CaptainAhab

Upwind Tasar/NS14

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When full powered up a Tasar or NS14 will plane upwind. Once you are going that fast you’ve got more grip than you need from the daggerboard. Do you raise it like on a reach? 

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Never tried, but will have a crack next time we are out for a play.

First thoughts are that you want every bit of lift you can get, and less wing means less lift.

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I would debate that they "Plane" upwind. They might surge, skip, scoot, but I don't think they plane upwind. But I'd say yes, when powered up you can reduce the side force by pulling the board up a bit.

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In the ideal world, which would be better: leave the board full length with a gybing board that you can reduce the AoA, or pull the board up shorter with a larger AoA?

FB- Doug

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It does plane in optimum conditions. Raising the board about 200mm moves the clr up and defacto increases the rm. With the boat sailed about 2 degrees lower, off it goes.

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There is a point at which the board is generating more lift (grip to prevent side slip) than is required. At that point it becomes drag. The lift Increases with the square of the speed of the water flow. Faster the boat moves the less board required. It’s obvious when you look at the size of skiffs or cat’s foils. 
 

Years ago I was watching a tuning video for C2 Byte. Excellent video for instructors learning to show sail shape. Ian Bruce(Byte, Laser rig) throws a little gem in the mix. He says that Kirby put an extra inch of length on the Laser daggerboard so it would point well in the light Canadian winds. That is why they point higher than most typical dinghy’s. He says you can pull it up an inch going upwind above design wind speed. You are fighting the rig to point slightly higher at a reduced speed. I have no idea if anyone ever does it. 

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12 hours ago, CaptainAhab said:

There is a point at which the board is generating more lift (grip to prevent side slip) than is required. At that point it becomes drag.

Pedantically that's not quite what's going on. The board is almost always capable of creating more lift than required. The more  lift that is required then the greater the angle of attack needed on the board, which we call leeway. Sailing the boat in a straight line involves choosing the optimum angle of attack on both centreboard and rudder, which fortunately happens quite automatically.  As far as board area is concerned the worst case is coming out of a tack. You need enough lift and low enough drag at low tack exit speed to be able to get back up to sailing speed ASAP.  Once you are up to speed it would be unlikely to have too little board area on a boat with decent foils. But with foil area there's another complex sets of tradeoffs going on. More angle of attack = more drag, but more wetted surface also = more drag, and lifted board = lower aspect ratio = more drag. A truly optimum foil would get exactly the right balance between all the drag factors, which will be different at every speed. For most of us file under too difficult!

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Do you want me to stay out ofthis or come in??

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Just now, JulianB said:

Do you want me to stay out ofthis or come in??

Please come in and educate us. This is my first season in the NS14. 

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Ok, firstly, NS14 rarely plane up wind.

Tasar can plane up wind.  Often.  (assuming you classify that via WS standard)

It all due to maths, very very simple really.

Both boat have a minimum hull weight of 64kgs (140lbs), NS14 sports a lighter mast but only by a few kgs.

Tasar has another approx 30+kgs of crew weight and that adds a significant amount of RM [Righting Moment)

LWL [Length Water Line] is the same, width is the same, CoE and CLR are ostensibly the same.

All up weight are 30-35kgs apart.

So NS14 can generate 100kgs (crew weight) x (1m (1/2 bean) + .3 (CoG of crew outside the gunwale))= 100 x 1.3 = 130kg/m RM

(the NS14 has now no minimum crew weight, it used to be 250lbs (113kgs) but it is now being sailed by much lighter crews (which is why the Nova/Tasar happened)

Tasar is 130kgs x (1m +300mm) = 169kgs/m RM.

So the NS14 has something like 25% less RM  (169/130=75%).

All up weight is say 64+15+10+100 = 189kgs (NS14) where as a Tasar is 30kgs more so say 220kgs so about 86%.

So the Tasar has 25% more grunt and weighs only 14% more, pretty simple maths.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Next bit, board height.

