Grande Mastere Dreade

Room to Tack question

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on our wed beer cans,  we usually just toss a single mark for the committee end and use a pier at the dock as a pin...  there are a number of docks perpendicular to the line running up the course side of the line..     so at a start, boats closer to the docks will have to tack to port as they will run out of room which makes the leeward boats call out for room to tack..      so does the leeward (hailing boat) after tacking to port have to avoid a windward boat still on starboard which may call out  YOU TACK in response to the hail ?    Rule 20 seems ambigous

20.2Responding(a)

After a boat hails, she shall give a hailed boat time to respond.

(b)A hailed boat shall respond even if the hail breaks rule 20.1.

(c)A hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her.  (who is avoiding who here?)

(d)When a hailed boat responds, the hailing boat shall tack as soon as possible.

(e)From the time a boat hails until she has tacked and avoided a hailed boat, rule 18.2 does not apply between them

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Not much ambiguity, if any. If you hail because you are about to run into an obstacle, the other boat has to get out of there by either tacking as well or ducking you. 

How much time is needed depends on the boat you sail (a laser tacking requires a lot less room and time than a 30 foot full keel boat). The intention here is that you do not provide a one second warning to a boat that needs 10 seconds to prepare for a tack, or more likely, you do not provide 5 seconds to a boat that needs about 15 seconds. 

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Sounds like a wicked start and you are starting on Stbd and will run out of room very quickly. if the docks were gone it would be shore or another pier?

Seems like the RC should put the Buoy skewed radically to favor Pier end where the RC is. The boat that nails it would have clear air and be bow out for the tack to Port.

A diagram is always good.

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You are right, in that, in plain English terms, there is an ambiguity in 20.2 (c) that I hadn't noticed before.

"A hailed boat shall respond by........giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her"

So it can be read as either the hailed boat or the hailing boat being obliged to avoid the other (with the only constant being that the hailed boat must allow room for the avoidance).

Paragraph (e) might suggest it is the hailing boat which needs to do the avoidance...

"From the time a boat hails until she has tacked and avoided a hailed boat..."

So in that clause the focus is very much on the hailing boat as the party doing the avoidance and one might argue this needs to be read back into clause (c) to establish its intention.

But the difference is fairly marginal in terms of outcome on the water. One way or another, the hailed boat has to allow the hailing boat room for it to tack and clear the hailed boat. I can really only see arguments arising where the hailed boat choses not to tack and instead does something which seeks to allow the hailing boat to complete its tack as long as one party or the other then takes some subsequent avoiding action; the issue then being who has the obligation to take the avoiding action. Seems a bit too fine an argument to get into in a beer can race. 

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13 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

Buoy skewed radically to favor Pier end

many boats fighting to be as close as possible to the pier!!! Sooner or later, there will be a broken boat and tears!

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      docks on the left,  so my question, does blue on port have to duck yellow on starboard if yellow decides to continue with a you tack  given he has kept clear of blue and given him room to make his tack

untitled.jpg

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Rule 20.2(c), Room to Tack at an Obstruction: Responding
When a boat is hailed for room to tack at an obstruction and replies “You tack,” and the hailing boat is then able to tack and avoid the hailed boat in a seamanlike way, the hailed boat has complied with rule 20.2(c).
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Rule 20.2(c), Room to Tack at an Obstruction: Responding
When a boat with right of way is required to give another boat room for a manoeuvre, right of way does not transfer to the boat entitled to room. When, in reply to her call for room to tack when approaching an obstruction, a boat is hailed “You tack”, and when she does so and is then able to tack again to keep clear in a seamanlike way, the other boat has given the room required.
 
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38 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

      docks on the left,  so my question, does blue on port have to duck yellow on starboard if yellow decides to continue with a you tack  given he has kept clear of blue and given him room to make his tack

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The dock is not an obstruction to yellow

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4 minutes ago, Gone Drinking said:

The dock is not an obstruction to yellow

Even if I, the dock  was an obstruction to yellow blue has enough room to tack and duck yellow. 

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Again, there is no ambiguity:

A hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her. 

There is only one subject in this sentence: "A hailed boat."

The hailed boat either tacks or is "giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her."

There is absolutely no ambiguity here! It is to the hailed boat to avoid the hailing boat and to avoid her (the hailing boat). If it would have said "giving the hailing boat room to tack so she can avoid" it would be a different story. But how the hell would that make sense?

