Winston29

Can you buy an old/new sailboat without an MSO?

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Manufacturers Statement of Origin 

I'm looking at a 21 year old, polyethylene sailboat that was never sold by the dealer and sat on display (or in a shed) for years.  

It has never been registered and has no title.  It has never been in the water.  It was a static display at their shop, then sat in storage until I got wind of it (see what I did there?) :lol:

Here's the problem.  The dealer told me that I *might* be asked for a MSO at the DMV when I apply for the new title and registration, but he doesn't have it.  (I know, I know...  RUN AWAY).  The dealer is willing to file the paperwork, so perhaps he doesn't need the MSO himself.  I don't know how that works. 

Has anybody had to deal with this?  

If I file the paperwork myself, I stand to save a few hundred bucks, but if it's going to turn into an impasse at the DMV, it might be worth the extra cost to have the dealer handle it for me.  

Thoughts? 

 

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Any chance of the local State marine police inspecting it to make sure it’s not stolen? Of course it’s not, but that’s all they really care about. 
 

Often when I have a boat with no title or bill of sale from out of State(NJ here), they check it out and provide paperwork for DMV to process for title purposes. 
 

Not too long winded, I hope;)

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Do you even need to register it?  Depending on where you are, unpowered craft under a certain length may not need to be registered.  And really, who's going to pull over a polyethylene sailboat anyway?

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Polyethylene as in roto-molded.  Like a Hobie Getaway...

 

 

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Similar problem. A 20 year old Hunter 170, one of the plastic ones that cracked when left in freezing weather. Original owner got a new hull under warranty. Was supposed to get the same Hull Identification Number. Never carved into hull. The new hull cracked. Two owners later, both giving up on it. Builder bankrupt.

I got it for the price of the trailer. Repaired it. Named it Kraken and painted giant squid tenticals over the crack repairs. 

Now have applied to the state for a HIN. Still waiting

 

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Where are you? 

That matters a lot. 

If your state requires it to be registered then get a friend from another state that doesn't to make you a bill of sale and try taking that and a copy of that states regs showing that to your state and see what happens. 

 

You could also go the abandoned boat route.  Most states have some form of that.  Not a hard sell for a 21 year old boat. 

Also you could check with Maine...they seem to sell bogus registrations to out of staters for everything else,  may they do boats too. 

Just throwing some ideas out there. 

 

Been through this a few different says. 

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On 10/15/2020 at 11:17 AM, Sail4beer said:

Not too long winded, I hope;)
 

 

Not at all. 

I'm in California. 

I thought about telling the DMV the boat had been sitting in my yard so long, it fell off the system, but I'm not sure it's works that way, like it does for cars.  

The boat in question, and I was reluctant to divulge this for fear of ridicule, is a WindRider-16.  Thus the roto-molded hull. 

 

fullsizeoutput_101c.jpeg

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No ridicule should be given. Practical craft, especially for poking about bays and lakes, exploring. Everglades Challenge, 300 miles down the west Florida coast, has had some finish the race. Just saw one rigging up to sail on a Tennessee River lake.

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Bought my Ensign from a guy who had health issues that stopped him from using it. He got a Windrider and loves it.

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Yep - nothing wrong with em!  And being that you're in California get why you want to make sure it's registered - definitely some aggressive policing & tax collection there...

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You could call up somebody at the DMV and get their opinion. You may be making a big deal about nothing. Or Cali  sucks. If that’s the case get a Dremel and cut the number into the transom. Who would know? Who would care? 

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12 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Bought my Ensign from a guy who had health issues that stopped him from using it. He got a Windrider and loves it.

That's my reason for choosing the WR, too.  My 14.2 just wasn't a good fit with an old injury I suffer from.  

At first I was looking at the Hobie AI, but then I found the WR and knew it would work.  Comfortable seating, no hiking-out, and no more gymnastics while jumping about the cockpit.  They look to be fairly fast, too.  B)

I ride recumbent bicycles, so I'm used to funny looks.  So long as it gets me back on the water, doing something that I love, that's all that matters.  

 

From the California DMV website:   https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbook/vehicle-industry-registration-procedures-manual-2/miscellaneous-originals/manufacturers-certificate-statement-of-origin/

Unless a new vehicle is sold by a licensed California dealer and an Application for Registration of New Vehicle (REG 397) is submitted, all applications for original registration and/or title of new vehicles and motorcycles must include a Manufacturer’s Certificate/Statement of Origin (MCO/MSO).

 

The dealership in question is no longer a licensed WindRider dealer, but I don't imagine the DMV would have any way of knowing that.  

