Meat Wad

Is PHRF waking up from along slumber?

Recommended Posts

This could be the start of a ground swell. I know here in So Cal the PHRF board has discussed this very issue to give boats their base ratings. Having ratings for different wind speeds is far more desirable as boats act different in different conditions.
Lets see how this works for the Clubs of the Gulf Yachting Association.
I hope for the best.

https://www.offshoreracingrule.org/64-2020-news/170-ora-rating-services-to-provide-multiple-ratings-to-gya-phrf-fleets

Quote

ORA Rating Services to Provide Multiple Ratings to GYA-PHRF Fleets

Details
Written by John Horton

Gulf Yachting Association (GYA) race organizers will utilize ratings built on Offshore Racing Association (ORA) velocity prediction programming.

NEWPORT, RI (Oct. 8, 2020)—Beginning in January, 2021, the Offshore Racing Association (ORA) will issue handicap ratings for the nearly 500 boats in the Gulf Yachting Association’s PHRF fleet, which is spread from western Florida to New Orleans. GYA fleet members will receive PHRF ratings for two course configurations and light- or medium-strength winds, each based on the ORA’s proprietary velocity prediction program (VPP). They will also receive benchmark ratings for spinnaker and non-spinnaker configurations to set class breaks.

The certificates will have a total of five spinnaker and five non-spinnakers ratings. Race organizers will have the option of applying the rating with a windward-leeward or random-leg configuration and wind strength for a given race—or they can select from the benchmark ratings, which average the other four.

According to Tom Beery, GYA-PHRF chairman and chief administrator, “For years we’ve tried to develop a multi-course rating system—recognizing that a single course is lacking in equity—but without great success primarily due to the subjective nature of assigning ratings. The addition of two different wind speeds is further desirable,” he says. “On the Gulf Coast, we have light conditions in summer and stronger breezes in the fall and spring.”

Beery also points out that use of the ORA system will reduce the workload on PHRF handicappers and administrators dramatically: “Previously, for a new boat, I would provide a lot of research to our Area Handicappers for their input on a provisional rating. Provisional ratings and appeals were then reviewed quarterly, and all ratings were considered at the annual board meeting based on our 40-year database of race results.”  

The new ratings supplied by ORA Rating Services are VPP “time on distance” ratings, converted to conventional PHRF ratings based on the relative difference to a control-boat rating. The GYA has chosen the J-35 spinnaker rating of 72 as the control-boat base rating for all conversions.

Beery has chaired the committee for 40 years and at age 81 believes a system based on the ORA’s science will provide fairer, more competitive racing and be much more manageable for his successors. The GYA-PHRF Committee will still ultimately control the ratings, but Beery expects they will rely mainly on the ratings delivered by ORA Rating Services.

Jay Tyson, head of ORA Rating Services, says, “The ORA is in business to make it easier for organizing authorities and race committees to deliver fair racing to sailors.” Tyson adds that ORA Rating Services can be customized to provide Beery and others like him with relevant boat-specific data plus management and rating processing to reduce their workload and deliver ratings to help them strengthen their fleets.

Using its VPP technology, ORA Rating Services provides custom services to help PHRF raters and race committees. It can also assist with scoring, certificate processing, reporting, training, and other services to help PHRF Fleets.

ORA Rating Services are currently used by PHRF fleets in Southern California, as well.

For more on ORA Rating Services, contact:

- Jay Tyson, ORA Rating Services

- John Horton, Executive Director

For GYA-PHRF, contact:

- Tom Beery, GYA-PHRF chairman

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is there is math involved and people get confused.  They would rather complain.  

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Ned said:

The problem is there is math involved and people get confused.  They would rather complain.  

The owners and sailors don't have to do any math.

But it seems everyone would rather bitch about PHRF instead of a real possible fix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just need an energizer bunny to get a bunch of boats that want to race together to pop for ORR-Ez ratings, then ask the OAs to invite them under ORR-Ez

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Just need an energizer bunny to get a bunch of boats that want to race together to pop for ORR-Ez ratings, then ask the OAs to invite them under ORR-Ez

 

The GYA is contracting for the conversion. They way I read it you will pay for your GYA PHRF Cert and they will submit the data to ORA and ORA will run the program to spit out PHRF ratings converted from the VPP program. It makes so much more sense to me then the current game. Sailors will still get to see the sec/mile phrf rating for several different wind ranges.