Always remember: the RRS are meant to make sense and they are by and large common sense. So don't try to read something in there that beats the basic rules of grammar and logic. 

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I agree with @Brass It's room to tack not room to tack and then keep sailing. As long as the boat can complete its tack the hailed boat is fine to hold their course and force the hailing boat to tack or duck.

The one question I have is: Does this rule apply on the pre-start side? Are boats entitled to room pre-start or can you force them into irons?

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Rule 20 is a rule of Part 2.

The preamble to Part 2 states

The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing

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58 minutes ago, Gone Drinking said:

The dock is not an obstruction to yellow

I think it is,

its just an obstruction that yellow can fetch.

ref case 125 for an instance were boats are approaching an obstruction that they can pass without changing course.

 

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2 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

      docks on the left,  so my question, does blue on port have to duck yellow on starboard if yellow decides to continue with a you tack  given he has kept clear of blue and given him room to make his tack

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Well, after the tack yellow has the right of way. If that is the case then the yellow does not need to have "kept clear of blue and given him room to make his tack" because yellow cannot be both in the path of the tack of blue, and be in the path of blue after the tack. It is either one or the other. 

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3 hours ago, AnotherSailor said:

Again, there is no ambiguity:

A hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her. 

There is only one subject in this sentence: "A hailed boat."

The hailed boat either tacks or is "giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her."

There is absolutely no ambiguity here! It is to the hailed boat to avoid the hailing boat and to avoid her (the hailing boat). If it would have said "giving the hailing boat room to tack so she can avoid" it would be a different story. But how the hell would that make sense?

Always remember: the RRS are meant to make sense and they are by and large common sense. So don't try to read something in there that beats the basic rules of grammar and logic. 

While I agree with your overall conclusion, it is not sufficient to say the hailed boat is the only subject of the sentence to decide the matter; even though I'm assuming you are saying that the 'her' can then only relate to the hailed boat.

Indeed, the logical outcome of your statement is that, as the subject of the sentence, it is the hailed boat's obligation to do the avoiding. Not the conclusion you (or I) come to.

There is one of two less ambiguous statements that would summarize the possible outcomes (both with the hailed boat as the subject of the sentence).

Firstly, the hailed boat shall.......

  1. reply you tack; then
  2. give the hailing boat room to tack; and then
  3. avoid her

The alternative is the hailed boat shall

  1. reply you tack; then
  2. give the hailing boat enough room to tack and then avoid her

It is the latter we both seem to support.

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6 hours ago, Panoramix said:

many boats fighting to be as close as possible to the pier!!! Sooner or later, there will be a broken boat and tears!

Not if you are heading into a dead end.

Please show the area on a chart. You do have a camera or a scanner??

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Event #1  is “ I need water” port/starboard & windward/leeward are irrelevant. The onus is first on the boat that needs room to hail. Then it switches to the other boat. Once that whole event is worked out the rules reset.
 

Event #2 the port boat needs to keep clear of the starboard boat. 

You question is like I need room? The other guy says you tack except he doesn’t give you enough room to tack thereby causing a collision between you, him, the obstruction or all three. In that case he is at fault. 

What’s the worst damage so far?

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5 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Not if you are heading into a dead end.

Please show the area on a chart. You do have a camera or a scanner??

I don't know the area, I am not the OP!

Just pointing out that your solution is the ideal one to engineer a boat breaking clusterfuck.

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This is common in our river racing, the start line for instance has wooden quay headings both ends of the line.. (Mostly 20ft ish keel boats but anything from oppies to 45ft yachts could be out there)

It's all about judgement on whether the blue boat can drop under yellow in a Seaman like manner, if it's a huge swerve barely in control, then Yellow is a fault, if its a gentle drop of the nose, the Yellow will be OK,  IF the Blue boat has completed her tack.

And that is what the dispute would be in the protest, If blue hasn't completed her tack therefore she hasn't been given room, if she has completed her tack then it's port starboard. You need witnesses or better a video to prove this one..

 

The worst situation I've had in this, was about 35 years ago, admittedly in a fleet of dinghies, not keelboats. We had both ends of the fleet calling for room to tack off the bank, and the middle of the fleet calling for water round the buoy...

