properly used it yet as everyone still has functional anti fouling you'd need to remove first.

Anyway, if you'd need to have it repaired elsewhere... you'd just do it the same any sailboat with engine failure does? Sail close enough and get towed in or get towed all the way?(Joking, it is the H-boat. If sailing all the way is not viable I'd borrow an outboard from someone else :)

The relative rarity of the system however makes it more difficult as "repair" probably involves getting a new unit for a quick switch and/or sending the old one in for warranty/repair.
About needing a professional to install it. I'd ask Torqeedo about that. Often that is more a thing they say sometimes but is not necessary. Don't know about their particular set up, but I could imagine that they'd give you the go ahead to do it yourself. Otherwise it would be significantly more expensive as you said. Not really great.

Okay, with well/shaft in the lazarette ruled out that leaves only a clever mechanism you can operate from the cockpit to raise and lower the unit?

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3 hours ago, Bull City said:

I agree on the sheets led aft. The swim platform actually has some appeal, especially considering my current swim-ladder arrangement. My wife would love it. You're probably right on displacement. I used to own a J/22, and the J/9's SA/DISP and DISP/LWL look a little better (27.3 vs 24.2 and 115.8 vs 116.5). The H-Boat is 19.1 and 161.0.

I have looked at the Alerion 28's (17.62 and 214.70) quite a bit. There is a lot to like, however, I'm not sure I like the interior lay out. I do like the cockpit.

On the auxiliary propulsion, the more I think about my use, etc., the more I am attracted to electric. If my venue were the coast, it would be diesel, but that's not on the radar.

 

So while it’s 1000lbs heavier than the H-Boat, the J/9 also has got a longer waterline and a bunch more sail area.  It would bury either the H-Boat or the Alerion 28 upwind and in a race...so not sure the extra displacement is going to make the boat feel “unresponsive”

promo materials say a single sheet option is avail for the jib, which means its self tacking up wind, or self gybing downwind...granted, you need to be near the cabin top to sheet in or out, but a decent auto pilot should enable that...

I would guess Leggs is right about the price ...in the ballpark anyway, but outside of price, the J/9 seems a pretty compelling proposition for what Bull is looking for

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From the the thread in J Anarchy...

“From J Boats

Basic J9 - $105,900

J9 w/ Electric Inboard - $TBD

J9 w. Diesel Inboard - $125,850

Of course a list of options and add-on available too.”

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41 minutes ago, Crash said:

 the J/9 seems a pretty compelling proposition for what Bull is looking for

I had a J/22 and it sailed like dream, however, when the wind got above 10 knots or so, it was a little too dependent on crew weight. I imagine the J/9 will be a very good sailer, but a little tamer.

6 minutes ago, Crash said:

J9 w. Diesel Inboard - $125,850

That is better than I thought. Presumably, a Torqeedo/ePropulsion pod would not add as much as a diesel.

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41 minutes ago, Bull City said:

I had a J/22 and it sailed like dream, however, when the wind got above 10 knots or so, it was a little too dependent on crew weight. I imagine the J/9 will be a very good sailer, but a little tamer.

That is better than I thought. Presumably, a Torqeedo/ePropulsion pod would not add as much as a diesel.

Nothing wrong with reefing @10 knots...

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44 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Nothing wrong with reefing @10 knots...

True, but the H-Boat is much less dependent on crew weight - single handing in 10 to 12 knots with full sails is sweet. 

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2 hours ago, allweather said:

Okay, with well/shaft in the lazarette ruled out that leaves only a clever mechanism you can operate from the cockpit to raise and lower the unit?

Like a Harbor 20 - motor in the lazarette, flips out over the side:

 

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On 11/25/2020 at 7:41 AM, TwoLegged said:

Bull, I have been thinking about this thread, and have thought that some of the ideas might be leading you in a bad direction.  So I'm gonna pontificate a bit and throw out ideas.

 

What TwoLegged says.