Assuming the sections are suitable, then it all about maximizing the CoL / CoD ratio.   By a suitable section I am saying laminar flow (lowest drag) and that then means an AoA of about 1.8-2d (yawl).

So if you have to much C'Board down you will then be running to low a yawl angle and the board will not be operating at max efficiency.

To little board down and you will be running to high a AOA/yawl and probably drop out of the bucket and definitely out side peak efficiency.

So board height is very important.

You also need to remember that a lot of the board is inside the case, so a 1" (25mm) extra in the water is infact quite a few % so Bruce Kirby is 100% correct.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last bit of maths.

The ability of a C'Board to generate lift is a x-sq law of speed.

So a Tasar doing 5knts displacement speed (Hull speed)  5(knts) sq-ed = 25

Then it jumps to planning up wind speed at say 6.5-7knts sq-ed = 42.25

So you need about 60% of the area to operate with the same efficiency.

But you need to remember it effective area (not actual) so lifting the board 50-60mm is about right.

Planing, the speed jumps to say 10knts, the actual amount of area you need is greatly reduced, the limit is how far you lift it under the vang.

 

                              jB

 

 

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Thanks for contributing to SA Julian. I always appreciate a guy who knows the math, yet can explain what it means. Very few people are able. 
 

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“Tasar can plane up wind.  Often.  (assuming you classify that via WS standard)”

Could you please elaborate on WS standard definition of upwind planing?

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I own a Tasar and sail here with the Seattle fleet(bit of talent in the fleet..). Try sailing upwind in 20 knots without significantly pulling your board up. You will feel like you are going backward.. 

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Superg,

Any course that is less than 90° TWA is upwind.

Lots of boat can plane beam/shy reaching and therefor technically are planning Up-Wind.   But their VMG will be appalling!

About 20 years ago, some passionate people within in the then ISAF (now WS) tried to define Hi-performance and it was words like "sails faster than the wind most of the time".

Along with that, they tried to define "planning up-wind" and at the end of the day, the whole lot got thrown in "the circular filing cabinet under the table" but the "planning up-wind" sort of worked and it was geared around VMG.

Take a Tasar, it’s TWA up-wind in displacement mode in low 40’s°, say 42°, 5 knts BS approx. so 5knts x cos 42° = 5 x 0.743 = 3.715 knts VMG.

That same Tasar, if it “heats up” 5° can transition to the plane, do the same sum, but the boat is now doing 6.5-7 knts so say 47° and 6.75knts so 6.75 x cos 47°= 4.6knts VMG.

So it’s pretty obviously beneficial to plane up-wind.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Need to stress this is “all other thing being equal” which they just about never are.

Tasar’s (in fact all 9ers) have very V-ed for-foots, great for carving upwind, slicing waves, etc.    (People need to subscribe to AYR’s.)

They have quite low squat rigs so low CoE and therefore highish SCP.

On the other hand

NS14’s are very U-ish, which is perfect displacement sailing particularly up-wind, bow dose not lift as much and forward sections are finer, especially when they did away with the dish rule. So they are geared to stay displacement which they do very very well.

Rig is more rectangular with higher “aspect ratio” so probably higher CoE, so lower SCP.

Both boat have over-rotating masts and in the case of the Tasar very small LE radius.

So both boat have very slippery rigs, low drag / high efficiency!

I was looking at a photo of Markutu which was NS14-3, 1963 circa, and along side it Takino NS14-2500 Circa 1972  (I was 14)  and the evolution that happened in those 9 years was historic.    Also, virtually all in Australia to go from #3 to #2500 in 9 years is an extraordinary example of growth of a class.

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The NS14 has many different hull shape designs. Do you think any of them have improved on the Tasar shape? The open transom and comfy tanks of this NS are a bonus. The biggest difference is the sailplan.Tasar(128ft2) is a lot more go than the NS(100ft2). Or did Frank get it right back in the day with the hull shape. 

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How long is a piece of string???

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6 hours ago, JulianB said:

How long is a piece of string???

Twice as long as half it's length

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I have sailed NS14s for 25 years, and the so called perfect crew weight has never varied much from around 125kg, very few NS14s sail at 100kg crew weights that I know of.

