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Santana20AE

Soverel 27

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With the Santana 20, suffering major damage and Getaway (S2 7.9) a write off, It may well be time for a new boat.  

I have thought about larger boats for some time but have decided, I don’t want major systems and major headaches.  Also, I want a boat that I can reasonably pick up and take home.  Forget larger.  (Than the S2) The only boat I can think of that might meet the criteria and be reasonably affordable is the Soverel 27.  The Soverel is light enough to tow (3900lbs advertised Displacement)  Narrow enough to tow (not exactly but being 3 inches over, who is going to quibble) and has an inboard so I won’t have to fight the outboard issues.  Draft is 5 feet, which might be an issue on Caney Creek Lake but heck, maybe we can spring for a deeper slip. (Dept at the end of our dock is normally about 6 1/2 feet)  Of course trailer launching will just not be happening. Keel stepped mast is also a potential issue.  

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Soverel.  And a big question, does it have a solid hull or a cored hull?  With a reefed main and a blade, could she be handled by a slightly over middle age couple with decades of sailing experience?  (Well maybe a touch older than slightly over middle age, how bout Very old but still pretty and Ancient.)

Oh we are retired so money is not unlimited

  

 

 

 

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I’ve always had the Sov 27 on my list.  Great light air boats.  Not sure, but given displacement, have to think the hull is cored. I would have to think that if you guys can sail the 7.9, you’ll have no issues sailing the Sov with a blade and boarded out main, nevermind with a reef.

Crash

 

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Soverel 27, great looking boat, I'm sure a fine choice. Olson 25 comes to mind as a great boat in that genre. There's one at my marina I admire. Perhaps not many on the East Coast though. 

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The brochure says vinyl ester resin in layup, which is a good thing.

The Soverel 27 has lots of horsepower, so she should sail nicely even in light air with a blade and main.

The only real drawback I can think of is that it has an in-line double spreader rig with check stays which makes things a bit more complex.

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You might want to look at a tartan pride 27 i think they are pretty close to the same specs.78025E9E-0893-441C-9F2B-7639EBC2A970.jpeg.f2927217a528cf1644b050065210fe00.jpeg

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The Tartan Pride is a Chance design.  Funny that Tartan would go to Chance for a boat design.

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How about an Evelyn 26?

Great light air boat, 4.5' draft, tow-able.

 

 

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14 hours ago, ROADKILL666 said:

You might want to look at a tartan pride 27 i think they are pretty close to the same specs.

I believe the Soverel 27 was basically the Soverel 26 (built by Soverel) but built by Tartan.  Tartan bought a number of the Soverel molds after Bill Soverel died and they built and sold under the Soverel name for a number of years.  I know they built the Soverel 30 and sold them as class racing boats for a good while.

     When you say the Tartan Pride 27 specs are pretty close to the Soverel 27, they might be pretty much the same boat, but renamed as Tartans.

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22 minutes ago, SVArcturus said:

I believe the Soverel 27 was basically the Soverel 26 (built by Soverel) but built by Tartan.  Tartan bought a number of the Soverel molds after Bill Soverel died and they built and sold under the Soverel name for a number of years.  I know they built the Soverel 30 and sold them as class racing boats for a good while.

     When you say the Tartan Pride 27 specs are pretty close to the Soverel 27, they might be pretty much the same boat, but renamed as Tartans.

SV,

Not sure how you drew that conclusion. 

Sov 26 has a 10.10 ft beam and displaces 4750 lbs and has an IOR bustle feature aft

Sov 27 has a 8.75 ft beam and displaces 3900 lbs and is a MORC design

Tartan Pride has a 8.5 ft beam and displaces 3800 lbs.  Plus it has a hard bow knuckle that Sov 27 doesn't have....

Sovs were designed by Mark Soveral, the Pride was designed by Britt Chance.

Pretty sure they are totally 3 different designs/boats.  But I've been wrong before :rolleyes:

Crash

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Definitely 3 different boats and hull shapes. All three pretty good boats for cheap PHRFing 

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The three or four that were racing at our club all had different ways to hold the hull to deck seam together.  I have seen angle iron and different wire designs all owner installed.  Not sure if it was a prevelant problem with them or just this fleet.  They did well in light air which we usually have on Long Island Sound in the summertime series

 

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The same was the story (the deck and build issues) with the Sov 33.  The Olsen built ones were lighter, but always seemed to need bulkhead and deck work.  The Tartan built Soveral 33's were bomb proof.  It may be the same with the 27, Tartan has always built great boats.

