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On 11/20/2019 at 7:12 AM, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

We'll have to agree to disagree, but, I'll remind you that the basis upon which all or our laws is predicated is the protection of the minority from the tyranny of the majority. 

 

On 7/9/2020 at 1:46 AM, Burning Man said:

I don't hate the people.  I just don't trust the ignorant masses to do the right thing anymore than the FF's did.  They were right and still are right about not trusting the whims of the fickle masses.  They were very much against, and for good reason, the tyranny of the majority.

So I've necroed a few comments which illustrate something I was pondering the other day.

How can you argue like this and keep a straight face? Why is the Tyranny of the Minority more acceptable?

 

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You can say that the US system, such as it is, is designed to prevent the "tyranny of the majority", 

or you can just be honest and admit that it's all about ensuring and cementing the tyranny of the oligarchy. 

As George Carlin quite correctly observed, "It's a big club, and you ain't in it." 

Which is why we cannot have nice things like M4A, $15 and much else. 

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Keep in mind that Socrates was condemned to death by a majority vote.

Be careful what you ask for because you might get it...

FKT

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14 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Keep in mind that Socrates was condemned to death by a majority vote.

Be careful what you ask for because you might get it...

FKT

Bad example. Socrates was convicted by a majority of (male) citizens jurors chosen by lot. Slaves and women were excluded.

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16 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

Bad example. Socrates was convicted by a majority of (male) citizens jurors chosen by lot. Slaves and women were excluded.

And so? Still a majority of qualified voters.

OK another example. Post 9/11 if a majority of voters supported a vote to deport all people professing the Islamic faith, would that be OK with you guys? If not then why not, if a simple majority rules?

Are you guys decrying the protection of minorities getting the point yet or should I just keep posting more questions of what could happen under a 'pure' democracy where 50.001% can override the rest?

FKT

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16 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

OK another example. Post 9/11 if a majority of voters supported a vote to deport all people professing the Islamic faith, would that be OK with you guys? If not then why not, if a simple majority rules?

No, it would not be ok with me.  The majority often gets things wrong, and that would be wrong.  Have you ever heard Trump say Islamic without prefixing it with Radical and suffixing it with Terrorist.  I have friends who are Islamic, guess what, they worry about paying their bills, the education and safety of their children, and how to get by in this crazy world.  They have adopted the US as their home country and that by itself is not easy, but they have and they work at their citizenship each day and take nothing for granted.  These are people I would be happy to have as neighbors.  Gomer in his monster truck adorned with Trump and Confederate flags can stay the fuck away from me.  

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29 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

No, it would not be ok with me.  The majority often gets things wrong, and that would be wrong.  Have you ever heard Trump say Islamic without prefixing it with Radical and suffixing it with Terrorist.  I have friends who are Islamic, guess what, they worry about paying their bills, the education and safety of their children, and how to get by in this crazy world.  They have adopted the US as their home country and that by itself is not easy, but they have and they work at their citizenship each day and take nothing for granted.  These are people I would be happy to have as neighbors.  Gomer in his monster truck adorned with Trump and Confederate flags can stay the fuck away from me.  

Yep - you get why the simplistic 'majority rules and fuck the minorities' can and always does lead to massive injustice for the minorities.

That was exactly my point - the tyranny of the majority is a thing to be feared and constrained.

FKT

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2 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Keep in mind that Socrates was condemned to death by a majority vote.

Be careful what you ask for because you might get it...

FKT

And Jesus was executed for public speaking without a permit...

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

And so? Still a majority of qualified voters.

OK another example. Post 9/11 if a majority of voters supported a vote to deport all people professing the Islamic faith, would that be OK with you guys? If not then why not, if a simple majority rules?

Are you guys decrying the protection of minorities getting the point yet or should I just keep posting more questions of what could happen under a 'pure' democracy where 50.001% can override the rest?

FKT

That's why we have a supreme court.

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38 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

That's why we have a supreme court.

A member of the majority on 1 issue may find themselves in the minority on another.

The power of any group over another gets restricted by things like supreme courts, constitutions, etc.

 

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Pure democracy is a horrible thing. There are plenty of places in the USA that at one time or another would have gleefully passed utterly terrible laws with more than 50% agreeing. The endless turmoil in Europe and specifically England where Catholics and Protestants could take turns murdering each other depending on who had the upper hand was not that long ago. A plan to strip the citizenship from all Muslims and deport them probably would have passed on 9/12/01 with more than 50%.

This is why we have a constitutional republic. I will grant you it comes no where close to perfect and a cynical eye could be turned onto the late 1700s and come to the conclusion this was the 1%ers getting rid of the only authority over them and once the crown was gone they had NO intention of the rabble voting on their affairs and especially not hillbilly trash that were mostly runaway indentured servants and that goes double for actual slaves - those idiots would surely vote to free themselves and screw everything up :rolleyes: So we started out with white male property owners running everything and it wasn't perfect, but the idea was planted that all men were equal and we sort of crept toward that in fits and starts ever since, recent events excepted.

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

And Jesus was executed for public speaking without a permit...

Jesus and Socrates were both terrible defendants hell bent on becoming martyrs. Bad examples.

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17 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Pure democracy is a horrible thing. There are plenty of places in the USA that at one time or another would have gleefully passed utterly terrible laws with more than 50% agreeing. The endless turmoil in Europe and specifically England where Catholics and Protestants could take turns murdering each other depending on who had the upper hand was not that long ago. A plan to strip the citizenship from all Muslims and deport them probably would have passed on 9/12/01 with more than 50%.

