KiwiInLondon

Hanse 540e

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Hi,

Foes anyone have any thoughts or experience on the Hanse 540e? We recently looked at one in the U.K. and were impressed by the size and amount of boat you can get for your money

We are a family of 4 currently in the U.K. thinking about sailing to N.Z where I am originally from. We are not quite ready to leave the U.K. and would look to leave in the next year or so Covid and work dependent.

Before leaving the U.K. we would look to base her in the solent and sail her around there and further afield while further introducing the kids to sailing and getting our own confidence up. Maybe even eventually basing her in the Med while we decide on a time to sell up and go.

I am from more of a racing background, however I have cruised as a kid in NZ and the wife and I cruised the med for a bit it what seems a past life...without kids. Therefore, as a predominantly racing sailor i want a boat that has some performance characteristics about it so was quite attracted to this boat which looks to give me a little bit of a foot (however small) in that camp.

When we got to NZ we would ideally keep her in and around Auckland to cruise her in the Hauraki Gulf so the kids could experience some of the childhood I had there

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Hanse's seem to be a lot of boat for the money.  I've seen a few out in the world - mostly the Caribbean - so they do cross oceans.  Given the price point, I would be a bit nervous about build quality, but haven't heard any horror stories.  From a seaworthiness perspective don't love the huge freeboard and wide open spaces they seem to have both on deck and inside, but you could say that about pretty much any new production boat.  Seem to sail decently from when we've been next to them.

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I have a Hanse 430 and I really like the brand.  Build quality is very good for a production boat in my opinion.  I bought mine second hand in Malta and there is angood dealer there at Yachting Partners Malta.  Malta is pretty fantastic too.  

I encourage you to keep Hanse in your consideration.

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While the boat will probably get to NZ.., i doubt you would find many people who would say it's an ideal boat for the voyage you have planned.

It sounds like you don't have much experience with ocean sailing

While they do cross oceans.., the Hanse audience comprises people who want a live-aboard yacht that is capable of coastal cruising.., and want to get a lot of living space for the money.

there is a trade-off between features that make a boat a comfortable marina liveaboard boat, and the features that make a boat a good solid safe ocean going boat. Hanse yachts are more on the liveaboard end of the spectrum.

I've sailed a newish Hanse on the ocean - only a few hundred miles - but having sailed many thousands of miles on some great ocean sailing yachts.., the Hanse just was not a good boat for it.

People do sail them across oceans - it just wouldn't be my choice. I probably would not do the voyage you are contemplating on a Hanse

There are plenty of production boats that I would do it on - If you need 50ft plus, you would be looking at a second hand boat if you wanted to be in the price range of a Hanse - maybe you are looking at second hand anyway

A second hand X-Yachts X-50, for example, would be better suited for a voyage like that - I would certainly do the trip on a properly equipped and well maintained X-50

 

 

 

 

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Thanks us7070. You are right about me having coastal experience and not a lot of ocean experience. Hence why I am asking the question here.

The Hanse was the first ‘cruising’ boat we had looked at and were impressed by the living space available and comfort at anchor/marina factors but as we only saw it in the marina I have no idea how it will sail.

I will take a look at the x-50 and what is available. In your opinion what makes the x-50 such a good boat for such a journey

i understand some of the arguments I keep reading for a purpose built blue water cruiser with centre cockpit, full length skeg etc but these are not really for me for a few reasons. 1- I normally race yachts so want some performance from her. 2- for the budget and size we are looking the boat of that type would be pretty old. 3- we like a more modern interior. 
If budget was no problem we would be looking at a new oyster or amel but we don’t, quite literally, have that sort of cash floating around.
As you say there is a continuum from the blue water cruiser down to the 15yr old 30ft Bavaria that never leaves the marina. They will both probably get you there but the key is finding a boats at the right point on that continuum when taking into account safety, comfort budget and personal (and wife’s) preferenceA

 

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We have friends that sail a Hanse 530, they've sailed it back and forth across the atlantic, caribbean, east coast, med....  They like the boat and feel it's a good boat for blue water sailing.  I've not sailed on it so cannot comment myself but the owner is knowledgeable, a good sailor with plenty of miles, as well as a shipwright and racer.  Go sail one and decide.

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2 hours ago, KiwiInLondon said:

I will take a look at the x-50 and what is available. In your opinion what makes the x-50 such a good boat for such a journey

i only suggested it because it's a 50ft production boat that is built to a pretty high standard generally,..., and is probably in the same price range as a Hanse 540 - the 540 being a much newer boat

The X-50 more of a performance-oriented design than most cruisers would probably want.