But if people would just sail their boats instead of looking at the sec/mile they might do better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, JimBowie said:

Take away Tits, Trump and PHRF and there ain't much to discuss hereabouts.  

You are so limited

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"You can have my PHRF rating when you ply my cold dead hands off of it; buddy".  I worked hard, politic-in, smoozing, buying drinks at the club bar and sandbagging every other race to snag that gift rating from Mr. Chief Handy Capper and have no intention of having some swarmy brainiac engineering nurd with a VPP app and portable supercomputer steal it from me!  Ain't no damn way in hell we here Sailbillys at the Lake Ullafalulaa Floating Yacht Club on Pier D gonna allow you smarty-pants Yanquis from north of the Mason-Dixon come in here and stir up the pot just so some young wannabe sportboat loving yuppy from the burbs can compete on his abilities and boat.  He can just earn his handicap they way we did, one small 3 sec tick at a time.

CAN I GET A GOD-FEARING AMEN?

 

from-my-cold-dead-hands-sticker.jpg

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, JimBowie said:

Take away Tits, Trump and PHRF and there ain't much to discuss hereabouts.  

You can have Trump and PHRF but leave the tits alone!

I found some big ones to show how important this issue is. It’s like caplocks for breasts

 

 

6346DD0A-2A60-4733-94E5-9FC31D6D6463.jpeg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AMEN!

Said softly from a lake here in NC where what you describe above is/WAS the norm.

Rating Protest forms are due in 6 days here and I want to be there for any discussion if I can..

Sail Safe!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Ned said:

The problem is there is math involved and people get confused.  They would rather complain.  

Would be a rather simple spread sheet...  perhaps access database for the more advanced record keeping. that outa make your ass pucker when you ask for a rating review  -Aye Jim!!

boats have a rating per wind speed the tough part is when does the rating shift? 

as early mornings lighter breeze afternoon breeze comes up. and the older boats might have to deal with the evening glass off..

come up with a better idea... till then lQQk Left.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots of people in the GYA will not be happy to lose what they thought was a harsh rating (really a Gift) to go with this scientific method ORA.     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, port tack said:

Lots of people in the GYA will not be happy to lose what they thought was a harsh rating (really a Gift) to go with this scientific method ORA.     

So we are damned if we do and damned if we don't?

 

People are haplessly hopeless

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why did they choose ORA rather than ORC, or ORR, or IRC?  Honest question. If we are going to go to a VPP based rating can’t we standardize on the VPP.  Here in the PNW it is ORC.  What is The advantage of ORA?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Roleur said:

Why did they choose ORA rather than ORC, or ORR, or IRC?  Honest question. If we are going to go to a VPP based rating can’t we standardize on the VPP.  Here in the PNW it is ORC.  What is The advantage of ORA?

ORA is the organization that administers ORR and ORR-ez (and ORR-mh for that matter). 

And the reason is that ORC doesn't offer what ORA is offering. IRC isn't a VPP based system. ORA is taking a subset of the ORR-ez VPP, normalizing it to the J35, and helping PHRF organizers with ratings that make sense. 

Oh, also, if you do anything with ORC then you are also dealing with US Ailing, who will take their pound of flesh no matter what their actual involvement is. ORA has the ability to affer a quality product at a reasonable price without having to involve a 3rd party "manager."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, AHoleMel said:

Would be a rather simple spread sheet...  perhaps access database for the more advanced record keeping. that outa make your ass pucker when you ask for a rating review  -Aye Jim!!

boats have a rating per wind speed the tough part is when does the rating shift? 

as early mornings lighter breeze afternoon breeze comes up. and the older boats might have to deal with the evening glass off..

come up with a better idea... till then lQQk Left.

 

At least with Transpac the rating matrix is based upon historical averages.  So, it's not based upon real time weather. I suspect for local shorter distance races the RC will declare what rating or matrix of ratings they will use prior to the start. Zero hour based ratings have been proposed. But, I think it will be a while before we get there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Roleur said:

Why did they choose ORA rather than ORC, or ORR, or IRC?  Honest question. If we are going to go to a VPP based rating can’t we standardize on the VPP.  Here in the PNW it is ORC.  What is The advantage of ORA?