+1 for the Aphrodite- and by extension other boats of similar style. A complete joy to sail- I miss mine all the time when it comes to casual sailing. Moves surprisingly well in a breeze you can barely feel, sails essentially straight into the wind, and super easy to single hand with the self tending jib and great maneuverability. Upwind will sail itself for extended periods- I would often wander about the deck with no hand on the tiller. A tiny inboard pushed it at 6 knots easily on ± a quart an hour. Limited accommodations (compared to higher freeboard/ wider/ heavier boats) and minimal headroom and ventilation are the minuses. But for short duration cruising in good weather...hard to beat.

There is something to be said for long, skinny, low boats you can get on and be sailing in 15 minutes.  

 

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7 hours ago, blurocketsmate said:

flips out over the side:

That's brilliant! Why haven't I seen this concept ever before?
Neatly gets around the need for cutting a hole in the hull and preserves the clean stern. We all know it is about that stern :D

Wonder how it could fit on the H-boat as the geometry is a little different. I need to get some cardboard to test it out right now.(well, when I'm back at the boat in a week.)
Could be a bit of a problem to figure out how to protect it from getting piled on as stuff thrown into the lazarette would invariably tend to drift towards it. But let's see if I can make it work. Certainly looks a fair bit more elegant than the other options I have been looking into.

Any concerns about the off center axis the prop would be at? Compared to one at the aft directly it is somewhat more outward.

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22 minutes ago, allweather said:

Any concerns about the off center axis the prop would be at? Compared to one at the aft directly it is somewhat more outward.

I thought all H's have the bracket for outboard offset so you can lift the motor and not hit the backstay?

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28 minutes ago, allweather said:

That's brilliant! Why haven't I seen this concept ever before?
Neatly gets around the need for cutting a hole in the hull and preserves the clean stern. We all know it is about that stern :D

Wonder how it could fit on the H-boat as the geometry is a little different. I need to get some cardboard to test it out right now.(well, when I'm back at the boat in a week.)
Could be a bit of a problem to figure out how to protect it from getting piled on as stuff thrown into the lazarette would invariably tend to drift towards it. But let's see if I can make it work. Certainly looks a fair bit more elegant than the other options I have been looking into.

Any concerns about the off center axis the prop would be at? Compared to one at the aft directly it is somewhat more outward.

Yes, brilliant set-up!

I don't think that an off centre outboard matters that much, it is just a glorified sculling oar and even if you abuse the throttle, nothing dramatic will happen.

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38 minutes ago, Upp3 said:

H's have the bracket for outboard offset so you can lift the motor and not hit the backstay?

That is the standard mount we have too. But it is offset by 20cm as opposed to closer to 80cm.

As Panoramix said, I am probably overthinking the issue. Biggest challenge is fitting things as a napkin sketch has shown the relatively greater freeboard and small hatch makes things... interesting.

Maybe a telescoping shaft? That would be somewhat less elegant depending on how exactly one does it, but seems like an easy fix for something that would then disappear below hatches and out of sight again.
Simplest I can think of is using one of those adjustable brackets trolling motors use. Bolt it to the arch that covers the distance from the hatch to outboards and the actual adjustable shaft then through it. Somewhat more elegant would be a proper telescoping one, but I still puzzle over how to best achieve that and keep it simple to avoid any hassles.

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I've been around H20s and sailed them plenty, but never actually used the motor.

I think the later ones had a clean swing, and I vaguely recall one being deployed by pulling a line.

I think the motor is turned a few degrees to compensate for being off center. If not, a few degrees of tiller wouldn't matter, like compensating for people sitting on one side.

It's not designed for extended motoring anyway - only to get you home if the wind dies, and Newport Harbor is only 3 miles long.

I've seen other small keelboats with side mounted motors, like Etchells, etc. I never got a good look at their mounts, or how they were deployed and stowed.

Anyway, I love the H20 idea, which could be adapted to other boats.

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While initially quite unimpressed with the scow 6.50 racers,  I’ve come to appreciate the vast accommodations that are possible with a short overall length.  Still need to fly light sails and you WILL find some wave periods that you will hate.

 

On another note,  this o/b arrangement has intrigued me for a long time.  Patented.  Haven’t seen much come of it though.

 

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2 hours ago, Veeger said:

While initially quite unimpressed with the scow 6.50 racers,  I’ve come to appreciate the vast accommodations that are possible with a short overall length.  Still need to fly light sails and you WILL find some wave periods that you will hate.