X-50 is an older model - the newer X-Yachts XC 50 is a more of a heavy displacement cruising boat - not as performance oriented.., higher volume.., bigger tankage,.. but still retaining the high level of build quality that one wants in an offshore boat.

https://www.x-yachts.com/en/yachts/xc/xc-50/

it's a whole different budget level than the X-50

Problems i had with the Hanse I sailed: I thought the general build quality and the fit and finish was not great.., hardware was undersized for ocean sailing (winches, clutches, furler...), Below, there were inadequate handholds, inadequate fiddles, very slippery cabin sole, berths not great for sleeping at sea...

Things I would wonder about: how good is the keel attachment.., how robust is the steering - things like that

X-yachts has a a very well engineered  keel attachment - all their older boats, and the current cruising  designs have a large steel grid in the boat to which the keel attaches - it's not going to fall off. The current XP line uses a carbon grid

you can see it in this article

http://no-frills-sailing.com/top-notch-performance-cruisers-x-yachts-of-haderslev/

i looked at the hanse website but didn't see anything about the keel attachment sysetm

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7 hours ago, us7070 said:

People do sail them across oceans - it just wouldn't be my choice. I probably would not do the voyage you are contemplating on a Hanse

 

Does this apply to the Panama Canal route?

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13 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

Does this apply to the Panama Canal route?

I've done the atlantic part of that voyage three times - i know it reasonably well.

A Hanse,  if it were like the one i sailed.., would not be my choice - but I know they complete it successfully quite often, and i'm not aware of any unsuccessful attempts

So, I am not saying it would be unsafe - just that in my experience the boats have significant differences from boats that are designed and built with good ocean sailing characteristics as the the primary goal.

 

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16 minutes ago, us7070 said:

A Hanse,  if it were like the one i sailed.., would not be my choice - but I know they complete it successfully quite often, and i'm not aware of any unsuccessful attempts

The 52ft Hanse Dove II was abandoned on  21 December 2016 after a rudder failure on an Atlantic crossing, by James and Fran Coombes from Newquay: https://www.pbo.co.uk/news/family-appeal-find-yacht-abandoned-mid-atlantic-47627

 

 

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There is a discussion of the Dove II loss at https://www.myhanse.com/rudder-problems-on-atlantic-crossing-dove-ii_topic10072.html, where other owners report that faulty rudder construction was a systemic issue on pre-2010 Hanses.

One of the posts there is from another owner who also lost their Hanse in the same area, also due to a rudder failure: https://www.myhanse.com/rudder-problems-on-atlantic-crossing-dove-ii_topic10072_post87384.html#87384

The problem seems to be that in the 2006–10 era, Hanse was expanding rapidly and contracted out components to suppliers who then sub-contracted: https://www.myhanse.com/rudder-problems-on-atlantic-crossing-dove-ii_topic10072_post85444.html#85444

Other posts in that thread show a pattern of shoddy rudder construction, leading to delamination of the rudder.

Apparently Hanse later switched to buying at least some of its rudders direct from Jefa, whose products are highly-regarded.  But it's unclear whether Jefa was the sole supplier thereafter.  Personally, I wouldn't trust a builder who had a history of allowing such a critical component to be contracted out without proper quality control .. but YMMV.

Re-reading the OP's comments, I am reminded of the wise observations of Paulo, who writes the excellent blog at http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.com/.  In a recent post, Paolo noted how these mass-production boats are sold on their interiors, so that's where all the money goes (see e.g. http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.com/2020/05/beneteau-jeanneau-dufour-bavaria-hanse.html).  The OP is attracted to Hanse by the interior, so the logic seems to work commercially.

I get that this is not my boat ... but if it was me planning to sail my family across oceans, I'd be starting my search the other way round.  I'd begin by identifying which boats within my budget were solidly built, with a robust grid structure to support the keel, bulklheads solidly tabbed to the hull, oversized deck gear, and reputation for durability even when handled imperfectly (yes, groundings and crash gybes etc do happen).  Then out of that list,  I'd see start to compare size and interiors ... and I would be wary of the idea that a family of 4 needs a 54-footer or can handle it safely.  That's a lot of boat, and unless it's robustly set up for shorthanded ocean work (like an Amel), a family crew could easily be overwhelmed.

That would probably point me towards an older, smaller boat from a better builder.

