billy backstay

Make America Great Again???

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BJ posted this in another thread, but it truly deserves it's own, and hits the nail on the head!!  THANKS PORTER!!  :(

 

"Many of us have operated on the assumption for years that the U.S. truly is a democracy, the land of the free with equal opportunity and freedom for all. That racial prejudice, bigotry and small-mindedness were on the wane, and we were growing for a smarter, better and stronger future.

This election - no matter the results of the presidential race - has proved that none of that is really true at all.

In fact, almost half the country is just fine running on ignorance, racism and greed. This IS who we are.

Many minorities in the U.S. will tell us it has always been who we were. If you think about it, from the perspective of a black American, is this country really all that great? My parents, still alive, were born in 1941. The heart of the Jim Crow era, still. They lived in New England, but there were still "sundown towns" up there. There are still many living Americans who pre-date the civil rights era and had to put up with this shit.

Can anyone here say they'd really want to have lived as a black man in the south in the 1950s? Emmitt Till was murdered in 1955 because a white woman lied about how he talked to her. He was a few months older than my father, visiting relatives in Mississippi. Coming from Chicago, he really appreciate what could happen to him for standing too close to a white woman in the south. And his murderers were acquitted.

 

When people say "Make America Great Again" this is the time period they want to bring us back to - the 1950s, when women and Negroes knew their places. When else are they talking about? The sixties, with civil rights, the Vietnam War, and the sexual revolution? The 70s? Women's liberation, Watergate and disco? The 1980s? Some are pining for Ronald Reagan, but we know that's not what they mean, and he was way too liberal for these people anyway.

 

So that's what the MAGA crowd - almost half the country - wants. A return to a country where women and minorities are deferent and white people have the advantage everywhere.

I'd say "this is isn't the America I knew," but really, it is. Growing up white and male in America, I have to LOOK to see the racism and sexism because it never applies to me. But it's there, it's always been there. "Political correctness" just meant that like your dick, you couldn't take it out and play with it in public. But it never went away, and people got sick of having to bite their tongues.

So we're going to "Make America Great Again" to bring America back to some white ideal that never existed at the expense of equality and opportunity for all.

In a decent country, a Donald Trump wouldn't get 10% of the vote. He'd be a fringe lunatic of a fringe party. That this race is even close is an indictment on the national character of the United States of America. We were measured and found wanting. We are not a decent country."

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Sure, but this "Us and Them" attitude is just as destructive as the MAGA attitude.

You need to look for common ground to start change.

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7 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

BJ posted this in another thread, but it truly deserves it's own, and hits the nail on the head!!  THANKS PORTER!!  :(

 

"Many of us have operated on the assumption for years that the U.S. truly is a democracy, the land of the free with equal opportunity and freedom for all. That racial prejudice, bigotry and small-mindedness were on the wane, and we were growing for a smarter, better and stronger future.

This election - no matter the results of the presidential race - has proved that none of that is really true at all.

In fact, almost half the country is just fine running on ignorance, racism and greed. This IS who we are.

 

I think that is a little harsh.  Not everyone that voted for Biden is a racist.   People are just so blinded by their hatred that they are willing to vote for a racist segregationist dishonest corrupt Washington insider as long as they aren't Trump.

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3 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Sure, but this "Us and Them" attitude is just as destructive as the MAGA attitude.

You need to look for common ground to start change.

You can't have common ground when one side denies reality.

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3 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Sure, but this "Us and Them" attitude is just as destructive as the MAGA attitude.

You need to look for common ground to start change.

 

I have little common ground with them when it comes to equal rights, racism, ,etc..

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Very blunty: you guys know better.

And you could and should come out of his ongoing cluster fuck better and stronger.

 

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3 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Sure, but this "Us and Them" attitude is just as destructive as the MAGA attitude.

You need to look for common ground to start change.

What kind of "Common ground" can you find with entrenched racists and white supremacists who do not live in a fact-based reality?

Do you really think I've got common ground with someone like BravoBravo?

 

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4 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Sure, but this "Us and Them" attitude is just as destructive as the MAGA attitude.

You need to look for common ground to start change.

In related news, if Jews had only met Hitler half way WW2 could have been avoided.

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Just now, B.J. Porter said:

What kind of "Common ground" can you find with entrenched racists and white supremacists who do not live in a fact-based reality?

Do you really think I've got common ground with someone like BravoBravo?

 

And why the delusion that once common ground is reached MAGAts won’t decide it’s not actually common ground?

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3 minutes ago, jzk said:

 People are just so blinded by their hatred that they are willing to vote for a racist segregationist dishonest corrupt Washington insider as long as they aren't Trump.

You make that sound charmingly mutually exclusive.  It's downright cute. 

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2 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

I have little common ground with them when it comes to equal rights, racism, ,etc..

At some point there is "right" and "wrong". Human rights, equality, and so on - I do believe there is a right and wrong side to be on when it comes to the right of all humans to exist as equal and full citizens without regard to race, religion, orientation, or gender.

And how much support of "wrong" can you have before you yourself embody and embrace it?

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1 minute ago, B.J. Porter said:

At some point there is "right" and "wrong". Human rights, equality, and so on - I do believe there is a right and wrong side to be on when it comes to the right of all humans to exist as equal and full citizens without regard to race, religion, orientation, or gender.

And how much support of "wrong" can you have before you yourself embody and embrace it?

When you say "equality," do you mean everyone gets a Hallberg-Rassy 53?

