socalrider

Daysailer for old people

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Because we had mentioned Doug Zurn in the lottery thread, I will bring his Marblehead 22 up once more here. 

Zurn%20Marblehead%2022%20(2).jpg

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16 hours ago, Matagi said:

Because we had mentioned Doug Zurn in the lottery thread, I will bring his Marblehead 22 up once more here. 

Zurn%20Marblehead%2022%20(2).jpg

He's a bit tighter than corner-to-corner but it looks like the boat is moving fairly well.

Oh wait, this isn't the new Opti replacement? Sorry.....

FB- Doug

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Open letter to sailboat designers and builders regarding boats for old people:

I am an old person.  So old I can barely move.  Old, but still love actually sailing (not just being a “passenger” on a sailboat).  Like most older people, I have more money to spend than I did when I was young.  I represent an untapped market, so listen up.

We old people need to be able to sit in one place and control all of the functions of a sailboat by pushing buttons. 
 

Here is an example of a boat that comes close 

I said “comes close”.  The problem with this particular boat is a 7 foot fixed draft.  That seems fine in Europe, but not in areas of the Chesapeake Bay, and the Bays and tributaries of the ICW and the coast of the Gulf of Mexico.  The “perfect” boat must have variable draft (centerboard, daggerboards, lifting keel or what-have-you) with a “boards up” draft of less than 3 feet.

Build it and they will come.

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2 hours ago, hannibalhouse said:

Open letter to sailboat designers and builders regarding boats for old people:

I am an old person.  So old I can barely move.  Old, but still love actually sailing (not just being a “passenger” on a sailboat).  Like most older people, I have more money to spend than I did when I was young.  I represent an untapped market, so listen up.

We old people need to be able to sit in one place and control all of the functions of a sailboat by pushing buttons. 
 

Here is an example of a boat that comes close 

I said “comes close”.  The problem with this particular boat is a 7 foot fixed draft.  That seems fine in Europe, but not in areas of the Chesapeake Bay, and the Bays and tributaries of the ICW and the coast of the Gulf of Mexico.  The “perfect” boat must have variable draft (centerboard, daggerboards, lifting keel or what-have-you) with a “boards up” draft of less than 3 feet.

Build it and they will come.

I agree with your statement, Hannibal, but in the video, it's kinda pathetic to see a young man pushing a button to trim a jib. Also, it's a disgrace that they had to get up and handle lines when they got back to the dock.

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I have to say, there comes a point where all this automation makes me feel like this.

 

floating_chairs.gif

I mean, why stop at having to do literally nothing on the boat but steer? Get an autopilot, all you have to do is push buttons.  Maybe you can get Siri to run the winches.  "Siri, unfurl the jib." ...  "Siri, turn to port." .."Siri, take my girlfriends bikini top off".

How fun..

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I have to agree. Part of the sailing experience is actually using your body to make the boat do what you want. I don't really want to do that in a sunfish anymore, but I am still happy to grind my own winches. (plus one less thing to break)  I play tennis (poorly, thanks to grumpy knees). The equivalent would be having some teenager play the match for me with me just  shouting at him what I want him to do. Well, sort of...

 

Ask me in 10 years though!

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2 hours ago, On The Hard said:

I have to agree. Part of the sailing experience is actually using your body to make the boat do what you want. I don't really want to do that in a sunfish anymore, but I am still happy to grind my own winches. (plus one less thing to break)  I play tennis (poorly, thanks to grumpy knees). The equivalent would be having some teenager play the match for me with me just  shouting at him what I want him to do. Well, sort of...

 

Ask me in 10 years though!

 

image.png.09f49ab6d29fdf61ad8314bdad8c8066.png

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5 hours ago, socalrider said:

 

image.png.09f49ab6d29fdf61ad8314bdad8c8066.png

Who needs a full enclosure in Newport Beach???  Jeez, us Southern Californians are such wimps!

