Ajax

Splicing rode to chain

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I have a rather large thimble spliced to my anchor rode which I use to shackle the anchor to. I have standard, nylon 3-strand.  The thimble usually gets hung up when exiting the hawsepipe and I have to fiddle with it to get it free, and also fiddle to fit it back down during retrieval.

I'm curious about splicing the rode directly to the chain, which I know many of you have done.  Can you post some photos and advice? For example, how many links of chain do you weave the rode through?  Aside from flexibility, is there any reason why I should upgrade to one a plait rode?

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I think you may be confusing wire/rope splices with rope to chain spicing.  I have 12 plait anchor rode and have that spliced directly to the last link on the chain.

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^^ Looks like a nice solution, but I wonder about chafe.

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Either the back splice or a shovel splice.  If you go to any rigging forum there is probably a nice thread similar to offset companion ways....

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4 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Either the back splice or a shovel splice.  If you go to any rigging forum there is probably a nice thread similar to offset companion ways....

Oh Lord... this is one of those religious topics?

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

I have a rather large thimble spliced to my anchor rode which I use to shackle the anchor to. I have standard, nylon 3-strand.  The thimble usually gets hung up when exiting the hawsepipe and I have to fiddle with it to get it free, and also fiddle to fit it back down during retrieval.

I'm curious about splicing the rode directly to the chain, which I know many of you have done.  Can you post some photos and advice? For example, how many links of chain do you weave the rode through?  Aside from flexibility, is there any reason why I should upgrade to one a plait rode?

Here’s what I did last year when my local shop refused to splice my rope to chain - they said the rope was “too stiff”.  That was annoying.  And the light went off in my head - one more thing to be self-sufficient at !  (Honestly, it wasn’t new rope, but since it was the other totally unused end of the entire rode, it was perfectly fine and easy to work with:  I did it just fine.  I figure it was either a ploy to get me to spend a lot of money on a new 150’ piece of 3/4” three-strand, or the splicer could afford to be choosy, as some pros in some fields can about what jobs they take on.

Anyway - I found it reasonably easy after I got the hang of it.  I did stress (probably unnecessarily!) about a few of the details.

Below are the two resources I used.  (And I printed off a copy of it [New England rules guide: below] for my nav table for future reference (someone here recommended it); and also poked around and found this video as well, which I referred to as I spliced: very useful.  It’s worked perfectly fine.   Maybe practice beforehand with a short piece of rope?

https://www.neropes.com/services/splicing/3-strand-rope-to-chain-splice/

 

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Way more easy than I expected. All the videos seem to follow the same process, except that some get fancy and taper the splice.

The only downside I can see, is that the rode is permanently attached to the chain. I can still quickly disconnect the anchor from the chain shackle though. I guess I'll go for it. One more little winter project.

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3 minutes ago, Ajax said:

The only downside I can see, is that the rode is permanently attached to the chain. I can still quickly disconnect the anchor from the chain shackle though. I guess I'll go for it. One more little winter project.

Could the rope rode be spliced to a shackle? The typical shackle with rating comparable to the chain is smaller than the thimble eye construction which gets jammed in the hawse pipe. Be sure to wire it when in use.

Those splices are quite easy. But people shouldn't expect great results on the first try after watching a YouTube. Tapering a little is nice. As is melting the ends back flush. Somewhat used rope is easier to work with than the too slippery new rope.

The idea of the rope to chain splice is that the thimble can be deleted only if the rope is very tight on the chain link so as to prevent wear. So pay attention to that detail.

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Rule of thumb with three strand is three tucks minimum, it's a good idea to take two of the strands a additional one and two tucks respectively to make a taper and eliminate a hard spot in the splice.  I usually always go a bit more. A tidy finish is to use 40 or 42# siene twine and serve from the standing part of the line up onto the splice a ways.  Keeps the strands captive and adds some chaffe protection.

Probably the hardest part people have is getting the first tucks in neatly.  I would practice till this is neat and the strand tension is uniform.  You want the load to bare evenly on all strands.  Also when making your tucks don't over tighten. They should match the lay of the line for feel.

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I did this a  few years ago and found that it was easier than I expected.  I did use more than 3 tucks, just to make me feel better.  I will be doing this again this winter as its time to swap the rode  end for end.