Isn't US Sailing the owner/administrator of ORA/ORR/ORR-ez?? And they are the hopeless stewards of PHRF. So maybe this might be a happy marriage.

One can only hope so.

As for the wind range. weather can be fickle and volunteer RC who make the call will no doubt influenced by the sailors they respect even if they are wrong. This is the one issue I do not have an answer for. But declaring the wind range/rating prior to the race is a mistake. Just go out and sail fast. determine the average wind speed later.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Based on what it says in the article, boats will get 10 different ratings under this system.  Does the RC or OA pick the one they use, or does the skipper? What if the wind starts out at 20 knots until the first boat finishes and then goes to 4 knots for the rest of the fleet?  Do you use the rating for an average wind speed 12 knots? 8 knots? Is the rating selected before the race, or can you wait until after?  Do they allow ToT since the slower boats, are going to take a LOT longer in 4 knots of breeze?  Perhaps the RC can figure that there are 20 slow boats and only one fast one, so the rating for light conditions prevails, since that makes the race fairer for the most boats?  Applying 10 different ratings sure sounds exciting, and so much more exact, precise, and scientific than one. ;) 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, JimBowie said:

"You can have my PHRF rating when you ply my cold dead hands off of it; buddy".  I worked hard, politic-in, smoozing, buying drinks at the club bar and sandbagging every other race to snag that gift rating from Mr. Chief Handy Capper and have no intention of having some swarmy brainiac engineering nurd with a VPP app and portable supercomputer steal it from me!  Ain't no damn way in hell we here Sailbillys at the Lake Ullafalulaa Floating Yacht Club on Pier D gonna allow you smarty-pants Yanquis from north of the Mason-Dixon come in here and stir up the pot just so some young wannabe sportboat loving yuppy from the burbs can compete on his abilities and boat.  He can just earn his handicap they way we did, one small 3 sec tick at a time.

CAN I GET A GOD-FEARING AMEN?

 

 

We just send the twins in to the rating review board meeting. No paperwork needed except sail number and they get whatever they ask for. Luckily the do not have a dress code at the YC they hold the meetings at.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, PaulK said:

Based on what it says in the article, boats will get 10 different ratings under this system.  Does the RC or OA pick the one they use, or does the skipper? What if the wind starts out at 20 knots until the first boat finishes and then goes to 4 knots for the rest of the fleet?  Do you use the rating for an average wind speed 12 knots? 8 knots? Is the rating selected before the race, or can you wait until after?  Do they allow ToT since the slower boats, are going to take a LOT longer in 4 knots of breeze?  Perhaps the RC can figure that there are 20 slow boats and only one fast one, so the rating for light conditions prevails, since that makes the race fairer for the most boats?  Applying 10 different ratings sure sounds exciting, and so much more exact, precise, and scientific than one. ;) 

Maybe you could allow two of the 10 wind strength ratings as throw outs for each race, declared by each skipper flying signal flags indicating which ratings would be said throw outs during the first half of the race, or the second turning mark, average the remaining 8 ratings numbers, and that number would be multiplied by a secret weighted derivitive based on the square root of the distance of a fair longitudinal line located 3mm above an unspecified part of the hull, say the buttwater,  and that would calculate official race results based on modifying the elapsed time of each boat, depending on its class?  Each throw out could be protested during the race, by any skipper or crew member, but not the owner of any boat, racing or not, and then results could be adjudged and modified by a protest committee after the race.  Results would be posted no later than 2 weeks after the conclusion of the last race of any series or individual race.
 

Sounds like yacht racing to me. :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back in the day,  when IMS was still alive the wind strengths were generally decided after the last boat had completed the course.

In some races the windspeed was calculated from the elapsed time of a selected finisher or finishers.

I have sat in the dock,  well the bar really,  (the day after finishing), and had two boats that finished ahead of us on line pass us on handicap as the wind had dropped out for the smaller boats still out there,  meaning a different windspeed was applied to the final results from that used when the progress results had been calculated earlier.