This is why we have a constitutional republic. I will grant you it comes no where close to perfect and a cynical eye could be turned onto the late 1700s and come to the conclusion this was the 1%ers getting rid of the only authority over them and once the crown was gone they had NO intention of the rabble voting on their affairs and especially not hillbilly trash that were mostly runaway indentured servants and that goes double for actual slaves - those idiots would surely vote to free themselves and screw everything up :rolleyes: So we started out with white male property owners running everything and it wasn't perfect, but the idea was planted that all men were equal and we sort of crept toward that in fits and starts ever since, recent events excepted.

^ Post of the year ^

Well said, sir, damn well said

- DSK

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9 hours ago, Battlecheese said:

 

So I've necroed a few comments which illustrate something I was pondering the other day.

How can you argue like this and keep a straight face? Why is the Tyranny of the Minority more acceptable?

 

You miss the entire point, because you're starting from a false assumption.

Allowing the minority the same rights as the majority and the same opportunities isn't tyranny.  And unfortunately, because of human nature, that doesn't happen naturally unless we help it along.  Human beings are tribalistic - go figure.  If left to their own devices they naturally migrate toward being with other like-minded people.  That means that the 'majority' quickly begins to distance the minority without even meaning to do it.

This is the entire basis of systemic racism, so if you don't get that you're not going to get this either.

Pulling yourself up "by your bootstraps" is a great idea.  Hard work should be rewarded.  But different groups of people are playing on completely different fields because of majority/minority bias.

Of course, this goes back to what I've said a number of times.  Culture and society have to be a shared ideal.  An idea that you are all in it together and pulling in the same direction and that helping eachother as much as possible is the right thing to do.  America's me-first philosophy of greed results in a belief that 'freedom' means doing whatever you want and fuck everyone else.  That's not a culture.  It's a recipe for a shit country.  Kent and FKT nailed it.

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I'm not going to touch my above post because I'm happy with it, but I'm going to add to it.  It constantly amazes me that members of our armed forces are some of the biggest "freedom means doing whatever you want" style nutjobs on the planet.  These guys are trained hard.  They have it BEATEN into them that in battle, the team comes first.  You follow orders, and you support your team mates.  Yet somehow that idea doesn't necessarily translate over to the public at large after they leave the service - especially for the short-term guys.

I fully support our armed forces.  I just don't understand why many of them can't make the transition in their thinking.

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28 minutes ago, Olsonist said:
2 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

And Jesus was executed for public speaking without a permit...

Jesus and Socrates were both terrible defendants hell bent on becoming martyrs. Bad examples.

My understanding is that Socrates was actually on trial for persuading people to overthrow a relatively democratically elected gov't, basically he was a noble philosopher who intended that he and his fellow noble philosophers should rule autocratically over his neighbors.

Jesus was executed for trying to start a rebellion against an autocratic gov't that was attempting to be benevolent, layered over a local theo/aristo/cracy that had no benevolent intentions and wanted to boot out Rome (which, according to the gospels, Jesus wanted no part of).

I don't know if they -wanted- to be martyrs, ahead of time, but both seemed to accept it.

- DSK

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10 hours ago, roundthebuoys said:

Yeah, Jeff, and then the Bill of Rights were written to actually get the Constitution passed.

Yup, there needed to be some bounds placed on the federal government.  So, after saying that congress could pass laws there were some bounds to that ability.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Pure democracy is a horrible thing. There are plenty of places in the USA that at one time or another would have gleefully passed utterly terrible laws with more than 50% agreeing. The endless turmoil in Europe and specifically England where Catholics and Protestants could take turns murdering each other depending on who had the upper hand was not that long ago. A plan to strip the citizenship from all Muslims and deport them probably would have passed on 9/12/01 with more than 50%.

This is why we have a constitutional republic. I will grant you it comes no where close to perfect and a cynical eye could be turned onto the late 1700s and come to the conclusion this was the 1%ers getting rid of the only authority over them and once the crown was gone they had NO intention of the rabble voting on their affairs and especially not hillbilly trash that were mostly runaway indentured servants and that goes double for actual slaves - those idiots would surely vote to free themselves and screw everything up :rolleyes: So we started out with white male property owners running everything and it wasn't perfect, but the idea was planted that all men were equal and we sort of crept toward that in fits and starts ever since, recent events excepted.

That was "all men are CREATED equal" there was no guarantee that the state would exist in perpetuity.

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4 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

And so? Still a majority of qualified voters.

OK another example. Post 9/11 if a majority of voters supported a vote to deport all people professing the Islamic faith, would that be OK with you guys? If not then why not, if a simple majority rules?

 

Your question is nonsense in a hypothetical about due process or religious persecution, the laws about which can only be changed by a ⅔ supermajority.  Try again.

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In the US there is a pervasive fear of majority rule - what the anti-dem philosophers referred to as the "mob". 

But in fact, parliamentary systems have often had majority support without even having a bill of rights - they have courts and precedent to protect minorities. (Canada for example had no bill of rights until 1960). 

How do y'all know that popular democratic rule will not work - since after all it has almost never been tried?  The Israeli kibbutzim work pretty well. 