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1 minute ago, py26129 said:

I did this a  few years ago and found that it was easier than I expected.  I did use more than 3 tucks, just to make me feel better.  I will be doing this again this winter as its time to swap the rode  end for end.

I'll be doing at least 7 tucks.

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8 minutes ago, Ajax said:

I'll be doing at least 7 tucks.

What those guys said above - didn’t have time to put in earlier reply, running out the door trying not to miss my ferry!

Plenty of tucks, nice and solid, and the first wraps on the link should be nice and tight, to avoid chafe.  (Naturally, inspect regularly.)

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

The only downside I can see, is that the rode is permanently attached to the chain. I can still quickly disconnect the anchor from the chain shackle though.

Why would you want to separate the 3 parts unless it was to replace one or more of them?

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Here is a photo of the splice I did for the anchor for our 12' boats.  Hasn't seen water yet. The splice was not difficult.

anchor.jpg

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2 minutes ago, 2airishuman said:

Here is a photo of the splice I did for the anchor for our 12' boats.  Hasn't seen water yet. The splice was not difficult.

anchor.jpg

I tried that long chain splice for a month and it just didn't inspire confidence, so I went back to the usual back splice.

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18 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Why would you want to separate the 3 parts unless it was to replace one or more of them?

Lots of reasons.

On a smaller, dinghy-sized boat you might want to remove the rope so that you can rig a "clothesline anchor" where you drop the anchor off the shore a ways having tied off the end of the rode to the bow and passed the working end through the chain cleat then taken it onto the (rocky) shore, so you can pull the boat back to the anchor while you have lunch.

You might need the rode for something else, maybe another anchor, or to extend another shorter rode.

You might have something hopelessly fouled and want to save whatever pieces you can, or to deal with each part of the problem by itself, particularly if diving to solve the problem.

In this particular case I did the splice because I want the whole thing to be light and easy to stow.

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Ok, so I'm not crazy. I knew I'd seen people splice to multiple links. This is a 10k lb. boat. I think I'll go with the other style.

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I used to replace the rope/chain splice on Sparky every year, as the splice tends to trap moisture and corrode the last link. It's simple, easy, fun. 

I don't think I ever went past 5 full tucks, then a 6th with 2 strands, and a 7th with one, to taper the splice. It went through the windlass just fine. 

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I've done it for a lot of friends, I always do the back splice style. I've seen 3 tucks 5, 7.  there doesn't apparently seem to have any more holding power in the number of tucksonce your past 3, its a style thing. I do 5/6/7 on three strand to make a taper, melt the ends but let them stick out 3/4" or so , when the anchor loads up a couple times they bury, I'll make them neater after they have been tensioned. 

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Haha that didn't take long....2airs pic is the infamous shovel splice, so named because of its propensity to bring alot of the bottom up with it.

I happen to like it on a backup setup but the ones I've done are a bit overkill.  The concept is all strands are divided into four groups then alternately tucked through the links up the chain.  For me done overkill running several feet up the chain it seems to be a better overall connection than the single link splice.  It's alot more work tends to be messy and is a bitch to get clean.  Also in load testing these almost always perform poorly IE my overkill approach.

 

For me if I had a dedicated chain line rode as primary I would keep it as simple as possible and do a simple back splice as above and consider it a wear item just like shackles that get thrown out seasonal.  The link usually turns into a rust show as well and is a good idea to cut off.  If your handy at line work a good trick is to actually make the splice a bit loose on the link then load it up from a fixed point to a winch. Then do a dynema siezing right at the link to lock it in under load and serve back up from standing part with the siene time as mentioned above. This is the overkill vs.

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If you want to be particular, the number of tucks depends on the material of the rope used. nylon and polyester use 5 tucks.

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9 minutes ago, mgs said:

If you want to be particular, the number of tucks depends on the material of the rope used. nylon and polyester use 5 tucks.

This is only about Manila not that new fangled stuff

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YMMV, but the back-splice would not feed through my windlass.  I had to replace it with the shovel splice, though it certainly isn’t comfortable to look at.  

