ScowVegas

Falsification of Race Data

Recommended Posts

So here is a scenario for the Racing Rules Sailing armchair lawyers.

 

During the course of a distance race, where the competitors are being instructed by the SI's and the RC to record their finish times and report those time to the RC for PRHF/Handicap scoring, What rule is broken if a competitor is found to have falsified their finish times to their benefit?   Besides the obvious 69

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The basice tenamentes of sailleng our brocken when you loose the respectte of youre competitores.                                                      :)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The race's Sailing Instructions. Those are rules. Often #11 The Finish. The SI's normally reference the RRS to drag in all the boiler plate stuff.

You are going to need strong evidence. if it goes to committee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

The race's Sailing Instructions. Those are rules. Often #11 The Finish. The SI's normally reference the RRS to drag in all the boiler plate stuff.

You are going to need strong evidence. if it goes to committee.

Yeah, the burden of proof is on the person making the accusations  - the boat ahead and the boat behind have already established the competitor's reported finish time is inaccurate. the question is, was it intentional to knowingly provide false information for the benefit of the boat's race standing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The intention of the accused competitor is very tough to prove. Better to seek redress for scoring errors. (Did it make a difference?) Two other boats in good position to observe the error should be enough for a protest committee to issue redress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No you can't do that.

You can't morph a request for redress into a protest.

A boat shall not be penalised without a protest hearing (rule 63.1).

The SI will doubtless say something like 'Boats shall record their finishing times and report them to the race committee'.

If you get evidence of a window, from boat in front and boat behind, and the reported time is outside that window, then the reported time is not the boat's finishing time and the boat has failed to comply with the SI.  That conclusion is enough to disqualify the boat.

You can certainly protest for rule 2, but you will need at least something more, such as evidence of intention that negatives the 'honest mistake guv' defence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you asked the offending competitor why his reported finishing time is factually incorrect as demonstrated by the times of the boats finishing before and after? Is there any possibility it is an error which, if brought to light, might result in a revision of the reported time or withdrawal? I for one would be highly embarrassed to be called out on such a blatant mistake/intent to cheat/problem. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Brass said:

No you can't do that.

You can't morph a request for redress into a protest.

A boat shall not be penalised without a protest hearing (rule 63.1).

The SI will doubtless say something like 'Boats shall record their finishing times and report them to the race committee'.

If you get evidence of a window, from boat in front and boat behind, and the reported time is outside that window, then the reported time is not the boat's finishing time and the boat has failed to comply with the SI.  That conclusion is enough to disqualify the boat.

You can certainly protest for rule 2, but you will need at least something more, such as evidence of intention that negatives the 'honest mistake guv' defence.

How many successful protest have there been for a rule 2 violation? 

I do not remember any in recent history

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, apophenia said:

According to the 2021 edition of RRS, Rules 2, 28 and 69

How do you think a boat might break rule 28?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Check the allowed causes for redress (rule 62.1) - I don't think any apply here. 

I agree that the first action should be to talk to the other boat, maybe it was just a goof that they're willing to correct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Brass said:

How do you think a boat might break rule 28?

Quote

28 SAILING THE RACE

28.1 A boat shall start, sail the course and then finish. While doing so, she
may leave on either side a mark that does not begin, bound or end the
leg she is sailing. After finishing she need not cross the finishing line
completely.

28.2 A boat may correct any errors in sailing the course, provided she has
not crossed the finishing line to finish.

In this case, rule 28 seems to be violated by not sailing the course. And then failing to correct this error prior to finishing.

 

(Quoting from: https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS20212024Final-[26369].pdf )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, ScowVegas said:

So here is a scenario for the Racing Rules Sailing armchair lawyers.

 

During the course of a distance race, where the competitors are being instructed by the SI's and the RC to record their finish times and report those time to the RC for PRHF/Handicap scoring, What rule is broken if a competitor is found to have falsified their finish times to their benefit?   Besides the obvious 69

I'm curious if your SI's included recording the boat in front and the boat behind. In a distance race it may not matter because boats may not be close enough to know. But I'm only curious, it has no bearing on your original question.

Your question isn't how do you rectify it, but what rule was broken. The SI rule requiring the recording of finish times was not broken: the boat recorded their finish time (even if it was deliberately wrong or erroneous). I think as others have said, *if* it were proven that a boat changed their time deliberately, then it's Rule 2 at the very least, and I suspect even 69.1b (unethical behavior). Protest and requests for redress time limits seem problematic in a situation like this because a boat may not know to protest until the results are published. 