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2 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

What kind of "Common ground" can you find with entrenched racists and white supremacists who do not live in a fact-based reality?

Do you really think I've got common ground with someone like BravoBravo?

That's a generalization.   I have relatives who voted for Trump, and are not remotely close to what you describe. 

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2 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

And why the delusion that once common ground is reached MAGAts won’t decide it’s not actually common ground?

The idea of "common ground" is predicated on the assumption that they are negotiating in good faith.

THEY ARE NOT.

Look how the court nominations have been handled since Obama took president if you want evidence. And that's, as he said, "just the tip."

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3 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

You can't have common ground when one side denies reality.

See this is the thing and it may come as a surprise.

I seriously doubt that everyone who voted trump has a red hat in their closet.

Look outside the cities and look at the numerous problems that rural America faces. Look outside the swing states. 

Find policies that will resonate with Rural America.

a small hint. Before even food on the table, people love their children...common ground.

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Just now, Shortforbob said:

See this is the thing and it may come as a surprise.

I seriously doubt that everyone who voted trump has a red hat in their closet.

Look outside the cities and look at the numerous problems that rural America faces. Look outside the swing states. 

Find policies that will resonate with Rural America.

a small hint. Before even food on the table, people love their children...common ground.

This. 

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Just now, benwynn said:

That's a generalization.   I have relatives who voted for Trump, and are not remotely close to what you describe. 

I have relatives who voted for Trump.

They do not operate in a fact based reality, and the operate in a cocoon of white privilege with no concept how their actions or beliefs impact others.

If you are not "ignorant" you are choosing Trump because you think he's actually good. How is that better?

 

My aunt, who voted for Trump and swears she is not at all racist, wrote this on Facebook a few months ago:

411469704_NaziDefense1_anonymous.JPG.c65f5c0e480bcec03e66b0aa73846dbc.JPG

1822242059_NaziDefense2_anonymous.jpg.46d437973b9d60e8dae2cb0771a97c6f.jpg

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1 minute ago, d'ranger said:

White evangelicals once again overwhelmingly supported Trump. Find the common ground in that one.

That's the thing.

Trump...presented no real ideas. No real policy. Nothing but vague promises, handwaving, lies about his own record, and lies about Biden and Harris.

Biden's policies would literally help almost all the people who voted for Trump.

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2 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I have relatives who voted for Trump.

They do not operate in a fact based reality, and the operate in a cocoon of white privilege with no concept how their actions or beliefs impact others.

If you are not "ignorant" you are choosing Trump because you think he's actually good. How is that better?

 

My aunt, who voted for Trump and swears she is not at all racist, wrote this on Facebook a few months ago:

411469704_NaziDefense1_anonymous.JPG.c65f5c0e480bcec03e66b0aa73846dbc.JPG

1822242059_NaziDefense2_anonymous.jpg.46d437973b9d60e8dae2cb0771a97c6f.jpg

If you feel that the writings of your aunt somehow reflect the character of any of my relatives, I've got news for you.

The relatives I spoke to largely held their nose to vote and voted against Democrats on policy.   When you paint an entire voting populace with a broad brush, and refuse to even consider them to be legitimate, you are part of a problem that Donald Trump is merely a symptom of.

 

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Just now, benwynn said:

If you feel that the writings of your aunt somehow reflect the character of any of my relatives, I've got news for you.

The relatives I spoke to largely held their nose to vote and voted against Democrats on policy.   When you paint an entire voting populace with a broad brush, and refuse to even consider them to be legitimate, you are part of a problem that Donald Trump is merely a symptom of.

 

How could they vote for Republicans on policy? They don't have any beyond "Whatever Trump Says".

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7 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

In related news, if Jews had only met Hitler half way WW2 could have been avoided.

With real respect, that's hysterical bullshit.

A question. If you were someone that's struggled all their lives just to get a mortgage on a 2 bedroom prefab, somehow survived 2008 and had someone banging in your ear that XX was going to take your shitty $20 per hour job from you..you may well be a tolerant decent person but may well be really really afraid.

It's all very well to demonise "those MAGA (insert prefered pejorative) but live in their world with their generational expectations for a couple of days. Most people aren't bad. They just let their fear overwhelm their basic decency and look for a rope. Trump gave them a rope. We know it was made of cellophane, they havent got it wet yet.

 

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1 minute ago, benwynn said:

If you feel that the writings of your aunt somehow reflect the character of any of my relatives, I've got news for you.

The relatives I spoke to largely held their nose to vote and voted against Democrats on policy.   When you paint an entire voting populace with a broad brush, and refuse to even consider them to be legitimate, you are part of a problem that Donald Trump is merely a symptom of.

 

I suspect your erudite and educate Trump voters are in the minority, voting on policy against democrats while vote for Trump's utter lack of policy.

Meanwhile I had white women on Facebook blaming Liberals for forcing her to vote for Trump because we said mean things, glorified abortion, thugs, and looting, and wanted to destroy Democracy.

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1 minute ago, Ishmael said:

How could they vote for Republicans on policy? They don't have any beyond "Whatever Trump Says".

There are stark policy differences.   Abortion and environmental regulation would be two off the top of my head. 

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28 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

BJ posted this in another thread, but it truly deserves it's own, and hits the nail on the head!!  THANKS PORTER!!  :(

 

"Many of us have operated on the assumption for years that the U.S. truly is a democracy, the land of the free with equal opportunity and freedom for all. That racial prejudice, bigotry and small-mindedness were on the wane, and we were growing for a smarter, better and stronger future.