In the windspeed at the time we finished we were second,  by the time the little boats arrived we calculated to 4th.  the silly bit was that because the wind had dropped out on them,  none of the small boats figured in the placings but the extra time it took them effected the placings of the other boats.

There WILL be anomalies with any system where we don't sail one design/level rating.  But I don't like your boat & you don't like mine,  so handicap or ratings it is.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wonder why Jason Ker boats do well in ORC.................

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny how Jason Ker’s name pops up in threads like this- back when Charles Seeger was expanding my tiny little mind about the nature of beauty in music, he slid a tome across the table, & looking like he had the punchline to the best joke ever, suggested I might find it amusing.  It was the product of an Argentine school of philosophy, and I wish I had just kept it instead of giving it back, because even though I’ve looked and looked, I’ve never run across it again. Their particular definition of beauty was that it was exactly the 50th percentile of any discrete aesthetic system, and they had spent a lot of time scrutinizing the beauty of a lot of systems in excruciating detail. An annoying but useful bit of kit. ^_^  Corelli not Schoenberg?  But maybe Schoenberg was necessary, at least when he was young.  Bernard Smith too.  Expanding the matrix.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, JimBowie said:

"You can have my PHRF rating when you ply my cold dead hands off of it; buddy".  I worked hard, politic-in, smoozing, buying drinks at the club bar and sandbagging every other race to snag that gift rating from Mr. Chief Handy Capper and have no intention of having some swarmy brainiac engineering nurd with a VPP app and portable supercomputer steal it from me!  Ain't no damn way in hell we here Sailbillys at the Lake Ullafalulaa Floating Yacht Club on Pier D gonna allow you smarty-pants Yanquis from north of the Mason-Dixon come in here and stir up the pot just so some young wannabe sportboat loving yuppy from the burbs can compete on his abilities and boat.  He can just earn his handicap they way we did, one small 3 sec tick at a time.

CAN I GET A GOD-FEARING AMEN?

 

from-my-cold-dead-hands-sticker.jpg

It seems that Florida and the Gulf Coast is now north of the Mason-Dixon Line? It's not Yanquis doing this. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, PaulK said:

Based on what it says in the article, boats will get 10 different ratings under this system.  Does the RC or OA pick the one they use, or does the skipper? What if the wind starts out at 20 knots until the first boat finishes and then goes to 4 knots for the rest of the fleet?  Do you use the rating for an average wind speed 12 knots? 8 knots? Is the rating selected before the race, or can you wait until after?  Do they allow ToT since the slower boats, are going to take a LOT longer in 4 knots of breeze?  Perhaps the RC can figure that there are 20 slow boats and only one fast one, so the rating for light conditions prevails, since that makes the race fairer for the most boats?  Applying 10 different ratings sure sounds exciting, and so much more exact, precise, and scientific than one. ;) 

9 hours ago, Amati said:

Maybe you could allow two of the 10 wind strength ratings as throw outs for each race, declared by each skipper flying signal flags indicating which ratings would be said throw outs during the first half of the race, or the second turning mark, average the remaining 8 ratings numbers, and that number would be multiplied by a secret weighted derivitive based on the square root of the distance of a fair longitudinal line located 3mm above an unspecified part of the hull, say the buttwater,  and that would calculate official race results based on modifying the elapsed time of each boat, depending on its class?  Each throw out could be protested during the race, by any skipper or crew member, but not the owner of any boat, racing or not, and then results could be adjudged and modified by a protest committee after the race.  Results would be posted no later than 2 weeks after the conclusion of the last race of any series or individual race.
 

Sounds like yacht racing to me. :rolleyes:

It will be tough to figure out at first. an example might be several different classes on a 30 mile RLC. Big boats finish with the breeze and therefore have a different wind range while the smaller boats struggle with a dying breeze. Many SO Cal races come to mind.

Depending on the area someone, like USS will step up (LOL), will have to make some guidelines.

No matter what wind range rating they use. in order to secure a podium finish you will need to sail smart and as fast as you can make your boat go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/9/2020 at 12:36 PM, Sail4beer said:

You can have Trump and PHRF but leave the tits alone!

I found some big ones to show how important this issue is. It’s like caplocks for breasts

 

 

6346DD0A-2A60-4733-94E5-9FC31D6D6463.jpeg

She has the hands of a gorilla! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/9/2020 at 8:44 PM, Meat Wad said:

Isn't US Sailing the owner/administrator of ORA/ORR/ORR-ez??