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22 hours ago, socalrider said:

 

image.png.09f49ab6d29fdf61ad8314bdad8c8066.png

You laugh! I'm actually considering an electric party barge for my lake house...I had looked at those too, but they only go about 8 kts

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1 hour ago, On The Hard said:

You laugh! I'm actually considering an electric party barge for my lake house...I had looked at those too, but they only go about 8 kts

Geez - 8kts is blazing fast for my displacement-tempered expectations. How fast does an electric party barge need to go?

seriously though, every time I see one of those picnic tables floating by a piece of me says... man that looks pleasant!

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On 12/7/2020 at 11:55 AM, On The Hard said:

I have to agree. Part of the sailing experience is actually using your body to make the boat do what you want. I don't really want to do that in a sunfish anymore, but I am still happy to grind my own winches. (plus one less thing to break)  I play tennis (poorly, thanks to grumpy knees). The equivalent would be having some teenager play the match for me with me just  shouting at him what I want him to do. Well, sort of...

 

Ask me in 10 years though!

As the boats and loads get bigger, and you are still functionally single handing, as with my wife, you become pretty grateful for electric primaries right at the helm. 

One of the easiest boats I ever sailed was an Eggemoggin 47 daysailor. 47', 12000lbs of pure joy. That's me at the wheel on, appropriately, the Eggemoggin Reach. Because of powered stuff, only one sailor required to set, reef, trim. Doing probably 8kts upwind, barely creating a wake.

 

132.thumb.jpg.8227344f020afa72af2f04bf2ddf6c55.jpg

 

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I just got a Milwaukee 28V battery operated, 1/2" right angle drill with a winch bit to raise my main. Haven't had a chance to use it yet but I'm looking forward to trying it. The problem was I could get my 450 SF main up single handed but I had to take so long, while drifting head to wind, that I was an obstacle for all the other boats out there. With fast slides and a dutchman flaking system, I think this setup can safely hoist the main in no time. I may also try in on the genoa winches but I understand you have to really brace yourself or it will fly right out of your hands.

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19 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

As the boats and loads get bigger, and you are still functionally single handing, as with my wife, you become pretty grateful for electric primaries right at the helm. 

One of the easiest boats I ever sailed was an Eggemoggin 47 daysailor. 47', 12000lbs of pure joy. That's me at the wheel on, appropriately, the Eggemoggin Reach. Because of powered stuff, only one sailor required to set, reef, trim. Doing probably 8kts upwind, barely creating a wake.

 

132.thumb.jpg.8227344f020afa72af2f04bf2ddf6c55.jpg

 

My attitude would be different, no doubt, if I got to sail the stuff you do! But on a 40' Bene it just doesn't seem necessary. North of that, the picture changes

When you mentioned the Eggemoggin earlier, I looked it up. Simply stunning!

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19 hours ago, socalrider said:

Geez - 8kts is blazing fast for my displacement-tempered expectations. How fast does an electric party barge need to go?

seriously though, every time I see one of those picnic tables floating by a piece of me says... man that looks pleasant!

We have a house on a 3 mile long lake. Sunset cruise targeted for 30 minutes. 12 kts would do the trick. Doable on a pontoon boat with the right power set up

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I'd love to know how much this bit of kit would run! Looks like a blast. (Dual wheels are a little overkill, but I could live with it)

 

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Take advantage of the CA network.  Have someone in the VA area find you a used trailer and used F-150.  Fly east, buy trailer and F-150.  Buy boat and load.  Drive to San Diego.  Put boat in water, and sell trailer and F-150!  Et Volia! :P

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2 minutes ago, socalrider said:

Very pretty.

Dock space for a 40'er can't be cheap. However, you do get the interior of a 20-footer to make up for it.

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1 minute ago, Ishmael said:

Very pretty.

Dock space for a 40'er can't be cheap. However, you do get the interior of a 20-footer to make up for it.

It is very pointy!  

Moorage will be brutal.  But it is $130k cheaper than the Morris my mom likes, which can buy a lot of monthly slip fees... 