I came out of it well,  most of the fleet were so locked together,  they all went on past the buoy while sorting themselves out.   A couple of other slow boats and me swept round the buoy in comparative space, to be chased down later..

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15 hours ago, JohnMB said:

I think it is,

its just an obstruction that yellow can fetch.

ref case 125 for an instance were boats are approaching an obstruction that they can pass without changing course.

 

My bad - yes it is an obstruction to yellow.  But go read Cases 35 and 101, think they show a better example for this. 

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18 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

      docks on the left,  so my question, does blue on port have to duck yellow on starboard if yellow decides to continue with a you tack  given he has kept clear of blue and given him room to make his tack

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If Yellow replies "YOU tack" then they are now obligated to give Blue room to tack, in other words, to swing wide of her as she does so. It's a touchy situation because as Yellow tries to turn away from Blue, her stern swings closer and gives Blue less room initially.

It's a dance with some carefully timed steps!

FB- Doug

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8 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

If Yellow replies "YOU tack" then they are now obligated to give Blue room to tack, in other words, to swing wide of her as she does so. It's a touchy situation because as Yellow tries to turn away from Blue, her stern swings closer and gives Blue less room initially.

It's a dance with some carefully timed steps!

FB- Doug

Yellow needs to take that into consideration in deciding how to respond to Blue's hail. If Yellow doesn't think that Blue will be able to tack and either cross or duck in a safe and seamanlike manner then Yellow should respond by tacking immediately herself. But if Blue is able to keep clear by ducking, even if it's a really big duck, Yellow is fine responding "you tack" and carrying on.

And certainly in this scenario Blue's hail for room to tack shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

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1 hour ago, Gone Drinking said:

My bad - yes it is an obstruction to yellow.  But go read Cases 35 and 101, think they show a better example for this. 

Yes those cases are much better for the question at hand.

Sorry I have been in stupid arguments before about the definition of obstruction, the ref to case 125 was only related to that.

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1 hour ago, TJSoCal said:
1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

If Yellow replies "YOU tack" then they are now obligated to give Blue room to tack, in other words, to swing wide of her as she does so. It's a touchy situation because as Yellow tries to turn away from Blue, her stern swings closer and gives Blue less room initially.

...

Yellow needs to take that into consideration in deciding how to respond to Blue's hail. If Yellow doesn't think that Blue will be able to tack and either cross or duck in a safe and seamanlike manner then Yellow should respond by tacking immediately herself. But if Blue is able to keep clear by ducking, even if it's a really big duck, Yellow is fine responding "you tack" and carrying on.

And certainly in this scenario Blue's hail for room to tack shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

Agreed!

All the boats stacked up to windward need to keep good awareness of the navigation situation as it gets tighter. A boat need not anticipate another boat's maneuver BUT leeward boats do have right-of-way and they will need to tack.

Speaking of R-O-W in the above situation, remember everybody that Blue still has rights as leeward boat and can alter course to windward, all the way to head-to-wind, providing she gives room to Yellow to keep clear. It also should come as a surprise to anybody if she starts to pinch and then luff, before getting into a spot where she needs to tack urgently, and it may well be in her tactical interest to try and peel off Yellow before running out of water.

But she can't use a hail of 'Water!' or 'Room To Tack!' for that.

FB- Doug

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18 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Agreed!

All the boats stacked up to windward need to keep good awareness of the navigation situation as it gets tighter. A boat need not anticipate another boat's maneuver BUT leeward boats do have right-of-way and they will need to tack.

Speaking of R-O-W in the above situation, remember everybody that Blue still has rights as leeward boat and can alter course to windward, all the way to head-to-wind, providing she gives room to Yellow to keep clear. It also should come as a surprise to anybody if she starts to pinch and then luff, before getting into a spot where she needs to tack urgently, and it may well be in her tactical interest to try and peel off Yellow before running out of water.

But she can't use a hail of 'Water!' or 'Room To Tack!' for that.

FB- Doug

Agree with all that, but if I were on Blue I'd still start talking to Yellow early, along the lines of "Hey, I'm going to need to maneuver here in a little bit and you'll owe me room, what do you think you want to do?" So if Yellow hasn't thought about it already they can start figuring out how they want to respond when the hail for room to tack comes. As long as you don't hail "Room to Tack" until you're close to the obstruction I don't think you break 20.1(a). 