This election - no matter the results of the presidential race - has proved that none of that is really true at all.

In fact, almost half the country is just fine running on ignorance, racism and greed. This IS who we are.

Many minorities in the U.S. will tell us it has always been who we were. If you think about it, from the perspective of a black American, is this country really all that great? My parents, still alive, were born in 1941. The heart of the Jim Crow era, still. They lived in New England, but there were still "sundown towns" up there. There are still many living Americans who pre-date the civil rights era and had to put up with this shit.

Can anyone here say they'd really want to have lived as a black man in the south in the 1950s? Emmitt Till was murdered in 1955 because a white woman lied about how he talked to her. He was a few months older than my father, visiting relatives in Mississippi. Coming from Chicago, he really appreciate what could happen to him for standing too close to a white woman in the south. And his murderers were acquitted.

 

When people say "Make America Great Again" this is the time period they want to bring us back to - the 1950s, when women and Negroes knew their places. When else are they talking about? The sixties, with civil rights, the Vietnam War, and the sexual revolution? The 70s? Women's liberation, Watergate and disco? The 1980s? Some are pining for Ronald Reagan, but we know that's not what they mean, and he was way too liberal for these people anyway.

 

So that's what the MAGA crowd - almost half the country - wants. A return to a country where women and minorities are deferent and white people have the advantage everywhere.

I'd say "this is isn't the America I knew," but really, it is. Growing up white and male in America, I have to LOOK to see the racism and sexism because it never applies to me. But it's there, it's always been there. "Political correctness" just meant that like your dick, you couldn't take it out and play with it in public. But it never went away, and people got sick of having to bite their tongues.

So we're going to "Make America Great Again" to bring America back to some white ideal that never existed at the expense of equality and opportunity for all.

In a decent country, a Donald Trump wouldn't get 10% of the vote. He'd be a fringe lunatic of a fringe party. That this race is even close is an indictment on the national character of the United States of America. We were measured and found wanting. We are not a decent country."

This kinda confirms that article I posted about white America being the problem.  We talk the democracy talk but we don't walk the democracy walk.

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Just now, Shortforbob said:

With real respect, that's hysterical bullshit.

A question. If you were someone that's struggled all their lives just to get a mortgage on a 2 bedroom prefab, somehow survived 2008 and had someone banging in your ear that XX was going to take your shitty $20 per hour job from you..you may well be a tolerant decent person but may well be really really afraid.

It's all very well to demonise "those MAGA (insert prefered pejorative) but live in their world with their generational expectations for a couple of days. Most people aren't bad. They just let their fear overwhelm their basic decency and look for a rope. Trump gave them a rope. We know it was made of cellophane, they havent got it wet yet.

 

Who is making them afraid? Clue:

la-1549663897-n22hd00dgi-snap-image

 

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1 minute ago, B.J. Porter said:

I suspect your erudite and educate Trump voters are in the minority, voting on policy against democrats while vote for Trump's utter lack of policy.

Meanwhile I had white women on Facebook blaming Liberals for forcing her to vote for Trump because we said mean things, glorified abortion, thugs, and looting, and wanted to destroy Democracy.

Oh... Two white woman on FB?   That's different.   I'll give the character assessment of my relatives a second look. 

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1 minute ago, Shortforbob said:

With real respect, that's hysterical bullshit.

A question. If you were someone that's struggled all their lives just to get a mortgage on a 2 bedroom prefab, somehow survived 2008 and had someone banging in your ear that XX was going to take your shitty $20 per hour job from you..you may well be a tolerant decent person but may well be really really afraid.

It's all very well to demonise "those MAGA (insert prefered pejorative) but live in their world with their generational expectations for a couple of days. Most people aren't bad. They just let their fear overwhelm their basic decency and look for a rope. Trump gave them a rope. We know it was made of cellophane, they havent got it wet yet.

 

A $20/hour job in the U.S. isn't all that shitty, when our national minimum wage is $7.75/hour. By U.S. standards, if you're making $20 without a college degree or specialized skills you are doing REALLY well.

People with shitty $8/hour jobs voted against $15/hour, apparently to protect the rights of billionaires to pay lower taxes.

Trump has been president for four years, people who voted for him know exactly what they were getting, and chose it anyway.

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9 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

That's the thing.

Trump...presented no real ideas. No real policy. Nothing but vague promises, handwaving, lies about his own record, and lies about Biden and Harris.

Biden's policies would literally help almost all the people who voted for Trump.

They will hate him for that.  They love to flagellate. 

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10 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

That's the thing.

Trump...presented no real ideas. No real policy. Nothing but vague promises, handwaving, lies about his own record, and lies about Biden and Harris.

Biden's policies would literally help almost all the people who voted for Trump.

 

And Trumps policies helped him and his family and all the one per-centers, and Corporations, nothing for the middle class or lower...

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3 minutes ago, benwynn said:

There are stark policy differences.   Abortion and environmental regulation would be two off the top of my head. 

True. One of my Trump supporting aunts told me she loved that Trump was pro-life, and excuses much of his flaws because of it. Especially since that awful governor of Virginia wants to execute babies after they are born.

Meanwhile, that aunt is in the hospital with a serious health issue, and my Trump supporting cousin is complaining that 1) the governor has locked down the state because RI's Covid numbers are spiking so the hospital allows no visitors and 2) it's unfair that they can't hang out after church and socialize with people.