Editorializing: On our boat, we've gotten in the habit of taking a picture of the chart plotter showing the boat's position and the current date and time to submit as evidence if requested. I've seen some SI's that have stated that the RC may request a copy of the boat's GPS data, but I've never seen it enforced. I'd hate to think anyone would deliberately misreport their time, and I'd hope that it was a transcription error. I hope you can keep us up to date as to the outcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, ryley said:

I'm curious if your SI's included recording the boat in front and the boat behind. In a distance race it may not matter because boats may not be close enough to know. But I'm only curious, it has no bearing on your original question.

Your question isn't how do you rectify it, but what rule was broken. The SI rule requiring the recording of finish times was not broken: the boat recorded their finish time (even if it was deliberately wrong or erroneous). I think as others have said, *if* it were proven that a boat changed their time deliberately, then it's Rule 2 at the very least, and I suspect even 69.1b (unethical behavior). Protest and requests for redress time limits seem problematic in a situation like this because a boat may not know to protest until the results are published. 

Editorializing: On our boat, we've gotten in the habit of taking a picture of the chart plotter showing the boat's position and the current date and time to submit as evidence if requested. I've seen some SI's that have stated that the RC may request a copy of the boat's GPS data, but I've never seen it enforced. I'd hate to think anyone would deliberately misreport their time, and I'd hope that it was a transcription error. I hope you can keep us up to date as to the outcome.

The RC needs to determine the correct finish time and correct it 

90.3

  1. (c)  When the race committee determines from its own records or observations that it has scored a boat incorrectly, it shall correct the error and make the corrected scores available to competitors.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, ryley said:

The SI rule requiring the recording of finish times was not broken: the boat recorded their finish time (even if it was deliberately wrong or erroneous).

I could probably convince myself that a boat that recorded and reported a time which was not her actual finish time (whether deliberately or accidentally) did not comply with the SI. Otherwise the SI is more or less meaningless, if any boat can report any time they like without breaking the SI.

Also note - a boat cannot protest on rule 69 (see 69.1(c)). They can make an allegation to the protest committee and the committee will decide whether to hold a hearing. I don't believe there's any time limit on reporting an alleged breach of rule 69.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, VWAP said:

The RC needs to determine the correct finish time and correct it 

90.3

  1. (c)  When the race committee determines from its own records or observations that it has scored a boat incorrectly, it shall correct the error and make the corrected scores available to competitors.

I that a problem? Can the RC consider the evidence (accusations) from the other two boats?

Also, I would want some evidence that the other two boats were impartial, had their own correct time, etc. Time stamped photos can be BS. Including a GPS display in the pic might be persuasive. Pics of the boat positions on the course around that time would be best.

RC should amend the SI's to require boats to take the times of following boat(s).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, ryley said:

Editorializing: On our boat, we've gotten in the habit of taking a picture of the chart plotter showing the boat's position and the current date and time to submit as evidence if requested. I've seen some SI's that have stated that the RC may request a copy of the boat's GPS data, but I've never seen it enforced. I'd hate to think anyone would deliberately misreport their time, and I'd hope that it was a transcription error. I hope you can keep us up to date as to the outcome.

We have submitted GPS data as evidence in a protest. Both fixes with location, speed, and bearing at time, as well as a graphic of our track.

Did it make a difference? Sure didn’t hurt.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/26/2020 at 4:59 PM, ScowVegas said:

So here is a scenario for the Racing Rules Sailing armchair lawyers.

 

During the course of a distance race, where the competitors are being instructed by the SI's and the RC to record their finish times and report those time to the RC for PRHF/Handicap scoring, What rule is broken if a competitor is found to have falsified their finish times to their benefit?   Besides the obvious 69

Who cares.....  So the Shitstain YC doesn't have a RC that's interested in finishing a distance race??  I've been though this stuff before....going back to being a USYRU Judge and trying to sort out this crap out where boats "take their own time"......  WTF....  drop it, it doesn't matter and don't waste the jury's time.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, apophenia said:

In this case, rule 28 seems to be violated by not sailing the course. And then failing to correct this error prior to finishing.

We can all read the rule.

In the OP scenario:

  • In what way did the boat not start in accordance with the definition?

A boat starts when, her hull having been entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal, and having complied with rule 30.1 if it applies, any part of her hull crosses the starting line from the pre-start side of the course side.