 

On another note,  this o/b arrangement has intrigued me for a long time.  Patented.  Haven’t seen much come of it though.

 

Then this is for you! (Totally safe to click, scow built at Berkeley Marine)

https://reddogyachts.com/

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53 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Then this is for you! (Totally safe to click, scow built at Berkeley Marine)

https://reddogyachts.com/

Every design has it’s strengths and weaknesses.  There are too few of these scow designs out there cruising to have an accumulated knowledge of their real vices and performance.  I’m dubious that a cruising version will have notable performance once loaded down.  How they ride at anchor, in a chop or whether they have any chance of going to windward in a seaway are all questions.  I can guess, however, I was wrong... once......

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Full disclosure. I have slobbered over this Swan 36 on many occasions:

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1969/nautor-swan-36-3016028/

It's probably at the upper end of what would make sense on my little lake, and I was worried about the 6'1" draft. A friend sails a 6'8" boat with no problems. Then I started looking at its ratios. It is a heavy mother, but what a beauty.

Over and out.

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6 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Full disclosure. I have slobbered over this Swan 36 on many occasions:

That's the sort of boat which should be bought by someone else, to be moored near you, sailed within sight of you, and to host you for cocktails.

Some other bugger can sweat over tacking those big headsails and maintaining all that varnish and paying the bills and dealing with the five million people a day who will ask "ooo, is that a Swan is it?  I love Swans, so I do, and my favourite Swan is".  

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

That's the sort of boat which should be bought by someone else, to be moored near you, sailed within sight of you, and to host you for cocktails.

 Some other bugger can sweat over tacking those big headsails and maintaining all that varnish and paying the bills and dealing with the five million people a day who will ask "ooo, is that a Swan is it?  I love Swans, so I do, and my favourite Swan is".  

But, but... it has a tiller!

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4 hours ago, Bull City said:

Full disclosure. I have slobbered over this Swan 36 on many occasions:

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1969/nautor-swan-36-3016028/

It's probably at the upper end of what would make sense on my little lake, and I was worried about the 6'1" draft. A friend sails a 6'8" boat with no problems. Then I started looking at its ratios. It is a heavy mother, but what a beauty.

Over and out.

If you and the admiral can handle it, why the hell not?

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4 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

That's the sort of boat which should be bought by someone else, to be moored near you, sailed within sight of you, and to host you for cocktails.

Some other bugger can sweat over tacking those big headsails and maintaining all that varnish and paying the bills and dealing with the five million people a day who will ask "ooo, is that a Swan is it?  I love Swans, so I do, and my favourite Swan is".  

He’s on a lake. Max the jib out at 115-120. 

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Bottom line is the right boat for the wrong job equals unhappiness...

I love Swans, and in particular the S&S Swans.  But Bull is on a lake.  In the mid Atlantic.  If you think the Chesapeake Bay is a light air nightmare in the summer, you should see an inland lake in the mid Atlantic.  While not a small lake, it is certainly not a Great Lake either.  I have to agree with Two Leggs, that as beautiful as all the CCA style, older boats are (and I do love the look, so I do...) they will not be very satisfying to sail on his lake.  If Bull moves to the coast of Maine (up by Kris Cringle) then he should, by all means, by such a boat.  But as long as he continues to live in NC and sail his lake, he should stick with a boat that sails and performs at least as well as his H-Boat, if not better.  A Swan 36, with a SA/Disp ratio of 14. something will be a dog most days, esp with a 115-120% jib.  Again, I love the boat (Swan 36), but it is definitively the wrong tool for the job...

The new J/9, an Alerion 28, one of Tim Lackey's conversions of a Shields into a overnighter, or what the hell, even a nicely painted up J-27, would be a much better tool for his needs...

For that matter, for the money he is talking about spending, I even think putting an electric oceanvolt type system, or a pure small diesel saildrive into his current H-boat might be a good answer too...

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3 hours ago, Crash said:

A Swan 36, with a SA/Disp ratio of 14. something will be a dog most days, esp with a 115-120% jib.  Again, I love the boat (Swan 36), but it is definitively the wrong tool for the job...

Precisely.  It will move only by engine.

