Waltonsmith

Hydra Net vs 3Di

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No debate. No one in their right mind would recommend Hydranet over 3di. Price is the only metric where the debate might favor Hydranet , and that depends on your price sensitivity. 

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Agreed, in a racing scenario this comparison really is pretty one-sided (apart from the cost). I'm intrigued how it came down to these two options?? 

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I ruled Hydranet out on my cruising cat. I think for a racing purposes you can debate Doyle’s Stratis vs 3di. But Hydranet isn’t really great for cruising, and it’s worthless for racing. 

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My decision will be upon data.   Comparison with data between the 2, admitted, very different types of sail.

Price for an 800 sq. ft. main?  ie. $10k vs.$20k?

Weight aloft?  

Maintain shape over time?

Airflow data?

Used in 10-15, 30+ mile Pacific Ocean races a year.
 

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1 hour ago, Waltonsmith said:

My decision will be upon data.   Comparison with data between the 2, admitted, very different types of sail.

Price for an 800 sq. ft. main?  ie. $10k vs.$20k?

Weight aloft?  

Maintain shape over time?

Airflow data?

Used in 10-15, 30+ mile Pacific Ocean races a year.
 

How many races do you expect to get from them and do you expect to win or just participate?

How do you handle the sails between sailings?  Rolled or flaked storage--the resins will degrade differently depending on storage.  

To get a good comparison of costs, ask your sailmaker.  Same-same for weights.  

Shape maintenance is literally in the eye of the beholder.  Airflow data is meaningless unless you want to know how much flutter the edges can take before they fall apart.

Laminate sailcloth typically get better race results; woven sailcloth typically get better endurance.  The wovens with dyneema reinforcements are typically not oriented to reduce stretch perfectly (woven, right) and also suffer resin breakdown quicker.  

 

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7 hours ago, soma said:

I ruled Hydranet out on my cruising cat. I think for a racing purposes you can debate Doyle’s Stratis vs 3di. But Hydranet isn’t really great for cruising, and it’s worthless for racing. 

What did you get?  Hydranet seemed to be the consensus in your Best Sailcloth thread.

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14 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

What did you get?  Hydranet seemed to be the consensus in your Best Sailcloth thread.

North’s NorLam. Gray taffeta with Aramid. Great shape holding up the wind range. Looks good. Too soon to tell on longevity. Main, jib, and screecher. 

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Hydranet is essentially a woven polyester with a small amount of Dyneema added. This creates a dilemma in finishing the fabric because the Dyneema melts at a temperature below that at which normal woven dacron experiences in the finishing process. Shrink is a big part of the dacron finish process and serves to tighten the weave before any resin is applied. Hydranet is loosely woven and without shrink, all that is left is to spread on a thick layer of resin to stabilize the material which can be seen in this photo:

image.png.75cbc81cd9a4c1527da10fd3f510277d.png

The resin adds significant weight and makes the material stiff until it breaks down, and when it breaks down, the sail shape will change for the worse. 

3Di will make a stronger and lighter sail than Hydranet for similar money depending on which 3Di product you look at. 3Di can be all poly or blends of poly / aramid, poly / dyneema, aramid / dyneema or aramid, dyneema and carbon.  You won't find any Hydranet in the IMOCA fleet but you will find a lot of 3Di.

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That really is odd!

I started SDI in 2004 as a consultancy/design resource primarily multihull related.

In that time, of the boats equipped with HydraNet wardrobes, - Brown 34, Hughes 40, Burrage 40, Newick 35, two Farrier 39's, TRT 1200, Lady Hawk 37 and an Aerorigged Crowther 30 - not one of those sails has been replaced, few ever even repaired, whilst the laminates I specified for their perceived racing advantage, are mostly shot.

In particular, the subject of this discussion is about to replace her second suit of laminates, which I had advised against, never having reached her performance potential with those often rebuilt sails.

I well recall a very lengthy conversation with Tim Woodhouse, owner of Hood sails, who insisted that woven Spectra could never work - problem is HydraNet does work.