And Socrates may have said and done things, but mostly he was a myth created by Plato to make some points - among them how awful democracy was. In fact, Plato's students overthrew Athenian democracy by inviting in the Spartan oligarchs who were only kicked out after a mass uprising of the Athenian people. His students seized power and proceeded to do a far worse job than the democrats. 

There is a reason that Plato has come down to us, and that is because his message supports the principle of oligarchic rule. The works of the many ancient Greeks who favored democracy have been systematically sought out and destroyed over the centuries - many by the minions of the catholic church. Only fragments remain. 

Covered in part here . .  https://www.britannica.com/biography/Socrates/The-publics-hatred-of-Socrates

 

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14 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

In the US there is a pervasive fear of majority rule - what the anti-dem philosophers referred to as the "mob". 

But in fact, parliamentary systems have often had majority support without even having a bill of rights - they have courts and precedent to protect minorities. (Canada for example had no bill of rights until 1960). 

How do y'all know that popular democratic rule will not work - since after all it has almost never been tried?  The Israeli kibbutzim work pretty well. 

And Socrates may have said and done things, but mostly he was a myth created by Plato to make some points - among them how awful democracy was. In fact, Plato's students overthrew Athenian democracy by inviting in the Spartan oligarchs who were only kicked out after a mass uprising of the Athenian people. His students seized power and proceeded to do a far worse job than the democrats. 

There is a reason that Plato has come down to us, and that is because his message supports the principle of oligarchic rule. The works of the many ancient Greeks who favored democracy have been systematically sought out and destroyed over the centuries - many by the minions of the catholic church. Only fragments remain. 

Covered in part here . .  https://www.britannica.com/biography/Socrates/The-publics-hatred-of-Socrates

 

I thought the reason for dislike of Socrates was based on the common (mis)understanding of "the Socratic Method" which most people see as being an annoying gadfly irritating both sides of any disagreement.

No wonder the fucker was put to death

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Grrr... said:

I'm not going to touch my above post because I'm happy with it, but I'm going to add to it.  It constantly amazes me that members of our armed forces are some of the biggest "freedom means doing whatever you want" style nutjobs on the planet.  These guys are trained hard.  They have it BEATEN into them that in battle, the team comes first.  You follow orders, and you support your team mates.  Yet somehow that idea doesn't necessarily translate over to the public at large after they leave the service - especially for the short-term guys.

I fully support our armed forces.  I just don't understand why many of them can't make the transition in their thinking.

My impression is that most of those guys would be a lot worse, if they hadn't served.  That what you're describing is typical of the demographics they're recruited from; and compared to their non-military peers, they're much less prone to that shit.

 

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15 minutes ago, frenchie said:

My impression is that most of those guys would be a lot worse, if they hadn't served.  That what you're describing is typical of the demographics they're recruited from; and compared to their non-military peers, they're much less prone to that shit.

 

Huh.  I'd never thought about it that way.  

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7 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:
10 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Did they ever teach the magna Carta in America?

I learned about it, YMMV.

Same here.

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Ease the sheet. said:

So you all realise there's nothing new or special about the American constitution?

I wouldn't go that far, but it obviously came from men educated in the classics and with a deep knowledge of British history.  I have read a good argument that they were just guaranteeing the rights *they thought they always had* until King George reminded them not so much in the colonies :rolleyes: The (in)famous 2nd Amendment came from the British disbanding and disarming local militias so the locals could pay a tax to have the British do the job for them that they used to do for free IIRC, it was NOT about running around shooting and kidnapping governors from the other political party for just one example and the Whiskey Rebels and their Rebellion found out right quick that there was no overthrowing the government just because.

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10 hours ago, Grrr... said:

Huh.  I'd never thought about it that way.  

I first noticed it back when everyone was arguing about the Iraq war.  I was spending a lot of time on a construction-related forum (which, of course, was full of blue-collar small-town republicans).  I was still figuring out how different politics are, in the US, than in Canada... anyways, I couldn't help but notice that the people I could have a sane political conversation with, were almost all ex-military.  It held true when the topics shifted to gay marriage, or immigration, or whatever.

Might just be a side-effect of who signs up in the first place, though.  "I'm gonna risk my life for the greater good" (even if/when it turns out to be bullshit) is going to draw a certain type.  "I want a life of adventure", too...  

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2 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Did they ever teach the magna Carta in America?

They teach next to nothing that isn't American.

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5 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

They teach next to nothing that isn't American.

the magna carta is not american?

 

fuck, so it must be irrelevant or totallly misunderstood then......

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2 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Did they ever teach the magna Carta in America?

Do they teach kids in the UK or the Commonwealth nations that 

the the entire British aristocracy is descended from people (OK, terrorists) 

that used to hunt folks like us for sport ? 

I'll bet they don't - well, maybe in Ireland 

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On 10/9/2020 at 10:09 PM, AJ Oliver said:

Do they teach kids in the UK or the Commonwealth nations that . . 

Good way to terminate a conversation . . . 

Seriously, do they teach that? 

I admit I did not know it until I was about 35 or so. 

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On 10/10/2020 at 1:09 PM, AJ Oliver said:

Do they teach kids in the UK or the Commonwealth nations that 

the the entire British aristocracy is descended from people (OK, terrorists) 

that used to hunt folks like us for sport ? 

I'll bet they don't - well, maybe in Ireland 

Um actually in Australia they do/did. But then again, until recently we were about 40% irish descent .