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A search for Hanse 540e  on Yachtworld threw up boats in the €180k–€300k price range.  All from that 2006–10 era when Hanse was growing rapidly and sub-contracting widely, so that'd be a no-go for me for ocean crossings.

So I looked at what else that sort money could buy, from better builders.  There are some nice alternatives from the 2000–2010 era:

X-yachts: two X-50s at ~€250k, an X-46 at ~€185K, and three X-43s at ~€175K

Hallberg-Rassy: two HR-43s at ~€185K

Najad: Two 490s at ~€230K,  two 460s at ~€280K

Malo: a 45 at ~€250K, and a pair of 42s at ~€180K–€200K

Amel: a choice of Super Maramus at ~€200K~€280K

There were no Oysters from that era in this price range, but extending the search to include the 1990s threw up a wide choice. 

If it was my money, I'd probably go for the leftfield option of this Cigale 16. Alloy hull, water ballast, dinghy garage, magnificent saloon.  I suspect that in practice it would be  much faster across an ocean than a Hanse, and I would have much more confidence in its build

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15 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

A search for Hanse 540e  on Yachtworld threw up boats in the €180k–€300k price range.  All from that 2006–10 era when Hanse was growing rapidly and sub-contracting widely, so that'd be a no-go for me for ocean crossings.

So I looked at what else that sort money could buy, from better builders.  There are some nice alternatives from the 2000–2010 era:

X-yachts: two X-50s at ~€250k, an X-46 at ~€185K, and three X-43s at ~€175K

Hallberg-Rassy: two HR-43s at ~€185K

Najad: Two 490s at ~€230K,  two 460s at ~€280K

Malo: a 45 at ~€250K, and a pair of 42s at ~€180K–€200K

Amel: a choice of Super Maramus at ~€200K~€280K

There were no Oysters from that era in this price range, but extending the search to include the 1990s threw up a wide choice. 

If it was my money, I'd probably go for the leftfield option of this Cigale 16. Alloy hull, water ballast, dinghy garage, magnificent saloon.  I suspect that in practice it would be  much faster across an ocean than a Hanse, and I would have much more confidence in its build

I like the Cigale. Nice boat.

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16 hours ago, us7070 said:

I've done the atlantic part of that voyage three times - i know it reasonably well.

A Hanse,  if it were like the one i sailed.., would not be my choice - but I know they complete it successfully quite often, and i'm not aware of any unsuccessful attempts

So, I am not saying it would be unsafe - just that in my experience the boats have significant differences from boats that are designed and built with good ocean sailing characteristics as the the primary goal.

 

My dad has owned a Hanse 370 for nearly 15 years now, the boat has been sailed in sometimes harsh conditions, pushed hard well beyond its hull speed and we've never ever noticed structural issues. So I would trust it for an Atlantic or a Pacific crossing following Tradewinds  assuming it isn't done out of season but then nearly all production boats aren't suited to handle a winter low or a hurricane!!!

But then like @TwoLegged, if I had the choice between a cigale 16 (or even 14) and a Hanse, I would choose the Cigale. TBH for a family of 4, I would take the Cigale 14 as when things go pear shape you don't want to be on a boat that is to big to be manageable!

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Lots of Hanses' has sailed from Germany to NZ.  

And a bunch have circumnavigated.  

 

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1 hour ago, us7070 said:

isn't BJ's HR 53 in the price range of a Hanse 54e?

it's already in NZ...

BJ is asking €294 at today's exchange rates,  which is the very top end for a Hanse 540e.

Plus it's American-registered, which these days probably means massive hassle for anyone outside the USA.

And of course it's at the wrong end of the OP's planned voyage.

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

BJ is asking €294 at today's exchange rates,  which is the very top end for a Hanse 540e.

Plus it's American-registered, which these days probably means massive hassle for anyone outside the USA.

And of course it's at the wrong end of the OP's planned voyage.

And the OP can't get there to pick it up so it has to go to wherever is open at the time.

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13 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

And the OP can't get there to pick it up so it has to go to wherever is open at the time.

Think laterally, Ish.

All that BJ has to do is to sail his boat 12,000 miles round the horn non-stop to England, drop his asking price 40%, persuade the OP that he really does want a centre-cockpit furniture boat, and figure out how to stay alive as the UK implodes as hits the no-trade-deal-with-its-neighbours buffers.

Sorted ;) 

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3 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Think laterally, Ish.

All that BJ has to do is to sail his boat 12,000 miles round the horn non-stop to England, drop his asking price 40%, persuade the OP that he really does want a centre-cockpit furniture boat, and figure out how to stay alive as the UK implodes as hits the no-trade-deal-with-its-neighbours buffers.