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Our working jib is HydraNet and has seen over 60kn winds gusts with steady 45 kn going to windward at 45 AWA for up to 350 miles at a stretch (furled to third vertical batten) and about 14,000 off shore miles The sail performs absolutely as well now as when it was new. I call bullshit on the claims about it going soft with fillers degrading.. Our HydraNet mainsail is similar.

I have found that North will cast dispersions upon anything made with DP HydraNet. This may be the source of some of the negative opinions. I have to say that ten yesra ago I sailed on a 50' boat outfitted with North's predecessor to 3DI. These sails showed issues after only a few races and were near worthless after one years campaign. When problems showed up only days of sailing into the new sails life.... North would do nothing other than spot repairs to the $16,000 mainsail. I have since had little faith in the follow-thru of this company. The fact that North will dish DP , means little to me.

I am sure that the high end 3DI will hold a better shape for racing but I have little faith in their longevity compared to HydraNet. During the past three years of off-shore sailing (as we work our way slowly around the world) we do run into the occasional 'cruising boat' with HydraNet sails and every single one has been satisfied with their choice. 

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I was told that 3Di shrinks 5-10% when not in use (like stored t the loft)  for a year. Any experience with that?

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It definitely seems like pretty much every sailmaker I've talked to really tries to discourage hydranet, but every boat owner I've met who has it loves it - maybe different standards of shape-holding and performance?

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14 minutes ago, hdra said:

It definitely seems like pretty much every sailmaker I've talked to really tries to discourage hydranet, but every boat owner I've met who has it loves it - maybe different standards of shape-holding and performance?

If everybody's sails (or anything) lasted forever that wouldn't be particularly good for the people trying to sell new ones from time to time...

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The question asked was:

On 11/8/2020 at 11:28 AM, Waltonsmith said:

How does Hydra Net compare with North's 3di laminate for a racing trimaran?

I don’t think you’ll see any Hydranet in the Imoca fleet and that sorta says it all. Taken at face value, the question has one answer. 3di. Add other factors to the question (longevity/value/etc) though, and the answer can change. 
 

I think everyone can agree that the flying shape on the best day in a Hydranet sail’s life will be worse than the worst day of a 3di sail. I’ve had the stitching fail (from old age) on all the corners of a 3di sail and the shape was still pristine. 

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What is IMOCA?  How about ORMA?  Mod70 fleet use North 3di?  

The leasee of "Lending Tree" said in a lecture that weight aloft is insignificant compared with durability.

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7 minutes ago, Waltonsmith said:

What is IMOCA?  How about ORMA?  Mod70 fleet use North 3di?  

The leasee of "Lending Tree" said in a lecture that weight aloft is insignificant compared with durability.

The Vendée Glove fleet is the Imoca fleet. I doubt you’d find anything but 3di on the MODs. Doyle’s product is close to 3di. 
 

 

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I have tri-radial Hydranet on my 48' cat. It's now 8 years old and the shape is pretty shit. The genoa isn't too bad, but the top half of the main is massively blown out. The fabric itself looks to be in good condition and I have no doubt they'd still be holding together in another 8 years. All of that said, I've been told the maker of my sails doesn't put enough reinforcement into the load paths from the reefing points and that is why the shape blows out so badly. 

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For a RACING boat I wouldn't pick Hydranet. I would pick 3Di or similar.

But for cruising I found our HN Genoa had very good shape holding after 1 lap. It was built with 383 fabric which was quite heavy ( suitable for a #1 on a 50-55' boat) for a 40' cat. 

The crosscut HN biased fabrics were shit with very little Spectra in the weave. Only the HN fabrics designed for tri radial cuts had lots more Spectra.

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The mainsail on my proa just got replaced after 26 years of hard use. It was made from Dimension square weave dacron. It still looked pretty good, believe it or not.

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For racing? Like others have said, no comparison. Hydranet is a cruising product, it's even listed as such on DP's site. If these two are your options, go with 3Di.

In fact, I'd say go with 3Di regardless of what the options are if you can afford it. I have yet to see anyone make a compelling argument against 3Di except price but I'm no expert on the subject myself.