Australian History back when I was in High school leant heavily on the evil Squattocracy , The hero's of the Eureka Stockade, The greedy rum Corps, Flogging parsons, the syphilitic and corrupt McAurthur and the efforts made by various governors to elevate "ticket of leave" men (ex convicts)

We've never worshiped the British aristocracy or that part of our heritage as you seem to be implying.

Rebellion against such is an integral part of being Australian.

Neither do we worship the entrepreneur like you do.

Giving everyone a "A Fair Go" is  as Australian as Vegemite.

We have a deep suspicion of Upper Class wankery and employing a Maid or butler is almost unheard of.

I think American's get confused about Australia because the Queen is still our Head of State and can't seem to get a referendum passed to get rid of her.

The reasons for that are solid but it would take a lot more time and a separate thread with much roaring and sledging to explain..even if anyone were interested. :D

 

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2 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Um actually in Australia they do/did. But then again, until recently we were about 40% irish descent .

Australian History back when I was in High school leant heavily on the evil Squattocracy , The hero's of the Eureka Stockade, The greedy rum Corps, Flogging parsons, the syphilitic and corrupt McAurthur and the efforts made by various governors to elevate "ticket of leave" men (ex convicts)

We've never worshiped the British aristocracy or that part of our heritage as you seem to be implying.

Rebellion against such is an integral part of being Australian.

Neither do we worship the entrepreneur like you do.

Giving everyone a "A Fair Go" is  as Australian as Vegemite.

We have a deep suspicion of Upper Class wankery and employing a Maid or butler is almost unheard of.

I think American's get confused about Australia because the Queen is still our Head of State and can't seem to get a referendum passed to get rid of her.

The reasons for that are solid but it would take a lot more time and a separate thread with much roaring and sledging to explain..even if anyone were interested. :D

 

but we all want a cleaner and gardener.....

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On 10/9/2020 at 9:52 PM, SloopJonB said:

They teach next to nothing that isn't American.

You know the USA is a big place and all the schools are not the exact same ;)

For one example, my son took two AP level World History classes and my niece did the International Baccalaureate program. Total thread drift, but this explains the fierce fighting that goes on re school districts. Moving a district over can have a HUGE impact on the quality of the school and real estate values reflect that. Try and rezone someone from the "kids go to Costa Rica on field trips school and get in top colleges" school to "we don't have air conditioning" school you have a fight on your hands!

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13 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

but we all want a cleaner and gardener.....

I did have a person pick up ex's shirts for ironing back in the day.:P

Well I wasn't going to be bloody Mrs. Preen 

You're probably too young to remember the "daddy, there's wrinkle in your shirt collar " ad.

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2 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

You know the USA is a big place and all the schools are not the exact same ;)

For one example, my son took two AP level World History classes and my niece did the International Baccalaureate program. Total thread drift, but this explains the fierce fighting that goes on re school districts. Moving a district over can have a HUGE impact on the quality of the school and real estate values reflect that. Try and rezone someone from the "kids go to Costa Rica on field trips school and get in top colleges" school to "we don't have air conditioning" school you have a fight on your hands!

private schools or bog standard public?

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12 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

but we all want a cleaner and gardener.....

And we pay them $25-30 per hour.

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4 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

I did have a person pick up ex's shirts for ironing back in the day.:P

Well I wasn't going to be bloody Mrs. Preen 

Always did my own shirts.  Too important to leave to others.

Is there any other 'Mrs'  you decided not to do?

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Just now, astro said:

Always did my own shirts.  Too important to leave to others.

Is there any other 'Mrs'  you decided not to do?

Never was a Mrs anything.

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2 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Never was a Mrs anything.

but you were his Mrs.

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10 minutes ago, astro said:

but you were his Mrs.

No, Never took his name nor used the courtesy title Mrs. Why would I?

We only got married to get him a UK visa :D

hmmm actually it was Fabulon.

Ironing, the symbol of female oppression through the ages right up to Tony fucking Abbot..but we digress :)

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5 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

No, Never took his name nor used the courtesy title Mrs. Why would I?

Mine did.  No idea why you didn't. 

Maybe you did not want to 'submit' to him.

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4 minutes ago, astro said:

Mine did.  No idea why you didn't. 

Maybe you did not want to 'submit' to him.

Mostly . But why would I want to change my name from my paternal grandmothers name to his and end this tradition of daughters and sons bearing her name?

Both our kids use my Family name too. Really pissed his dad off :D

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Back in the day when I used to do the suit and tie thing for work, I ironed my own shirts.  Didn’t like how my wife did them.  Or maybe she messed it up on purpose.

Then there was my beloved Aunt Julia who ironed just about everything, including underwear!!

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2 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

but we all want a cleaner and gardener.....

 

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19 minutes ago, jerseyguy said:

Back in the day when I used to do the suit and tie thing for work, I ironed my own shirts.  Didn’t like how my wife did them.  Or maybe she messed it up on purpose.

Then there was my beloved Aunt Julia who ironed just about everything, including underwear!!

yes my aunty Shirley had three boys.

Used to iron their socks. (and sing excerpts from 7 brides for 7 brothers while she was doing it)

Tyranny. think about steam ironing boys socks for a minute.

Hmm We are actually on topic.

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3 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Hmm We are actually on topic.