If the Tasar sails faster than an NS, why is the current VYC yardstick 108 for both boats? As some NS14 sailors say, the Tasar is a 50 year old NS14 design stuck in a 50 year time warp :) Considering that the NS14 only has 9.3 sq m of sail area and the Tasar has 11.6 sq m, I think that the fact that the NS14 is on a par with the Tasar is interesting.

Getting back to how much dagger board we use. I find that the limit is how much you can lift it, and hence why most NS14 dagger boards have the front top corner cut off to clear the vang. I suppose we can all agree that the faster you go the less board we need, that said running square in a strong wind with the board up can get hairy at times.

Sorry Julian, the NS14 class did not add 2500 boats in 9 years in the sixties, early seventies. They allowed a different numbering system in each state, which gave the impression that there were a lot more boats then actually existed, why they did that is a mystery to me. Each state was allocated numbers along the lines of 1 to 1000 for NSW, 1001 to 2000 for another (Vic?) etc. Hence why you can see old photos of NS14s in the 2000s, 3000s and 4000s. When NSW got to 999 they just ignored the state based numbering system and kept numbering the boats nationally from 1000. Currently the highest numbers are closing in on 2200, albeit very slowly as new boat registrations are way down. So my guess is that there have been about 2600 + - built over the years. I found this out when I was national measurer for the NS14s in the early 2000s and had all the registration forms for every NS14 up until then.

 

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Rainbow, no issue with what you have said.

And BTW, at no stage did I say the Tasar was faster than a NS14.

What I do know is Tasar sailors regularly opt for planning up wind.

The very good NS14 sailors that I know and interact with regularly have never mentioned it, so I have assumed it dose not happen often, if at all.

Loved my NS14 days, never denied that, not sure I like where they are going, but who am I to judge.

             Have a gopod day,    jB

 

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Thanks for the reply Julian, it's a pity the old 'Two of a Kind' regatta on Sydney Harbour which was run in the 70s isn't sailed anymore. The regatta was run off yardstick, and each class of boat sent their two top boats and crews for the event. Reading sailing magazines of the time the NS14 often won, but of cause it really depended on the weather conditions and courses as to which class would win. It would be interesting to see something like that again today.

By the way I stuffed up on the NS14 numbering system, what they did was to turn each number into a four digit one by adding the first digit of each state's postcode to the number, so if you had say boat number 700, in NSW it would have been 2700, or in Victoria it would have been 3700, so you just removed the first digit to know what the real number was, When NSW got to 2999 (999). they went onto 1000 and they dropped the state ID system. Bloody confusing was it not!

When I was class measurer it was fun reading all the old registration forms, it showed that the first self draining NS14 came out around 1965, and there was a narrow hulled boat that had racks in the 70s. Then along came the bumps issue in the 90s...

 

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I get my back up a little with all this.

Yes, NS14's where born in our living room in Northbridge in about 1961-2, yes we were stalwarts of the NS14 history, we are all life members of NSC, and we made a lot of NS14's.   From about 1965-1975 we did roughly 100 NS14/y.  About that again where built by others.    I remember Colin Thorn's mouldy, as one of those, but then in 1970(ish) my brother Mark won a huge Nationals in Canberra in the Medium Dribbly.   Ya got to remember I was 13.   Mark and Dad went right back to basic's, worked out what it was they were trying to achieve, they drew this all new shape which was a complete departure from the std, build 2 boats, one for John Diacopolous (who is still my lawyer) and the other for Mark and Carolyn (his then fiancée) and that was Medium Dribby.

We then built approx. 100 - 150 Medium Dribby’s per year, but there where always changes, mostly to the rigs but more than anything, some major departures to the hull shape.

Thinking back, I was quite possibly the catalyst for the Nova (pre-cursor to the Tasar) because Mum and Dad where a bit big for the NS14, so Dad and I started sailing and very likely Mum got “pissed off!”     And I do remember dieting (at 14-15) to make the then 250lbs (111kgs) minimum crew weight.   That weight limit no longer exists.