How do you argue either one of them are living in a fact-based reality? RI is 6th nationally in deaths/million and 3% of the state currently has an active infection.

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Just now, Gone Drinking said:

But Biden won;t be making the policy - Harris, Bernie, AOC and her squad will  be doing that. 

You do know we live in a Democracy, right? Without a king and all that, and a legislature that makes laws? And presidents surround themselves with people who help them develop policies?

If you missed this on Saturday morning when we were kids, maybe a refresher will help.

 

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20 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

With real respect, that's hysterical bullshit.

A question. If you were someone that's struggled all their lives just to get a mortgage on a 2 bedroom prefab, somehow survived 2008 and had someone banging in your ear that XX was going to take your shitty $20 per hour job from you..you may well be a tolerant decent person but may well be really really afraid.

It's all very well to demonise "those MAGA (insert prefered pejorative) but live in their world with their generational expectations for a couple of days. Most people aren't bad. They just let their fear overwhelm their basic decency and look for a rope. Trump gave them a rope. We know it was made of cellophane, they havent got it wet yet.

No. What you're doing is Bothsidering and doing that from the other side of the world for extra credit. These two sides are not the same; they are not doppelgängers. MAGA hat wearers are not the suddenly freed Winkie soldiers today having seen water splashed on their Wicked Witch Of The West last night. Democrats and the Kenyan usurper tried to illegally force insurance reform on the freedom loving MAGAs. They responded by making COVID a point of national pride.

Pollyannish much?  We need bipartisan ships.

 

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9 minutes ago, benwynn said:

Oh... Two white woman on FB?   That's different.   I'll give the character assessment of my relatives a second look. 

Ignorance can be fixed.

A choice to be ignorant...not so much.

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4 minutes ago, Gone Drinking said:

But Biden won;t be making the policy - Harris, Bernie, AOC and her squad will  be doing that. 

Black people, brown people and Jews, oh my. Black people, brown people and Jews, oh my.

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14 minutes ago, benwynn said:

If you feel that the writings of your aunt somehow reflect the character of any of my relatives, I've got news for you.

The relatives I spoke to largely held their nose to vote and voted against Democrats on policy.   When you paint an entire voting populace with a broad brush, and refuse to even consider them to be legitimate, you are part of a problem that Donald Trump is merely a symptom of.

 

Yeah - I've been saying that for quite a while now too.

BJ simply doesn't get it. He's part of the problem but thinks he isn't. He doesn't actually believe in popular voting when it turns out people don't vote as he wishes.

FKT

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6 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

A $20/hour job in the U.S. isn't all that shitty, when our national minimum wage is $7.75/hour. By U.S. standards, if you're making $20 without a college degree or specialized skills you are doing REALLY well.

People with shitty $8/hour jobs voted against $15/hour, apparently to protect the rights of billionaires to pay lower taxes.

Trump has been president for four years, people who voted for him know exactly what they were getting, and chose it anyway.

 

People where I work make 30 or more an hour that work for the corporation.  But the many Contractors make 16 an hour, which is 12 take home dollars an hour, and the UPS contractors who run the shipping wells make less. It's hard to own a decent home, enjoy sailing-boating and drive a decent late model car on 30k a year in New England, with relatively high taxes, living and energy costs, compared to other, more rural areas. 

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9 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I have relatives who voted for Trump.

They do not operate in a fact based reality, and the operate in a cocoon of white privilege with no concept how their actions or beliefs impact others.

If you are not "ignorant" you are choosing Trump because you think he's actually good. How is that better?

 

My aunt, who voted for Trump and swears she is not at all racist, wrote this on Facebook a few months ago:

411469704_NaziDefense1_anonymous.JPG.c65f5c0e480bcec03e66b0aa73846dbc.JPG

1822242059_NaziDefense2_anonymous.jpg.46d437973b9d60e8dae2cb0771a97c6f.jpg

Hell. I've got family that if in the USA would vote for Trump but they wouldn't go to a rally nor wear a hat.

They're poor, lived mostly on "welfare" bigoted, arrogant in their bigotry.

on a personal level I can't stand them..

On a dispassionate level, I know why they are that way and my family isn't.

Hint..it's to do with the different patriarchs of the family.

Both working class, Both "patch pants" poor as kids.

One a gentle dreamer that loved his kids and did everything he could to "raise them up", the other a bully with an abusive bullying mother that taught him to despise people even lower on the social scale and did everything he could not to "raise his sons above him".

If someone had helped those boys they wouldn't be the deadbeats they are.

BUT..one of them escaped, got himself a master builders licence and moved on. (he's the most liberal of the three)

However..on a "one to one" basis, both families are kindness it'self to anyone in trouble.

Common ground.

Just a personal observation, but repeated all over the world.

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15 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I suspect your erudite and educate Trump voters are in the minority, voting on policy against democrats while vote for Trump's utter lack of policy.

Meanwhile I had white women on Facebook blaming Liberals for forcing her to vote for Trump because we said mean things, glorified abortion, thugs, and looting, and wanted to destroy Democracy.

A question BJ, and I'm not being rude. Do you come from a first generational, poor working class background? Because if you don't, I seriously doubt you know much about generational poverty or the aspirations and the roadblocks to those aspirations, no matter how many books or opinions you may read. Including mine.

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27 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

See this is the thing and it may come as a surprise.

I seriously doubt that everyone who voted trump has a red hat in their closet.

Look outside the cities and look at the numerous problems that rural America faces. Look outside the swing states. 