Give it a minute or two. Wandering off into the woods will commence shortly

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On 10/9/2020 at 4:26 AM, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Keep in mind that Socrates was condemned to death by a majority vote.

Be careful what you ask for because you might get it...

FKT

 

AD396C3F-E39A-4803-87D2-41088E29027C.jpeg

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47 minutes ago, Sean said:

 

3A9D4BCE-79CC-4B2F-8E3B-EA0F43347CCA-1594-000001489515FD3C.jpg

Being There was great, read Cockpit to understand how twisted Jerzey was.  

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3 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

And we pay them $25-30 per hour.

No wonder you are broke!

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Other than pride of place, and honor is due there, is there anything about the Magna Carta that speaks to today? It reads to me like the Code of Hammurabi, better than what went before but deeply flawed.

* (10) If anyone who has borrowed a sum of money from Jews dies before the debt has been repaid, his heir shall pay no interest on the debt for so long as he remains under age, irrespective of whom he holds his lands. If such a debt falls into the hands of the Crown, it will take nothing except the principal sum specified in the bond.

This is not to say the big C isn't flawed because it is, deeply, although the 13th and 19th amendments went a long way towards improving it.

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10 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

We have a deep suspicion of Upper Class wankery and employing a Maid or butler is almost unheard of.

That must be a fairly recent thing.

When my wife traveled all over Oz in the 70's she got to know a family quite well. They were members of a club that always had an extra place set in the dining room in case the Queen dropped in unexpectedly.  :lol:

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8 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

private schools or bog standard public?

Standard Public

Property values tend to be higher where good schools are because it saves you forking out for private schools. You also have the factor that when enough kids in an area are in private school, the people with political power in that area no longer give a shit about the public school, vs. the good school area where these same people fiercely defend the schools.

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10 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Other than pride of place, and honor is due there, is there anything about the Magna Carta that speaks to today? It reads to me like the Code of Hammurabi, better than what went before but deeply flawed.

* (10) If anyone who has borrowed a sum of money from Jews dies before the debt has been repaid, his heir shall pay no interest on the debt for so long as he remains under age, irrespective of whom he holds his lands. If such a debt falls into the hands of the Crown, it will take nothing except the principal sum specified in the bond.

This is not to say the big C isn't flawed because it is, deeply, although the 13th and 19th amendments went a long way towards improving it.

It's about ideas. Which should be timeless.

 

And it was updated a couple of times....

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On 10/10/2020 at 2:52 PM, SloopJonB said:
On 10/10/2020 at 12:15 PM, Ease the sheet. said:

Did they ever teach the magna Carta in America?

They teach next to nothing that isn't American.

We covered it. But I went to private school.

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18 hours ago, Shortforbob said:
19 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

You know the USA is a big place and all the schools are not the exact same ;)

For one example, my son took two AP level World History classes and my niece did the International Baccalaureate program. Total thread drift, but this explains the fierce fighting that goes on re school districts. Moving a district over can have a HUGE impact on the quality of the school and real estate values reflect that. Try and rezone someone from the "kids go to Costa Rica on field trips school and get in top colleges" school to "we don't have air conditioning" school you have a fight on your hands!

private schools or bog standard public? 

There are some very, very good public schools in the U.S..

Part of the difficult is that schooling is about the most local thing we do, and it's largely funded by ad valorum property taxes. So a big chunk of the school budget is based on local property values. So if you have crap property values per capita (like most poor neighborhoods) your schools tend to be underfunded compared to the more affluent areas and therefore not as good.

Although there is some federal funding and standards tied to it, there is still a lot of local variation about how things are done. School boards are local by town or county (depending on the state you live in), and may have very different priorities and ideas about how things should be done.

The state I used to live in - Rhode Island - has a population of ~1 Million. That has 39 cities and towns, and 36 administrative school districts.  They were done at the city/town level, not the county (county was  largely meaningless political entity there). The town I lived in, Warwick, while it had a couple of small, affluent neighborhoods, was predominantly a blue collar, working class town. Our schools were...mediocre. Parental involvement in the schools was spotty; in the few dealings we had with the local schools we were surprised by how low the expectations for parents were.

My sister lives in Barrington, arguably the most affluent town in the state. Their schools are quite good, almost a college-prep style school system with a good budget and nice facilities. If you go to the state school grading system, you will see that the that Barrington rates 5 stars at all but one elementary school, whereas the Warwick schools all rate two or three stars. There's a reason I paid for private schools and my sister did not. Note also that if I'd lived in the next town over (the hailing port of my boat, East Greenwich), all the schools are 4s and 5s. That is literally the town I drove through to take my kids to their private school.

These towns are in the same state, one is right next to the other and the other is < 12Km as the seagull flies. Yet there is a wild disparity in the quality of schools.

image.thumb.png.e06459ae793b4cc660c0048a48c8a4ed.png

image.thumb.png.5532feb4df7be26981025932d25d6a91.png

We had the EXACT same sort of situation where I grew up in Ohio. I lived in an administrative district called "Symmes Township" which was generally considered part of the town of Loveland, Ohio. A couple of hundred meters from my house was the edge of "Symmes Township" where it turned into "Montgomery."

Montgomery was very affluent...Loveland was not. The kids in my neighborhood went to Loveland schools, but if you moved about eight houses down the road you went to Montgomery schools and got a MUCH better education. I'd visited both schools, Montgomery schools were way nicer (I went to the private school where my parents taught).