Our trawler is 41' and the slip next to us (no finger in between) just came open - would be fantastic to get the whole double slip and have them next to each other so we could look out across the forest of teak decking and think of all the bungs we need to replace...

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That is very nice. Would I be correct in saying it would sail on its ear all the time?

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What about a Catalina 275 Sport? Don’t think I saw that mentioned in this thread yet. I wonder if it could keep up with an Alerion 28 or Harbor 25. 

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2 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

That is very nice. Would I be correct in saying it would sail on its ear all the time?

Well at 40' and a 7' beam, there's not much form stability!  From what I can gather they're typically around 5500lbs, and 30sqm sail area (323) so 16.56 SA/D which is probably pretty manageable in our 8-12kt winds.  I like the new, small roller-furled jib for an easy de-power option for my parents.  

I also suspect with the cockpit seats basically at the waterline, heeling won't feel as dramatic as it does on beamier boats with more freeboard, particularly if you're sitting to leeward.

43 minutes ago, See Level said:

Is that Dennis Conner's boat?

It's not at the SDYC, so don't think so.  Though he seems to have owned half of the cool boats in town at one time or another.  

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I'm pretty sure that 30-square was the same one advertised for a long time last year at $14,500.  I was almost tempted enough to go look at her, but not quite, for all the given reasons.  I'm guessing the price could be pretty flexible if you wanted to take it on.

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38 minutes ago, Son of Hans said:

I'm pretty sure that 30-square was the same one advertised for a long time last year at $14,500.  I was almost tempted enough to go look at her, but not quite, for all the given reasons.  I'm guessing the price could be pretty flexible if you wanted to take it on.

I'll try and get the story from the seller when I see it tomorrow.  I do recall seeing some of those pics before.  There was a 30-square a few slips down from where we kept our old First 405 that I always admired & I'd thought it was that one but no.  

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In all seriousness, I used to race a Ranger 23 back in the 70's. It was a short rig to rate 1/4 ton. For So Cal you would need a tall rig for sure! They are not light air boats.

But having said that, very sturdy for older folks and a comfortable cockpit. This one is on the west coast and comes complete with a sail mast!

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/64904

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2 hours ago, On The Hard said:

In all seriousness, I used to race a Ranger 23 back in the 70's. It was a short rig to rate 1/4 ton. For So Cal you would need a tall rig for sure! They are not light air boats.

But having said that, very sturdy for older folks and a comfortable cockpit. This one is on the west coast and comes complete with a sail mast!

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/64904

Sam Holmes sailed his Ranger 23 to Hawaii.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUi0gsxVHZM

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4 hours ago, On The Hard said:

In all seriousness, I used to race a Ranger 23 back in the 70's. It was a short rig to rate 1/4 ton. For So Cal you would need a tall rig for sure! They are not light air boats.

But having said that, very sturdy for older folks and a comfortable cockpit. This one is on the west coast and comes complete with a sail mast!

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/64904

That looks great, but the ad is from April 2017!  Sailboatlistings is the worst for zombie links.  

We just saw the 30 square meter.  She's in rougher shape than the pics indicated & that turned off my parents.  Could be a really sweet ride for someone who wants to spend time sanding, painting & varnishing.  I've got my hands full of that with my trawler, so not the right boat for us unfortunately.   

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On 11/23/2020 at 10:02 PM, Sail4beer said:

This isn’t the Ugly Dodger thread 

 

4096BAE0-C186-42C8-B897-864A6C2EF27A.jpeg

I am sure that boat works very well, and its lines are pretty.  But there is something bout the overall look which makes me shudder.

Does it need wood? Colour on the cabintop?  

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

I am sure that boat works very well, and its lines are pretty.  But there is something bout the overall look which makes me shudder.

Does it need wood? Colour on the cabintop?  

It’s a Schock.  They don’t ‘do’ fancy.   The Harbor 20, however, works really well for the target market and use.  