Edit: Upon re-reading my post it sounded a bit snarky so I'll add this: If you only need, say, 70 or 80% of the performance of 3Di there are a lot of more cost-effective options out there but if you need 100% of the performance of 3Di (the shape holding, light weight and (relatively) long lifespan) then as far as I'm aware there is nothing that can match it.

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On 11/14/2020 at 10:01 PM, EarthBM said:

I was told that 3Di shrinks 5-10% when not in use (like stored t the loft)  for a year. Any experience with that?

I think maybe you're thinking about dyneema shrinkage? Though I don't think that would happen when the sail is just in storage. I could be wrong though. Maybe if they were stored at very high temperatures? But then I think film sails would be affected as well so I don't think anyone would store sails like that (on purpose at least).

After dyneema is put under load and that load is released the material shrinks. From what I've read, in 3Di sails this is kept from happening by either carbon or aramid fibers providing a resistance to this compression. If, however, the carbon fibers are broken (from, say, excessive flogging) or the aramid is damaged somehow (e.g. from excessive sheer forces like in the case of Dongfeng's main after their mast snapped) then there is nothing keeping the dyneema fibers from shrinking which can result in a wrinkly sail where the damage is.

Typically this is an indication that the "high performance" life of the sail in question is over but many people retire those sails to become training sails instead since usually this wrinkling is localized (at the leech for the carbon/dyneema sails and the area that suffered sheer damage in the aramid/dyneema sails) and the rest of the sail has lots of life left.

Source for some of my rambling: https://www.volvooceanrace.com/static/assets/content_v2/media/files/m39399_dongfeng-3di-mainsail-damage-inspection.pdf

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I think a lot of people are overlooking the fact that 3Di is not a laminated product - in it's simplest RAW (racing) form it's a homogenous membrane of just filaments and resin. Some versions have a taffeta applied to each side for extra longevity. Any comparison to traditional laminates and their associated issues is not correct to make.

There was a lot of hesitation over 3Di when it first came out - primarily based on the issues it's predecessor 3DL had (this was a laminate structure). Pretty much everyone who's experienced it across the racing, superyacht and cruising spectrum has only good to things to say about it - yes there is often a cost factor compared to other sailmakers but these alternative offerings will be laminates or paneled sails.

Given the 3D shape molding and the membrane construction I really don't think there can be any comparison between HydraNet and 3Di especially in the context of race sails - they are at such different ends of the spectrum. Closer comparisons are Doyle Stratis (Doyle also have very interesting options with their structured luff technology for headsails) and possibly the laminate tech that Incidence Sails bought from DP and developed into their DFi range which are still used by some of the IMOCA teams including Arkea Paprec...

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8 hours ago, Tylo said:

I think maybe you're thinking about dyneema shrinkage? Though I don't think that would happen when the sail is just in storage. I could be wrong though. Maybe if they were stored at very high temperatures? But then I think film sails would be affected as well so I don't think anyone would store sails like that (on purpose at least).

After dyneema is put under load and that load is released the material shrinks. From what I've read, in 3Di sails this is kept from happening by either carbon or aramid fibers providing a resistance to this compression. If, however, the carbon fibers are broken (from, say, excessive flogging) or the aramid is damaged somehow (e.g. from excessive sheer forces like in the case of Dongfeng's main after their mast snapped) then there is nothing keeping the dyneema fibers from shrinking which can result in a wrinkly sail where the damage is.

Typically this is an indication that the "high performance" life of the sail in question is over but many people retire those sails to become training sails instead since usually this wrinkling is localized (at the leech for the carbon/dyneema sails and the area that suffered sheer damage in the aramid/dyneema sails) and the rest of the sail has lots of life left.

Source for some of my rambling: https://www.volvooceanrace.com/static/assets/content_v2/media/files/m39399_dongfeng-3di-mainsail-damage-inspection.pdf

Thanks for posting this-- really interesting insight into the behaviour of the 3DI laminates.  Was fascinating to read that in the damaged area the resin was "shatttered" and that you could pull the tapes apart by hand.   I Seems like this kind of damage would be less likely  in a sail with full length fibers.  Also wondering if the shattering is a downside of the particular resin used for 3DI, or if that is a universal damage mode for resins used in sail construction. 