But when Americans with kids (present or planned) look at property one of THE driving questions is "how good are the schools." Because it has a pretty big effect on home and property values if the schools are good.

 

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4 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

But when Americans with kids (present or planned) look at property one of THE driving questions is "how good are the schools." Because it has a pretty big effect on home and property values if the schools are good.

 

This is why we live on Kent Island. I was surprised when visiting Snow Hill MD that they had lightning-fast internet and excellent schools. I was figuring more like "if I have 2 cows and one dies" type schools and dial-up internet at best, but Snow Hill is in commuting range of Wallops Island so they have literal rocket scientists on the school board and their kids in the schools.

It takes an enormous amount of doing to overcome uninvolved or unable to be involved parents.

Also note to Meli - I find people, even people from Australia, frequently do not get how big the USA is in more ways than square miles. For various reasons different areas of the USA are more like being in a different country or perhaps a different planet. 

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

 

Also note to Meli - I find people, even people from Australia, frequently do not get how big the USA is in more ways than square miles. For various reasons different areas of the USA are more like being in a different country or perhaps a different planet. 

I've actually said that many times. The USA is more like a cluster of 50 small principalities than one united nation.

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Hmmm, maybe this belongs here best - I am interested in what our local Ozzies might think of it. 

Thesis: Is it mere coincidence that all three countries where Rupert Murdoch media is a major presence 

(US, Oz, UK) all have large unhinged Reich-Wing populist movements? 

My main man Dr. Juan says "No!" 

https://www.juancole.com/2020/10/monopoly-arrogant-democracy.html

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1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

Hmmm, maybe this belongs here best - I am interested in what our local Ozzies might think of it. 

Thesis: Is it mere coincidence that all three countries where Rupert Murdoch media is a major presence 

(US, Oz, UK) all have large unhinged Reich-Wing populist movements? 

My main man Dr. Juan says "No!" 

https://www.juancole.com/2020/10/monopoly-arrogant-democracy.html

Once is random chance.

Twice is coincidence.

Three times is enemy action.

Al Capone

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5 hours ago, Shortforbob said:
8 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Also note to Meli - I find people, even people from Australia, frequently do not get how big the USA is in more ways than square miles. For various reasons different areas of the USA are more like being in a different country or perhaps a different planet. 

I've actually said that many times. The USA is more like a cluster of 50 small principalities than one united nation.

Hmm... most of them are not small in terms of geography, population, or economy. But yeah, it's a republic not a single political entity.

Manwhile, many of thoese states are not that different from each other, but some DEFINITELY are. The historic cultures and subcultures going to what is not the USA were very different, in some cases have outright oppositional views.

https://www.npr.org/2013/11/11/244527860/forget-the-50-states-u-s-is-really-11-nations-says-author

map-1-793x526.png

 

And many American subcultures have grown out of traditions handed from cultures/nations whose "home country" have not existed for over hundred years.

- DSK

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13 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Once is random chance.

Twice is coincidence.

Three times is enemy action.

Al Capone

Pretty sure that was Auric Goldfinger...

Though maybe Ian Fleming appropriated it from Mr. Capone.

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8 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Also note to Meli - I find people, even people from Australia, frequently do not get how big the USA is in more ways than square miles. For various reasons different areas of the USA are more like being in a different country or perhaps a different planet. 

Yes, Just look at Florida and CA.  A good analogy is CO and air travel.  I can get to Cancun for $150 RT.  Points east say the keys, would prob cost at least 2-3 times as much to fly to Miami..  Upstate NY(rochester) would probably be a bit more.  Bahamas, well forget it...  Not trying to prove which is further etc.  Trying to give you a real time fiscal example so you can maybe get the vastness of the US...  

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34 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Hmm... most of them are not small in terms of geography, population, or economy. But yeah, it's a republic not a single political entity.

Manwhile, many of thoese states are not that different from each other, but some DEFINITELY are. The historic cultures and subcultures going to what is not the USA were very different, in some cases have outright oppositional views.

https://www.npr.org/2013/11/11/244527860/forget-the-50-states-u-s-is-really-11-nations-says-author

map-1-793x526.png

 

And many American subcultures have grown out of traditions handed from cultures/nations whose "home country" have not existed for over hundred years.

- DSK

Good find. New England states had an interest in civil society and public education long before there was a USA and farther south the Appalachians were populated by Scotch-Irish that hated government and order even before they got here as semi-slaves and just got worse after they escaped and ran for the hills. I recall a memoir from an Union soldier in the Civil War that wondered at how bad *free poor whites* were treated and could not comprehend them fighting for 1%er slave lords.

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Nope.  This thread was perfect without me quoting anyone that shouldn't be quoted.. :lol:

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4 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Hmmm, maybe this belongs here best - I am interested in what our local Ozzies might think of it. 

Thesis: Is it mere coincidence that all three countries where Rupert Murdoch media is a major presence 

(US, Oz, UK) all have large unhinged Reich-Wing populist movements? 

My main man Dr. Juan says "No!" 

https://www.juancole.com/2020/10/monopoly-arrogant-democracy.html

Well, it is accepted academic practice to not state an assumption as a fact, so *first* you need to back up your statement that Australia (amongst others) has "large unhinged Reich-Wing populist movements". You could start with defining what you mean by 'large' in terms of either population percentage overall or voting percentage, and on what basis you classify people.