NO NO NO NO NO! ORA: Offshore Racing Association OWNS the VPP for ORR and ORR-ez. US Sailing administers ORR as the clearinghouse to ORA (until January 1). ORR-ez is strictly through ORA with no US Sailing involvement.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/9/2020 at 9:12 PM, PaulK said:

Based on what it says in the article, boats will get 10 different ratings under this system.  Does the RC or OA pick the one they use, or does the skipper? What if the wind starts out at 20 knots until the first boat finishes and then goes to 4 knots for the rest of the fleet?  Do you use the rating for an average wind speed 12 knots? 8 knots? Is the rating selected before the race, or can you wait until after?  Do they allow ToT since the slower boats, are going to take a LOT longer in 4 knots of breeze?  Perhaps the RC can figure that there are 20 slow boats and only one fast one, so the rating for light conditions prevails, since that makes the race fairer for the most boats?  Applying 10 different ratings sure sounds exciting, and so much more exact, precise, and scientific than one. ;) 

The course and wind speed are chosen by the OA. The wind bands are pretty wide, and most SI's in Mass are written to allow the wind range to be changed up to the first boat in a class finishing. When in doubt, use the random/medium. it's really not that hard. I am not sure if the ORA-1 product has ToT numbers as well as the ToD.

Perfection is the enemy of the good. No one should be claiming that VPP-based ratings cure everything, but they are significantly *better* than single number systems. And what's great is that whether it's ORC or ORR, every year there are reviews and improvements and changes based on science and observation - it's built into the systems. If nothing else, people looking at these systems have forced PHRF organizations to start looking at their own systems and start to revise ratings and debits/credits. Anything that moves the needle is a good thing, don't you think?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moving the needle which way?  Having to select the course and windspeed for each race opens the OA to complaints and puts another layer of fog between ratings and verifying how "correct" the VPP actually is in determining them in each different situation.  Olin Stephens told me that had great trust in VPP's and calculations. That's why the IOR that he championed is still so popular. (This is being said sarcastically.)  VPP's  are great for comparing relative points in constant conditions - like in a towing tank.  Out in the open, the situation is entirely different.  A boat with a "fast" underwater shape might not have the right freeboard, flare, or weight to keep from getting stopped by the chop on Buzzards Bay.  A "slow" boat, though heavier,  might do quite well in the smoother water of Long Island Sound, even in less wind.  Generating a rating that goes out to two, three, or four decimal places or significant figures does not make it any more accurate than a single digit if the windspeed selected is off.  And who knows how accurate the calculated rating is in the first place? Envisaging an "average" situation, as PHRF does, eliminates the issue of determining the windspeed and course for each race, so there are complaints about the ratings. These can be addressed by the PHRF committees, locally.  Requiring the OA to determine the course and windspeed for each race focuses complaints on the OA and not on the ratings. Can an OA be petitioned to change or adjust the criteria for a race or series because they got it wrong?  ORA avoids being questioned because, like IRC, they are distant arbiters and the long numbers are too impressive to be doubted. Many racers seem to have voted  to opt out of IRC, despite its "precision".  Let's see how this permutation works out. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

to me any non dollar adjusted system misses the point

it is all about dollars

he who spends the most should have that reflected in any rating system

both on the hardware and the other expenses like paid crew, el-tricks, bottom prep, and many other costly tricks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/12/2020 at 8:01 PM, ryley said:

NO NO NO NO NO! ORA: Offshore Racing Association OWNS the VPP for ORR and ORR-ez. US Sailing administers ORR as the clearinghouse to ORA (until January 1). ORR-ez is strictly through ORA with no US Sailing involvement.

Thanks, that clears things up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With participation at all time lows on our bay (3 clubs) and Hurricane Sally recently taking her toll, I am not sure if the timing is right for switching to a  sophisticated and more complex albeit better rating system. Our mission continues to be getting traditionally non racing cruisers and juniors more involved. GYA rating breaks for older furniture boats, roller furling credits (with sunbrella) no penalties for cruising chutes etc have all helped in this goal. Not sure if that all goes away under the new gya system but if it does are we at risk of throwing the baby out with the bath water? I guess we are not obligated to use the GYA system for bay races but multiple systems will be confusing to non racers and newbies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why bother? A new rule develops, gains adherents, gets established as THE rule and all is well. Until dissatisfaction for the rule builds to a critical point, a new rule develops and repeat. This has been going on as long as sailboats have been racing.