Also interesting to read about the compementary characteristics of Dyneema and the aramid.   Did not know about the shrinkage in dyneema-- had only ever heard about creep.

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8 hours ago, NZK said:

I think a lot of people are overlooking the fact that 3Di is not a laminated product - in it's simplest RAW (racing) form it's a homogenous membrane of just filaments and resin. 

I always saw 3DI as a single membrane too.

Interesting then that the North article sighted above says this....

 

"Secondary Bond Risk: While the track record for 3Di section splices is very good, there is always a risk
with secondary bonds, specifically with the integrity of the used laminate under the bond. The
concern that all parties should be aware of is that there is no way to prepare the edge of the used sail to
achieve a tapered scarf joint as is used in the construction of new 3Di sails. The bond will be to only one
layer of the laminate
(similar to a lap joint). That layer can potentially peel away from the rest of the
used sail
"

"The areas circled in blue above show evidence of sheering inside the laminate stack."

 

So North still likes to call it a Laminated sail and this creates some confusion. It also sounds like it breaks down along sheer lines like a laminate (even though homogenous) And... I don't like the bit about how 20,000 miles of sailing on the main sail renders it (even as a cruising sail) essentialy spent and beyond repair;  I do not (for my poart and on our boat) consider 20,000 miles an acceptable life for a cruising mainsail!

 

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9 hours ago, NZK said:

I think a lot of people are overlooking the fact that 3Di is not a laminated product - in it's simplest RAW (racing) form it's a homogenous membrane of just filaments and resin. Some versions have a taffeta applied to each side for extra longevity. Any comparison to traditional laminates and their associated issues is not correct to make.

There was a lot of hesitation over 3Di when it first came out - primarily based on the issues it's predecessor 3DL had (this was a laminate structure). Pretty much everyone who's experienced it across the racing, superyacht and cruising spectrum has only good to things to say about it - yes there is often a cost factor compared to other sailmakers but these alternative offerings will be laminates or paneled sails.

Given the 3D shape molding and the membrane construction I really don't think there can be any comparison between HydraNet and 3Di especially in the context of race sails - they are at such different ends of the spectrum. Closer comparisons are Doyle Stratis (Doyle also have very interesting options with their structured luff technology for headsails) and possibly the laminate tech that Incidence Sails bought from DP and developed into their DFi range which are still used by some of the IMOCA teams including Arkea Paprec...

As amazing as the tech may be, it still looks like a sail made of Tyvek....

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10 hours ago, 2flit said:

So North still likes to call it a Laminated sail and this creates some confusion. It also sounds like it breaks down along sheer lines like a laminate (even though homogenous) And... I don't like the bit about how 20,000 miles of sailing on the main sail renders it (even as a cruising sail) essentialy spent and beyond repair;  I do not (for my poart and on our boat) consider 20,000 miles an acceptable life for a cruising mainsail!

Hmm, North seem to mixing their own descriptions, this is off their website in the '3Di explainer' section...

…is not a laminate! The key difference is composites are materials combined to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. Composite construction is different than lamination where a substrate (such as mylar) is used to carry adhesives and materials. 3Di sails are composed strictly of spread filaments and thermoset resin. 3Di is stronger, lighter and more resistant to environmental factors than laminate string sails.

I think the lamination reference is to the situation where they are building superyacht/supermaxi sails that are too big for the 3D molds to be made in one piece. You can see these on pics of the J-Class headsails etc. I know that early on there were some issues with big superyacht sails that failed at these joins. I don't think the issue of the scarf join laminates in sails that are too big for the single mold is going to be a direct issue for many SA posters....?

I'd not seen the reference to a 20,000 mile limit - I've repaired tears on a Gunboat 3Di mainsail that had done back to back Caribbean - New England - Carib - Med seasons so I reckon they had more than 20,000 under their belt. The repair was behind one of the luff sliders that wasn't properly tensioned and was causing shear/torsion loading on a particular point on the sail - more of  set-up error than sail failure. 