 

And yes..  I overthink things and worry too much.  It's a curse.  

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I wonder if you could contact the manufacturer and obtain a copy of the mso?

I bought a boat new from a dealer and the HIN on the title started out SBW instead of FEB as it appears on the transom. I had to convince the State of Delaware that the mso was incorrect after trying to title it in NJ. Turns out the dealer was lazy about importing and had the HIN start with the initials of his stupid boat dealership, St****s Boat Works instead of Fareast Boats. That was a long, drawn out process that Ultimately worked out in my favor and the boat was titled after providing a copy of the HIN and incorrect #s

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Based on experience you would be best off, IMO, to fake it through the DMV somehow. I'm in Santa Barbara and had to deal w/ the DMV years ago over a utility trailer I had on an apple farm I sold. The wife of the buyer had to dot all I's and cross all T's. The trailer was used primarily on the property for trash, prunings, weeds, some rotten fruit and manure. Took it to the dump about once a month and only went early in the morning to avoid traffic - 10 miles round trip. I didn't register the trailer, the people I bought it from didn't have registration for it and neither did the owner's before them. It was tool on a farm for probably 15 or 20 years and never a problem. Long story short, tracking down all the needed details and getting the right documentation put together and signed delayed the sale by almost 60 days.

Stupid bitch. She also pissed off every pool / spa sales and maintenance company in the area to the point where none of them would take her calls.

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any chance you could call it a homebuilt? 

but yeah, I think I'd call whoever ya have to register it with first and get their opinion. escalate it up the food chain a couple notches until you get the answer that works for you. 

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If I let the dealer handle the paperwork, it's going to cost me an additional $170 in taxes and fees vs. paying cash, lying about what I really paid for  it, and going it alone at the DMV.   

So $148 if I handle it myself, or $318 if I let the dealer handle it.  Personally, I'm leaning towards the latter so that if there's any complications, it's on their end and not mine.  It's not my fault they lost the paperwork, so I'd much rather they have to sort it out than I do.  

I know I'm overthinking it, I always do, but I'm thinking $170 is a small price to pay for peace of mind.  

 

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Write the check and call it a day 

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ayup. time is money.   this is probably cheaper in the long run.

 

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On 10/17/2020 at 6:42 PM, hdra said:

Yep - nothing wrong with em!  And being that you're in California get why you want to make sure it's registered - definitely some aggressive policing & tax collection there...

Only time I've been stopped by the US Coast Guard was in Newport Harbor, California, 1970. The CA numbers on my classic Moth were 2-inches instead of 3. There wasn't 3 inches of freeboard. Didn't matter. Only a $15 fine. In that state then even surf boards had to have numbers!

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Looks like I'll be letting the dealer handle it.  

I just called the DMV (again) to get a second opinion from another member of their staff, and sure enough, I get a different answer!  :(

This time the "technician" was adamant that I would need the MSO, even if the "new" boat in question was 20 years old. 

Always a good idea to talk to more than one person when dealing with the government.  

Their website is incredibly misleading.  :angry:

Unless a new vehicle is sold by a licensed California dealer and an Application for Registration of New Vehicle (REG 397) is submitted, all applications for original registration and/or title of new vehicles and motorcycles must include a Manufacturer’s Certificate/Statement of Origin (MCO/MSO).

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I spoke with a "Senior Technician" at the DMV this morning who told me what I would need to get the title in my name, without the MSO:

~ Bill of Sale

~ Statement of Facts, filled out in GREAT DETAIL by the seller/dealer, describing how they lost the paperwork but have had possession of the boat for the last 20 years.  

~ Pictures of the boat.  

It may also involve a CHP/State Police inspection

 

When I asked if it would be easier if I just told them the boat had been sitting on my property for the last 20 years and had no HIN or CF numbers, the tech said, "Yeah, that would be a lot easier".  :P  Probably a lot cheaper, too.  

Saving money is nice, but in this case I want to keep things legal in case there's an unforeseen complication, dispute, or contradiction of facts.

What a pain.  

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CA DMV is a horrible PITA!!! X1000

I have dealt with similar issues with a trailer. I don't even want to recall the details, but yes one technician says one thing the next one says exactly the opposite. 

Not sure if the easier route would be a lot cheaper. The only thing they have done well is to make sure that there is a way to collect numerous fees. I would not be surprised if you would end up paying 20 years worth of fees. 

I have lived in a few different states and regulations were always clear and sensical in other states. CA is a whole different story. Yes, there is information on the website, but it is incomplete and ambiguous. At this point I run anytime I encounter a vehicle or vessel without a title.

