fsiljelof

Best way to get code zero luff tension?

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I’m getting a 65% code for next season, what is my best option to get enough luff tension? I have 2 spinnaker halyards, I’d prefer not to go to 2:1 as I use both for spinnakers, but perhaps that is my best option? If I do go 2:1 can I realistically hoist a spinnaker from it - or will that leave me with one halyard for each sail?
 

If I go with 2:1, can I skip a tack line and just snap the furler directly to the bowsprit/ bobstay?  As I have symmetrical kites I will never use the code to go downwind more than say TWA 110 
 

I’m getting a custom 60cm bowsprit so there is an option for 2:1 or more in the tack line/ bobstay - if this is the better way, what’s a smart design? I’m seeing many different solutions. 
 

The boat is a Prima 38 (with symmetrical spinnakers) the code will be 75m2 and hoisted at 15.5m the sailcloth will be Maxikote polyester as laminates will be costly in our rating system.

Current halyard is Dyneema 10mm SK75   do I need something with even less stretch?

Appreciate any hints as I’ve never had any code sails onboard.

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You will be able to get plenty of tension on it without a 2:1 with the winch.  Yes you can go straight to the sprit, but it will be a pain to do peels.  The big advantage to that set up is the drum won't spin freely.

 

If you feel you need a 2:1 set it up at the tack.  Less line and it  helps keep the furler stable.

Also when you're setting up your furling line make sure you have back pressure on it with a bungie tied to a stanchion/stay/etc.  This will save you a world of issues with the furler.

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I have tried several methods on my boat which is a fractional rig with masthead asyms. Initially I set it up with a 2:1 halyard. Had problems getting the sail down. Seems that the halyard twisted around itself 4 or 5 times and set up hard. When tension was released the halyard did not untwist. Lots of pulling and cursing ensued.  Once I went up the mast during a race to untwist it enough to get it to start down.

 
Then I went to a single part halyard but mounted a 4 part tackle at the base of the mast. Cranked the sail up as tight as I could get it with the halyard winch mounted on the mast. Locked it, took the halyard off the winch and attached it to the upper block of the tackle with a bowline on a bite. Then led the working end to the winch and cranked hard. This setup put a lot of tension on the halyard but took time to setup.
 
The current setup is a 3:1 at the tack, lead back to the winch on the mast. Not quite as much tension as the 4 part tackle but seems to be enough and easier and faster to setup.
 
If you haven't ordered the code 0 yet an alternative might be a elliptical luff code zero. My understanding is that they do not require nearly as much halyard tension and still furl nicely. The question is: would it be as close winded as a cabled code zero. Elvstrom has them in their line.

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Could consider 2 tack lines?  One with a 2:1 or more purchase for code zero and another straight line for the Asyms.

Putting in a 2:1 is pretty easy on the tack line.  Just put a block with a snap shackle onto the tack line and have it terminate at end of the poll with another block (or antal ring) at the end of the pole.  Can easily remove.  In light air, we can adjust the tack line by hand with this set up on my 40 footer with 1350sq ft kites.

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I have a new C0 that I originally set up tacked directly to the pole and then used the halyard to get the tension. Not efficient. Hoist on a single purchase halyard and use a 2:1 tack line. That makes sure you've got the sail hoisted properly and then you can get pretty much as much tension as you want hauling down with the tack line. I know one person who gets the tension they think they need and then puts on a bit of backstay.

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Ensure the new bowsprit is well supported.  I broke my bow off by applying too much luff tension (my sprit was not well supported and I didn't think it through when putting a cascade on the bobstay).   

Depending on halyard location for the zero, you might get some additional luff tension with the backstay.  

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Also, leave your backstay off while boning up your Code-0 then load it up once you get as much as you can from the halyard or tack.

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Yah, the simplest method is to tack the furler directly to the bowsprit; hoist the zero; take the halyard to a winch, release the backstay; grind the halyard, then grunt on the backstay.

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@MultiThom and @solosailor my spinnaker halyard is a fractional halyard (Seaqust Prima 38) the mast is pretty stiff (carbon) and I do have pretty powerfull 48:1 backstay - but still with the  fractional code zero - do think the backstay along with a grinded single halyard alone (no cascade at the tackline) will give me enough tension to sai the higher angles? I'm hoping to hoist at perhaps TWA 70 in light air <6 or 8 knots of wind.  