Find policies that will resonate with Rural America.

a small hint. Before even food on the table, people love their children...common ground.

Wrong. Some people view their children as possessions, and then liabilities, and kick them out of the house as soon as possible for any perceived wrong doing.

 I've seen this all across this country, but more here in the south an everywhere else.

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25 minutes ago, benwynn said:

If you feel that the writings of your aunt somehow reflect the character of any of my relatives, I've got news for you.

The relatives I spoke to largely held their nose to vote and voted against Democrats on policy.   When you paint an entire voting populace with a broad brush, and refuse to even consider them to be legitimate, you are part of a problem that Donald Trump is merely a symptom of.

 

Go Ben!!! :D

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45 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Sure, but this "Us and Them" attitude is just as destructive as the MAGA attitude.

You need to look for common ground to start change.

Good God! Even I draw the line at being a trumptard apologist in the pursuit of a good troll. Lift your game meli!

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1 minute ago, Shortforbob said:

Go Ben!!! :D

I'm not saying I have not been guilty of this myself.   I have not had kind words about Trump supporters en mass on this forum.

It was downright traumatic for me seeing the results so close last night.  The division is astounding.  It has me taking another look.  And I don't mean a reconsidering of people like Venom or BozoBozo.  They're idiots.  I just mean that unless we try to come to at least some terms with the general opposition, this is never going to get better.  Ever. 

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35 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

The idea of "common ground" is predicated on the assumption that they are negotiating in good faith.

THEY ARE NOT.

Look how the court nominations have been handled since Obama took president if you want evidence. And that's, as he said, "just the tip."

WHO ARE "THEY"??

Certainly I doubt that your average run of the mill trump voter has a seat at the negotiating table any more than the average run of the mill Democrat does.

You're problem seems to be that you can only see the actions of Elite of both sides. You don't appear to be capable of listening to the small voices.

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Just now, benwynn said:

I'm not saying I have not been guilty of this myself.   I have not had kind words about Trump supporters en mass on this forum.

It was downright traumatic for me seeing the results so close last night.  The division is astounding.  It has me taking another look.  And I don't mean a reconsidering of people like Venom or BozoBozo.  They're idiots.  I just mean that unless we try to come to at least some terms with the general opposition, this is never going to get better.  Ever. 

Emotion V objectivity.

Emotion is more funner.

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4 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Good God! Even I draw the line at being a trumptard apologist in the pursuit of a good troll. Lift your game meli!

:P 

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16 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:
35 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I suspect your erudite and educate Trump voters are in the minority, voting on policy against democrats while vote for Trump's utter lack of policy.

Meanwhile I had white women on Facebook blaming Liberals for forcing her to vote for Trump because we said mean things, glorified abortion, thugs, and looting, and wanted to destroy Democracy.

A question BJ, and I'm not being rude. Do you come from a first generational, poor working class background? Because if you don't, I seriously doubt you know much about generational poverty or the aspirations and the roadblocks to those aspirations, no matter how many books or opinions you may read. Including mine.

No, I'm second generation college educated. My background is no secret, every now and then one of the right wing twats here makes a big deal about my privileged upbringing from wealth and I have to set the record straight. My generation background is firmly middle class.

My grandfathers were machinists, and my parents were the first in both of their families to go to college. My mom's father didn't think she needed to go, and she pretty much paid her own way and got scholarships. My dad's parents were thrilled he was going to school and supported him as best they could with three other kids on working class income, though he worked and contributed a lot, too.

The grandfather who didn't finish high school ended up pursuing a more managerial track and stayed with the same company his whole career, he did well financially for someone with the start he got. The grandfather who did finish catholic high school worked multiple jobs most of his life. Sometimes as a machinist, but also running a family grocery, as a meat cutter, and he played in a dance band.

My parents were both teachers, who valued education highly. One reason they chose to teach in lower paying private school jobs is the job included tuition for us as part of the deal, and saw that as a path to a better education for us. We were not poor growing up and always knew were our next meal coming up.

They also valued education highly enough to sacrifice to get my sister and I to get through college.

 

Yes, there are generationally poor people voting for Trump. Reaching them is part of the problem, and I have more empathy for people who are ignorant from lack of opportunity rather than choice.

But I know a lot of Trump voters who are NOT generationally poor, not even close. They are middle to upper middle class white people, men and women. They knew exactly what they were voting for.

 

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12 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

A question BJ, and I'm not being rude. Do you come from a first generational, poor working class background? Because if you don't, I seriously doubt you know much about generational poverty or the aspirations and the roadblocks to those aspirations, no matter how many books or opinions you may read. Including mine.

Says meli from the comfort of her inner city home. Yes we all know how widely traveled you are. A 3 week holiday in Greek tourist islands will tell you everything you know about world poverty.

you are a prime example of why women should be seen but not heard. 

I hope that bait is fresh enough for you.

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28 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Who is making them afraid? Clue:

la-1549663897-n22hd00dgi-snap-image

 

True. But it's not exclusive to Him.

Just look at the fear mongering religious leaders do..of ALL persuasions.

Fear is a powerful tool and dangerous in the hands of the unethical.  WE KNOW THIS..historically and have had this knowledge for centuries..so..what's the solution? 

Self esteem and education.

 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

See this is the thing and it may come as a surprise.

I seriously doubt that everyone who voted trump has a red hat in their closet.

Look outside the cities and look at the numerous problems that rural America faces. Look outside the swing states. 

Find policies that will resonate with Rural America.

a small hint. Before even food on the table, people love their children...common ground.