Sorted ;) 

He obviously need someone with more experience in trans-global logistics. I suggest Rimas.

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54 ft is quite a handful for a family, but there have been others who managed. I think the problem of your 'brief' is in other aspects, mainly performance <> kids and volume <> long(est) distance. 

I can see why the 540e (and other Hanses or Dufours, Beneteaus etc.) are appealing. In my opinion, their natural habitat is the Med, preferably on a (cheap) mooring off Sardegna or sth.  But it is certainly possible to sail a 540e to NZ (via Panama). The question is: will it make you happy on the way? It's like being offered a big house with a vast, beautiful garden. You can easily see yourself there, under the apple tree, sipping on gin and juice on a hot summer day. Until you realize you've got to cut the grass again. And water the plants. And and and.

With space and sail area comes reward. But also work. And it grows exponentially.  Charter a boat in that size and find out, what gives you joy and what makes you work. Maybe even take it through two nights in a row on purpose, maybe even a somewhat tough patch, crossing over to France or so. That will give you a much better basis for your decision making.

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We just bought a 2016 Hanse 505 and do plan to do the various rallies like the ARC.  I do agree you get a lot of quality and value for the money, but surely its not a classic blue water boat.  There are lots circulating the globe, but, there probably better dedicated blue water cruisers.  We bought with open eyes to the trade-offs and were able to reconcile the reality.  The boat is still very new to us, but we have taken her out in 30kt+ breeze and 15' seas in our delivery and she handled it like a champ.  None of the weird groaning and creaking like the boat was going to pull itself apart.  We did setup sea births in the aft cabins which worked perfectly when we were off shore.  The aft-cabin births were split with lee clothes and that did the job.  I wouldn't try to sleep in the forward cabin in rough seas.

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Ya know people who bash Hanse based on one rudder failure, really perplex me.  If im not mistaken the rudders and steering system are supplied by Jeffa who supply the same to a number of builders including some very high end boats.  Its like blaming Ford if you got a flat tire.  But hey it makes you an internet expert.

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15 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

The boat is still very new to us, but we have taken her out in 30kt+ breeze and 15' seas in our delivery and she handled it like a champ.

I am not surprised. I know for a fact that her little and older sister the Hanse 370 is very stiff and shines in breezy conditions. Upwind she's got lot of power to cruising boat standards so it is a matter of finding the sweet spot balancing speed and comfort and on a reach or downwind she is very stable (ie accelerate in a straight line where you point the bow) so is happy under autopilot and if you get overpowered you can just bear away and take your time to depower. Despite the crappy cross seas you get in the English channel, I don't think that we've ever crash gybed in 15 years nor properly wiped out. Mainsail is powerful so you need to trim it properly (including reefing early enough) and then the boat is on rails. Judel and Vrolijk made it on my list of architects that can design safe, straightforward predictable boats.

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49 minutes ago, Dogscout said:

Ya know people who bash Hanse based on one rudder failure, really perplex me.  If im not mistaken the rudders and steering system are supplied by Jeffa who supply the same to a number of builders including some very high end boats.  Its like blaming Ford if you got a flat tire.  But hey it makes you an internet expert.

Did you not see this?

On 10/24/2020 at 5:30 PM, TwoLegged said:

There is a discussion of the Dove II loss at https://www.myhanse.com/rudder-problems-on-atlantic-crossing-dove-ii_topic10072.html, where other owners report that faulty rudder construction was a systemic issue on pre-2010 Hanses.

One of the posts there is from another owner who also lost their Hanse in the same area, also due to a rudder failure: https://www.myhanse.com/rudder-problems-on-atlantic-crossing-dove-ii_topic10072_post87384.html#87384

The problem seems to be that in the 2006–10 era, Hanse was expanding rapidly and contracted out components to suppliers who then sub-contracted: https://www.myhanse.com/rudder-problems-on-atlantic-crossing-dove-ii_topic10072_post85444.html#85444

Other posts in that thread show a pattern of shoddy rudder construction, leading to delamination of the rudder.

Apparently Hanse later switched to buying at least some of its rudders direct from Jefa, whose products are highly-regarded.  But it's unclear whether Jefa was the sole supplier thereafter.  Personally, I wouldn't trust a builder who had a history of allowing such a critical component to be contracted out without proper quality control .. but YMMV.