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

I am sure that boat works very well, and its lines are pretty.  But there is something bout the overall look which makes me shudder.

Does it need wood? Colour on the cabintop?  

I think it's mostly the non-matching sail covers.  And the dodger is nasty.  They are good looking boats.  

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5 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

I am sure that boat works very well, and its lines are pretty.  But there is something bout the overall look which makes me shudder.

Does it need wood? Colour on the cabintop?  

It’s probably the Hoyt boom. It has a knack for making any boat look like a p.o.s. and yes that includes the Alerions that use it.

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1 hour ago, fufkin said:

It’s probably the Hoyt boom. It has a knack for making any boat look like a p.o.s. and yes that includes the Alerions that use it.

Ah, I don't ,ind the boom.  That looks OK to me.  It's the rest of the boat that looks wrong to my eye

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8 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Ah, I don't ,ind the boom.  That looks OK to me.  It's the rest of the boat that looks wrong to my eye

Fair enough. Putting aside the Hoyt boom and the dodger, maybe it’s sheer that carries aft. For lack of accurate terminology, I’m gonna call it a ‘soggy sheer’.

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8 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

I am sure that boat works very well, and its lines are pretty.  But there is something bout the overall look which makes me shudder.

Does it need wood? Colour on the cabintop?  

Teak decks would be nice. B)

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11 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

I am sure that boat works very well, and its lines are pretty.  But there is something bout the overall look which makes me shudder.

Does it need wood? Colour on the cabintop?  

Maybe the cabin top could have been forward of the mast. Yeesh

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Here’s my 20’ boat with a proper Hereshoff cabin top in the proper location. No dodger needed

EEF60458-A36C-4BAF-BEE0-91D6EC0071EF.jpeg

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And yes, the floating dock has been replaced with fresh everything. It lasted 30 years...probably 5 years too long.

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Kind of intrigued by the Esse 850 in the classifieds.  Room for a tiny head below.  Not sure if I can sell the parents on something so sporty, but I suspect she could be set up to be very easily sailed, and the featherweight displacement and huge ballast/disp ratio would make for good stability.  Sit-on vs sit-in might be an issue.  Man what a beautiful boat...

IMG_3594.JPG

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Any thoughts on sit-on versus sit-in cockpits?  Parents are concerned about comfort on the Esse 850.  

I find myself always sitting on the coaming with my feet on the cockpit seats while underway and heeling; but this seems to be one consistent distinction between the daysailer versus sportboat designs.  I'd guess you'd get wet sitting to leeward in any sort of breeze without the coaming.  And maybe a wet bum after a tack.  

There's also a J/27 that just came on the market; would need some spiffing up but I've always liked them.  It has cockpit coamings, but they're pretty short & I'm not sure if they'd be a net benefit to comfort in actual use.  

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3 hours ago, socalrider said:

Any thoughts on sit-on versus sit-in cockpits?  Parents are concerned about comfort on the Esse 850.  

I find myself always sitting on the coaming with my feet on the cockpit seats while underway and heeling; but this seems to be one consistent distinction between the daysailer versus sportboat designs.  I'd guess you'd get wet sitting to leeward in any sort of breeze without the coaming.  And maybe a wet bum after a tack.  

There's also a J/27 that just came on the market; would need some spiffing up but I've always liked them.  It has cockpit coamings, but they're pretty short & I'm not sure if they'd be a net benefit to comfort in actual use.  

J-27 would be a great pick.  Hard to go wrong with one of them.  Blackadder used to be a regular here...

my distant recollection is seat height plus coaming isn’t full back support, but not a kidney buster either.  Kinda in between the two.

plus for the money, you could put some extra into it and really make it nice...

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1 hour ago, SpongeDeckSquareFoil said:

From Harbor 20 to Esse 850. This thread sure narrows it down.

Is the "traditional" appearance thing still a factor?

