Some light reading - NEJM on CV-19

[Movable Ballast 156]

I don't claim to be any expert on this but thought this group of articles was interesting. No bias just data...

https://www.nejm.org/coronavirus?query=main_nav_lg&fbclid=IwAR1Whnhl-y1-3vggsUJiJnVqPtBYb9nGXJtnoRpFgOBLGFTiPR_aarCknUk

 

[Amati 1,257]

26 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

I don't claim to be any expert on this but thought this group of articles was interesting. No bias just data...

https://www.nejm.org/coronavirus?query=main_nav_lg&fbclid=IwAR1Whnhl-y1-3vggsUJiJnVqPtBYb9nGXJtnoRpFgOBLGFTiPR_aarCknUk

 

Part of the problem is it took NEJM how long to even write an editorial, and STILL, most folks don’t even know what different types of masks do.

[Movable Ballast 156]

1 minute ago, Amati said:

Part of the problem is it took NEJM how long to even write an editorial, and STILL, most folks don’t even know what different types of masks do.

Well true, they usually do take the time to gather and collate data in a credible manner before they shoot their mouths off. 

I'm absolutely sure that masks help in most situations but they are not the long term solution. 

[Amati 1,257]

24 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

Well true, they usually do take the time to gather and collate data in a credible manner before they shoot their mouths off. 

I'm absolutely sure that masks help in most situations but they are not the long term solution. 

The attitude of Trump was obvious from Washington State and on, nothing has changed.  And because of the momentum of that, masks will have to be part of the long term solution in the USA- too many willfully unmasked, and among the masked, too little appreciation of what an effective mask might be in our fucked up situation, and no mask standards Or availability outside of the medical community.  For God’s sake, many countries are making masks available in vending machines that meet useful epidemiological & quality criteria, while here in the good old greedy states it’s still fucking buyer beware, for example, people wearing fucking bandanas, which actually split up the juices in a cough, sneeze, or breath, breaking larger droplets to smaller droplets, which carry farther, and are more easily sucked into other lungs. And no matter how many times guys who actually might count might say it, like Vin Gupta, it seems like talking to a wall.  

[Movable Ballast 156]

Just now, Amati said:

The attitude of Trump was obvious from Washington State on, nothing has changed.  And because of the momentum of that, masks will have to be part of the long term solution in the USA- too many willfully unmasked, and among the masked, too little appreciation of what an effective mask might be in our fucked up situation, and no mask standards Or availability outside of the medical community.  For God’s sake, many countries are making masks available in vending machines that meet useful epidemiological criteria, while here in the states it’s still fucking buyer beware, for example, people wearing fucking bandanas, which actually split up the juices in a cough, sneeze, or breath, breaking larger droplets to smaller droplets, which carry farther, and are more easily sucked into other lungs. And no matter how many times guys who actually might count might say it, like Vin Gupta, it seems like talking to a wall.  

Where did I make this about Trump? 

I was just disseminating information... In fact I made it clear that I have no bias here.

What's wrong with you people...  

[Amati 1,257]

7 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

Where did I make this about Trump? 

I was just disseminating information... In fact I made it clear that I have no bias here.

What's wrong with you people...  

I must have misunderstood- you did post “I’m absolutely sure masks help in most situations but they are not the long term solution.”  I didn’t see that in the NEJM linky.  I saw that as a conclusion on your part.  

Just out of curiosity, what did you mean by the word “mask”? 
 

and I’ll post this AGAIN (Like I have since March) because like I said above, it never seems to make a fucking dent.  There’s testing results! 
 

https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-diy-coronavirus-homemade-mask-material-covid/

 

 

[Movable Ballast 156]

1 minute ago, Amati said:

I must have misunderstood- you did post “I’m absolutely sure masks help in most situations but they are not the long term solution.”  I didn’t see that in the NEJM linky.  I saw that as a conclusion on your part.  

Just out of curiosity, what did you mean by the word “mask”? 

 

 

I'm in the office every day, we have a mandatory mask use rule in mixed use space. I follow it completely.

My mask is a double layer nose and mouth cover that attaches to the ears.  

[Amati 1,257]

1 minute ago, Movable Ballast said:

I'm in the office every day, we have a mandatory mask use rule in mixed use space. I follow it completely.