Re-reading the OP's comments, I am reminded of the wise observations of Paulo, who writes the excellent blog at http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.com/.  In a recent post, Paolo noted how these mass-production boats are sold on their interiors, so that's where all the money goes (see e.g. http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.com/2020/05/beneteau-jeanneau-dufour-bavaria-hanse.html).  The OP is attracted to Hanse by the interior, so the logic seems to work commercially.

I don't see bashing based on one rudder failure, I see a fairly nuanced critique with references of a particular era of Hanse's based on at least two rudder failures...

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On 10/24/2020 at 2:30 PM, TwoLegged said:

Re-reading the OP's comments, I am reminded of the wise observations of Paulo, who writes the excellent blog at http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.com/.  In a recent post, Paolo noted how these mass-production boats are sold on their interiors, so that's where all the money goes (see e.g. http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.com/2020/05/beneteau-jeanneau-dufour-bavaria-hanse.html).  The OP is attracted to Hanse by the interior, so the logic seems to work commercially.

The analysis done in that blog post at that link was very interesting.  My boat definitely has the balsa core in the hull laminate.  Foam would have been better, but balsa is better than single layer layup.  Interestingly, my old Morgan Nelson Marek 454 had a foam sandwich construction in 1984.

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57 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

The analysis done in that blog post at that link was very interesting.  My boat definitely has the balsa core in the hull laminate.  Foam would have been better, but balsa is better than single layer layup.  Interestingly, my old Morgan Nelson Marek 454 had a foam sandwich construction in 1984.

Yes, it is good, Maui.   English is not Paulo's first language, and sometimes that is very evident ... but if you can get past those language glitches, his blog at http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.com/ is one of the best resources on the contemporary new boat market and the changing European boat industry.  He clearly knows a lot about these boats and their deign and construction, and thinks hard about their strengths and weaknesses and suitability for various purposes.

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2 hours ago, hdra said:

I don't see bashing based on one rudder failure, I see a fairly nuanced critique with references of a particular era of Hanse's based on at least two rudder failures...

Thanks, Hdra.  I had been about to post something similar in reply to @Dogscout, but you beat me to it.

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As a Kiwi sailing in NZ I'd be comfortable with a Hanse of that size. Sounds like you will keep it for a while before any major offshore. They are well regarded in NZ as a good cruiser and there is a ready resale market. At a slightly different price point the large Jenneau Sun Odysseys also are popular. Some of the other brands mentioned would be regarded as an orphan back in NZ.

Personally if I could get into an X50 I would as they are a better sailing boat.

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Just buy it, all boats are an expensive and hard work pain in the ass on land, and in port, and a priceless joy at sea.  Just spend more time at sea, for a happy life.

Hanse are good boats, they very quickly found their performance cruiser niche, while all the other euro builders were still chasing trophies, and are better sea boats as a result.  

Have a look at the Hanse 470e too, still easily enough boat for 4/6 people, but saves some money for other fun things, and easier to find a parking spot.

The Epoxy range were usefully stiffer and lighter than standard polyester, so should last better, and be easier to repair and strengthen if required.  Like a poor mans XP.

No boat comes set up and equipped ready for a 12000 mile journey, I don't think this boat will be any more or less work and money to get ready than any other average larger white boat.  The process of getting a boat ready for offshore can be entertaining and educational.  

There is not a volume builder in existence that has never had some keel or rudder problem, but then most sailors have run aground too, nobody's perfect.  On balance, I would have an epoxy Hanse with Jeffa steering over most other euroboats, as a long term ownership proposition.  As always, be wary of ex charter boats in rocky or shallow regions.

What you could be looking at now is finding a VAT free one, or finding an example where VAT can be reclaimed, while it is all in flux, and paper exporting it to the channel islands, ready to export from Europe/UK.  Lots of UK owned boats stuck in Europe now, and vice versa, keenly for sale.  

Good luck.

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On 10/26/2020 at 4:36 AM, TwoLegged said:

Think laterally, Ish.

All that BJ has to do is to sail his boat 12,000 miles round the horn non-stop to England, drop his asking price 40%, persuade the OP that he really does want a centre-cockpit furniture boat, and figure out how to stay alive as the UK implodes as hits the no-trade-deal-with-its-neighbours buffers.

Sorted ;) 

Not just brexit.. but now we are onto the third plague letter of the alphabet... "C"  for Covid...

 

Not getting better. :(

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On 10/24/2020 at 8:15 PM, TwoLegged said:

A search for Hanse 540e  on Yachtworld threw up boats in the €180k–€300k price range.  All from that 2006–10 era when Hanse was growing rapidly and sub-contracting widely, so that'd be a no-go for me for ocean crossings.