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40 minutes ago, toddster said:

YMMV, but the back-splice would not feed through my windlass.  I had to replace it with the shovel splice, though it certainly isn’t comfortable to look at.  

Did you have a taper?

I don't have a windlass, but I might in the future.

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17 minutes ago, Ajax said:
58 minutes ago, toddster said:

YMMV, but the back-splice would not feed through my windlass.  I had to replace it with the shovel splice, though it certainly isn’t comfortable to look at.  

Did you have a taper?

I don't have a windlass, but I might in the future.

I do 7 tucks, the last couple with taper. I have no problems getting the transition through my windlass.

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1 hour ago, SASSAFRASS said:

This is only about Manila not that new fangled stuff

yeah, well to be really particular... when splicing 8 plait spun polyester only needs 3 tucks while nylon, and nylon need 4...

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Being facetious, in regards to the USCG still not having advanced past Marlin as a standard.  Not sure if you can even buy it anymore.

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Tarred Marlin is still around, I always have a few fathoms in my work stuff. 

And manilla is still spec'd for some things on ships.  I've seen nylon lifelines on a davit rejected in an audit because they should have been manilla.  

With regards to # of tucks in three strand, I use a minimum of three for natural fiber and four with synthetic.  

 

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I’m pretty sure humor doesn’t exist in the treasury/customs/homeland security or whoever is responsible for the CG these days

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42 minutes ago, mgs said:

I’m pretty sure humor doesn’t exist in the treasury/customs/homeland security or whoever is responsible for the CG these days

It's kinda splitting hairs on manila-nylon-poly but it really boggles the mind that 20 years into proven synthetics something like lifelines being required to be Manila could even exit.  I'm all for going green but that's just buracracy at it's worse.

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2 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

It's kinda splitting hairs on manila-nylon-poly but it really boggles the mind that 20 years into proven synthetics something like lifelines being required to be Manila could even exit.  I'm all for going green but that's just buracracy at it's worse.

Are you asking how much Manila is used on the Barque Eagle?

I’m actually curious about that now...

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Haha pretty sure it would take a act of Congress to change that.  I met a girl who was on two Atlantic crossings during a safety inspection, she was OIC, never thought to ask.  She was up in the yards mid Atlantic though, super cool.

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I've only ever done a "back splice" - i.e. spliced the rope back into itself rather than along the chain. This splice has never let me down. It is worth tapering the individual strands as you go... it seems to help the spiced robe go through the winch.

 

You are correct though... this is one of the divisive topics where there are staunch adherents to each of the possible methods with compelling and passionate arguments about which is best. AFAIK both work.

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I've been running the shovel splice for about 8 years now, been happy with it.  It was looking dodgy at about year 5, I chopped it off and re-spliced it - cost me a foot.

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On 11/2/2020 at 7:56 AM, SloopJonB said:

Why would you want to separate the 3 parts unless it was to replace one or more of them?

I separate our rode from the anchor to make them easier to carry.  We don't have an anchor locker or a hawsepipe, it all lives below.  Expect to see a thread on how to make my race boat have a more cruising friendly anchor setup soon...

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On 11/2/2020 at 1:34 PM, Ishmael said:

I do 7 tucks, the last couple with taper. I have no problems getting the transition through my windlass.

Textbook, but I found that the backsplice is just a little stiff to make the bend down my hawse hole off the cathead, causing the chain to buckle and cause an alarming slam stop to my windlass.

I know some purists swear 7 tucks is the absolute min, but we're not talking square rigged man o' wars on the Spanish main here. I'd experiment with fewer tucks or a longer taper. My 5 tucks with 2 tapering tucks still occasionally hung up, but that was as short as I was willing to go.

A casual glance each time you haul it in will tell you if it's wearing.

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2 minutes ago, Willin' said:

Textbook, but I found that the backsplice is just a little stiff to make the bend down my hawse hole off the cathead, causing the chain to buckle and cause an alarming slam stop to my windlass.

I know some purists swear 7 tucks is the absolute min, but we're not talking square rigged man o' wars on the Spanish main here. I'd experiment with fewer tucks or a longer taper. My 5 tucks with 2 tapering tucks still occasionally hung up, but that was as short as I was willing to go.

A casual glance each time you haul it in will tell you if it's wearing.