Yeah part of what's happening is I'm opportunistically responding to stuff that comes on the market.  Inventory is really really slim, so while there are lots of really cool boats available in distant areas the reality of COVID right now means we're stuck looking at what's nearby.  

Harbor 20 is too small, we need a head even if it's minimal.  

Traditional appearance would be great, I'm finding that a lot of the traditional stuff is really heavy and undercanvased and wouldn't be much fun in our 8-10kts.  Brightwork maintenance is also a concern.  

So ideally we'd have something with a lighter displacement, modern sail plan (small jib), not too much brightwork, and locally available.  

In reality, here in SoCal there's the J/27, a few J/105's and a bunch of beaten up IOR/MORC 70's/80's 27-33 footers with big genoas, small cockpits, and more accommodation than required.  In the Bay there's the Esse 850 on a trailer.  No Alerions or J/100's which would probably be better choices.  Oh and the Morris M29 at $150k (though it now shows as sale pending...)  Suppose we could order a J/9 for a bit less.  But slim pickings so the criteria are getting flexible.  

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J-27, painted dark navy blue with a gold cove stripe white boot stripe, two tone grey and white deck and varnished brightwork (what little there is) is a really nice looking combination.  This is close, but not exactly it...

57ddffc9d44722513af8961ca87e1b82.jpg

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54 minutes ago, socalrider said:

Yeah part of what's happening is I'm opportunistically responding to stuff that comes on the market.  Inventory is really really slim, so while there are lots of really cool boats available in distant areas the reality of COVID right now means we're stuck looking at what's nearby.  

Harbor 20 is too small, we need a head even if it's minimal.  

Traditional appearance would be great, I'm finding that a lot of the traditional stuff is really heavy and undercanvased and wouldn't be much fun in our 8-10kts.  Brightwork maintenance is also a concern.  

So ideally we'd have something with a lighter displacement, modern sail plan (small jib), not too much brightwork, and locally available.  

In reality, here in SoCal there's the J/27, a few J/105's and a bunch of beaten up IOR/MORC 70's/80's 27-33 footers with big genoas, small cockpits, and more accommodation than required.  In the Bay there's the Esse 850 on a trailer.  No Alerions or J/100's which would probably be better choices.  Oh and the Morris M29 at $150k (though it now shows as sale pending...)  Suppose we could order a J/9 for a bit less.  But slim pickings so the criteria are getting flexible.  

(Minor) price reduction on a CH31:

http://brooklinboatyard.com/mystery/

 

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6 hours ago, Crash said:

J-27, painted dark navy blue with a gold cove stripe white boot stripe, two tone grey and white deck and varnished brightwork (what little there is) is a really nice looking combination.  This is close, but not exactly it...

57ddffc9d44722513af8961ca87e1b82.jpg

What is a J 27 like singlehanded (by an older, but very experienced dude)? Could you set it up with a Hoyt jib boom to get a poor man's J100?

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On the J27, while I haven't sailed on one, I have owned two J22's and the boats seem to have some similarities. Two comments: The J22 cockpit was just OK from a comfort standpoint; the backrests are not very high.  IMHO, the J22 was pretty dependent on crew weight. If you were single-handing with a breeze much over 10 knots, the boat could be difficult to manage. The J27 may be less so.

That said, the J22 is a sweet sailing boat, and I imagine the 27 is too.

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18 minutes ago, Bull City said:

IMHO, the J22 was pretty dependent on crew weight. If you were single-handing with a breeze much over 10 knots, the boat could be difficult to manage. The J27 may be less so.

I suspect a bit less so.  The J/27 has a ballast ration of ~40%. vs ~30% for the J/22.

However, it's still a very 1980s-style keel, with no bulb.

A J/80 would be better for vegetarian* sailing, since it does have a bulb

*  vegetarian sailing = no rail meat

 

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20 hours ago, socalrider said:

  Sit-on vs sit-in might be an issue.

The boat I showed above had that on the list of mods to make the boat comfortable. The benches were about 6”above the sole and the coaming so dead vertical that you couldn’t sit all the way back and the top of the coaming would dig your back. It was like sailing at the little kids table.