So I looked at what else that sort money could buy, from better builders.  There are some nice alternatives from the 2000–2010 era:

X-yachts: two X-50s at ~€250k, an X-46 at ~€185K, and three X-43s at ~€175K

Hallberg-Rassy: two HR-43s at ~€185K

Najad: Two 490s at ~€230K,  two 460s at ~€280K

Malo: a 45 at ~€250K, and a pair of 42s at ~€180K–€200K

Amel: a choice of Super Maramus at ~€200K~€280K

There were no Oysters from that era in this price range, but extending the search to include the 1990s threw up a wide choice. 

If it was my money, I'd probably go for the leftfield option of this Cigale 16. Alloy hull, water ballast, dinghy garage, magnificent saloon.  I suspect that in practice it would be  much faster across an ocean than a Hanse, and I would have much more confidence in its build

Just saw this. Thanks for the link. An interesting boat at an attractive price. The layout below is intriguing with the dinette under the cockpit. Kind of a cool idea. The pictures of the stern and the rear facing ports in the dinette make me wonder about an actual dinghy garage though. Maybe room for a dinghy to sit on the swim platform though. Like I said, intriguing. (Wish I was in the market)

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I then get into a debate with myself as to if one of the aluminium centerboarders is more practical because of the shadow draft. The Cigale would cirtainly spank them when you were actually sailing.

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56 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Cigale 16.

No cockpit lockers at all no thanks.

69BA1E8F-71ED-4311-930D-897DA68334FE.thumb.jpeg.2cddddedaa847670bf86e1c3bec5a467.jpeg281AB25C-9FC8-475C-B28F-98605497D9A5.thumb.jpeg.f0a54f1da377c10f916169c400412bc3.jpeg

 

They are in the sugar scoop.

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That's the new Cigale, you get one locker in the bow for lines and fenders, two in the sugar scoop for toys and small spaces in the cockpit for small items you need while sailing the boat. Good enough for me! 

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Remember when boats had cockpit lockers the size of staterooms and you would have to climb down inside to get to the bottom of it to get that one thing you needed.  lol.  Or move 100lbs of sails to get your hose, mop and bucket out?  :D

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First of all I have to acknowledge that the days when I could see myself sailing a 50+ footer in a 30 kt blow offshore are well in my rear view mirror. But I’ve seen 30-40 in the open ocean and it’s frankly way more than I can imagine even a hale young couple with kids taking on. That said, some of the boats that have looked good to me for comfortable ocean passages would include:

Dehler 45. I have only seen one at a boat show but my reaction to it was somebody had put a secret recorder under the dinette table when I and my friends were sitting around sharing ideas about what we would like to see in our next boat. With that much thought put into fitting out, I bet it just has to be a well conceived boat.

Beneteau Idylle 51: Definitely not a racer but German Frers knew how to draw a pretty boat and I just like the no frills, no bowing to racer cruiser-IOR/IMS wannabe marketing design. Beneteaus of this era have the reputation of being built like brick shithouses. Trouble is a lot of these were charter boats so must be looked over carefully. They are hard to find.
 

Wauquiez Centurion 47: Also frequently used in charter and the one I saw had more teak up topside than I’d like. But that reservation aside,  I looked at one  during a wet winter four years ago when everything else I saw was a festering swamp of mildew, corroded hardware, water stained teak and wet bilges below and it was as dry as any boat I’d ever seen. Also loved the twin aft staterooms sharing a jack and jill head with a pair of single stacked bunks in one of them. Perfect flexibility for kids or guests. 
 

Pacific Seacraft Crealock 43: Probably not many on your side of the globe and a good bit smaller than your other choices but I loved Bill Crealock’s design philosophy that the major safety attribute of a cruising boat should be that it doesn’t beat the crew up to the point where fatigue begins to factor in. And they are surprisingly quick and fun to sail.
 

Just my contribution to the spend someone else’s money pastime. I will be interested to hear what you come up with. 

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15 minutes ago, kinardly said:

First of all I have to acknowledge that the days when I could see myself sailing a 50+ footer in a 30 kt blow offshore are well in my rear view mirror. But I’ve seen 30-40 in the open ocean and it’s frankly way more than I can imagine even a hale young couple with kids taking on. That said, some of the boats that have looked good to me for comfortable ocean passages would include:

Dehler 45. I have only seen one at a boat show but my reaction to it was somebody had put a secret recorder under the dinette table when I and my friends were sitting around sharing ideas about what we would like to see in our next boat. With that much thought put into fitting out, I bet it just has to be a well conceived boat.