We do the same number of tucks, just worded it differently. I have found that getting it wet then beating the shit out of it to set it helps it flex.

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3 hours ago, Willin' said:

I know some purists swear 7 tucks is the absolute min, but we're not talking square rigged man o' wars on the Spanish main here. I'd experiment with fewer tucks or a longer taper. My 5 tucks with 2 tapering tucks still occasionally hung up, but that was as short as I was willing to go.

I'm not suggesting you take it to this extreme, but at least one academic test on 3-strand polyster, showed that for a simple strength test, anything over 3 tucks made no difference for an eye splice. I would suggest you should feel comfortable with your 5 full tucks.

https://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/5697/6/strathprints005697.pdf

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4 hours ago, Ishmael said:

getting it wet then beating the shit out of it to set it

I like the look on newbies' faces when they show me their first unassisted three strand splice and (if it's correct) I throw it down on deck and start rolling it underfoot.

"Good job!  Now make me a snotter with nine inch eyes that's exactly eighteen feet long"  

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1 minute ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

I like the look on newbies' faces when they show me their first unassisted three strand splice and (if it's correct) I throw it down on deck and start rolling it underfoot.

"Good job!  Now make me a snotter with nine inch eyes that's exactly eighteen feet long"  

Yeah. Took me 2 attempts to get a dyneema luff rope with a locked brummel splice each end the exact correct length. I found another use for the first (too long but not by much) one.

FKT

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40 minutes ago, Mark Morwood said:

I'm not suggesting you take it to this extreme, but at least one academic test on 3-strand polyster, showed that for a simple strength test, anything over 3 tucks made no difference for an eye splice. I would suggest you should feel comfortable with your 5 full tucks.

https://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/5697/6/strathprints005697.pdf

Many thanks for that Mark!

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Three tucks is what you sometimes se on commercially spliced line.

I spliced an anchor line one time and gave it 11 (!) tucks on both sides of the join.

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For me there is method to the madness of doing more than 3 tucks, and I have some evidence to support this. I use 3 tucks before I start to taper each strand and then taper down to almost nothing over the next 3 or 4 tucks. Tapering will always make the splice stronger than un-tapered. This makes sense from an engineering point of view and I have seen real world verification of this (I did some splicing for the Australian Navy for an application that was deemed sufficiently important  to actually destructively test some of the splices, so I have some first hand real data).

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I think the issues of the splice going through the whatever tends to be a product of over tightening as above.  Making it a brick doesn't really make it any stronger.

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On 11/2/2020 at 11:11 AM, mgs said:

If you want to be particular, the number of tucks depends on the material of the rope used. nylon and polyester use 5 tucks.

Polyester has no place in an anchor rode.

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3 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Polyester has no place in an anchor rode.

Right. I was talking about three strand splices

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3 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Polyester has no place in an anchor rode.

Well...there are conflicting opinions on this. The usual reason given for using nylon is that it stretches and therefore is easier on the boat. With that reasoning, boaters shouldn't be using chain. However, they do, and they get the stretch back by using a nylon snubber. I have seen at least a couple of studies that show that polyester is better for anchoring. Here's a random quote from some guy on the internet that sums up the arguments.

Quote

I called Bevis ropes and the very nice lady said she didn't
know the answer so she had me talk to the President of
the company (I've never had that happen before!). He
said they started using mainly polyester rope about 15
years ago (they still make 3 strand nylon if you want it).
Here is his reasoning for using polyester:

Strength:
Nylon loses 5% of it's strength when wet.
Polyester has no loss in strength when wet.
Strength ends up being comparable when wet.

Abrasion:
Polyester is much more abrasion resistant compared to
nylon, he empahsized this as one of the big positives
for polyester.

Stretch:
Nylon stretches 22-24%
Polyester stretches 15%
He said that the amount of stretch in polyester is
sufficient for an anchor rode. The stretch doesn't
become a factor until you reach 80-90% of the
breaking strength and by then the cleat will have
ripped out anyway.

I thought these were some interesting observations
from him. I'm still undecided on what to do. I
choose the braided line because as someone commented
earlier, I find it easier on my hands than 3 strand.

That being said, I use nylon on chain.