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10 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Yah, the simplest method is to tack the furler directly to the bowsprit; hoist the zero; take the halyard to a winch, release the backstay; grind the halyard, then grunt on the backstay.

This is exactly what we do on the SF3600. We just use a 1:1 kite halyard with a T8 on the end which is a tapered SK78 halyard with 8mm core and a poly/technora jacket which runs through a constrictor. Our 64:1 backstay is also pretty powerful 

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Single line halyard with a 2:1 tack is the most common set-up I've seen . Just used a system over the weekend with a single line tack that exits out the end of the bowsprit with a Tylaska clip for 1:1 use on the kite but it has a Dyneema loop on the end of the sprit that you clip that Tylaska back onto to create a 2:1 purchase than is then slotted into the bottom of our KZ furler...

Using the backstay seems to be a less than perfect solution that adds more steps to each maneuver. If you're getting a custom bowsprit then I'd think this set-up with the interchangeable 1:1 - 2:1 system should be quite easily achieved and at 60cm long your bowman should be able to change it over without having to shimmy out on the sprit.

 

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4 hours ago, fsiljelof said:

@MultiThom and @solosailor my spinnaker halyard is a fractional halyard (Seaqust Prima 38) the mast is pretty stiff (carbon) and I do have pretty powerfull 48:1 backstay - but still with the  fractional code zero - do think the backstay along with a grinded single halyard alone (no cascade at the tackline) will give me enough tension to sai the higher angles? I'm hoping to hoist at perhaps TWA 70 in light air <6 or 8 knots of wind.  

Yah, with a fractional halyard, the backstay may not add much to the tension since the backstay is bowing the middle of your mast forward.   You likely should ask your sailmaker what he recommends.  There are some tricks in luff construction that can help (my fave is to make the luff reinforce line a tiny bit too long so the fabric luff stretches before being stopped--of course that shortens the sail's longevity).  

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1 hour ago, MultiThom said:

Yah, with a fractional halyard, the backstay may not add much to the tension since the backstay is bowing the middle of your mast forward.   You likely should ask your sailmaker what he recommends.  There are some tricks in luff construction that can help (my fave is to make the luff reinforce line a tiny bit too long so the fabric luff stretches before being stopped--of course that shortens the sail's longevity).  

If your rig isn't really tight (like most multihulls), the zero can be made with a shorter luff so that the zero/halyard actually replaces the forestay (forestay is slack with zero up), in which case the backstay does add tension even with a fractional halyard.  Some folks use the furling torque rope to add tension by - after zero deployment- you add turns to the furling drum as if furling it and cleat furling line securely.  That tightens things up; of course, if there is a lull the sail might partially furl :0 and when you are ready to release, the sail furls itself pretty quickly when you uncleat the sheet.    

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I've been struggling with our 2:1 spin hal twisting with our Code this season as well. It's definitely the halyard. This thread inspires me to find a way to get a 2:1 tack situation going. Thanks for the great thread!

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Start by un-twisting the halyard. Every time the halyard is wound around a winch, you are puttin 4-6 full turns in the rope. These travel up the halyard (by some magic) and concentrate at the bitter end. Go up the mast, un pin the dead end, and un twist the rope. Watch the outer cover/tracer lines to see the twists. Undo all & continue to counter twist about ten turns. Re- pin the dead end. Your 2:1 will now get all the way to 2 block without twists.

Note: this rope behavior occurs on any line that goes on/off a winch - each cycle adds twists

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On 9/27/2020 at 7:31 PM, MultiThom said:

Yah, the simplest method is to tack the furler directly to the bowsprit; hoist the zero; take the halyard to a winch, release the backstay; grind the halyard, then grunt on the backstay.

one thing I like about the 2:1 tack over the halyard method is that it's easier to see where the tack is than the head when you're grinding.

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23 hours ago, longy said:

Start by un-twisting the halyard. Every time the halyard is wound around a winch, you are puttin 4-6 full turns in the rope. These travel up the halyard (by some magic) and concentrate at the bitter end. Go up the mast, un pin the dead end, and un twist the rope. Watch the outer cover/tracer lines to see the twists. Undo all & continue to counter twist about ten turns. Re- pin the dead end. Your 2:1 will now get all the way to 2 block without twists.