Beneteau Idylle 51: Definitely not a racer but German Frers knew how to draw a pretty boat and I just like the no frills, no bowing to racer cruiser-IOR/IMS wannabe marketing design. Beneteaus of this era have the reputation of being built like brick shithouses. Trouble is a lot of these were charter boats so must be looked over carefully. They are hard to find.
 

Wauquiez Centurion 47: Also frequently used in charter and the one I saw had more teak up topside than I’d like. But that reservation aside,  I looked at one  during a wet winter four years ago when everything else I saw was a festering swamp of mildew, corroded hardware, water stained teak and wet bilges below and it was as dry as any boat I’d ever seen. Also loved the twin aft staterooms sharing a jack and jill head with a pair of single stacked bunks in one of them. Perfect flexibility for kids or guests. 
 

Pacific Seacraft Crealock 43: Probably not many on your side of the globe and a good bit smaller than your other choices but I loved Bill Crealock’s design philosophy that the major safety attribute of a cruising boat should be that it doesn’t beat the crew up to the point where fatigue begins to factor in. And they are surprisingly quick and fun to sail.
 

Just my contribution to the spend someone else’s money pastime. I will be interested to hear what you come up with. 

I have been offshore in a Pacific Seacraft 44 in 55+ knots and it was solid as a rock. Very well built boats.

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On 11/8/2020 at 11:20 PM, kinardly said:

Dehler 45. I have only seen one at a boat show but my reaction to it was somebody had put a secret recorder under the dinette table when I and my friends were sitting around sharing ideas about what we would like to see in our next boat. With that much thought put into fitting out, I bet it just has to be a well conceived boat.

As far as i can see, it comes only with various flavours of torpedo keel.  For me, that weed-, line- and net-trap rules it out as a coastal cruiser.

 

On 11/8/2020 at 11:37 PM, Ishmael said:

Wauquiez Centurion 47: Also frequently used in charter and the one I saw had more teak up topside than I’d like. But that reservation aside,  I looked at one  during a wet winter four years ago when everything else I saw was a festering swamp of mildew, corroded hardware, water stained teak and wet bilges below and it was as dry as any boat I’d ever seen. Also loved the twin aft staterooms sharing a jack and jill head with a pair of single stacked bunks in one of them. Perfect flexibility for kids or guests. 

Excellent build quality, but a very IOR-ish hull and rig.  Pinched ends and huge overlapping headsails are not a god recipe for cruising

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15 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:
On 11/8/2020 at 3:37 PM, Ishmael said:

Wauquiez Centurion 47: Also frequently used in charter and the one I saw had more teak up topside than I’d like. But that reservation aside,  I looked at one  during a wet winter four years ago when everything else I saw was a festering swamp of mildew, corroded hardware, water stained teak and wet bilges below and it was as dry as any boat I’d ever seen. Also loved the twin aft staterooms sharing a jack and jill head with a pair of single stacked bunks in one of them. Perfect flexibility for kids or guests. 

Excellent build quality, but a very IOR-ish hull and rig.  Pinched ends and huge overlapping headsails are not a god recipe for cruising 

Not my words, it's an forum glitch on quotes. I wouldn't turn one down if it was given to me.

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13 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

 

Excellent build quality, but a very IOR-ish hull and rig.  Pinched ends and huge overlapping headsails are not a god recipe for cruising

ISTR that the Centurion of this era were not as IOR-ish as they seem. The rear might be pointy but I think that the rear third was quite flat underneath. Never sailed one but apparently they keep plodding along at 7-8 knots in most circumstances without too much effort. Nevertheless I agree on the overlapping sails.

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22 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Not my words, it's an forum glitch on quotes. I wouldn't turn one down if it was given to me.

Sorry about that, Ish.  Both quotes were from the same post by Kinardly.  I have no idea why the software decided to misattribute the second one to you.

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LOL, that was probably my famous ability to make electronic devices go stupid with only my presence. For the record, the Centurion 47 I visited had electric primary winches or I agree, the headsails would require a bit more athleticism than a husband and wife team would want to muster when out of sight of land.

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I have sailed a 2007 hanse 430e from St Martin to NZ in 2013. As a delivery skipper I also have just under 200,000 miles of ocean sailing under my belt.