 

9 hours ago, Raz'r said:

As amazing as the tech may be, it still looks like a sail made of Tyvek....

I think the 3Di Raw (the black carbon ones) look great on full-gas race boats (TPs, maxi72s) - I'll admit to not always being a fan of the aesthetics when they're used on more classic/cruiser styled boats but it's a really impressive piece of technology - much like Doyle's structured luff, I've not had much of a chance to play with these firsthand but the sails look very fucking cool and the flying shapes are really interesting. 

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16 hours ago, Vincent DePillis said:

Was fascinating to read that in the damaged area the resin was "shatttered" and that you could pull the tapes apart by hand.   I Seems like this kind of damage would be less likely  in a sail with full length fibers.  Also wondering if the shattering is a downside of the particular resin used for 3DI, or if that is a universal damage mode for resins used in sail construction.

I highly doubt any other sail construction would fare better in those conditions. From my experience and from what I've been told by my local sailmaker, the fact that 3Di breaks in such a clean way is a big advantage when it comes to repairing the sail since (normally) the area right next to the break is unaffected by it.

I've had a film sail fail on me where a few fibers didn't fail but instead got pulled through the film creating some very strange deformations which made it very difficult to get a smooth finish on the repair, so I while I think sail breakage is never good news, it seems easier to fix a torn 3Di sail than a torn film sail, in my experience anyway.

With regards to the shattering, that part of the sail was flogging in the southern ocean. I think the fact that only 15-20 cm of the sail was catastrophically damaged after being exposed to that is a testament to 3Di rather than a point against it. 

15 hours ago, 2flit said:

And... I don't like the bit about how 20,000 miles of sailing on the main sail renders it (even as a cruising sail) essentialy spent and beyond repair;  I do not (for my poart and on our boat) consider 20,000 miles an acceptable life for a cruising mainsail!

I think you are misrepresenting North here, deliberate or not. The piece of the document you are misquoting is clearly referring to the section labeled "Plan A" where they talk about how splicing a brand new upper section to a lower section that has done 20,000 ocean miles isn't a great idea. Partly because the shape holding will differ between the two parts but mainly because the repair would be above the third reef and as such might be exposed to gale-force winds. At no point do they say a sail is done after 20,000 miles. Recall all the fuzz that was made about Thomas Coville setting a circumnavigation world record with a main that had already done two laps of the planet.

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Aren't 3Di sails still impermeable, like laminate? So they collect swimming pools and breed pond life, as laminated sails do? That alone would keep me away from them for cruising. There is a vast difference between racing and cruising applications, not the least of which is the racer wants a still  excellent shape by the end of the season, the cruiser wants a decent shape by the end of the decade. 

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20 hours ago, DDW said:

Aren't 3Di sails still impermeable, like laminate? So they collect swimming pools and breed pond life, as laminated sails do? That alone would keep me away from them for cruising. There is a vast difference between racing and cruising applications, not the least of which is the racer wants a still  excellent shape by the end of the season, the cruiser wants a decent shape by the end of the decade. 

FWIW, my Hydranet does trap water, which is fun when raising the sail if I’ve forgotten to empty it out

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Dacron sailcloth traps water too, but not forever. Some pools after a night's rain are inevitable. Does Hydranet trap a pool forever, like a couple of months? I'd assume (and had been told) similar to dacron as it is woven the same way. My Stratis laminate sails are horrible in this regard, resulting in many large pools of water that will sit there until the sail is raised. In seasonal waters that could be six months. You can grow quite a large ecosystem in 6 months, or even 2. In addition, no effective cleaning methods are allowed on laminate - may not be true for 3Di. Dacron sails will allow the water to seep out, even if it takes a day or two. 

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We don't have those issues but we have a very well-made and worked stack-pack. Maybe that could be the solution to your problems?
Snug fit around the mast, lots of mesh for ventilation underneath, zipper on the side (with a cover over it) rather than on top and internal "battens" with lazy jacks attaching to external sown-on webbing rather than having the "battens" on top (which can create a kind of gully for water to collect in). It's Sunbrella so good quality from the start but we also treat it with 303 Fabric Guard once a year and the result is our main stays dry as a bone when not in use.