 
90% of sailors don't care. They just want to go out on Wednesday night and have a good time. My club gets 30 boats out on a Wednesday night. 2 or 3 will participate in regional week end races. Once in a while 1 will do a class national or NOOD race. By and large PHRF serves their needs.
 
That is not to say that there aren't problems with PHRF. It is not the concept of rating boats based on observed performance that is the problem. It is the application of the rule.
 
PHRF is based on regional sailing associations. Look at the by laws of your sailing association and you will find that it is a self perpetrating old boys club. They say that the sailors are the members but you are not. You are the clients. You pays your fee and you gets your rating certificate. Your club is the member and there is no way to effect change.  The administrators of the association are appointed by already established administrators. No one is elected, no one can be voted out.
 
It is not an unusual model for fraternal associations and it works pretty well. The part of the sailing association that is most involved with PHRF is the handicap committee. If your handicap committee is made up of active sailors who actually race and are out there and actually observe the performance of other boats you are in pretty good shape. If they are active and meet regularly, review rule changes in other regions, review ratings of boats in the fleet that are performing exceptionally well or poorly, if they discuss the performance of new and unusual boats in the fleet, if they meet to hear handicap appeals, then you have a really good handicap committee.
 
Many are not and do not and there is not much you can do about it. Maybe the only thing you can do is out them as was done to WLIS some years ago.
 
My handicap committee is pretty good, most are racers, they meet regularly, they select 10 or 15 boats to review each year, the hear handicap appeals, they review the rating adjustment rules regularly, they are active. 
 
They are not perfect. Most members have been on the committee for 20 years, the chief handicaper 30 years and he doesn't race anymore and owns a power boat. The newest member has been on for 5 years, the replacement for a member who died. They see their main job a protecting the fleet. Anything new or different is suspect. They already know everything there is to know about sailboat racing so don't try to tell them different. Can't abide those pesky sport boats, those large roach jibs, illegal. They make sure any innovation is quashed, twice the penalty of any benefit. And this is a good handicap committee.
 
Still and all PHRF is the best handicap rule for 90% of the sailors. The rest of you can go play with the rule of the month.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing I never understood about PHRF administration is that it is supposed to be performance based.  So you would think performance observations would be collected in some formal manner.  I am not aware that clubs submit race reports to any group.  Instead PHRF really seems to be more of mathematical comparison (sail area, displacement, etc.) compared to a "known" base boat - I think I remember it was the J-35. 

Maybe the observations/comparisons do occur regionally on an informal level, but that relies on subjective memories and only in events that a technical committee actually participated in. PHRF possibly could have been improved if there was reporting of results plus conditions (wind speed, sea state, etc.) to a group that somehow crunched numbers.  Then put those "average" numbers out to regional groups.  I know, lots of underlying subjective observations, plus the differences in well sorted boats/crews against boats with 10 year old sails and newcomers.  

In the end, it is a recreational hobby for almost everyone.  I don't get too worried about handicap results; we know when we sailed well or when we screwed up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, sailorman44 said:

Why bother? A new rule develops, gains adherents, gets established as THE rule and all is well. Until dissatisfaction for the rule builds to a critical point, a new rule develops and repeat. This has been going on as long as sailboats have been racing.

 

It is not a new rule. ORA are converting ORR/ORRez ratings into PHRF Sec/mile ratings. Thus giving a better place to start with a new boat. Other boats that may have been gifted ratings will have to be looked at.

 

1 hour ago, BayRacer said:

One thing I never understood about PHRF administration is that it is supposed to be performance based.  So you would think performance observations would be collected in some formal manner.  I am not aware that clubs submit race reports to any group.  Instead PHRF really seems to be more of mathematical comparison (sail area, displacement, etc.) compared to a "known" base boat - I think I remember it was the J-35. 