And recall that Yellow can't hail for room to tack unless/until she's close-hauled or above so if she's reaching toward the obstruction she has to head up first and, as you say, windward boat has to keep clear.

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On 10/16/2020 at 3:50 AM, Panoramix said:

I don't know the area, I am not the OP!

Just pointing out that your solution is the ideal one to engineer a boat breaking clusterfuck.

once you are out of room, you are out of room,  no options unless you like parking your boat on top of a dock..      the question is not about allowing the hailing boat room to tack , they have no choice...  the question is what are the obligations of the hailing boat after they tack when the hailed boat has decided they don't want to tack yet so they can end up on the windward side of the hailing boat...   

no body has crashed, run into an an obstruction, or had their feelings hurt...     

to me,  as the hailed boat who has given enough room for the hailing boat to tack and keep clear, that I do get to keep my rights as a starboard boat.. that's all..

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36 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

once you are out of room, you are out of room,  no options unless you like parking your boat on top of a dock..      the question is not about allowing the hailing boat room to tack , they have no choice...  the question is what are the obligations of the hailing boat after they tack when the hailed boat has decided they don't want to tack yet so they can end up on the windward side of the hailing boat...   

no body has crashed, run into an an obstruction, or had their feelings hurt...     

to me,  as the hailed boat who has given enough room for the hailing boat to tack and keep clear, that I do get to keep my rights as a starboard boat.. that's all..

I agree with that.

Ny comment was in reply to the idea of a start line voluntarily skewed toward a pier! If you do this everybody will battle to be as close as possible to the pier....

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Room To Tack!!!

safe_image.jpg.c5a35bc929ebf52e081a633ae3ec5c72.jpg

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5 minutes ago, The Q said:

Room To Tack!!!

safe_image.jpg.c5a35bc929ebf52e081a633ae3ec5c72.jpg

I can see why they're all sailing with their fenders out!

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The start of the 3 Rivers Race, 1st June 2019, at about 11:30, a Slow Cruiser class,  one of about 15 starts of different boats from 14ft to 45Ft . Luckily for that lot the tide is going out, so it didn't take that long for them to split up.

The three with the fenders out are almost certainly Hire craft, and and the hirers probably don't want the bill for damages. The rest are private owners, and probably don't have their down.

The Hire yard, daft enough to allow people to race their boats.. https://www.marthamboats.com/hire/yachts

The river is a 90 degree bend there, so the river stretches up to the right  of the camera, the start line this side is a few feet from the camera, but is heavily angled off to the right to give a long start line..

The worst Year I've watched, all 100 plus boats were within 200 yards of the camera.. 2019 about 70 boats did manage to complete the course, as the wind got up fairly well soon after.

The Three Rivers Race,  50 miles , 3 bridges to go under (twice), 24 hours to complete the course.. Tide at that point in the picture,  19 miles inland by river,  varies from about 3 mph out to 2 mph in.. Getting your choice of route for tide and wind is most important..

 

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A good example of the problem. Just after the start, boats coming off the wall pinned on it, made more complex by the fact a favourable tide runs along the wall and the smaller RS100's can tack more easily than the larger two man skiffs, making it hard for the larger boats to break through (even if they just want to sail away from the wall).

11 is about to tack, another 6 starters  (4 more Fifteens and 2 RS's) just out of camera about to join the fray.  

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There is no apparent reason from the photo why 11 couldn’t duck the stbd tackers other than a failure to prepare or look ahead.  other than ducking, her option is to tack, then immediately call for room to tack.  

Having said that, A lee bow or half bow tack under a stbd tacker into an obstruction is one of my favourite tactical manouvers.  Good for a 2 to 3 length advantage over the stbd tacker and will easily invert their positions on the race course.

stbd tackers should consider this before blindly calling it into a continuous obstruction and pissing the port tacker off.  The RS in this case might be tactically better off ducking the port boat and tacking closer to the wall in clear air.   but he probably won’t because...

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11 hours ago, Spoonie said:

There is no apparent reason from the photo why 11 couldn’t duck the stbd tackers other than a failure to prepare or look ahead.  other than ducking, her option is to tack, then immediately call for room to tack.  