Might be worth considering even though it can cost a bit, I've been drenched by mains too many times myself in the past (which is what led me to seek out this stack pack).

That being said, our main never goes unused for as much as six months; two or three weeks at most but then we do get a lot of rain here as well.

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3 hours ago, Tylo said:

We don't have those issues but we have a very well-made and worked stack-pack. Maybe that could be the solution to your problems?
Snug fit around the mast, lots of mesh for ventilation underneath, zipper on the side (with a cover over it) rather than on top and internal "battens" with lazy jacks attaching to external sown-on webbing rather than having the "battens" on top (which can create a kind of gully for water to collect in). It's Sunbrella so good quality from the start but we also treat it with 303 Fabric Guard once a year and the result is our main stays dry as a bone when not in use.

Do you have a picture?

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On 11/18/2020 at 9:22 AM, Max Rockatansky said:

FWIW, my Hydranet does trap water, which is fun when raising the sail if I’ve forgotten to empty it out

My Ullman laminate main certainly traps water - nice cold shower at the gooseneck! We tend to lift the boom and drain it after a day of heavy rain. Gets 80%.

We're in Antigua at long last - On Monday will rendezvous with our new 3Di main which we ordered in January! Looking forward.....

 

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16 hours ago, EarthBM said:

Do you have a picture?

I don't have any very detailed pictures sadly but I've asked the sailmaker, they should have some.

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6 hours ago, CapDave said:

My Ullman laminate main certainly traps water - nice cold shower at the gooseneck! We tend to lift the boom and drain it after a day of heavy rain. Gets 80%.

We're in Antigua at long last - On Monday will rendezvous with our new 3Di main which we ordered in January! Looking forward.....

 

How many miles/years did you have on the Ullman main?

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My main is in a Stackpack, made by Doyle from Sunbrella. It does have a zipper in the middle and the gully in the stackpack tends to trap some water. I'd be interested in seeing how a side zipper can be made - it isn't obvious to me how you would do this. In a small mainsail, sure but I'm having trouble seeing it in a large one. Not sure what you mean by internal battens. 

Ventilation will do no good when you have pools containing 5 gallons of water or more. Ventilation would do some good with woven fabric, as the pools will seep away and you are left with merely a wet sail. The boom is stored with the vang released and sloping down a bit towards the gooseneck but not enough to drain all the pools. I've had people suggest that if the sail were neatly flaked, it would drain better, but those people have no experience with a large sail, neatly flaking is not practical. 

When I had the boat in a wet climate (PNW) a sail put away in the rain (which is frequent) would stay that way for a very long time, since the laminate sail is essentially like a plastic tarp. Water trapped in it does not leave, ever. Much better chance in a dry climate as the sail gets put away dry usually. The issue with mold and mildew is how much time it spends dry vs. wet. 

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1 hour ago, EarthBM said:

How many miles/years did you have on the Ullman main?

The sail was said to be new in November 2015. Before we bought the boat in December 2018 I think it was pretty lightly used - maybe a few thousand miles? The boat was living in St. Augustine FL and the Bahamas, so lots of hot humid weather. In November of 2019 the clew webbing/stitching completely unzipped enroute Beaufort to USVIs, and we hand stitched it back together. December of 2019 we'd put about 6,900 miles on it and had a major failure at the first reef clew - about a 2' x 2' area of delamination. Ullman in St. Marten put a heavy patch on that and we've put another ~1,200 miles on the sail and have now been in the Caribbean for a year with it. It still actually looks pretty good, but there are clearly areas of delamination that just haven't failed yet...

I think this was more hot/humid age than miles. Of course it's half the price of 3Di, but four years in the tropics to major failure is a mighty short life.

FA333D58-243F-4102-AC8C-1951704ADC57_1_105_c.jpeg

D4D54D75-C568-4EAE-A387-74425986B1B5_1_105_c.jpeg

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The entire bottom of my pack is made of Phifertex, and is not held to the boom except by the lazy jack lines. Nor does it have battens. Not as crisp a look, but ventilates well and is easy to take off or ‘reef’ down for when I raced the boat.