My mask is a double layer nose and mouth cover that attaches to the ears.  

What material is it made of? How does it fit?  Can you sterilize it?  Do you know how?  See post #6 above for testing results of different materials -

[Movable Ballast 156]

1 minute ago, Amati said:

What material is it made of? How does it fit?  Can you sterilize it?  Do you know how?  See post #6 above for testing results of different materials -

It's made of Cotton, I wash it. 

What's your point? 

[Amati 1,257]

15 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

It's made of Cotton, I wash it. 

What's your point? 

If you’ll look at testing results of different cotton materials (above, in post #6) you’ll see there are different results for different materials (and differing # of layers, in some cases), using n 95’s and surgical masks as a reference point.  I figure the more you know, the better off you’ll be, as far as the risks you’re taking.

[Movable Ballast 156]

3 minutes ago, Amati said:

If you’ll look at testing results of different cotton materials (above, in post #6) you’ll see there are different results for different materials, using n 95’s and surgical masks as a reference point.  I figure the more you know, the better off you’ll be, as far as the risks you’re taking.

OK, thanks. It would have been so much easier to just say that... 

I'm OK with my level of risk and absolutely respect each individual's level of comfort from not leaving the house to selective mask use of their choice. 

 

[12 metre 291]

What I can't figure out is why there still appears to be a shortage of N95 respirators.  I understand it would be costly to set up additional production - but surely it could be done.

Come to think of it, I thought the US invoked the DPA just for this.  So what has happened?

If the governments were able to hand out free N95s in sufficient quantity for a month or two rather than showering people with cash, this virus could probably be done and dusted in fairly short order.  This assumes of course (perhaps erroneously) that everyone would wear them if provided.

[Amati 1,257]

9 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

What I can't figure out is why there still appears to be a shortage of N95 respirators.  I understand it would be costly to set up additional production - but surely it could be done.

Come to think of it, I thought the US invoked the DPA just for this.  So what has happened?

If the governments were able to hand out free N95s in sufficient quantity for a month or two rather than showering people with cash, this virus could probably be done and dusted in fairly short order.  This assumes of course (perhaps erroneously) that everyone would wear them if provided.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/in-the-early-days-of-the-pandemic-the-us-government-turned-down-an-offer-to-manufacture-millions-of-n95-masks-in-america/2020/05/09/f76a821e-908a-11ea-a9c0-73b93422d691_story.html
 

and there were other companies warning the Trump administration of a shortage before the Caronavirus hit. I’ll see if I can find it...

[Amati 1,257]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/02/15/coronavirus-mask-shortage-texas-manufacturing/
 

more on the same, and other administrations weren’t on the ball either..

[Amati 1,257]

From March 5, more Washington state stuff

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/03/05/washington-state-asked-us-stockpile-coronavirus-masks-response-raises-concerns/

[Amati 1,257]

Of course it didn’t help that Senator Mike Crapo (R Idaho) was going after a major mask manufacturer at the time - scroll down the link for that

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/washington-state-ordered-227-5-million-in-coronavirus-supplies-from-a-chinese-manufacturer-but-orders-have-trickled-in/

there were some rumors about the senator’s timing- red state/ blue state stuff <wink wink, nudge nudge....>

[12 metre 291]

Trump invoked the DPA on April 3.  But as far as 3M went, the order was to cease exporting N95s to Canada and Latin America - which at least to Canada would be a relatively miniscule amount.  I don't see anything about increasing output or re-purposing existing manufacturing facilities.  Maybe that was done later - IDK.  But one thing to consider is that while the prez can invoke the act, it is the various departments that make the orders to the companies under the DPA.  Or at least that is how I understand it having just done some reading up on it.

[Amati 1,257]

https://www.wired.com/story/defense-production-act-n95-masks-shortage-covid-19/

[Bristol-Cruiser 890]

3 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

Where did I make this about Trump? 

I was just disseminating information... In fact I made it clear that I have no bias here.

What's wrong with you people...  

The series of articles includes an editorial entitled, 'Dying in a Leadership Vacuum'. Who do you think they might have been talking about. The papers about trials are fine and good but too technical for the layperson. The editorial should be required reading for every American.

[Amati 1,257]

4 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

OK, thanks. It would have been so much easier to just say that... 