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21 hours ago, Winston29 said:

~ Bill of Sale

~ Statement of Facts, filled out in GREAT DETAIL by the seller/dealer, describing how they lost the paperwork but have had possession of the boat for the last 20 years.  

~ Pictures of the boat.  

It may also involve a CHP/State Police inspection

 

Basic approach to an age old problem!

You will have the State police inspection before you’re done and probably need a pencil rubbing of the HIN 

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On 10/17/2020 at 4:47 AM, Winston29 said:

Not at all. 

I'm in California. 

I thought about telling the DMV the boat had been sitting in my yard so long, it fell off the system, but I'm not sure it's works that way, like it does for cars.  

The boat in question, and I was reluctant to divulge this for fear of ridicule, is a WindRider-16.  Thus the roto-molded hull. 

 

fullsizeoutput_101c.jpeg

Out of curiosity (and somewhat tangential to the topic, I appreciate)... why is the DMV involved in this process at all?

I'm not seeing anything resembling a motor... nor can I think of any good reasons why the state should need to have a record of all the little boats it's inhabitants want to play with.

 Is this type of toy considered somehow dangerous? Do they also hold titles for every bicycle in the state?

You guys are weird... :-)

Cheers,

               W.

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Boats over 12’ in length are required to be titled and registered in most states. I have a few 11’ boats to avoid that hassle.

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38 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Out of curiosity (and somewhat tangential to the topic, I appreciate)... why is the DMV involved in this process at all?

I'm not seeing anything resembling a motor... nor can I think of any good reasons why the state should need to have a record of all the little boats it's inhabitants want to play with.

 Is this type of toy considered somehow dangerous? Do they also hold titles for every bicycle in the state?

You guys are weird... :-)

Cheers,

               W.

Its one of those cultural differences that just leave you scratching your head when moving from to the US from the UK.

The DMV is used because they have all the apparatus (and offices) to deal with paperwork, titles etc.  In Illinois this results in annual fees to the department of natural resources, which makes some sense on the basis of user pays. The fact that it varies by state gets confusing, fortunately Illinois gave up on trying to get SUP's kayaks etc registered in 2018, that was a bit ridiculous.

I suspect that there are many more would confuse the crap of our a typical American dealing with Scotland, you guys really are weird.

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Forgot that the MSO issue I had with my boat went through Delaware Department of Natural Rescources, not Delaware DMV.

They separate boats from motor vehicles.

 In NJ, every title I’ve had has been a difficult transfer of ownership 

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Some states are pretty easy on titles.  Colorado for one where my son lived and helped me with something similar to this when I bought a 28 footer there.  IIRC Colorado didn't require boat registration/title, just a hand written Bill of Sale and a nominal fisheries fee.  Trailer of course had to be titled and it already was.  The boat went in his name then some months later I bought it from him and moved it north.  No inspections, no title search just went to the Washington DMV and 10 minutes later it was in my name.  Nothing shady or illegal about it.  Maybe AZ or NV is the same if you have some connection there. 

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On 10/16/2020 at 9:18 PM, sailwriter said:

Similar problem. A 20 year old Hunter 170, one of the plastic ones that cracked when left in freezing weather. Original owner got a new hull under warranty. Was supposed to get the same Hull Identification Number. Never carved into hull. The new hull cracked. Two owners later, both giving up on it. Builder bankrupt.

I got it for the price of the trailer. Repaired it. Named it Kraken and painted giant squid tenticals over the crack repairs. 

Now have applied to the state for a HIN. Still waiting

 

The Kracken.  Perfect. 

 

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8 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Boats over 12’ in length are required to be titled and registered in most states. I have a few 11’ boats to avoid that hassle.

And then there are the cheeseheads. A sailboat 12’ or longer needs to be registered but boats under 16’ are not titled.

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Well, as it turns out you can buy an old/new sailboat without a MSO, the dealer just has to submit a "Statement of Facts" and handle the paperwork.  It's also possible that I could have handled it the same way myself, but given the three people I spoke with at the DMV each had a different answer for the MSO question, I decided not to risk it.  

Naturally, three days after I took possession of the boat, I found another one, locally, (that's very rare!) for less than 1/3 the cost of this one. :wacko:  And it was on a trailer!  Arg!  I had to build a custom trailer for mine, and I'm still perfecting it so the boat doesn't fall over when rigged. 

Oh well, all I can do is enjoy the one I have and not stress over the one I missed.  I knew there would be others.  I had just hoped they wouldn't turn up so soon.  :)

 

 

fullsizeoutput_1033.jpeg

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