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8 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Doesn't poly float?

Polypropylene floats. Polyester doesn't.

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

Well...there are conflicting opinions on this. The usual reason given for using nylon is that it stretches and therefore is easier on the boat. With that reasoning, boaters shouldn't be using chain. However, they do, and they get the stretch back by using a nylon snubber. I have seen at least a couple of studies that show that polyester is better for anchoring. Here's a random quote from some guy on the internet that sums up the arguments.

That being said, I use nylon on chain.

St. Steve Dashew sez polyester, not nylon. 

https://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/docs/dashew-right-rode.pdf

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9 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

He only did that to spite the Pardeys

I thought they were into 3/4" handwoven pubic hair.

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^ I know you have a copy of Sailing the farm don't lie.  That might actually be in there or a "how to"

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On 11/2/2020 at 7:49 AM, Ajax said:

I have a rather large thimble spliced to my anchor rode which I use to shackle the anchor to. I have standard, nylon 3-strand.  The thimble usually gets hung up when exiting the hawsepipe and I have to fiddle with it to get it free, and also fiddle to fit it back down during retrieval.

I'm curious about splicing the rode directly to the chain, which I know many of you have done.  Can you post some photos and advice? For example, how many links of chain do you weave the rode through?  Aside from flexibility, is there any reason why I should upgrade to one a plait rode?

I don't have time to read all the answers right now - but real quick:

I have been splicing my anchor rode to the chain for years with no issues. Every few years I cut it off, swap ends, and redo it. It isn't all that hard or time consuming.

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There are suggestions that the stretch in nylon make it great for warps and snubbers, but it's too stretchy for the rode of a larger heavier yacht. Personally I've not seen great evidence either way, but there's some sense in the argument.

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11 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Well...there are conflicting opinions on this. The usual reason given for using nylon is that it stretches and therefore is easier on the boat. With that reasoning, boaters shouldn't be using chain. However, they do, and they get the stretch back by using a nylon snubber.

Chain doesn't stretch but the catenary shape from its weight give you some damping.

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

Chain doesn't stretch but the catenary shape from its weight give you some damping.

You can stretch it - once. It will stay stretched.

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There are two methods I have used.

1 - The strands go one way and the chain goes the other, basically an end-to-end splice like a wire to rope halyard.  I didn't like it, I found it to be a PITA and then some to keep the whole assembly under tension and if you don't all the strain is taken in one place.

HARD

Multiplait_To_Chain_Step7.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

 

2. The back splice where the strands wrap around the last link and then go back. These are easy and I have some whipping cord to finish it off. The photo shows about 3 tucks, I do way more and when whip it - whip it good.

EASY

$_1.JPG?set_id=2&f=1&nofb=1

 

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For the OCD ones if you want to make a really nice taper, after your initial mandatory tucks you can start reducing the strands.  Cut the same amount off all three do a few more tucks repeat till it comes to a point. Served over with small stuff this makes a very fine taper and remains pretty flexible. It's definitely more of a I dont have anything else to do today process.

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2 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

For the OCD ones if you want to make a really nice taper, after your initial mandatory tucks you can start reducing the strands.  Cut the same amount off all three do a few more tucks repeat till it comes to a point. Served over with small stuff this makes a very fine taper and remains pretty flexible. It's definitely more of a I dont have anything else to do today process.

The last bit of tapering and serving will take about 75% of the total time involved ;)

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47 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

You can stretch it - once. It will stay stretched.

Well yes but to do this, you have to be uncomfortably close to it breaking limit and above its SWL!

I just meant in normal operation.

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18 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

It's definitely more of a I dont have anything else to do today process.

That's what winter's for.

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7 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Well yes but to do this, you have to be uncomfortably close to it breaking limit and above its SWL!

I just meant in normal operation.

For sure. I have read about being unable to use a windlass after a hurricane because the chain stretched just enough to jam the gypsy. That of course means that chain is now trashed.

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13mm dynex shroud tucked splice with strand reduction and a 3/4 mooring line same. Don't ask how long the dynex took.

IMG_20201105_091532517_HDR.jpg

IMG_20201105_091746774.jpg

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

For sure. I have read about being unable to use a windlass after a hurricane because the chain stretched just enough to jam the gypsy. That of course means that chain is now trashed.