@CapDavewhat sort of cloth is that pictured?

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A mesh bottom would eliminate the swimming pools in the bottom of the pack, but not the ones in the 4th flake up in the sail.

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I'm trying to upload a picture of it on a boat but SA won't let me...

This will have to do: https://imgur.com/SuD7PU8

You can see how the placement of the battens means there's no gully in the middle to collect water. When there's no zipper there it's just cloth and the water just runs right off.

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So, the battens are 1/3 - 1/2 the way down the sides of the furled sail? It appears that the red one pictured has a flap that goes up over from one batten and zips on the other side batten? It appears that yours had a zipper on center at the apex? 

What happens in either case when you drop the sail - I'd assume that to cover, you have to dig the flap out from under the sail which would be somewhat on top of it. Also, what happens to the flap when the sail is raised? Do you slacken the lazyjacks and try to tidy the stackpack, or let the flaps fall inside (where presumably they blow around a bit). I'd think yours with two smaller flaps would have less of these problems than the side zip with one pretty large flap.

I'm on my third version of the Doyle, the first one they made was nearly as large as the sail, I kept telling them to move in your direction - smaller and with the battens more around the side - with the hope that the sail would raise the middle and prevent the water collection. It was nearly 5 feet high to begin with, I've cut that in about 1/2. Whatever the faults of the Doyle, it does have a membrane that pulls the stackpack up against the sail making it very tidy, at least at full hoist. 

By the way on SA you can paste the direct link from Imgur and it will appear in the post. 

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39 minutes ago, DDW said:

. Whatever the faults of the Doyle, it does have a membrane that pulls the stackpack up against the sail making it very tidy, at least at full hoist. 

Is this what you have ? https://doylesails.com/other/sail-handling/stackpack 

What is meant by a "membrane" ... How does it 'pull' itself up against the sail at full hoist?

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@2flit In the third photo down on the Doyle page you linked you can see the Stackpack, and between the Stackpack and the bottom batten there is a section of white Dacron. This is sewn to the sail and the Stackpack and keeps it flush against the sail (when it's done properly). This is the "Membrane" you asked about. It's also visible in the drawing below the photo.

Personally I think it adds an extra level of unneeded complexity but I can also see it's uses.

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Exactly. You can see it pretty well in this picture. Yes, extra complexity, also requires the pack be sewn to the sail, and only works at full hoist. Still, many stack pack type covers are pretty unruly unless dropped and bundled up after the hoist. It seems to me it can be done with the sort Tylo is describing, except that on the drop it isn't going to fold itself in automatically like the Doyle, probably have to spend some effort tucking and sorting. 

 

C4SgO10.jpg

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That's a really neat feature with that Doyle pack, I've never seen that around my neck of the woods.

Mine is the side-zip version, when the sail is hoisted the flap hangs down on one side and you do have to "dig it up" from under the sail if you just drop it into the bag, yes. When sailing it looks something like this seen from the front:

 image.png.a8aab615918b742f6f11ebcf114774a1.png

We have experimented with ways of rolling that flap up against where it bends 180 degrees but found that it took longer to do that than to just dig it out from under the sail so we've abandoned those ideas for now.

Mine also has the "long distance"-option which included some webbing and buckles sown into the inside of the stack pack, the idea was that if you were going to spend a long time out at sea (like on an atlantic crossing or something like that) you could loosen the lazy jacks, bring them forward and parallell with the boom, and tie them off to the mast, then roll up the stack pack underneath the boom and secure it with those internal buckles. Kind of like built-in sail ties in a way. That way the stack pack wouldn't be flapping around in the wind for weeks at a time. I've only tried that feature at the dock and it seemed to work great but it takes 10-15 minutes to do so for a few hours' sailing it's not worth the effort in my opinion.