Jesus tits on a shingle!  Meli is making sense! You mean it’s more complicated than BJ Porkchop makes it sound with his broad brush and what not ? 

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1 minute ago, B.J. Porter said:

No, I'm second generation college educated.

My grandfathers were machinists, and my parents were the first in both of their families to go to college. My mom's father didn't think she needed to go, and she pretty much paid her own way and got scholarships. My dad's parents were thrilled he was going to school and supported him as best they could with three other kids on working class income, though he worked and contributed a lot, too.

The grandfather who didn't finish high school ended up pursuing a more managerial track and stayed with the same company his whole career, he did well financially for someone with the start he got. The grandfather who did finish catholic high school worked multiple jobs most of his life. Sometimes as a machinist, but also running a family grocery, as a meat cutter, and he played in a dance band.

My parents were both teachers, who valued education highly. One reason they chose to teach in lower paying private school jobs is the job included tuition for us as part of the deal, and saw that as a path to a better education for us. We were not poor growing up and always knew were our next meal coming up.

They also valued education highly enough to sacrifice to get my sister and I to get through college.

 

Yes, there are generationally poor people voting for Trump. Reaching them is part of the problem, and I have more empathy for people who are ignorant from lack of opportunity rather than choice.

But I know a lot of Trump voters who are NOT generationally poor, not even close. They are middle to upper middle class white people, men and women. They knew exactly what they were voting for.

 

OK, so put your anger aside and concentrate on the former. They don't really deserve your contempt. 

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11 minutes ago, benwynn said:

I'm not saying I have not been guilty of this myself.   I have not had kind words about Trump supporters en mass on this forum.

It was downright traumatic for me seeing the results so close last night.  The division is astounding.  It has me taking another look.  And I don't mean a reconsidering of people like Venom or BozoBozo.  They're idiots.  I just mean that unless we try to come to at least some terms with the general opposition, this is never going to get better.  Ever. 

I am not sure how to bridge that gap, and I have not been for some time. After four+ years of dealing with Trump supporters, I've become more convinced there is not a way to do it.

Trump has been president for four years, we KNOW what he is. Choosing to vote for that means you either didn't understand what he is somehow, or you like it. I think you can reach the former, but it's a challenge when they are impervious to facts.

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48 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

White evangelicals

Donald Trump was mocked for awkwardly holding his bible for a photo-op outside of St. John's Episcopal Church earlier this month

Job Done .

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31 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yeah - I've been saying that for quite a while now too.

BJ simply doesn't get it. He's part of the problem but thinks he isn't. He doesn't actually believe in popular voting when it turns out people don't vote as he wishes.

FKT

Oh, fuck off. The results will be what they are, and we'll stand by them.

That doesn't mean we can't judge the choices made, when the options are so stark.

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10 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Says meli from the comfort of her inner city home. Yes we all know how widely traveled you are. A 3 week holiday in Greek tourist islands will tell you everything you know about world poverty.

you are a prime example of why women should be seen but not heard. 

I hope that bait is fresh enough for you.

Sure, but I was born literally on a housing estate, went to school in hand me downs. My dad's the illegitimate son of a northern Baptist coal miners daughter and my mother sewed Knickers and they both left school at 14. so there is that.

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If you get punched in the nose, and think that it's somehow a good thing, then you deserve to get punched in the nose again..... And in theory, you will enjoy it.

 

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29 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yeah - I've been saying that for quite a while now too.

BJ simply doesn't get it. He's part of the problem but thinks he isn't. He doesn't actually believe in popular voting when it turns out people don't vote as he wishes.

FKT

Someone who bitterly complains about tax laws and skirts them to the maximum.  
 

 

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1 minute ago, Mid said:

Donald Trump was mocked for awkwardly holding his bible for a photo-op outside of St. John's Episcopal Church earlier this month

Job Done .

Upside down, and backwards..... Yup, that's what Trump supporters are.....

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14 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

WHO ARE "THEY"??

Certainly I doubt that your average run of the mill trump voter has a seat at the negotiating table any more than the average run of the mill Democrat does.

You're problem seems to be that you can only see the actions of Elite of both sides. You don't appear to be capable of listening to the small voices.

"They" are the people flying flags that say "Trump 2020: Make Liberals Cry Again" or flying confederate battle flags.

Those are small voices, and they are really, really ugly ones.

Their leadership does what they do because they know their supporters are OK with them hurting people.

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3 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I am not sure how to bridge that gap, and I have not been for some time. After four+ years of dealing with Trump supporters, I've become more convinced there is not a way to do it.

Trump has been president for four years, we KNOW what he is. Choosing to vote for that means you either didn't understand what he is somehow, or you like it. I think you can reach the former, but it's a challenge when they are impervious to facts.

Or..there's another option. One cant afford to put principles before ones job..How very weak minded people are.

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6 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

OK, so put your anger aside and concentrate on the former. They don't really deserve your contempt. 

Why thanks, Mum!

But I'm an adult and I'll think what I like.

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3 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

"Trump 2020: Make Liberals Cry Again"

THIS

 

is the absolute crux .

 

Elections are about bettering the country NOT hurting your opponent .

 

America has much to learn about Democracy .

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2 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

"They" are the people flying flags that say "Trump 2020: Make Liberals Cry Again" or flying confederate battle flags.

Those are small voices, and they are really, really ugly ones.

Their leadership does what they do because they know their supporters are OK with them hurting people.

You mean the ones with boats? 