But - nobody here expects you to do that. You're far better at avoiding such questions than answering them. Which no doubt is why you were a 'political science' person rather than someone with decent numeracy skills.

WRT Murdoch I have no love for his business model and if his 'empire' were to be disassembled - fine with me.

FKT

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15 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

This is why we live on Kent Island. I was surprised when visiting Snow Hill MD that they had lightning-fast internet and excellent schools. I was figuring more like "if I have 2 cows and one dies" type schools and dial-up internet at best, but Snow Hill is in commuting range of Wallops Island so they have literal rocket scientists on the school board and their kids in the schools.

It takes an enormous amount of doing to overcome uninvolved or unable to be involved parents.

Also note to Meli - I find people, even people from Australia, frequently do not get how big the USA is in more ways than square miles. For various reasons different areas of the USA are more like being in a different country or perhaps a different planet. 

This.

Understanding the level of localness and almost village mentality is definitely difficult.

As an Australian, I am an Australian. Competition between states, local government areas, suburbs feels almost non existent.

My guess is things like reasonably consistent public schooling, public health and public standards across jurisdictions means we don't grow up with the need to distinguish between us and them

 

Maybe our approach to flag waving has a basis in this...

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4 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Well, it is accepted academic practice to not state an assumption as a fact, so *first* you need to back up your statement that Australia (amongst others) has "large unhinged Reich-Wing populist movements".

Well, you could read the source I provided that makes that case . . 

But that would require a scant amount of effort on your part, so 

not gonna happen. 

(And, Ahem, I thought you were going sailing? Trouble getting over/past the bar ?) 

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5 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Well, you could read the source I provided that makes that case . . 

But that would require a scant amount of effort on your part, so 

not gonna happen. 

(And, Ahem, I thought you were going sailing? Trouble getting over/past the bar ?) 

Haven't you figured out FKT's euphemisms yet? 

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

Haven't you figured out FKT's euphemisms yet? 

Went sailing Sunday & Monday, winds were going to shit Monday night so came home on the tide. At least 3 people took pix of us out there. Couple people on this forum can confirm that I've got an idiosyncratic boat and sail it. Steamer for one. The rest of you - pffft.

Back to playing in the workshop for a few days and then we'll go out again. Spring in Tasmania is its usual mix of fine sunny days amongst the crap. The good part is, not a lot of boats out there. We had our chosen anchorage to ourselves.

I actually did skim-read that article and it in fact had absolutely ZERO on point WRT percentage of hard Right Australians, so as per usual AJ is full of shit, and his references don't support his claims. Note that he's not willing to even give any sort of number or percentage to his claims, so people can draw their own conclusions from that.

As I said I've no love nor support for the Murdoch empire, I just like a few facts scattered in amongst the bullshit.

Oh and BTW Meli, I understand that your peak boating possession was a Laser or similar sized boat and you couldn't even manage that, let alone build one yourself.

FKT

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Ooooooooh Boat snob too! :rolleyes:

Are there no end to your insecurities?:console:

Actually it was very old  Mirror (Real stitch and glue deal) and I restored it all myself and change the rigging setup for single handling. :dance:

I loved my little blue boat with red sails but gave it to someone whom I hope is using it and loves it.

Of course I could handle it, On the Lake. getting it out of the racks at albert park was the problem not to mention the wind or lack of or erratic wind on the lake.

I actually don't like sailing boats. but I like working on them, and drawing them, and photographing them . Different.

 

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42 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Ooooooooh Boat snob too! :rolleyes:

Are there no end to your insecurities?:console:

Actually it was very old  Mirror (Real stitch and glue deal) and I restored it all myself and change the rigging setup for single handling. :dance:

I loved my little blue boat with red sails but gave it to someone whom I hope is using it and loves it.

Of course I could handle it, On the Lake. getting it out of the racks at albert park was the problem not to mention the wind or lack of or erratic wind on the lake.

I actually don't like sailing boats. but I like working on them, and drawing them, and photographing them . Different.

 

Feel free to come over here and work on my boat and take photos. We have endless bird life on the breakwater too. We even have libraries ;) The teak doesn't varnish itself, so bring some brushes and maybe a sander. Don't be slow about it either, we only have another month or so of varnishing weather.

image.thumb.png.2c05064e0fd2702b1e8339cdaa861c3d.png

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22 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Feel free to come over here and work on my boat and take photos. We have endless bird life on the breakwater too. We even have libraries ;) The teak doesn't varnish itself, so bring some brushes and maybe a sander. Don't be slow about it either, we only have another month or so of varnishing weather.

image.thumb.png.2c05064e0fd2702b1e8339cdaa861c3d.png

looks cold.

I want to work on one of these :D

 

The rudders are things of beauty.

 

DSCN1317.JPG

DSCN1313.JPGAnd when you get hot and sticky you just jump overboard :D

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20 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

It was about 80 F/27 C when I took that photo, that isn't hot for here but not exactly freezing either.

and the water temp? 

It was about 36C when I took that Photo. Little fishing harbor Astypalaia. Water even near the boats is crystal clear, 23C and theres a zacharoplastion right on the hard. :P

 

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even the baby ones are beautiful

DSCN1432.JPG

I should be there right now :(

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These may be a bit past repair. 

These are spanish but no idea what you call a boat with two round ends.

DSCN1058.JPG

DSCN1060.JPG

DSCN1061.JPG

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30 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

and the water temp? 