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19 hours ago, oldskool said:

The same was the story (the deck and build issues) with the Sov 33.  The Olsen built ones were lighter, but always seemed to need bulkhead and deck work.  The Tartan built Soveral 33's were bomb proof.  It may be the same with the 27, Tartan has always built great boats.

 Most Tartan built T-10s had to be rebuilt.

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Tartan 10 were not built to be an offshore boat but people raced them pretty hard

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On 9/29/2020 at 9:03 AM, ROADKILL666 said:

You might want to look at a tartan pride 27 i think they are pretty close to the same specs.78025E9E-0893-441C-9F2B-7639EBC2A970.jpeg.f2927217a528cf1644b050065210fe00.jpeg

NO

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5 minutes ago, USA 236 said:

NO

Completely different boat...but fairly similar numbers which I think is what Roadkill was referring to. For example, beyond LOA:

                      Pride 270    Sov 27

SAD:                  26.7           23.5

Disp                   3800          3900

Beam                   8.50          8.75

D/L                       132           165

I                             35              35

J                            10.2          10.0

P                             37.5           33.5

E                             12.0           11.2

So on paper pretty similar other than the Pride 270 has higher SAD and lower D/L.  Should be a lot faster, but from what I have read about them, the Pride 270 is very tender and no one has been able to really make them go.  Don't know if that is operator error or if the design as a package is just not as fast as it would seem on paper.

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10 hours ago, 12 metre said:

Completely different boat...but fairly similar numbers which I think is what Roadkill was referring to. For example, beyond LOA:

                      Pride 270    Sov 27

SAD:                  26.7           23.5

Disp                   3800          3900

Beam                   8.50          8.75

D/L                       132           165

I                             35              35

J                            10.2          10.0

P                             37.5           33.5

E                             12.0           11.2

So on paper pretty similar other than the Pride 270 has higher SAD and lower D/L.  Should be a lot faster, but from what I have read about them, the Pride 270 is very tender and no one has been able to really make them go.  Don't know if that is operator error or if the design as a package is just not as fast as it would seem on paper.

Its a dog.  One was sailed locally for years and never could get up and go.

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I had a Tartan 270 that I raced. Huge rig but not as fast as you would think when looking at the numbers. Takes some rig tune and lots of rake to get it going. I was faster than the J27 in the light air - even up in medium air and they were faster when the wind came up.  I enjoyed the boat. 

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On 9/30/2020 at 12:11 AM, Crash said:

SV,

Not sure how you drew that conclusion. 

Sov 26 has a 10.10 ft beam and displaces 4750 lbs and has an IOR bustle feature aft

Sov 27 has a 8.75 ft beam and displaces 3900 lbs and is a MORC design

Tartan Pride has a 8.5 ft beam and displaces 3800 lbs.  Plus it has a hard bow knuckle that Sov 27 doesn't have....

Sovs were designed by Mark Soveral, the Pride was designed by Britt Chance.

Pretty sure they are totally 3 different designs/boats.  But I've been wrong before :rolleyes:

Crash

Yep, I clearly am wrong.  I didn't realize Mark had built another MORC boat after the 26 and the 30.  I know the pre-1980 Soverel boats better than the post-1980 (I left there in 1978) but his designs were trending steadily toward larger boats when I left.  Should probably have kept my thoughts to myself given the amount of "maybe this or that happened" in them.  Heck, I might even start doing that at some point!

BTW, the 26 wasn't, of course, an IOR design but I'm not sure what part of the aft hull you are calling "an IOR bustle feature".  I looked at some of my pictures of 26's under construction and they are pretty fair all the way the the transom, with just a little flattening at the midline for the last few feet.

Another BTW, I meant Tartan built a bunch of 33s, not 30s.

Old age, ya know.

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1 hour ago, SVArcturus said:

Yep, I clearly am wrong.  I didn't realize Mark had built another MORC boat after the 26 and the 30.  I know the pre-1980 Soverel boats better than the post-1980 (I left there in 1978) but his designs were trending steadily toward larger boats when I left.  Should probably have kept my thoughts to myself given the amount of "maybe this or that happened" in them.  Heck, I might even start doing that at some point!