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2 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Why thanks, Mum!

But I'm an adult and I'll think what I like.

Sure. son. :)

(I say that to Liam nearly every day :D)

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Is anyone else around here sick and fucking tired of looking at BJ's Hallberg-Rassy?

If you were actually an environmentalist, BJ, you'd take that stupid pic away and save the world a ton of wasted internet bandwidth.

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1 minute ago, Shortforbob said:

You mean the ones with boats? 

You can find those on boats, cars, houses, trailers, mobile homes...

...and more importantly you find that message in people's hearts and minds.

Pissing off half the population isn't really a reason to vote that lends itself to harmonious resolution.

I support universal healthcare because it helps everyone, especially those with less. NOT because it's going to make Republican heads explode.

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Just now, bacq2bacq said:

Is anyone else around here sick and fucking tired of looking at BJ's Hallberg-Rassey?

If you were actually an environmentalist, BJ, you'd take that stupid pic away and save the world a ton of wasted internet bandwidth.

Killing too many e-trees for you?

It's not a tenth as bad as Da-Woody's animated raccoons, but it does seem to set off the mouth breathers so you may have a point in these delicate times.

Of course, I blocked the racoon footers long before I blocked Da-Woody, something which is easy to do - block only one person's footers.

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1 minute ago, bacq2bacq said:

Is anyone else around here sick and fucking tired of looking at BJ's Hallberg-Rassey?

If you were actually an environmentalist, BJ, you'd take that stupid pic away and save the world a ton of wasted internet bandwidth.

 

Untitled.jpg

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4 minutes ago, Mid said:

 

Untitled.jpg

I had signatures off for years, with my limited bandwidth life. Probably should do that again.

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14 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Sure, but I was born literally on a housing estate, went to school in hand me downs. My dad's the illegitimate son of a northern Baptist coal miners daughter and my mother sewed Knickers and they both left school at 14. so there is that.

So you are a cross between ‘the son of a preacher man’ and ‘the coal miners daughter’? You should write a country and western song. I too know poverty. My father often drove us through some of the lower class suburbs in his Mercedes to teach humility. But your story is inspiring- from the welsh valleys to the latte sippers of St Kilda. Personally I would prefer the welsh valleys. Less homo’s.

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Trump will have occupied the POTUS position for 1.7 percent of the time the USA has had a President position (231 years). 

I think the country can rebound from that and even the Republican party can ‘improve’ 

People have held their noses and voted for the lesser of two evils  and their pocketbooks  

If you want to affect change the focus should be on House and Senate control where demented people spend 30-40 years in their seats  

Or people  can wring their hands from the moral high ground aboard their  yacht on a yachting website forum, forgetting the  past when it was perfectly fine for an illegal ‘darkie’  to look after their children. Just an example.  Obama’s Treasury Secretary did the same thing.  I don’t recall the outrage.  And it was his specific job to enforce laws that prohibited that sort of privileged behavior  

Ask not what your country can do for you.....

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1 hour ago, benwynn said:

That's a generalization.   I have relatives who voted for Trump, and are not remotely close to what you describe. 

Sorry Benn, but that's where you're wrong.

If, after the past 4 years they still voted for Trump then they are what he described.

You just see the polite "family" side of them.

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Aaaah... Thanks Mid.  And that's fewer homos, lonely-boy.  At least be syntactically, if not politically-correct, puhlease.

From Canada and not having a dog in this race, I just hope y'all assemble the feces and settle down some.  The noise from the neighbours can be overwhelming.

12 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I support universal healthcare because it helps everyone, especially those with less.

I actually agree.  But it is not a "right", it is a responsibility, and it takes resources, and shouldn't involve enrichening a vast vampire-class of lawyers and insurers to get it done.

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Let's see MAGA,

national debt 27 trillion and going up

Improved the health care system ? 

553000 Americans homeless and going up ( many of which are vets)

Pollution on the rise due to major cut backs in the EPA

Our Allies hate us

China trade deal signed, how's that working out?

Rich getting richer and the rest of us can fuck off, wait till either the market or housing bubble burst. or they just keep printing money?

#1 in death rate from the hoax

3rd world mentally of armed supremacist in trunks harassing American's,  looking like a picture of the Taliban

so yes MAGA is doing good

 

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16 minutes ago, bacq2bacq said:

I actually agree.  But it is not a "right", it is a responsibility, and it takes resources, and shouldn't involve enrichening a vast vampire-class of lawyers and insurers to get it done.

I think it's a right in the same sense of food, air, and water being necessary to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That doesn't mean everyone gets lobster and caviar on the government dime, but it justifies food stamps and social safety nets. Health care should not be a commercial commodity in a for-profit model.

The ACA was, at best, a cock-up, a compromise and a huge bone to health insurers. We had Republicans vowing to Fight Anything the Black Guy Did, so it didn't matter that he tried to reach out, they were going to take their ball and go home. We know now he shouldn't have bothered, but this is what we got trying to pass something we thought they'd like since it was basically a scaling up of Romneycare and derived from past GOP proposals. (NARRATOR: "But they didn't like it.")

Having managed the books for a multi-million dollar medical practice, I'm convinced that the health insurance industry is THE number one problem with health care in America. It's a leech, a vampire, inserting itself into a transaction it does not belong in and engorging itself on blood it sucks from those who need it.

This is a business that thrives on two principles:
1) Deny healthcare to patients as much as possible
2) Deny payments to providers however possible.