I was going to remove the benches and modify it to a sit on coaming like a Melges 24 or MC scow to have some leg room but was worried about sailing with some of my older friends that like a little comfort. After some thought, I decided to cut the sole out  and leave a small potion of the keel sump for stability. It gave me the necessary clearance to leave the benches and allowed enough legroom to comfortably sit back and enjoy sailing without the pain in the back. Now I’ll fill up the open areas with 2 part foam and glass the edges back to better support the benches.

Since the folks are older, I’m going to suggest that they wouldn’t like to sit on the coamings for an afternoon sail...get them a Ensign and don’t hike out.

3585A9BF-D9E6-44B4-B409-D3B5AE026692.jpeg

376CC5D1-3632-435A-ACFD-D40ABA5D56A5.jpeg

FE0F1ED0-E264-4E3C-A4A7-A8767CA7A9AE.jpeg

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

I suspect a bit less so.  The J/27 has a ballast ration of ~40%. vs ~30% for the J/22.

However, it's still a very 1980s-style keel, with no bulb.

A J/80 would be better for vegetarian* sailing, since it does have a bulb

*  vegetarian sailing = no rail meat

 

A J/80 with its 48% ballast ratio and a bulb is definitively less crew weight dependent than a J-27, plus for a single hander, comes with a sprit and Asym...

For SoCal's use, the J-27 has seats/coaming, so sit it is possible/useable.  J-27 has a better, more useable interior/head, but has a conventional chute. 

The J/80 is only sit on, so would make it harder on his folks, I'd guess.  Cabin smaller, harder to use, but does have a sprit and aysm.

J/80 rates 120 PHRF, 126 ODR while a J-27 rates 129 PHRF.  Both sail well, and both can be weapons on the race course.

To answer Bristol's question, sure you could put a hoyt boom (I appreciate what they do, but hate how they look/clutter the foredeck) or maybe better a track just forward of the mast to allow self tacking upwind.  Would need to upgrade to self tailing winches and get a decent autopilot.  And your dealing with an outboard vs. an inboard diesel, but its easily reached from the helm/cockpit, so not a huge PITA from that regard.

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Thanks guys.  I suspect coamings are a requirement, much as I love the Esse myself.  J/27 is a possibility.  

There's a Synergy 1000 listed up in SF.  Bigger, ,more protected cockpit, 33', 4300lbs, small inboard, asking $55k.  Could set it up with a dutchman and maybe even rig a self-tacker with a small jib.  And secretly plot a Transpac run...

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Just now, socalrider said:

Thanks guys.  I suspect coamings are a requirement, much as I love the Esse myself.  J/27 is a possibility.  

There's a Synergy 1000 listed up in SF.  Bigger, ,more protected cockpit, 33', 4300lbs, small inboard, asking $55k.  Could set it up with a dutchman and maybe even rig a self-tacker with a small jib.  And secretly plot a Transpac run...

love the synergy

get them a pinhead main. They are powered up.

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55 minutes ago, socalrider said:

Thanks guys.  I suspect coamings are a requirement, much as I love the Esse myself

Have you checked whether that's actually the case?

Personally, I think that coamings are over-rated.  Most of them are too low to give much back support, and those that are high enough don't work comfortably when there is much heel.  I can see the case them when you are in gnarly conditions offshore, but for daysailing in the light airs and hot sun of San Diego, I would think they are probably more of an obstruction than a help.

I'd be inclined to suggest that your parents try a no-coamings boats before ruling that out

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570 sqft of sail area and an SA/Disp ratio of 35 does not say old persons day sailor to me...

That sounds more like a boat you want, vice a boat they want/need :unsure:

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4 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

The J/27 has a ballast ration of ~40%. vs ~30% for the J/22.

27 is 40%, 22 is 39%. 

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

570 sqft of sail area and an SA/Disp ratio of 35 does not say old persons day sailor to me...