I'm OK with my level of risk and absolutely respect each individual's level of comfort from not leaving the house to selective mask use of their choice. 

 

Is it a selective choice of mask?  
 

As I see it, there’re  2 kinds of freedom here-

1- freedom to infect

2- freedom from infection

and the type of mask (If any)  you use pretty much dictates which freedom you have-

 

[EYESAILOR 453]

Its time this country had an unconstrained supply of  N95 masks.

The N95 mask is many factors more effective than the paper and cotton junk. The N95 is like wearing a Kevlar bullet proof vest. Sure a bullet can still find some exposed spots but it helps.  Wearing a cotton bandana is like stuffing cardboard down your shirt. It looks like you have a bullet proof vest on but you really do not

[IStream 2,048]

As I've said before, the single best metric I can come up with for how this country is (not) handling the pandemic is the fact that Joe Blow can't even get Clorox Wipes, much less N95 masks, for love or money. 

If our frontline healthcare workers could get the N95 masks they needed, I'd be willing to live without them but even that low hurdle is too high for 'Murca. 

[EYESAILOR 453]

18 hours ago, IStream said:

As I've said before, the single best metric I can come up with for how this country is (not) handling the pandemic is the fact that Joe Blow can't even get Clorox Wipes, much less N95 masks, for love or money. 

If our frontline healthcare workers could get the N95 masks they needed, I'd be willing to live without them but even that low hurdle is too high for 'Murca. 

That is terrible. This has been going on for 7 months. We should be able to manufacture 50-100 million N95 masks a day....how hard can it be? That would allow every adult to change masks every 3 days. I make my 95s last a couple of weeks with sterilizing .

The masks are key

 

[Matagi 588]

53 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

That is terrible. This has been going on for 7 months. We should be able to manufacture 50-100 million N95 masks a day....how hard can it be? That would allow every adult to change masks every 3 days. I make my 95s last a couple of weeks with sterilizing .

The masks are key

 

I agree. Where I am (GER), the whole discussion now centers around 'wear a mask' and those who still refuse to.

The law is to wear a mask in crowded places. Any mask. You see those self-manufactured cotton ones that don't really fit all over the place. I would say: 80% it is those.

No discussion how much we could gain (esp. v. lockdown) had our respective ministry not c*cked up on the purchase of N95 masks in the spring.

Since then, I think no one in Berlin who cares about their political career goes anywhere near the sourcing topic. This might become a boomerang in the next weeks

[EYESAILOR 453]

When someone writes the history of this, they are going to examine the absence and shortage of N95 masks in the West and notice that they were largely manufactured in China.

Its incredible that there was not an imperative to make high quality masks

[Terry Hollis 282]

11 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

When someone writes the history of this, they are going to examine the absence and shortage of N95 masks in the West and notice that they were largely manufactured in China.

Its incredible that there was not an imperative to make high quality masks

It's a matter of being organised, Taiwan, a small island with 43,000,000 people recognised the pandemic before China did so started border controls in early January.

They had enough N95 masks in stock for the whole country and they continue to make them so that there will never be a shortage.

They have never had a lock down and only seven deaths so far.

[hasher 653]

9 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

It's a matter of being organised, Taiwan, a small island with 43,000,000 people recognised the pandemic before China did so started border controls in early January.

They had enough N95 masks in stock for the whole country and they continue to make them so that there will never be a shortage.

They have never had a lock down and only seven deaths so far.

Intelligent acts exceed the capability of the USA administration at the present time.

[JimBowie 285]

On 10/21/2020 at 11:14 AM, Movable Ballast said:

I don't claim to be any expert on this but thought this group of articles was interesting. No bias just data...

https://www.nejm.org/coronavirus?query=main_nav_lg&amp;fbclid=IwAR1Whnhl-y1-3vggsUJiJnVqPtBYb9nGXJtnoRpFgOBLGFTiPR_aarCknUk

 

I know you don't think for one moment Trump or any of his supporters here on PA give a rats arse about science or experts.  They got their own: Sean Hannity and Crew.

[EYESAILOR 453]

5 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

It's a matter of being organised, Taiwan, a small island with 43,000,000 people recognised the pandemic before China did so started border controls in early January.

They had enough N95 masks in stock for the whole country and they continue to make them so that there will never be a shortage.

They have never had a lock down and only seven deaths so far.