I'd rather have an indifferent, red-tape laden government agency involved in my healthcare decisions over a company trying to make a buck on my health and well being (or cessation thereof).

That's my problem with the ACA - at it's core it feeds the healthcare industry leech. That's why I prefer a single payer or MFA type of solution, with private healthcare available as a supplemental adjuct for the people who don't want to share the waiting room for the rest of us.

Sure, there are other problems with healthcare in America. Drug prices (and gouging) are a huge part too. As is tort liability, which drives up the cost of delivering services.

Doctor compensation has been trending down for decades, as workloads have gone up - we're facing an eventual supply of skilled healthcare providers, so I'm not sure treating them like we treat teachers is the answer there. It takes a ton of skill, training and time to become a doctor, and even before COVID there was considerable risk to health and well being from sick patients.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, bacq2bacq said:

Is anyone else around here sick and fucking tired of looking at BJ's Hallberg-Rassy?

If you were actually an environmentalist, BJ, you'd take that stupid pic away and save the world a ton of wasted internet bandwidth.

Bottom right of BJ's post is a little X. Click it.

Edit: Mid beat me to it.

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

That's the thing.

Trump...presented no real ideas. No real policy. Nothing but vague promises, handwaving, lies about his own record, and lies about Biden and Harris.

Biden's policies would literally help almost all the people who voted for Trump.

Is it possible that Trump's gamed you all?

All these distractions he created.. It's not just the Liberal thinker he's distracted. The working class and rural workingTrump supported has equally been unable to focus on the fact that he has no policy for things such as healthcare or education opportunity for their children .

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1 minute ago, Shortforbob said:
1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

That's the thing.

Trump...presented no real ideas. No real policy. Nothing but vague promises, handwaving, lies about his own record, and lies about Biden and Harris.

Biden's policies would literally help almost all the people who voted for Trump.

Is it possible that Trump's gamed you all?

All these distractions he created.. It's not just the Liberal thinker he's distracted. The working class and rural workingTrump supported has equally been unable to focus on the fact that he has no policy for things such as healthcare or education opportunity for their children .

I'm  not sure what you mean, we knew this was his strategy. He has nothing but disaster and failure to run on, and maybe one or two small accomplishments.

Lie, distort, lather, repeat. Appeal to fear and base instincts in the simplest way possible.

We just thought more Americans saw through it after four years of this nonsense.

Trump really should tell his supporters the wall is done, but it's made of invisible material. They'd count it among his accomplishments.

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3 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Is it possible that Trump's gamed you all?

All these distractions he created.. It's not just the Liberal thinker he's distracted. The working class and rural workingTrump supported has equally been unable to focus on the fact that he has no policy for things such as healthcare or education opportunity for their children .

Why would he have policies on things that don't benefit him? The point of the exercise is to make money for Trump.

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34 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

So you are a cross between ‘the son of a preacher man’ and ‘the coal miners daughter’? You should write a country and western song. I too know poverty. My father often drove us through some of the lower class suburbs in his Mercedes to teach humility. But your story is inspiring- from the welsh valleys to the latte sippers of St Kilda. Personally I would prefer the welsh valleys. Less homo’s.

Wasn't Wales, It was Maryport Cumberland. 

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5 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Is it possible that Trump's gamed you all?

All these distractions he created.. It's not just the Liberal thinker he's distracted. The working class and rural workingTrump supported has equally been unable to focus on the fact that he has no policy for things such as healthcare or education opportunity for their children .

Ahhh the quadrennial “Democrats need to listen to the forgotten man in the hinterlands speech”. A ritual win or lose.

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14 minutes ago, Not for nothing said:

Let's see MAGA,

national debt 27 trillion and going up

Improved the health care system ? 

553000 Americans homeless and going up ( many of which are vets)

Pollution on the rise due to major cut backs in the EPA

Our Allies hate us

China trade deal signed, how's that working out?

Rich getting richer and the rest of us can fuck off, wait till either the market or housing bubble burst. or they just keep printing money?

#1 in death rate from the hoax

3rd world mentally of armed supremacist in trunks harassing American's,  looking like a picture of the Taliban

so yes MAGA is doing good

 

Not true.  I think Brazil likes us. 

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Oooh..while we're chewing the gristle over here, Michigan's gone officially blue again. 

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18 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I think [healthcare's] a right in the same sense of food...

I have to stop you right there, BJ.  Food is *definitely* not a right, it is a good, and this is where many who think they can do good go off the rails, and perhaps enrage their opponents, simply by using the wrong words.  I happen to think that in any civilized society those with excess should provide some level of support for the truly disadvantaged.  Like give them enough food to eat.  It's not their right, but it is our responsibilty.

I think the major problem downstairs is that y'all are so politicized, you are beyond thinking clearly, on any side of the big issues.

18 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I'm convinced that the health insurance industry is THE number one problem with health care in America.

^^^This.  We have, I suppose, "universal health care" in Canada.  We all have an equal opportunity to die while waiting in pain for our hip-replacement surgery (true story, met her in the ICU, her husband had died, she had nowhere to go, and I sat and talked to her for hours).  In fact we have a multi-tiered system where if you have enough money you can buy the expensive drugs, fly to the 'States for your surgery etc.  I just wish my government would recognize the fact, and to allow our doctors the freedom of choice to operate within either public or private systems.  Yes, the care given the poor would be inferior to that bought by the rich.  And that's ok.  We must leave the incentives for self-improvement in place.

Fixing your health-care system would go a long way to making America great again.