  • In what way did the boat not sail the course in accordance with the definition?
A boat sails the course provided that a string representing her track from the time she begins to approach the starting line from its prestart side to start until she finishes, when drawn taut,
  1. passes each mark of the course for the race on the required side and in the correct order,
  2. touches each mark designated in the sailing instructions to be a rounding mark, and
  3. passes between the marks of a gate from the direction of the course from the previous mark.
  • In what way did the boat not finish in accordance with the definition

A boat finishes when, after starting, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she

  1. takes a penalty under rule 44.2,
  2. corrects an error in sailing the course made at the line, or;
  3. continues to sail the course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair point. In my mind, reporting that you crossed the finish line at a different time from which you did in a race where you are required to report your start and finish is equivalent to failing to finish.

 

I still have much to learn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Huggy Bear Brown said:

Who cares.....  So the Shitstain YC doesn't have a RC that's interested in finishing a distance race??  I've been though this stuff before....going back to being a USYRU Judge and trying to sort out this crap out where boats "take their own time"......  WTF....  drop it, it doesn't matter and don't waste the jury's time.

Due to COVID, there are YCs that are running races with self-reported starts and finishes to avoid crowding a bunch of people in a committee boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/26/2020 at 6:15 PM, ScowVegas said:

Yeah, the burden of proof is on the person making the accusations  - the boat ahead and the boat behind have already established the competitor's reported finish time is inaccurate. the question is, was it intentional to knowingly provide false information for the benefit of the boat's race standing

How have the boat ahead and behind established the competitor’s reported time is inaccurate?

What facts or evidence have been brought forward showing that the boat ahead and the boat behind have more accurate time keeping and recording methods.

Absent that, what has been established is that the three recorded times are inconsistent. That does not establish which of the three is inaccurate. They may all three be inaccurate.

If any of them are inaccurate the reasons could range from intentional to accidental.

Not all errors are conspiracies. Yesterday I ran a frustrating errand as in my haste I reversed the numbers in an address...no malintent but unfortunate consequences.

The clock on my dash reads the “correct” time while the time on my satnav is not adjusted for daylight savings ...using that one by accident would mess my schedule without any ill intent.

As Sail2Win suggested, a pleasant toned inquiry with the skipper of the perceived offending boat might be the best starting point.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, A3A said:

What difference do times make when PHRF ratings are mostly made up anyway?

Looke who nose so muche............                                :)

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know this isn't constructive and doesn't attempt to answer the question (sorry OP):

1) Who cares? It's a fun exercise to get people out on the water.

2) If "RC" doesn't want to take times due to a crowded boat do you really think they want to deal with a protest room?

3) Volunteer to be RC next time if you don't feel like the self-reporting works and nobody else wants to do it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/26/2020 at 1:59 PM, ScowVegas said:

So here is a scenario for the Racing Rules Sailing armchair lawyers.

 

During the course of a distance race, where the competitors are being instructed by the SI's and the RC to record their finish times and report those time to the RC for PRHF/Handicap scoring, What rule is broken if a competitor is found to have falsified their finish times to their benefit?   Besides the obvious 69

I always found it sad when a club puts on races and not enough volunteers are around to take shifts finishing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

I always found it sad when a club puts on races and not enough volunteers are around to take shifts finishing.

Adgreeded!  Up the budgette on foode/drinkes to gette them oute theire.  They ussualley gette hooked on the fun an comroderey.      (so it hasse to be fun...)                :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something different was a PRO adjusting the finishing times of one boat so the score line is 1,2,3,4,5,6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

Adgreeded!  Up the budgette on foode/drinkes to gette them oute theire.  They ussualley gette hooked on the fun an comroderey.      (so it hasse to be fun...)                :)

u have to get the right volunteers

 

d7b6c4673179ecbe428e008009e2506d.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/27/2020 at 11:14 PM, apophenia said:

Due to COVID, there are YCs that are running races with self-reported starts and finishes to avoid crowding a bunch of people in a committee boat.

Oh good grief.....  grab a beer and take a sunset cruise around the harbor.....  Self reported starts and finishes?  Glad I hung it up....what could go wrong...  "Avoid crowding a bunch of people in a committee boat"???.....  I took my turn as RC Chair for a couple of years at a +500 member club.....took two paid staff to run Pin Head races with boats from another large YC....three divisions of Pin Head's  getting good starts and finishes along with running races for a decent one-design fleet.  My bro left his Pin Head boat on the hard this year as he knew if was going to be a clown show....looks like he was right.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is this just a hypothetical question or is there an actual controversy here?  And if so, what evidence or circumstances make the OP believe that the reported results are falsified? 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now