BTW, the 26 wasn't, of course, an IOR design but I'm not sure what part of the aft hull you are calling "an IOR bustle feature".  I looked at some of my pictures of 26's under construction and they are pretty fair all the way the the transom, with just a little flattening at the midline for the last few feet.

Another BTW, I meant Tartan built a bunch of 33s, not 30s.

Old age, ya know.

I wasn't familiar with the Sov 26, but found a photo of one in a boat yard - and definitely no bustle there...of any type.

soveral2.jpg

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SV, 12,

My bad as well!  I was suckered by the drawing, see area circled, which looked IORish to me.  Pic clearly shows no IOR bustle there!

image.thumb.png.2d1dde953b00a95f592bc77f498664a0.png

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16 hours ago, 12 metre said:

I wasn't familiar with the Sov 26, but found a photo of one in a boat yard - and definitely no bustle there...of any type.

I have a couple dozen photos of 26s under construction (I never worked on them, but they were built in a bay adjoining the boats I worked on, so I took odds-and-ends of shots when photographing the one-off projects I worked with).  However, none was a good as yours for showing the aft underbody.  The best one I have is of Stewball (the 75? MORC Internationals winner).  I think she was back to the factory for the "normal" refit and touchup before being turned over to the owner at the end of the initial MORC season, during which she was raced by the Soverel "company team".
   In digging through the pictures, I was reminded that they built a flush-deck 26 for someone.  Moody Blue (the original flush-deck version of the Soverel 36) had just won her IOR Class, so maybe someone thought it was a good idea to try on a 26.  That's some low headroom below!

 

Slide__847_Stewball_(Soverel_30_production_boat_3-1976_2.jpg

Slide__967_Soverel_26_flush_deck_7-1976_2.jpg

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that is one weird looking flush deck!

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On 9/28/2020 at 10:01 PM, Santana20AE said:

With the Santana 20, suffering major damage and Getaway (S2 7.9) a write off, It may well be time for a new boat.  

I have thought about larger boats for some time but have decided, I don’t want major systems and major headaches.  Also, I want a boat that I can reasonably pick up and take home.  Forget larger.  (Than the S2) The only boat I can think of that might meet the criteria and be reasonably affordable is the Soverel 27.  The Soverel is light enough to tow (3900lbs advertised Displacement)  Narrow enough to tow (not exactly but being 3 inches over, who is going to quibble) and has an inboard so I won’t have to fight the outboard issues.  Draft is 5 feet, which might be an issue on Caney Creek Lake but heck, maybe we can spring for a deeper slip. (Dept at the end of our dock is normally about 6 1/2 feet)  Of course trailer launching will just not be happening. Keel stepped mast is also a potential issue.  

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Soverel.  And a big question, does it have a solid hull or a cored hull?  With a reefed main and a blade, could she be handled by a slightly over middle age couple with decades of sailing experience?  (Well maybe a touch older than slightly over middle age, how bout Very old but still pretty and Ancient.)

Oh we are retired so money is not unlimited

 

There is a Soverel 27 a few slips down from me. Very nice looking boat. I'm not sure how comfortable the cockpit is, but I'm a sissy. The owner is a nice young fellow, probably 40s. I may be able to put you in touch with him. 

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4 hours ago, SVArcturus said:

I have a couple dozen photos of 26s under construction (I never worked on them, but they were built in a bay adjoining the boats I worked on, so I took odds-and-ends of shots when photographing the one-off projects I worked with).  However, none was a good as yours for showing the aft underbody.  The best one I have is of Stewball (the 75? MORC Internationals winner).  I think she was back to the factory for the "normal" refit and touchup before being turned over to the owner at the end of the initial MORC season, during which she was raced by the Soverel "company team".
   In digging through the pictures, I was reminded that they built a flush-deck 26 for someone.  Moody Blue (the original flush-deck version of the Soverel 36) had just won her IOR Class, so maybe someone thought it was a good idea to try on a 26.  That's some low headroom below!

 

Slide__847_Stewball_(Soverel_30_production_boat_3-1976_2.jpg

Slide__967_Soverel_26_flush_deck_7-1976_2.jpg

That flush decked version is located in Grand River, Ohio and has been sitting on its cradle filled with water and rig still up for 20 years plus.Still the same color...

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On 9/28/2020 at 10:01 PM, Santana20AE said:

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Soverel.  And a big question, does it have a solid hull or a cored hull?  