We agree.

The greatest tragedy when history is written for our country will be the shortage of serious N95 masks.

• I speculate that when the outbreak started , the reason that Governors, Public Health spokespeople and the more responsible members of the Administration did not immediately advise or even require masks was because the limited supply of masks that were available were in short supply for hospitals and healthcare workers.
• We (many healthcare professionals)  knew that masks were a key factor in preventing the disease spread before the disease arrived. ...and Im am sure others did as well. We ordered what masks that we could for our facility.  I advocated on this forum back in March that everyone should wear a mask.....but at the same time, give priority to healthcare professionals.  It was in hindsight conflicting advice because, of course, there were not enough masks for the healthcare professionals.
• Then throughout, the spread across America, there have never been enough masks for the public and never enough for healthcare professionals.  Our stock here is exhausted and many are just using the paper masks.
• I feel sure that if we were manufacturing 300 million N95 masks a week and selling them for a dollar fifty a piece, there would be half the number of cases today. It is a respiratory disease that can be slowed down considerably by masks.

Nothing will be as effective as a highly effective and safe vaccine (please come soon) but masks would have allowed a less damaged existence before the vaccine arrives.

 

 

[woodpecker 60]

There is no shortage of N95 Masks.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=n95+masks

[IStream 2,048]

KN95 != N95

[12 metre 291]

17 hours ago, woodpecker said:

There is no shortage of N95 Masks.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=n95+masks

No shortage of vendors promoting masks as N95 or KN95 for sure.

However, all the ones I see on the Amazon link have ear loops rather than headbands.  If it has ear loops, it is not an approved N95 or KN95 (N95 is a US standard whereas KN95 is the equivalent Chinese standard)

That doesn't mean they are not effective against the virus, but they are not real N95 or KN95

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/usernotices/counterfeitResp.html

[woodpecker 60]

3 hours ago, 12 metre said:

No shortage of vendors promoting masks as N95 or KN95 for sure.

However, all the ones I see on the Amazon link have ear loops rather than headbands.  If it has ear loops, it is not an approved N95 or KN95 (N95 is a US standard whereas KN95 is the equivalent Chinese standard)

That doesn't mean they are not effective against the virus, but they are not real N95 or KN95

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/usernotices/counterfeitResp.html

There are masks available with headbands and NIHOS approval. (See below). Trump has prioritized them for Hospitals and First respondents. There are plenty of available.  A certain percentage has to go to them. Read the fine print under the description on Amazon and it will explain this. 
My local suppler has no shortage of them. China has a monopoly on them. There needs to be tariff on them so America can compete making them. Unfortunately Biden is against tariffs.
The left wingers are just using a made up shortage as a battle cry.

https://www.amazon.com/3M-Particulate-Respirator-8210-Pack/dp/B008MCUZZS/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&amp;keywords=kn95&amp;qid=1604182209&amp;sr=8-4&amp;srs=21163419011

 

[12 metre 291]

5 minutes ago, woodpecker said:

There are masks available with headbands and NIHOS approval. (See below). Trump has prioritized them for Hospitals and First respondents. There are plenty of available.  A certain percentage has to go to them. Read the fine print under the description on Amazon and it will explain this. 
My local suppler has no shortage of them. China has a monopoly on them. There needs to be tariff on them so America can compete making them. Unfortunately Biden is against tariffs.
The left wingers are just using a made up shortage as a battle cry.

https://www.amazon.com/3M-Particulate-Respirator-8210-Pack/dp/B008MCUZZS/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&amp;keywords=kn95&amp;qid=1604182209&amp;sr=8-4&amp;srs=21163419011

 

  The link you provided in you previous post mostly or only listed ear loop masks promoted as N95 and KN95

In the link you provide above it says "currently unavailable". 'Nuff said.

[woodpecker 60]

It s

5 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

  The link you provided in you previous post mostly or only listed ear loop masks promoted as N95 and KN95

In the link you provide above it says "currently unavailable". 'Nuff said.

It does, not it says  "Prioritized for organizations on the front lines responding to COVID-19."

 

https://www.amazon.com/3M-Particulate-Respirator-8210-Pack/dp/B008MCUZZS/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&amp;keywords=kn95&amp;qid=1604182209&amp;sr=8-4&amp;srs=21163419011