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8 hours ago, Crash said:

For that matter, for the money he is talking about spending, I even think putting an electric oceanvolt type system, or a pure small diesel saildrive into his current H-boat might be a good answer too...

Or just get a boatyard to install an outboard motor well under the tiller. When I spent a couple of summers sailing the Baltic I saw a couple of H- boats that had done this. Probably a lot cheaper than the other options, if not quite as polished. 

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I'm not serious about the Swan, but I really admire it.

I got a call back from the J-Boat guy in N.C. about the J/9. He really didn't know much except that they have 12 orders, and the first boats are supposed to be delivered in April '21. 

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Guy in Annapolis (North Point) or Long Island/Rhode Island (McMichaels) may well know more/have some of the buyers of the 12 boats on order, and so may know more than NC guy does...

Also (at least at boat shows, etc) first Rod, and now Alan and Jeff are always willing to talk about their boats/help a potential/interesting client

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12? Not bad from renderings (and reputation) only...

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2 hours ago, Matagi said:

12? Not bad from renderings (and reputation) only...

Yes, indeed. AFAIK, sail plan, profile of under body, and interior plan are not available.

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I'd guess (and it really is a guess) that they are not yet "available" to the general public, and that the first couple J/9s that come out J/Boats has a deal with the owners to use/sail them in a development/test manner, and take lesson's learned back.  Then you'll see more detailed info available to gen public.  When J/99 was first a concept (at about the same place the J/9 is now), Jeff J showed me (former J/109 owner) more detailed drawings than were being shown to the average lookie-lou at the Annapolis Boat Show.  

J is pretty good at marketing, and knows how to feed info to the public to keep up anticipation and interest.  Plus, why have to listen to a bunch of "internet experts," especially the J haters here on Anarchy, disparage the boat/keel, etc as we all know they will do...before you have pics of it sailing, etc?

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I like the Hallberg-Rassy Mistral. I saw one in BC, asked the owner about it, and got a tour. It's my favorite of all the boats like it.

I like the old Swan 36 too, and that one's a beauty.  I can imagine being snuggled up behind a nice dodger, with that long tiller, and the jib winches right there.

Another thought - why not get a classic at a good price, and turbo it for lake use? If you're not going out in 25kt on purpose, why not optimize for 8kt or whatever?

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On 11/27/2020 at 8:52 AM, allweather said:

Wonder how it could fit on the H-boat as the geometry is a little different. I need to get some cardboard to test it out right now.

Does this count as thread highjacking? Should I start its own thread if/when I attempt a build?(and document it well enough. Usually I don‘t)

By todays tests with a lot of carboard, some wood and clamps and a lot of fiddling I think I may have a winner. Can be put in the water from the tiller, while standing, and you can reach the shaft once it is deployed while sitting in case you need to turn it. (I suppose you could mount the throttle there too)

Size constraints of the lazarette hatch means that the shaft needs to be telescoping(note the step in the carboard tubes for reference). That can be done so well that the extended state reaches down at least as far as a long shafted motor mounted at the transom does. On the pic I was limited by cardboard tube length. An additional 10-20cm should be in the cards. As is it already comes down to the top of the rudder  plenty I think!

Furthermore the motor pod needs to be turned backwards before stowing it in the lazarette. Both to fit the maxiumum shaft length as the hatch widens towards the cockpit and to accomodate the prop. 

In the picture I just took the max dimensions. The actual prop is not as fat, but I did contemplate adding a shroud for additional protection. (And if I get it right more thrust during lowmspeeds, more drag at higher speed though)

As is a little protection in the lazarette may be necessary to avoid anything sliding into the assembly. I usually store fenders and other light gear back there, so that should not be particularly difficult to achive. Possibly just some netting. 

Now need to take some accurate measurements and figure out whether to make it from glas/carbon or aluminium

5ABA836E-B85A-49CC-B934-FB55ED367DD9.jpeg

773D48F0-7573-4AA1-8CE4-37E45082EA99.jpeg

9CD4DFC6-B06D-4781-B23A-241927C0B6A3.jpeg

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On 12/4/2020 at 8:45 AM, Bull City said:

I'm not serious about the Swan, but I really admire it.

I got a call back from the J-Boat guy in N.C. about the J/9. He really didn't know much except that they have 12 orders, and the first boats are supposed to be delivered in April '21. 

yikes!  I bet they know the price!