Note: this rope behavior occurs on any line that goes on/off a winch - each cycle adds twists

I have tried damn near everything. I dropped it, dragged it behind the boat for 5 miles and rehoisted it. It was the only thing that reduced it. Cleaned the swivel, sacrificed rum to Poseidon, and still nothing.

Undoing is also a bit more work as it's luggage tagged rather than pinned. Max's idea of putting a swivel at the bitter end seems inspired. Need to think about that.

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22 minutes ago, penumbra said:

I have tried damn near everything. I dropped it, dragged it behind the boat for 5 miles and rehoisted it. It was the only thing that reduced it. Cleaned the swivel, sacrificed rum to Poseidon, and still nothing.

Undoing is also a bit more work as it's luggage tagged rather than pinned. Max's idea of putting a swivel at the bitter end seems inspired. Need to think about that.

Some of the furling systems use a simple stick that twacks the mast to keep it from turning.  Some also have a similar stick that twacks an immobile part of the furling drum to keep that from twisting.  

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1 hour ago, penumbra said:

I have tried damn near everything. I dropped it, dragged it behind the boat for 5 miles and rehoisted it. It was the only thing that reduced it. Cleaned the swivel, sacrificed rum to Poseidon, and still nothing.

Undoing is also a bit more work as it's luggage tagged rather than pinned. Max's idea of putting a swivel at the bitter end seems inspired. Need to think about that.

Run it thru a washing machine & end for end the halyard

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If it's still not un-twisting then the core might have twisted inside the cover. Only way to know for sure is to lay it out and look down it to see if there are any twists in it. 

 

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It also helps to not coil the line. When my screacher is up, the halyard is flaked across the cockpit floor, but I have a cat and room to do that. 
 

Smyth’s advice is to throw the halyard overboard behind the boat as has been mentioned. 
 

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2:1 on the tack line with some separation to aid in twist stopping. 

7E18A337-717E-4525-AF27-AC118CB3D19E.jpeg

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On 10/1/2020 at 3:26 AM, Max Rockatansky said:

It also helps to not coil the line. When my screacher is up, the halyard is flaked across the cockpit floor,

While on prevention, coiling in big zeroes is one of the primary ways this happens(adding a twist with every turn pulled off. Like with garden hose for better visualisation). The easy fix practiced on every larger boat is to coil it up in figure eights. Usually over a winch for easier handling. That way the turns cancel out each other.

The second most common way I have seen this is when taking turns off of a winch fast. Most people more or less "flick" off the last few turns once there isn't a lot of tension on the sheet/stay/halyard anymore and that causes the same twists as coiling in zeroes. Easily preventible, or at least to minimize by taking off each turn the same way you put them on.

That stopped it from happening to me fairly reliably and what I picked up from the bigger boats in my place.

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6 hours ago, allweather said:

While on prevention, coiling in big zeroes is one of the primary ways this happens(adding a twist with every turn pulled off. Like with garden hose for better visualisation). The easy fix practiced on every larger boat is to coil it up in figure eights. Usually over a winch for easier handling. That way the turns cancel out each other.

Exactly, Coiling the line without adding twists just needs to be done by switching hand positions--over/under--that way the twists cancel while coiling (ends up looking like 8s).  However, you still add twists one direction when you wrap and secure.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-TV9cnzI3E

 

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On 9/28/2020 at 5:41 PM, penumbra said:

I've been struggling with our 2:1 spin hal twisting with our Code this season as well. It's definitely the halyard. This thread inspires me to find a way to get a 2:1 tack situation going. Thanks for the great thread!

On a lot of smaller boats, folks add 2:1 on the halyard from below using a cunningham.  Basically just tie a loop in the halyard above the clutch and hook with a cascade from the deck.  Puts a lot of pressure on the sheave, though.  

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1 hour ago, MultiThom said:

On a lot of smaller boats, folks add 2:1 on the halyard from below using a cunningham.  Basically just tie a loop in the halyard above the clutch and hook with a cascade from the deck.  Puts a lot of pressure on the sheave, though.  

I should mention that these smaller boats don't have winches.

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