Peter Warner certainly sailed at a weight less than that, I occasional bump into Huge Tait, and the 100kg number has been bandied about often.    (both are multiple NS14 Nat Champions)

Peter sailed with me on AAMI when we won the 1991 worlds and broke the course record.

Anyway,

Most likely, as wives often do, Mum got her way and the Nova was born, so this was a NS14, with bigger sails, and it took off very fast.

Enter Ian Bruce who Dad meet at the 1972, but more fully at 1976 Montreal Olympics, Dad was part of the team, Mark was sailing FD’s, Ian was sailing Stars.

(Ian being the conceptual father of the Laser, Laser ii, all that stuff, he also lived in Montreal)

Most of the summer of 76-77, Ian lived in our house (the same Northbridge house) and the Nova became the Tasar.

Now, there are probably 3000 NS14’s in the World right now, and there are probably a few more Tasar’s.

The Tasar has brought Hi-Performance body swung 2 person sailing to the world.   

I think it is very fair to say that the NS14 was never placed to do that.

The list of Olympians who sail the Tasar out of Seattle is legendary.  25 year old Tasar’s win World championships, the Tasar worlds occasionaly hit 200 boat but are rarely ever under 100 regrdless of where they are held,  presently a huge entry list for the Japanese worlds is amassing.

Both boats do amazing jobs, but comments like “Dad abandoned the NS14” are juvenile.

He simply moved on, very likely while being prodded by Mum.     

Comment like “a 50 year old design” belittles the detailed refinements that happen when you have a large SMOD and the Tasar has brough this, what was unbelievably foreign sailing concept to a whole world of sailors that don’t reside in Australia.      Think momentraily about the comments of our Seattle friend, few posts back!

The NS14 class should embrace and lever off the development of the Tasar, because certainly it came from the thinking that happened right back in 1960 and latter in 1970 when Dad and Mark re-thought what it was that is important in boat design.   All the wind-tunnel work, (paddle pop masts) all the foil work, the brilliance that was Ian Bruce was mixed in and it has changed the world.

I then embraced that, fostered by Dad and Ian effectively became my 2nd father, but embelished by the time I had in NS14's along with Moths, and skiffs. All the Primes, the Entrad’s the AAMIs, the 49er’s the 29er, all of that ethos was fostered back in that same house by the ambiance that was thick in the air.

By getting their backs up in the air, as they do, every time this comes across the screen, the only class they are doing a dis-service to is the NS14.  

If that is what they want, so be it!    I doubt the NS14 will ever embrace or god forbid they lever off the development of the Tasar, the 9er's the B18's, it too far beneath them.

I have to add, I did laugh Rainbow, I picked my words very carefully, but knew I would get a bite.   And bite you did!!

I guess there are possibly another 10 of you just itching, right now to also bite.

Bite away, Dad's obvioulsy left us, and I have very thick skin, but maybe think more global.

                        jB

  My brother Mark, maybe 6-7 years ago, I need not comment on the name of the lane leading to Northbrigde Sailing Club  (where do you think NS came from)

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There is no doubt that the Medium Dribbly and later the Tasar was a break through design that came about from some amazing effort from Frank and all the others involved in its birth. I am not trying to belittle anyone involved in that amazing era.

I am very aware that the NS14 was born at the Northbridge Sailing Club and was called the Northbridge Senior for many years, before being called the NS14.

Because the NS was always a restricted development boat it was obvious that designs would change as the years progressed, why people moved away from the MD style is a part of the history of the class that I was not part of (in the late 60s I was sailing with my dad out of the old Hunters Hill Club on a 12 foot skiff). I got back into sailing in 1995 after a long lay off being involved in a land based sport. I know, the shame of it all...

There was an attempt to get the NS14 into NZ and the USA in the late 90s where a number of secondhand NS14s went, and later into a world market in Germany and the UK. The UK version being called the Icon, (a OD boat). Without a real mover and shaker such as Frank and Ian it failed to get a foothold in those places. It takes a lot of effort as you and others are only too aware of to get a boat accepted outside of its home country.

