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LionessRacing

building a door: which gets tongue/groove ?

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Wine cellar has progressed through the loading of 50 cases of wine, and time to put a door on it. 

I'm using "1x2" select" S4S stock as I don't have a joiner or planer to cut down from as sawn. 

Door is about 34" wide, and 40" tall:

Plan to use the 1.5" net dimension in the plane of the door, and the 3/4" net thickness to make the door with a 1/4" birch plywood skin for a total of 1". 

on the corner joints I plan to use a Tongue and groove, cut by a Dado with a table saw, first the groove using a 1/4" width cut and then a 1/4" depth to cut the tongue on the other pieces. 

Detail question: 

which gets the groove and which the tongue ? 

One argument is that it doesn't matter.

Experience in other realms suggests it might. A few online sources say groove the stile and tongue the rail.  (rails are horizontal) 

  1. Groove the verticals or horizontals: and why ? 
  2. How deep a groove, and therefore long a tongue? 

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I'd go with 1/4" splines, grooving each board on both sides, by 1/2"(Except for the outer two) and use your 1/4" ply as the splines, Then put horizontal battens near the top, the bottom, and where the latch will be, with full height battens on both outside edges. That gives you a nominal 1 1/2" edge to hang hinges and latches on, and your expansion/contraction will be pretty much limited to the width. 1/4" ply skin on a solid wood door is just asking for a warped, wreck and replacement situation.

 I did this for my wine cellar in New England, where the temp, and humidity fluctuations from spring, to summer, to winter were extreme. I had to trim the door the first spring, but after that, it was fine. It also had a half round or arched top, which looked nice, and helped distract from the inconsistent reveals around the door...... Not that many people knew it was there, but it was a nice feature for the RE agent to point out....

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.... OH! DON'T finish the inside of your wine cellar! Leave it raw wood. The fumes from a finish will infiltrate the cork, and contaminate your wine. (Unless you only have screw tops)

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29 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Wine cellar has progressed through the loading of 50 cases of wine, and time to put a door on it. 

I'm using "1x2" select" S4S stock as I don't have a joiner or planer to cut down from as sawn. 

Door is about 34" wide, and 40" tall:

 

50 cases and a 3 foot door. I'd be nervous about having to crawl in to get the last out.

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Hold on..... 40" tall? That's not a wine cellar, that's a wine dungeon!

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I'd go with the MrLeft8 suggestion.  I did it once, by mistake, grooving both sides.  Doh!  Too much rum, I expect. 

But a piece of good dense ¼" hardwood glued and banged into both grooves made it all work pretty well.  Marine ply would be better.

A helpful tip would be to make the door slightly oversize so you can plane off the inevitable ugly bits to make it fit.

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The only thing I'd add is to make sure you don't lock a twist into the door when you glue the ply panel to it.   Make darn sure it's flat.

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The door is to the cellar built under the landing on the 1st -2nd floor stairs, and is constrained by the 60" height of the landing, the joists to support the landing, and the baseboard in front of it. It might more properly be called a Hatch, or cabinet door. here's the starting photo:

 IMG_3505.thumb.jpg.89a16fb64e02c8f20ffd027ae0b8cf4e.jpg

Since the wife's intention was to have this be "hidden" the door will appear from the living room to be the back of a "hall tree", something like what is as shown in example below, using the bench from above 

 Salina Hall Tree

with molding that carries decorative coat/hat pegs, and a removeable "shoe bench" in front of it for disguise. 

Which is why it doesn't extend to the floor, but has a stepover at the baseboard. 

As such the 1/4" ply will not be a "panel" inset into the frame, but be a skin on the front face of the frame, butting into the moldings that frame the casing to hide the door, with the "SOSS" invisible hinges (see other thread) mortised into the jamb and stile. 

Points about allowing for humidity fluctuation to avoid twist are well meant, but as a wine cellar, it's supposed to be temperature and humidity stable, to avoid pumping the corks with a temperature and vapor differential. (We had a small winery in Santa Clara Valley for 7 years, the 50 cases are our "library") As the house is Air conditioned, and the wife doesn't like temperature/humidity swings, we will pay the power bill and the furniture/furnishings etc will be less subject to wrack and ruin. 

 

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13 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Wine cellar has progressed through the loading of 50 cases of wine, and time to put a door on it. 

I'm using "1x2" select" S4S stock as I don't have a joiner or planer to cut down from as sawn. 

Door is about 34" wide, and 40" tall:

Plan to use the 1.5" net dimension in the plane of the door, and the 3/4" net thickness to make the door with a 1/4" birch plywood skin for a total of 1". 

on the corner joints I plan to use a Tongue and groove, cut by a Dado with a table saw, first the groove using a 1/4" width cut and then a 1/4" depth to cut the tongue on the other pieces. 

Detail question: 

which gets the groove and which the tongue ? 

One argument is that it doesn't matter.