 

Santana, just a caution on Soverels.  All of them that were built at the Soverel factory were "semi-custom".  There was a stock configuration available, but things like cored vs solid hulls, and lots of other details were up to the buyer and Soverel would modify the boat to fit their wishes.  Not sure if this is true of the later Tartan-built Soverels.
  So, if someone says something like "Soverel 27s had Airex-cored hulls" take it with a large grain of salt.  Your result may vary.

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IF you believe Sailboatdata...(and that can be a big if!), all 27 hulls of the Soverel 27 design were built by Tartan.  I have no idea if that is true or not. Brochure I linked above was from June 1986 and show's Tartan's address at that time (ie Grand River, Ohio)

Question re the Sov 26?  I wonder if they were trying to make the Sov 26, while being a MORC design, not be "overly penalized" by the IOR rule?  The rig is very "IORish" with a small ribbon main and big fore-triangle, and the "S turn" in the run looks like a small concession to the aft AGS measurement station in IOR.  Not unsurprisingly, the Lindenburg 26, designed in the same timeframe, shares the same "IORish" rig dimensions...ie. ribbon main, large fore-triangle.  Was that a change in the MORC rule in the mid-70s or because the designers were hoping to produce a boat that could both race in MORC, but also would rate as a IOR quarter tonner?

 

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31 minutes ago, Crash said:

IF you believe Sailboatdata...(and that can be a big if!), all 27 hulls of the Soverel 27 design were built by Tartan.  I have no idea if that is true or not. Brochure I linked above was from June 1986 and show's Tartan's address at that time (ie Grand River, Ohio)

Question re the Sov 26?  I wonder if they were trying to make the Sov 26, while being a MORC design, not be "overly penalized" by the IOR rule?  The rig is very "IORish" with a small ribbon main and big fore-triangle, and the "S turn" in the run looks like a small concession to the aft AGS measurement station in IOR.  Not unsurprisingly, the Lindenburg 26, designed in the same timeframe, shares the same "IORish" rig dimensions...ie. ribbon main, large fore-triangle.  Was that a change in the MORC rule in the mid-70s or because the designers were hoping to produce a boat that could both race in MORC, but also would rate as a IOR quarter tonner?

 

The small inflection (if it actually exists other than in the above drawing, also shows a semi-elliptical rudder, which the boat in the photo does not have) combined with the location of the transom corners MAY have been a concession to IOR, but the boat is way too big to be a QT.  Maybe a small HT like the CF27 at best. 

22.5 ft LWL with wide stern and short overhangs would have way too much Rated Length to be a QT.   Rated Length was almost always more than LWL and the QT with the longest Rated Length I can think of was Magic Bus at 22.0 ft.  The rig dimensions are more along the size of a typical HT as well.  Rig is a bit shorter than typical HT.  Sov 26 has an I of 36 while a typical HT like a SJ30 has an I of 38 roughly.  By comparison, a SJ 24 (QT) has an I of only 30 ft. 

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Good points 12!

But then as a MORC boat, why the ribbon main/huge foretriangle?  The sail plan of most MORC boats I can think of was much more balanced...

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Why not just get an inboard 7.9?  Seems you might have some extra spare bits laying around if your other one was a "write-off".

 

There are two for sale on the 7.9 class site with inboards at this very moment.

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On 10/7/2020 at 11:16 AM, bridhb said:

that is one weird looking flush deck!

I can tell you from experience ( I owned that blue one for a while) it was very comfortable to sail, easy to get around on.  The only problem is that anything that was dropped went right over the side.   Overall a very powerful boat.  MORC 4Q killed it, though.   Like JWW says below, it's sitting in Grand River, Ohio just waiting for its new owner!

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The Linderberg 26 is the same hull as the Creekmore 26 Scoundrel.

Paul did the deck and inside.

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The Soveral 27 has a painbox cockpit- not enough room to change your mind!

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21 hours ago, Crash said:

Good points 12!

But then as a MORC boat, why the ribbon main/huge foretriangle?  The sail plan of most MORC boats I can think of was much more balanced...

Wait!  I completely missed that.  He was building boats at that time with large mains and small headsails.  Lots of fractional rigs.  Maybe they look like small mains and large headsails by present standards, but not at the time.
  
Regarding some questions raised about design aspects that might be aimed at IOR rules.  I guess there could be, but I was never aware that he tried to straddle the rules.  We built IOR designs and MORC designs (and "just" cruising designs), but they seemed to be pretty distinct lines.