 

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90s was the beginning of the big die off of sailing in the US.

I have sailed with Both MG and NS 14. They are almost identical in speed to thr V15 but they have less sail

 Neat little boats.

 

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There are some subtle difficulties with an adult two hander with modern hull shapes. To my mind 14ft is really too small on a modern boat, because by the time you've drawn a decent fine entry what you have left is the same sort of volume as an old school twelve foot dinghy, which is two younger teens rather than two adults. 

So I think this forces you to go longer as Frank did with the 59er and to a slightly lesser extent the Icon. But length is speed, and so what you end up with is a much faster boat. Which is all very well, but a much faster boat brings in new handling challenges and other difficulties, and a bias towards steadier winds and larger water. And that reduces the market. Especially as in the UK at least the demand for higher performance boats seems way down on what it was.

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

There are some subtle difficulties with an adult two hander with modern hull shapes. To my mind 14ft is really too small on a modern boat, because by the time you've drawn a decent fine entry what you have left is the same sort of volume as an old school twelve foot dinghy, which is two younger teens rather than two adults. 

So I think this forces you to go longer as Frank did with the 59er and to a slightly lesser extent the Icon. But length is speed, and so what you end up with is a much faster boat. Which is all very well, but a much faster boat brings in new handling challenges and other difficulties, and a bias towards steadier winds and larger water. And that reduces the market. Especially as in the UK at least the demand for higher performance boats seems way down on what it was.

I love the Paul Bieker quote (paraphrased) “lots of what’s wrong with the International 14 could be fixed if it was 16’ long”

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I playef with the weights and drag stuff way too much when I was a teen. I came to that same realization. I also raced the GP14. They way I put it is simple: The GP14 is 293 lbs. The 505 is 280 all up except sails. So same weight withn a few pounds.
Now, sail the two. Haha.

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39 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

I playef with the weights and drag stuff way too much when I was a teen. I came to that same realization. I also raced the GP14. They way I put it is simple: The GP14 is 293 lbs. The 505 is 280 all up except sails. So same weight withn a few pounds.
Now, sail the two. Haha.

These days I14s weigh a whole lot less than then, and with the foils, give the 5o a run uphill and smash downhill.

Paul was talking more about handling characteristics IIRC.

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2 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

These days I14s weigh a whole lot less than then, and with the foils, give the 5o a run uphill and smash downhill.

Paul was talking more about handling characteristics IIRC.

GP will plane. But you KNOW it. 505 just transitions. In big wind the 505 is actually better mannered.

For lightweight comparoson--compare a modern 14 to a New Zealand 16 foot dinght (or whatever it is called).

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1 minute ago, fastyacht said:

GP will plane. But you KNOW it. 505 just transitions. In big wind the 505 is actually better mannered.

For lightweight comparoson--compare a modern 14 to a New Zealand 16 foot dinght (or whatever it is called).

5o's are definitely sweet sailing machines.

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It would be interesting to find a decent Medium Dribbly hull, or better still a new one built out of current materials, rig it with a carbon spar set, and a modern set of sails and see how it would perform against say a Tiger NS hull. Ain't going to happen though.

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I’ve owned an NS14, a Tasar, an Icon and an RS200.  Good and bad to all of them but love the pureness of the Aussie designs. 

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15 hours ago, Rainbow Spirit said:

... find a decent Medium Dribbly hull,... and see how it would perform against say a Tiger NS hull.

I don't think there's much doubt the modern NS shape would win more races given championship class crews. Much the same changes are visible in other development classes. Does that mean the modern NS shapes are better? Well you have to ask better for what?

The job of the development class designer is to deliver the fastest boat when in the hands of a championship class crew. 

The job of the designer of a new one design class, by contrast, is to sell boats, which in practice means design the craft that will be the most fun for as many folk as possible. 

 

What makes for a good development boat, often as they are partially type formed by measurement rules, is quite different to a clean sheet of paper. 

 

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