Maybe the observations/comparisons do occur regionally on an informal level, but that relies on subjective memories and only in events that a technical committee actually participated in. PHRF possibly could have been improved if there was reporting of results plus conditions (wind speed, sea state, etc.) to a group that somehow crunched numbers.  Then put those "average" numbers out to regional groups.  I know, lots of underlying subjective observations, plus the differences in well sorted boats/crews against boats with 10 year old sails and newcomers.  

In the end, it is a recreational hobby for almost everyone.  I don't get too worried about handicap results; we know when we sailed well or when we screwed up.

I brought that up with our Regional board. I thought it would be good to have a place where all YC's could submit race results.
We know that many of the online tools will store your result data but searching for a specific type of boat and all the results from other regions is impossible. Once I did have Luis at Yacht Scoring give me a DB dump of a certain class of boat for comparisons.

But you are right, there should be a place to look things like results up. This is another failure of US Sailing who should be doing this.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But, 

are results indicative of what a VPP would put out?

A winning boat may just have:

1. A sorted boat AND bottom

2. Sailed well for the conditions or just went the correct way that first beat.

Just say 'an. 

Sail Safe!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, sailorman44 said:

Why bother? A new rule develops, gains adherents, gets established as THE rule and all is well. Until dissatisfaction for the rule builds to a critical point, a new rule develops and repeat. This has been going on as long as sailboats have been racing.

 
 

Simply everyones life. Go race and let the kids determine the results

Darts-63-big.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, VWAP said:

Simply everyones life. Go race and let the kids determine the results

Darts-63-big.jpg

until some twat slips the kid a Benny  in the YC parking Lot ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/16/2020 at 3:53 PM, Meat Wad said:

It is not a new rule. ORA are converting ORR/ORRez ratings into PHRF Sec/mile ratings. Thus giving a better place to start with a new boat. Other boats that may have been gifted ratings will have to be looked at.

ORR has been around for a while gaining traction. Now it is trying to become THE rule.

 
ORRez does tick the affordable box as long as the boat is in the database. What is the cost of measuring a new boat or a one off that is not in the database? Not so cheap. Unless you are a serious racer with a $50,000 program, not so affordable.
 
I have given up on PHRF. Decided to just do club races and Off Soundings. My club measurer  plugged my boats numbers into a spread sheet he developed and came up with a rating that was pretty close to my old PHRF rating. The Off Soundings measurer plugged my numbers into HIS spread sheet and came up with the same rating. Both spread sheets, developed independently, are based on the published PHRF handbook. In contrast, it took PHRF 16 years and 9 hearings to get my rating close to what the spread sheet did in a minute.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, sailorman44 said:

ORRez does tick the affordable box as long as the boat is in the database. What is the cost of measuring a new boat or a one off that is not in the database? Not so cheap. Unless you are a serious racer with a $50,000 program, not so affordable.

My Zap 26 was not in the database. I filled out the form paid my $100 and got a rating that the VPP spit out. It was not a bunch of people sitting around a table and saying "well this boat is like this boat sort of? I I decided to Mod and turbo the boat, I would probably have to get measured.
But I am getting a bit worn being 63 now and 22 years as a T11 Para. Sailing is just getting harder and harder. So I will not be dumping my disposable income in sailing much longer.

I think the rating people are really trying hard to make it better, but some of you haters just can't stop hating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

My Zap 26 was not in the database. I filled out the form paid my $100 and got a rating that the VPP spit out. It was not a bunch of people sitting around a table and saying "well this boat is like this boat sort of? I I decided to Mod and turbo the boat, I would probably have to get measured.
But I am getting a bit worn being 63 now and 22 years as a T11 Para. Sailing is just getting harder and harder. So I will not be dumping my disposable income in sailing much longer.

I think the rating people are really trying hard to make it better, but some of you haters just can't stop hating.

There’s only one hater here... maybe time to look in the mirror....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sailorman,

if your boat is not in the ORR-ez database it costs exactly $0 for ORA to develop a hull file for your boat. Granted, without accurate measurements, a designer with a hull file, or good pictures, the hull file will be a best guess the first time it's generated. if you want to spend the money to get your hull measured, awesome, but that information will be put together into an offset file for FREE for an ORR-ez certificate. 

you won't get that deal on an ORC certificate for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now