Firstly, all the production boats are not designed as ocean cruising boats. They are all designed for light cruising for a short time in sheltered waters with lots of people - a summer holiday cruise.

As such, that means they are not sturdy enough, don't have enough storage, have too many beds, none of which work at sea, etc, just like the Beneteaus, Dealers, Bavaria et al. 

The build quality of that particular Hanse was not good at all. There were problems with the main bulkhead attachment, mast step, hull-deck join and more. All of it was fixed before the trip, and some other small faults showed up, just like any other boat. 

The trip itself is not too bad weather wise, and most boats should be able to do it. The hardest part is the last leg into NZ, although I have been blessed with many good passages in that leg. When I am sailing a production boat I definitely back off alot earlier than with a more purpose built cruising machine, and it's good to remember what these vessels were designed for.

The big advantage of these boats is the price, and just like anything else you will get what you pay for. Having said that I think it's perfectly feasible for a family to sail a 54ft boat unassisted. Frankly, except for watch keeping and docking the boat is easily sailed one up, especially if the autopilot is good and some forward planning is employed. The Hanse in general is quick-ish and with a massive rudder, they stay in control under autopilot. We had a fair few days over 200 nm with the best at 226nm, all of which were enjoyable & stress free. In general they are easily driven so it pays to keep the sail area (& the stress) down.

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On 11/20/2020 at 9:46 AM, kiwin said:

I have sailed a 2007 hanse 430e from St Martin to NZ in 2013. As a delivery skipper I also have just under 200,000 miles of ocean sailing under my belt.

Firstly, all the production boats are not designed as ocean cruising boats. They are all designed for light cruising for a short time in sheltered waters with lots of people - a summer holiday cruise.

As such, that means they are not sturdy enough, don't have enough storage, have too many beds, none of which work at sea, etc, just like the Beneteaus, Dealers, Bavaria et al. 

The build quality of that particular Hanse was not good at all. There were problems with the main bulkhead attachment, mast step, hull-deck join and more. All of it was fixed before the trip, and some other small faults showed up, just like any other boat. 

The trip itself is not too bad weather wise, and most boats should be able to do it. The hardest part is the last leg into NZ, although I have been blessed with many good passages in that leg. When I am sailing a production boat I definitely back off alot earlier than with a more purpose built cruising machine, and it's good to remember what these vessels were designed for.

The big advantage of these boats is the price, and just like anything else you will get what you pay for. Having said that I think it's perfectly feasible for a family to sail a 54ft boat unassisted. Frankly, except for watch keeping and docking the boat is easily sailed one up, especially if the autopilot is good and some forward planning is employed. The Hanse in general is quick-ish and with a massive rudder, they stay in control under autopilot. We had a fair few days over 200 nm with the best at 226nm, all of which were enjoyable & stress free. In general they are easily driven so it pays to keep the sail area (& the stress) down.

Crikey you had better give these guys a heads up before they meet up with Davey Jones.

 

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My understanding from friends is that the build quality has improved a little since 2007 when that 430 was built. In that boat the main bulkhead was not attached, or even remotely close to the deck. In addition it had cracked at the bottom corner of the forecabin door and was not adequately tabbed on to the hull in other places. The rig compression had caused the deck to collapse, with water ingress to the sandwich. The sealer used in the hull deck join had dried out and fallen out in much of the join. The steering was jefa and of a good standard, with the exception that the autopilot gear had inadequate wrap contact, causing tooth jumping. The chain was replaced with an idler added to increase the contact.

The electrical system was poor and all the hatches were installed without adequate sealer causing many leaks.

I should note that all these production boats have issues. I have never delivered a Beneteau without steering/rudder issues of some sort, and many of them have hull/deck joint issues. Bavaria's are a similar story. The X-yachts are definitely a step up, as are others such as Moody but they all have some problems. 

A real cruising boat is very hard to find and cost much more. One option is to find something older. My personal choice would be a sundeer 56 or an Adams 54. They are both long narrow lower volume boats that are smaller by some way than the Hanse, but are actually designed and built for the ocean. They are fast, well balanced, easy to sail vessels that should commonly exceed 200 miles/day and are as bulletproof as possible regarding bad weather. The speed is safety. These boats have the ability to climb off a lee shore in adverse conditions and on passage the speed gives safer choices. The passage from Tonga or Fiji to NZ is for most boats around 10 days. On a Sundeer or Adams it is probably 5. It is much easier to find a good 5 day weather window for that trip than 10, and the forecasting is quite reliable for only the first 4-5 days.

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