That sounds more like a boat you want, vice a boat they want/need :unsure:

Point taken, but compare it to a J/100 which everyone seems to agree is a “daysailer”

- 1.25’ deeper draft, similar ballast.  Better

- 2200lbs less displacement, all in the hull.  Better

- Same sail area. Could be reduced further with a pin head main and 90% jib if you wanted. 

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I’m pretty sure that my geezer boat is going to be “sit in” and have easy systems. If it’s a tad larger so the wife will still sail with me it’s going to have electric winches.

and yes, the coamings on my current boat are 1/2” square teak strips about 18” long. That’s not a retirement boat feature.

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1 hour ago, socalrider said:

Point taken, but compare it to a J/100 which everyone seems to agree is a “daysailer”

- 1.25’ deeper draft, similar ballast.  Better

- 2200lbs less displacement, all in the hull.  Better

- Same sail area. Could be reduced further with a pin head main and 90% jib if you wanted. 

I totally agree from a racing perspective.  I'm not sure from a "more casual" daysailer perspective.  The J/100 will have "slower, gentler" responses to inputs or forces when compared to the Synergy.  The Synergy will be a more dynamic boat, with faster responses, and will require more "athleticism" from it's crew than a J/100.  Sail area is normally measured with no roach to the main, and a 100% foretriangle.  So in reality, that is with a pin head main, I'd guess.

I'm not saying it might not be the perfect boat...and, of course, you are totally free to ignore my opinions ;)  they may well be all hosed up and completely wrong :rolleyes:

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I don't know if this is an old listing or not but here's a B 25 that looks pretty clean and could easily be transported to San Diego. https://www.tillerandkites.com/Beileyb25.html. I've never sailed one but a couple I know sailed one up in Long Beach and were very complimentary. Supposedly not so powered up that a couple couldn't handle it and it has the space below for a head. Another possibility is a Moore 24 but the association web site classified section indicates all that were offered have sold. That association discourages any interest in moving boats out of the Bay area but I think a few were bought by SHers in the Central Coast area, Santa Barbara to Ventura, and have done well.

Just something to keep in mind if one of these turns up but I guess it's really hard to find anything decent these days.

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That open Cascade 29 was one of a pair that the Sea Scouts had for years. If boats could talk ....

A local guy runs tours on it. Works well 

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2 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

 If boats could talk ....

Ewww....

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6 minutes ago, bmiller said:

This H boat is still on the market, but now he has stated an asking price.

https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/boa/d/long-beach-baltic-design-27-ft/7247667824.html

What a weird advert, going on so much about the money needed to get their next boat.  The sellers' future plans are irrelevant to the buyer

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

What a weird advert, going on so much about the money needed to get their next boat.  The sellers' future plans are irrelevant to the buyer

I saw that.  Had a weird e-mail exchange with the seller.  I asked (twice) for more/recent pics and details & he responded that he didn't have anything other than what's in the ad.  I told him I wasn't going to drive four hours round trip until I could see some more recent pics.  He responded that he agreed, especially with the restaurants closed.  Boat's on the hard in San Pedro.  I expect it's a mess.  

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I don't remember if the Catalina 270 has been mentioned. A friend has one, and it's a pretty nice boat. It looks like a Catalina, unfortunately, but I think it's attractive. More attractive that the pictures suggest. I think it's a mistake to have given it a such a big interior because it's not really big enough for any real cruising. To me, it seems like it's pretty stiff, but that's in comparison with my Hunter 28 which is surprisingly tender.

http://www.catalinayachts.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Cat-270-brochure-and-spec-sheets.pdf

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2003/catalina-270-3231910/

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sailboat-reviews/the-catalina-270-le-vs-the-beneteau-first-265

Functionally, I think a 270 with a lapping jib on the furler would work well, though it may not meet your style requirements.