Experience in other realms suggests it might. A few online sources say groove the stile and tongue the rail.  (rails are horizontal) 

  1. Groove the verticals or horizontals: and why ? 
  2. How deep a groove, and therefore long a tongue? 

The thing you have to look out for in making a door is racking.  A mortise and tenor is better than tongue and groove because it offers a shoulder that helps prevent racking. 
MT_Door_001.jpg.725734506dbed3647a3df8ac55d94dbd.jpg

The better constructed doors have tenons that go through the full width of the stile.  Some drive a wedge in from the outside to further strengthen the joint.
MT_Door_wedge_001.jpg.a2575b64390fe734559063318f9642a9.jpg

The location and height of your door leave it open for someone to lean on the edge when the door is open.  A shallow T&G could fail.  If you don't have chisels to chop out a mortise, you could add dowels to your T&G construction - the longer, the better.  Just drill dowel holes before milling the T&G.
StileRailDowel.jpg.a9ac167d7c26b3165783e71e6ba5690f.jpg 

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55 minutes ago, Jules said:

The location and height of your door leave it open for someone to lean on the edge when the door is open. 

Door swings inwards, so this won't be a concern, but the mortise & tenon is a good point. 

 

48 minutes ago, Mr Moab said:

Wine under stairs = vibration. Not great for wines you plan to cellar longer. 

Wine is sitting on concrete slab, not touching the walls, inverted in carboard cases or laid flat on metal racking. I have not measured the vibration that is transmitted through the staircase and slab. I have measured the acoustic noise on the third floor where the air handlers are, and it's not bad. The compressors for the HVAC are ~ 20 ft away on a separate pad. 

If we were in a house with a live floor that might be more of a concern due to resonance. 

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1 hour ago, Jules said:

The thing you have to look out for in making a door is racking.  A mortise and tenor is better than tongue and groove because it offers a shoulder that helps prevent racking. 
 


 

In Focus: 'Pavarotti' has limited range - The Boston Globe:ph34r:

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"cope and stick" is extremely common for cabinet doors. Very few full m/t because it takes a lot of work. 

I'd go wider than 1 1/2 " for your frame, as every 1x2 I've ever seen twists up in a hurry. Think species too, and dry it where it's gonna be for as long as possible if it's crap from a big-box store. 

I'd also skin the back - i.e. making a stress-skin panel (like an interior slab door) and really the panel will be what controls racking ('cause it's a skin, not an inset panel into a groove like typical cabinetry will be.)

Since we're talking about a stress-skin panel, you may also consider taking a big-box 34" slab interior door and cutting it down. You'll need to reglue the bottom frame in, but it may be a time-saver if I understand you're going to cover the outside anyway. 

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Rail usually gets the male component, because there's a tendency for a single central tongue to peel off a stile.

That said, a 1/4" T&G or spline offers so little glue surface & mechanical racking resistance, it's hardly worth setting up for. (I won't even make cabinet doors cope&stick because the typical 3/8" stub tenons are so weak.)

THAT said, you are halfway to a really good design that renders the whole corner joinery question moot. Core box that door! If you can tolerate a 1.25" finished thickness, just skin both sides of your 1x2 frame with ply; you can use fancy joinery on the internal 'web', or no joinery at all. Just butt the pine frame together, glue, maybe air nail the skins on, and clamp well around the perimeter. Can stuff a stick or a block or three in the middle to support the plywood spans, or to deal with any hardware like latch sets.. Core box (or 'torsion box') doors are light, quick to build, and tend to stay flat. The skins do all the structural work; frame exists only to hold those skins apart. You can also fill the interior space with foam board for insulation.

Edit: just saw gptyk cross-posted same advice, but sooner.

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31 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

you coude of gone withe Placebo Domingo to..............

Domingo-Placido-03.jpg

:)

what about the other guy?

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On 11/5/2020 at 11:46 AM, gptyk said:

"cope and stick" is extremely common for cabinet doors. Very few full m/t because it takes a lot of work. 

I'd go wider than 1 1/2 " for your frame, as every 1x2 I've ever seen twists up in a hurry. Think species too, and dry it where it's gonna be for as long as possible if it's crap from a big-box store. 

I'd also skin the back - i.e. making a stress-skin panel (like an interior slab door) and really the panel will be what controls racking ('cause it's a skin, not an inset panel into a groove like typical cabinetry will be.)

Since we're talking about a stress-skin panel, you may also consider taking a big-box 34" slab interior door and cutting it down. You'll need to reglue the bottom frame in, but it may be a time-saver if I understand you're going to cover the outside anyway. 

I had thought about that, but with the 3/4" true frame dimension and the SOSS 208 wanting a 1" door, putting a skin on the front made the dimensions work. 

I could rabbet the rails and stiles on the inside and lay in a recessed 1/4" skin that should do the "monocoque" stress handling. 

 

S

 

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Or use 1/8 (5mm?) door skins. unless that 1/4 face is the beadboard you showed in a pic.. 