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In a search for electric sailboats, I found this Bridges Point 24:

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1998/bridges-point-24-customized-by-french-webb-3731311/

If you don't need standing headroom, a private head, or truly modern performance, it may be better than other classics -- with a SA/D over 24, which surprised me:

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/bridges-point-24

Anyway, a really nice looking boat!

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Someone's already done it...maybe this is the answer for Bull?

H-Boat Ott Yacht in Liguria | Cutters used 48544 - iNautia

A small (maybe electic?) saildrive with controls near the tiller would be the perfect answer for the way Bull uses his boat....

I suspect the cost of selling the H-Boat and buying something else would represent more expense than installing a saildrive...but obviously, I'm just spit-balling here...

 

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^^ I have been eyeballing the Torqeedo and ePropulsion pod units. The Torqeedo would run about $10K; I asked one of the ePropulsion dealers, but haven't heard back. Very tempting. I've got some concerns about long term immersion and anti-fouling.

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14 minutes ago, Bull City said:

^^ I have been eyeballing the Torqeedo and ePropulsion pod units. The Torqeedo would run about $10K; I asked one of the ePropulsion dealers, but haven't heard back. Very tempting. I've got some concerns about long term immersion and anti-fouling.

I've been contemplating electric motor systems from Elco and Electric Yacht. My 1981 Volvo MD7A only has ~890 hrs on it so it might be a little while before I switch to electric, but I'm definitely planning to do so at some point.

 

https://www.elcomotoryachts.com/?mc_cid=91ccfa96c0&mc_eid=fd83654ce2

https://electricyacht.com/

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On 9/26/2020 at 7:55 PM, Cruisin Loser said:

CS are fine, fine boats. Premium designers, excellent attention to detail. 

Yes they are... I can't say it's a serious regret but I wistfully remember a CS30 that my wife and I were looking at and seriously considering when making the step to a keep-in-the-water big boat. Doesn't help that the same boat is now sailing our local waters... or more accurately, sailed our local waters for some years but is currently un-used and looking more & more neglected....

It's not the boat Bull i looking for, if he's looking in that price range I'd suggest the Alerion 28. They're very pretty and lots of fun to sail too, and enough roomier than the H-Boat to satisfy (probably)

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, Crash said:

Can't recall if this was brought up here earlier or not, but if so, I'm throwing it out there again..

Crash, that is a beauty, and an attractive price. I just saw it on the "old folks" thread. If I saw it 5 or 6 years ago, I would have been very interested, however, it really doesn't offer much than my H-Boat, except a diesel inboard, which is not important to me. Thanks for posting it.

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I got some information on the ePropulsion Pod Drive today. Very attractive pricing.

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1 hour ago, Bull City said:

Crash, that is a beauty, and an attractive price. I just saw it on the "old folks" thread. If I saw it 5 or 6 years ago, I would have been very interested, however, it really doesn't offer much than my H-Boat, except a diesel inboard, which is not important to me. Thanks for posting it.

Bull,

I concur, that functionally, it doesn't offer much (except the inboard) over the H-Boat.   Aesthetically, it seems to offer that "traditional wooden boat" look that you seem to get hooked on.  But I can also see that unless you are upsizing to gain real weekending comfort, the case of aesthetics is hard to make.  Plus the H-Boat is certainly good looking (in a different way) in its own right.

Crash

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3 hours ago, Bull City said:

I got some information on the ePropulsion Pod Drive today. Very attractive pricing.

I started a topic "ePropulsion Pod Drive."  

BTW, beware of Sailing Anarchy. I counted 5 topic titles containing the word "cunt" before I even had to scroll. Is there something going on?

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58 minutes ago, Bull City said:

I started a topic "ePropulsion Pod Drive."  

BTW, beware of Sailing Anarchy. I counted 5 topic titles containing the word "cunt" before I even had to scroll. Is there something going on?

Just a localized infection. It'll be gone in a week.

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13 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Just a localized infection. It'll be gone in a week.

A little opium might help.

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5 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Just a localized infection. It'll be gone in a week.

Someone said that several months ago, hasn't worked out so well (for youse in the US)......

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