Once again, though, I left there late 70s and while keeping touch for a couple of years, can't provide useful input on his later work (as is obvious by my first entry in this thread!)

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8 hours ago, sailboatold said:

SVArcturas, would love to see any other photos of Soverel 26's you might have.

I have about 25, but they are all of construction stages rather than finished boats.  Lots of deck molds and interior pan installations, etc. Happy to send them to you if you are still interested.  PM me an email address.

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Raced on a Morgan 27 with a 170 jib.

Came pretty much to the back of the boat.

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18 minutes ago, LarryE said:

Raced on a Morgan 27 with a 170 jib.

Came pretty much to the back of the boat.

I had a custom 26 MORC racer built in 1974 by Dennis Garrett, one of the Soverel boat builders.  In fact, he was the chief builder responsible for running the Soverel 26 line.  I bought the custom boat from him when he left to work at Cabo Rico.  It had a 170 genoa and a 145 genoa that slab reefed to 125.  Definitely some large headsails in use, a trend not followed by the Soverel 26 and 30.  

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I have a 160 light air genoa on my Several 26, in very light air we keep on sailing while others are be calmed, for such a wide little boat you would think it would be extremely sticky in light air.

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We had a 2-3 oz nylon 170 on our Lindenberg 26 on Tampa Bay in the mid 70's.  don't think you can call that boat in any way "IOR" inspired.

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On 10/7/2020 at 7:31 PM, Crash said:

IF you believe Sailboatdata...(and that can be a big if!),

Yeah, lots of errors in their database.  I've corrected some of the Soverel ones, but there's still a bunch.

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On 10/7/2020 at 7:57 PM, 12 metre said:

The small inflection (if it actually exists other than in the above drawing, 

I think the "inflection" is not a rating device but just where the hull bottom was flattened slightly above the rudder so that the top of the rudder maintains a close proximity during its travel, minimizing turbulence.  Mark was very careful in his hull/rudder designs to maximize clean rudder flow.  My Soverel 36 has a fairly complicated bulge at the top of the rudder that fits into a notch in the hull.  Fairing pieces could be added trailing from the hull out over the rudder "bulge" to provide a really smooth flow.  I had them on when I started cruising, but removed them after deciding that dealing with fouling was too hard for a cruiser.   I'm sure the water attachment isn't quite as good, but hey, I'm not racing her.

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Interesting.  The other thing I note on Sailboatdata.com is that there was a 75 version of the Sov 26.  It had a slightly longer LOA, shorter boom, longer J, and the picture shows a one spreader masthead rig.  Then it shows a 76 version, with a shorter LOA, longer boom, shorter J, and every picture I find of a 76 or later shows a 2 spreader masthead rig.  I wonder if a "prototype" was built, and then evolved some into the "Production" version with a longer boom, shorter J, 2 spreader rig that we are all used to seeing?

 

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We had a 1987 Soverel 27 and absolutely loved it.  Well built by Tartan, well designed by Mark.  Sailed like a champ in light air, held it's own as it got heavier.  The 1GM10 with raw water cooling was a champ/super easy to maintain.  The in-line rig with checkstays never gave us a challenge - and that was sometimes sailing with 2 kids under 3, and other times racing with 4-5 guys.  The check stays were nice to use for main shape, but not mission critical.

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On 9/29/2020 at 6:53 AM, JEA said:

The Tartan Pride is a Chance design.  Funny that Tartan would go to Chance for a boat design.

Did he tank test it?  Maybe that was what convinced them.

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On 10/9/2020 at 12:24 AM, Crash said:

Interesting.  The other thing I note on Sailboatdata.com is that there was a 75 version of the Sov 26.  It had a slightly longer LOA, shorter boom, longer J, and the picture shows a one spreader masthead rig.  Then it shows a 76 version, with a shorter LOA, longer boom, shorter J, and every picture I find of a 76 or later shows a 2 spreader masthead rig.  I wonder if a "prototype" was built, and then evolved some into the "Production" version with a longer boom, shorter J, 2 spreader rig that we are all used to seeing?

Stewball, the MORC international winner, was the prototype 26 (and the hull molds were taken off her one-off -constructed hull).  Maybe she was initially a masthead rig?  I didn't pay that much attention to her at the time, so I don't know the answer to that question.

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At least the motor is on top of the keel. that is about the best you can do for reducing drag with a prop shaft.

 

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