Having said that, A lee bow or half bow tack under a stbd tacker into an obstruction is one of my favourite tactical manouvers.  Good for a 2 to 3 length advantage over the stbd tacker and will easily invert their positions on the race course.

stbd tackers should consider this before blindly calling it into a continuous obstruction and pissing the port tacker off.  The RS in this case might be tactically better off ducking the port boat and tacking closer to the wall in clear air.   but he probably won’t because...

True, although as a Sydneysider, I'm sure you know that you'll know sharply ducking another boat in a twin wire skiff isn't that easy. They tend to power up and accelerate rather abruptly and the crew has to be right on the ball, dumping main and getting it back on again with some precision.

There was no failure to prepare or look ahead. As was the situation covered in the start of this thread, this is just after the race start and the fleet is tightly bunched. 11 had only just tacked off the wall onto port a few moments before, well aware of the constraints she was under. But there are another seven boats out of shot and an overall tactical situation to consider.

The tide is running favourably and strongly along the wall, drawing everyone in there

Ducking 272 will put her in 06's bad wind.

A well executed double tack and call might just leave 11 able to throw 272 into, in turn, having to call 06 with 11 then in control, able to use its speed to sail through 272 and with the others not having room to execute a tack onto starboard.

Or it can all go wrong.:)

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On 11/26/2020 at 9:19 AM, Rambler said:

True, although as a Sydneysider, I'm sure you know that you'll know sharply ducking another boat in a twin wire skiff isn't that easy. They tend to power up and accelerate rather abruptly and the crew has to be right on the ball, dumping main and getting it back on again with some precision.

There was no failure to prepare or look ahead. As was the situation covered in the start of this thread, this is just after the race start and the fleet is tightly bunched. 11 had only just tacked off the wall onto port a few moments before, well aware of the constraints she was under. But there are another seven boats out of shot and an overall tactical situation to consider.

The tide is running favourably and strongly along the wall, drawing everyone in there

Ducking 272 will put her in 06's bad wind.

A well executed double tack and call might just leave 11 able to throw 272 into, in turn, having to call 06 with 11 then in control, able to use its speed to sail through 272 and with the others not having room to execute a tack onto starboard.

Or it can all go wrong.:)

Well... it'd be intriguing to know what 11 did.  With photos, perspective is everything.  11 looks like he's got no intention in ducking at that stage otherwise he'd be doing it by now.  It also with the boats out of shot, one would assume a port ducker in photo would cross ahead, but you can't tell from the photo alone.

I'd still suggest in this case, it's likely in the RS's advantage to waive the port tacker through.  Most people don't do that though.  Most people keep banging out the starboard calls whether it's in their interest to do so or not. *shrug*

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19 minutes ago, Spoonie said:

Well... it'd be intriguing to know what 11 did.  With photos, perspective is everything.  11 looks like he's got no intention in ducking at that stage otherwise he'd be doing it by now.  It also with the boats out of shot, one would assume a port ducker in photo would cross ahead, but you can't tell from the photo alone.

I'd still suggest in this case, it's likely in the RS's advantage to waive the port tacker through.  Most people don't do that though.  Most people keep banging out the starboard calls whether it's in their interest to do so or not. *shrug*

skipper of 11 is not even paying attention to the RS, probably figures to cross him and 06...   848's got some decisions to make..

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32 minutes ago, Spoonie said:

Well... it'd be intriguing to know what 11 did.  With photos, perspective is everything.  11 looks like he's got no intention in ducking at that stage otherwise he'd be doing it by now.  It also with the boats out of shot, one would assume a port ducker in photo would cross ahead, but you can't tell from the photo alone.

I'd still suggest in this case, it's likely in the RS's advantage to waive the port tacker through.  Most people don't do that though.  Most people keep banging out the starboard calls whether it's in their interest to do so or not. *shrug*

 

10 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

skipper of 11 is not even paying attention to the RS, probably figures to cross him and 06...   848's got some decisions to make..

The skipper of 11 was paying attention. What you see is a preparation for a tack.

Yes, angle and perspective are everything.

It tacked, called and tacked back. There was a bit more room than the photo shows.

On the next crossing the RS removed any doubt about it by in fact waving 11 through.

If I recall correctly 848 managed to go behind without much of a bear away. 11 decided the ground lost in a bear away (it was nearly able to cross 272) wasn't worth it.

Anyway, this was just meant to be an illustrative example of the problem raised in the OP.

The decisions have to be made on the spur of the moment and whether they were right or wrong can be reflected on endlessly.

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