But with skins both sides you'll get a flatter product, and you can just ignore the joinery.  Butt joints in the frame would be fine. 

 

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On 11/5/2020 at 6:05 AM, LionessRacing said:

The door is to the cellar built under the landing on the 1st -2nd floor stairs, and is constrained by the 60" height of the landing, the joists to support the landing, and the baseboard in front of it. It might more properly be called a Hatch, or cabinet door. here's the starting photo:

 IMG_3505.thumb.jpg.89a16fb64e02c8f20ffd027ae0b8cf4e.jpg

 

 

50 cases?

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On 11/5/2020 at 6:05 AM, LionessRacing said:

 

 IMG_3505.thumb.jpg.89a16fb64e02c8f20ffd027ae0b8cf4e.jpg

 

  

 

 

 

1 hour ago, warbird said:

50 cases?

 

1 hour ago, LionessRacing said:

Had a winery 2009-2016. 

In that cubbyhole?

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23 minutes ago, warbird said:

 

 

In that cubbyhole? 

Case is 9” wide, 12” high & long , stack 4 up under 53” ceiling under landing, taller under upper flight. (It’s not OSHA compliant.) 
8x8’ = 64 ft^2 with case, 2.5  ’ aisle, case, case, 2.5’ aisle, case or maximum 4 rows of 8 cases average 4 high. > 100 cs. 

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Working on replacing a T&G deck currently due to rot. The original boards were installed, then painted over on top.  Current methodology is to prime the boards and T&G both sides, paint the boards and T&G both sides before installation.

Slowed things down a bit to do this, but I believe it will make it last much longer.

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26 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Case is 9” wide, 12” high & long , stack 4 up under 53” ceiling under landing, taller under upper flight. (It’s not OSHA compliant.) 
8x8’ = 64 ft^2 with case, 2.5  ’ aisle, case, case, 2.5’ aisle, case or maximum 4 rows of 8 cases average 4 high. > 100 cs. 

I guess it seems like you will have to sort through cases.  That is good.  I hope you don't overlook a case in the back after it's time.  I am no enophile but there is nothing worse than a fine Boones Farm Appleberry that has turned.:D

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2 hours ago, warbird said:

I guess it seems like you will have to sort through cases.  That is good.  I hope you don't overlook a case in the back after it's time.  I am no enophile but there is nothing worse than a fine Boones Farm Appleberry that has turned.:D

Hey now. As someone who grew up one mile downwind of the Boones Hill Farm factory, I can aver the formaldehyde keeps it shelf stable for decades. Nothing like watching rail cars of raw ethanol unload at the dock to stir a 15 yr old alcoholic' s soul.

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7 hours ago, warbird said:

I guess it seems like you will have to sort through cases.  That is good.  I hope you don't overlook a case in the back after it's time.  I am no enophile but there is nothing worse than a fine Boones Farm Appleberry that has turned.:D

We have them sorted already, all cases accessible, partials on top. Regarding Boones Farm, your experience exceeds my own. These are mostly Bordeaux/Rhone blends and a whole lot of Pinot. Bottled at 100-200ppm sulfates. Should be good for decades. The whites are not archival, the Chardonnay is peaking now at 5-10 yrs. 

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1 hour ago, LionessRacing said:

We have them sorted already, all cases accessible, partials on top. Regarding Boones Farm, your experience exceeds my own. These are mostly Bordeaux/Rhone blends and a whole lot of Pinot. Bottled at 100-200ppm sulfates. Should be good for decades. The whites are not archival, the Chardonnay is peaking now at 5-10 yrs. 

You owned a winery so I am probably not telling you anything you don't know.  But I will say it anyway, perhaps those with little knowledge of wine can learn something.

Aging wine is not only dependent on the level of sulfate as a preservative but is mostly dependent on the quality of the grape used to make the wine.  If you have a low acid, low tannin wine, it will die young no matter what.  There is a good reason that very few white wines are capable of long term aging.  Good Chardonnay, Riesling, Champagne and high sugar/high acid dessert wines are a few exceptions.  Needless to say, a good closure (cork or Stelvin screw cap) is critical as well.

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Aging wine to its “peak” is a bit different than protecting & preserving wine to avoid deterioration. insufficient sulfates and filtration along with less pristine sanitation (aka manual bottling) will lead to reduced life before volatile acids 


The tannins, poly phenols and more subtle flavors are integrated by reaction with micro-oxygenation. Wooden barrels and corks are classic examples. You can use oxygen injection into a stainless or glass vessel, and add oak staves for reacting surface and flavors. 
(the species and toast matter too) while making it, your supermarket brands are made in mega liter tanks that way  

Regarding closures: with a zero porosity cap, the wine does not receive any additional oxygen. 
Depending on the cork’s  length, headspace, cork type (virgin, pressed from chips, hybrid) you get different diffusion rates. Large & small bottles have different volume to cork area ratios and age at different rates. 

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