It was about 36C when I took that Photo. Little fishing harbor Astypalaia. Water even near the boats is crystal clear, 23C and theres a zacharoplastion right on the hard. :P

 

Water was probably about the same.

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6 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

These may be a bit past repair. 

These are spanish but no idea what you call a boat with two round ends.

DSCN1058.JPG

 

 

Looks like a coracle. NFI what they are called in Spain.

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This seems to be as handy a place as any to drop this. If things get this bad, it's going to be very ugly.

Quote

WASHINGTON — The 2020 presidential election could be so tight, and the result so hotly contested, that the losing party refuses to concede, triggering a chaotic free-for-all in which Congress, the courts, and, in the most extreme case, the military could determine the winner.

It may sound far-fetched, but the Constitution has major gaps when it comes to deciding a contested presidential race. The peaceful transition of power after an election has never rested so much on a rigid set of rules but on politicians being willing to admit they lost. President Donald Trump, however, has refused to commit to giving up the White House if former vice president Joe Biden wins.

Trump is also spouting wild, unsupported conspiracy theories about how the election is being rigged through mail-in ballots at a time when the failed response to the COVID-19 pandemic is driving tens of millions of people to vote by mail. And he is calling on his supporters to show up at polling locations, raising fears of voter intimidation.

So what happens if Trump claims he was robbed? Discussions with constitutional experts reveal how a single governor’s decision could spiral into each side blocking the other from seizing the White House. It’s a scenario made possible by the Constitution’s 12th Amendment.

“We have an advantage if we go back to Congress,” Trump told his supporters at a rally in late September in Pennsylvania. And he’s right. The 12th Amendment paves the way for the possibility that a minority of Republicans in the House of Representatives could give the presidency to Trump, even if Biden wins the popular vote and Electoral College.

Such a sequence of events would be historically unprecedented and might never come to pass. But if both sides are truly willing to fight for the White House, then wild scenarios — like states being stripped of their congressional delegations or election results from two years ago being challenged — are suddenly on the table.

Let’s say the election results are tight and made even murkier by days or weeks of counting and recounting mail-in ballots. If Biden wins, it will be because of victories in swing states with Republican-controlled state legislatures like Arizona, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. For simplicity’s sake, let’s say one single state makes up the margin of victory, and let’s say it’s Florida, for obvious reasons.

Trump could start spouting unproven theories or far-fetched conspiracies — like alleging China interfered to rig Florida for Biden with fake ballots. Or that Democrats voted multiple times. Or that election workers threw out his votes. Outraged Trump supporters would demand local Republicans do something. And they would have two main options.

 
“Things that seem implausible can suddenly be on the table in these hard-fought contests.”
 

The president is not elected by the popular vote — just because a candidate got the most votes doesn’t mean they’ve won — as Trump and George W. Bush have recently demonstrated. Instead, voters elect each state’s slate of electors, the people who cast the Electoral College votes that decide the presidency. Electors need to be certified by their state’s executive branch (by either the secretary of state or the governor, depending on the state. In Florida it’s the secretary of state.) Florida’s Republican secretary of state could declare the results fraudulent and refuse to certify the electors, blocking them from voting for Biden. Essentially, Florida would deny Biden the 270 Electoral College votes he needs to win by refusing to send in its results.

Alternatively, the Republican-controlled legislature could cite voter fraud, vote to recall the electors and then appoint its own group. Congress would then have to decide whether to count those electors. In either scenario, the question of who won the election lands in Congress’s lap.

“I don’t know how plausible it is. It seems like one of those things that would not be very likely, and yet Florida thought about it pretty seriously in the midst of the 2000 election dispute,” said Keith Whittington, professor of politics at Princeton University. “Things that seem implausible can suddenly be on the table in these hard-fought contests.”

There's more, and it's even more depressing. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/paulmcleod/2020-election-12th-amendment-electoral-college-nightmare

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2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Looks like a coracle. NFI what they are called in Spain.

I thought coracles were round and skin covered?

Maybe I should ask upstairs? :)

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

I thought coracles were round and skin covered?

Maybe I should ask upstairs? :)

ca0d5b317b9def24a9de3606c35abe37.png

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I always think of the Jumblies when I see one of those.

Edward Lear

They went to sea in a Sieve, they did,
   In a Sieve they went to sea:
In spite of all their friends could say,
On a winter’s morn, on a stormy day,
   In a Sieve they went to sea!
And when the Sieve turned round and round,
And every one cried, ‘You’ll all be drowned!’
They called aloud, ‘Our Sieve ain’t big,
But we don’t care a button! we don’t care a fig!
   In a Sieve we’ll go to sea!’

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16 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Ooooooooh Boat snob too! :rolleyes:

Are there no end to your insecurities?:console:

Actually it was very old  Mirror (Real stitch and glue deal) and I restored it all myself and change the rigging setup for single handling. :dance:

I loved my little blue boat with red sails but gave it to someone whom I hope is using it and loves it.

Of course I could handle it, On the Lake. getting it out of the racks at albert park was the problem not to mention the wind or lack of or erratic wind on the lake.

I actually don't like sailing boats. but I like working on them, and drawing them, and photographing them . Different.

 

its been rerigged to my tastes and is suffering from lockdown blues.

 

if i get affected by hope, i might regrease the trailers wheels this weekend......

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