I wouldn't have thought of this, bicycle chains die similarly (they eventually skip some cog teeths at which point you realise the whole drivetrain is worn and needs to be changed). I imagine that the steel used for chains is fairly ductile (low tensile strength) so that it will deform quite a bit before breaking. TBH, I think that at the peak of the hurricane, they were probably one marginally stronger gust away from catastrophe.

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33 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

I wouldn't have thought of this, bicycle chains die similarly (they eventually skip some cog teeths at which point you realise the whole drivetrain is worn and needs to be changed). I imagine that the steel used for chains is fairly ductile (low tensile strength) so that it will deform quite a bit before breaking. TBH, I think that at the peak of the hurricane, they were probably one marginally stronger gust away from catastrophe.

No doubt.

During hurricane Charlie we had about 150 feet of nylon out in 10 feet of water and the result was like a bungee-cord thrill ride. It would stretch WAY out and then the boat would climb back upwind in the lulls. The USCG had to help us with the anchor the next day, it had burrowed down through the mud and into solid clay and was NOT coming up no matter what we tried.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

No doubt.

During hurricane Charlie we had about 150 feet of nylon out in 10 feet of water and the result was like a bungee-cord thrill ride. It would stretch WAY out and then the boat would climb back upwind in the lulls. The USCG had to help us with the anchor the next day, it had burrowed down through the mud and into solid clay and was NOT coming up no matter what we tried.

And that's where the suggestion for poly rather than nylon for a rode makes some sense.

 

May not have helped getting the anchor or, but less of a bungee.

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7 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

And that's where the suggestion for poly rather than nylon for a rode makes some sense.

 

May not have helped getting the anchor or, but less of a bungee.

But the bungee effect is why we didn't drag - we LIKED it :)

Those bands you see on the TV hurricane radar maps sound like a combination of God's own giant vacuum cleaner and a freight train coming across the river for you. When they would slam into us a nice big stretch was way better than a yank that could pull the anchor out or just break something ;)

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On 11/3/2020 at 2:32 PM, Willin' said:

Textbook, but I found that the backsplice is just a little stiff to make the bend down my hawse hole off the cathead, causing the chain to buckle and cause an alarming slam stop to my windlass.

I know some purists swear 7 tucks is the absolute min, but we're not talking square rigged man o' wars on the Spanish main here. I'd experiment with fewer tucks or a longer taper. My 5 tucks with 2 tapering tucks still occasionally hung up, but that was as short as I was willing to go.

A casual glance each time you haul it in will tell you if it's wearing.

My friend, who was chief rigger at a naval shipyard said 5 tucks min. 

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20 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Well...there are conflicting opinions on this. The usual reason given for using nylon is that it stretches and therefore is easier on the boat. With that reasoning, boaters shouldn't be using chain. However, they do, and they get the stretch back by using a nylon snubber. I have seen at least a couple of studies that show that polyester is better for anchoring. Here's a random quote from some guy on the internet that sums up the arguments.

That being said, I use nylon on chain.

Surely the point of chain is that the action of lifting the chain off the bottom to straighten it under load is exactly the same effect as stretch in the rope? And yes, when you take up all the chain, you can generate a snatch load, particularly if you use all chain, but that's why you use a nice long stretchy snubber.

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2 hours ago, Al Paca said:

My friend, who was chief rigger at a naval shipyard said 5 tucks min. 

This is where it all gets archaic. I learned eye splicing on 3" 3 strand  nylon dock lines at a Navy rigging shop in 1973 or so. I don't know if the instructor was a master rigger or just a yard bird, but the mil. spec on dock lines for a 365' boat called for 7 tucks. I just figgered there was a reason for that. We can all choose whether more is better or less is adequate.

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So you decide to go with some chain, a lot of polyester, then a serious bit of nylon snubber. How many tucks for a 5/8"  long splice?

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12 hours ago, Weyalan said:

Surely the point of chain is that the action of lifting the chain off the bottom to straighten it under load is exactly the same effect as stretch in the rope? And yes, when you take up all the chain, you can generate a snatch load, particularly if you use all chain, but that's why you use a nice long stretchy snubber.