 

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4 hours ago, Grip said:

There is a J95 on YW with an electric winch and a Hoyt boom (listed in sail inventory) - https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2012/j-boats-j-95-3468022/

Or, What about a Catalina 275? It’s said to be slow by racing standards but does look well laid out and probably fun to sail nonetheless and a nice comfortable place to enjoy the water. 

The J95 is a nice boat and easy to sail IMHO. Well behaved off the wind, with or without the asym. One of the better suggestions, especially considering the wider range of places you could go with it or keep it. But rather pricey.

FB- Doug

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On 10/20/2020 at 3:45 PM, Hukilau said:

I get the Herreshoff design aesthetic, but if your balance challenged parents are looking for a fun boat with a really safe cockpit, the Colgate 26 is a great option.  It can daysail with the best of them, and if you want to race, it does that too.  And if they want to take 6 or 8 of their best friends on a sunset sail in the bay, the Colgate can accommodate them easily.  

https://www.colgate26.com/

 

I would second the Colgate as an adult daysailer. Over the years, we used a mix of Colgate 26s, Harbor20s, J80s, and J29s for ASA instruction in Boston, and the Colgate remains the hands down winner in terms of comfort for adults, yet a pleasure to sail in any conditions. On weekends the area has a lot of powerboat wakes, and the the Harbor20s proved too wet due to low freeboard so they were sold off...

 

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I've got one. Easy to sail but if you want to tweak the sheets, you can. 

283589814_GallowaysHobie1.thumb.jpg.068db3f6325e81401c1a82fd66596096.jpg

Once you have it dialed in you can take off on a reach for miles sitting on your own park bench. 

2067266952_GallowaysHobie2.thumb.jpg.78965d764caef3f4b4e6c671f58a95d2.jpg

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1 hour ago, SailFanatic said:

I would second the Colgate as an adult daysailer. Over the years, we used a mix of Colgate 26s, Harbor20s, J80s, and J29s for ASA instruction in Boston, and the Colgate remains the hands down winner in terms of comfort for adults, yet a pleasure to sail in any conditions. On weekends the area has a lot of powerboat wakes, and the the Harbor20s proved too wet due to low freeboard so they were sold off...

That's really helpful.   Last time we were out in the bay we saw a Harbor 20 in somewhat gusty conditions & that cemented them as just a bit too small and low freeboard.  We also get huge powerboat wakes in SD bay.  

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The only downsides of the Colgate 26 that I can see for this purpose are the lack of a plumbed in marine head, and the use of a symmetric spinnaker.  But I guess that both could be retrofitted, and a chemical or compositing head may be in any case be a better choice for a daysailer

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

The only downsides of the Colgate 26 that I can see for this purpose are the lack of a plumbed in marine head, and the use of a symmetric spinnaker.  But I guess that both could be retrofitted, and a chemical or compositing head may be in any case be a better choice for a daysailer

Yeah, we went trough the Colgate a bit earlier in the thread.  Lack of a head, distance from tiller to primaries (on cabin top), outboard access & aesthetic are an issue as well.  Also none available on W Coast.  But good to get real feedback either way.  

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I remain an advocate for the Alerion since that is what I bought with a similar criteria list, but the problem is finding one at a digestible price.  I've noticed that there are a few Cal 29's advertised in SoCal and I think they might be worth a look as they seem to have a nice large cockpit and all the other attributes we've been discussing.  There's one on CL right now that claims to be in like-new condition if the age of the others is a concern.

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Pearson commander.

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/boa/d/emeryville-pearson-commander-26ft/7247904701.html

 

26 foot daysailing variation on the Pearson Ariel.  These pics are not of the boat in the ad.

fPearson_Commander__2800_Hatteras_NC_5d9

Huge cockpit...enough room down below for someone to lie down and take a nap. There isn't a permanent, enclosed head, though.

picpearson26143a.jpg

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But you're really on lockdown, down there, so if "the boat" isn't already in the water, practically next door, it might as well be on the moon.

We just cancelled Christmas plans to get together in Morro Bay.

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