 

22 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Chain doesn't stretch but the catenary shape from its weight give you some damping.

I think we agree...

;)

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On 11/5/2020 at 1:06 PM, Weyalan said:

Surely the point of chain is that the action of lifting the chain off the bottom to straighten it under load is exactly the same effect as stretch in the rope? 

No. In about 25 knots of wind our anchor chain would be entirely lifted off the bottom with very little curve left. Thus very little ability to stretch and absorb shock like nylon rope.

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The only reason to use all chain is so you don't sail all over the Ancorage like the cats... 

On small boats I would guess there is little or no shock absorbtion from chain catenary. We had 200' out and I thought we were going to break the bow sprit trying to get it back in a blow.

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47 minutes ago, Zonker said:

No. In about 25 knots of wind our anchor chain would be entirely lifted off the bottom with very little curve left. Thus very little ability to stretch and absorb shock like nylon rope.

You quote me particularly selectively, choosing to ignore my point about using a stretchy snubber if using all chain, for when you have taken up all the catenary. I totally understand that if you straighten your chain it ceases to provide elastic damping of shock loading. For what it is worth, nylon rope behaves pretty much the same at higher loads... recoverable elastic deformation, semi-recoverable plastic deformation, plastic deformation, yield, failure... you just need higher winds to surpass the elastic range....

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38 minutes ago, Weyalan said:

You quote me particularly selectively, choosing to ignore my point about using a stretchy snubber if using all chain, for when you have taken up all the catenary. I totally understand that if you straighten your chain it ceases to provide elastic damping of shock loading. For what it is worth, nylon rope behaves pretty much the same at higher loads... recoverable elastic deformation, semi-recoverable plastic deformation, plastic deformation, yield, failure... you just need higher winds to surpass the elastic range....

Sorry, I should have read your 2nd sentence more carefully. 

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On 11/5/2020 at 3:06 PM, Weyalan said:

Surely the point of chain is that the action of lifting the chain off the bottom to straighten it under load is exactly the same effect as stretch in the rope? And yes, when you take up all the chain, you can generate a snatch load, particularly if you use all chain, but that's why you use a nice long stretchy snubber.

No, the point of chain is that it won't get cut or abraded by sharp rocks, coral, debris, etc.

The recent studies have shown that there is no useful snubbing effect from catenary except perhaps in uncommonly deep anchorages

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27 minutes ago, 2airishuman said:

No, the point of chain is that it won't get cut or abraded by sharp rocks, coral, debris, etc.

The recent studies have shown that there is no useful snubbing effect from catenary except perhaps in uncommonly deep anchorages

Hmm, assuming that is the case, it is surprising that more weight or performance conscious sailors don't use a more lightweight abrasion resistant material?

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9 hours ago, Zonker said:

No. In about 25 knots of wind our anchor chain would be entirely lifted off the bottom with very little curve left. Thus very little ability to stretch and absorb shock like nylon rope.

Some people add a weight midway between anchor and bow roller to keep the damping effect in higher winds. In strong winds, the nylon + chain combination is hard to beat IMHO, the chain avoids chaffing on the sea bed and nylon dampens things a bit.

Does this count as bringing it back on topic ?

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58 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Some people add a weight midway between anchor and bow roller to keep the damping effect in higher winds. In strong winds, the nylon + chain combination is hard to beat IMHO, the chain avoids chaffing on the sea bed and nylon dampens things a bit.

Does this count as bringing it back on topic ?

Called a Kellet in English. We put floats on moorings to do the same ! 
 

 

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12 hours ago, Weyalan said:

Hmm, assuming that is the case, it is surprising that more weight or performance conscious sailors don't use a more lightweight abrasion resistant material?

I'm not sure there are any that are practicable.  Kevlar, for example, is tough but it floats and is not UV resistant.

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4 hours ago, 2airishuman said:

I'm not sure there are any that are practicable.  Kevlar, for example, is tough but it floats and is not UV resistant.

I was thinking more along the lines of a marine grade aluminium alloy, with sodium dichromate anodising, perhaps, or maybe a titanium alloy, but it would be easy enough to make kevlar non floaty and protected from UV

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