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OK, thanks for that explanation. Most non-Doyle packs I've seen do blow open from pressure trying to escape under the boom, maybe this adds a tiny bit to efficiency but it does have a certain "look". The Doyle membrane can blow open from ram pressure at the front, it has velcro that is supposed to hook up and prevent this, usually works but sometimes not. You can see that happening on the mizzen in this picture, forming a bubble near the foot. Also in that picture, you can see how large Doyle wants to make the pack: the mizzen has not been changed from as delivered and the much larger main has been redone twice to reduce height. It is actually lower than the mizzen now. 

One alternative I've been exploring is to add racks to the boom, primarily to get the lazyjacks away from the batten ends on the hoist. Along with that, you could make the pack sides slide up the lazyjacks and then a flap over the sail. The cover would be independent from the lazyjacks, but use them to stay orderly. After the hoist, they would slide down onto the racks. I'm not sure it would contain the sail as well on the drop though, since I'd be relying on only the lazyjacks, rather than the pack batten which extends their effect aft quite a ways. I guess it could still have the batten though. 

 

25WC2kQ.jpg

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On 11/20/2020 at 3:02 AM, Jethrow said:

That reef/corner patch is WAYYY too small!

Interesting comment. Looking carefully at the attached photo, all three clews have the same size reinforcement patch. We've never used the 3rd reef underway. We've certainly pushed the full sail clew pretty hard...but it was the first reef clew that failed. The repair done in St. Martin at least doubled the size. Do you think this is Ullman's planned obsolescence? Will be interesting to see the 3Di layout next week.

7C8C0FEB-602B-4EF5-80B1-159C1B5F391A_1_105_c.jpeg

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On 11/20/2020 at 10:09 AM, Max Rockatansky said:

The entire bottom of my pack is made of Phifertex, and is not held to the boom except by the lazy jack lines. Nor does it have battens. Not as crisp a look, but ventilates well and is easy to take off or ‘reef’ down for when I raced the boat.

@CapDavewhat sort of cloth is that pictured?

That was described to me as an Ullman Carbon/Vectran laminate. I just call it a string sail.

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DDW,  

This discussion has moved quite aways from HydraNet vs Laminated sails, but I noted a mention of "hay racks".

 I love hay racks, and have had them on both of my trimarans.  3 on each side is ideal, and the lazy jacks come out the ends of the hay racks.  While I am a fan of sail bags on cruising boats, I use a traditional sail cover on my race boat.  Important for myself and crew to adjust the outhaul; and this is harder to do with a sail bag.  I also "retract" my lazy jacks after dropping the sail, to enable the sail cover to go over easier.

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18 minutes ago, CapDave said:

Interesting comment. Looking carefully at the attached photo, all three clews have the same size reinforcement patch. We've never used the 3rd reef underway. We've certainly pushed the full sail clew pretty hard...but it was the first reef clew that failed. The repair done in St. Martin at least doubled the size. Do you think this is Ullman's planned obsolescence? Will be interesting to see the 3Di layout next week.

7C8C0FEB-602B-4EF5-80B1-159C1B5F391A_1_105_c.jpeg

Going to be very cool to see your 3Di sails! What colour did you go with? Hoping to see plenty of pictures somewhere; here or in the Over The Horizon/Cat tails threads?

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12 hours ago, DDW said:

 

C4SgO10.jpg

Can you tell us about the upside-down vang on your main? That's a really interesting idea. I have many many years of sailing monos with rigid vangs, and I miss having one. It would be a pretty big project to retrofit, but interested to learn about it.

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I think I can fit racks relatively easy to my boom, as the "crosstrees" holding the vang ends can be used as part of the structure. Having a separate cover on this size sail would be a big issue (that boom is over 24' long, built on a 12M class mandrel with much thicker wall). Do your racks angle up at any great angle, or are they flatter? Aesthetically, I have to go flat to match the crosstrees.

The inverted vang was done to keep the gooseneck low and the slide stack height within reach. I can just reach the top of the furled sail (and I'm about 5' 16" tall...). Not apparent in the picture but the lowest few slides drop between the gooseneck trunnions, part way through the boom. With the gooseneck in that position, it would have required a 20 ton cylinder in the conventional position underneath. The pushers are about 3.5 tons (each). The gooseneck only articulates vertically, and thus controls the rotation of the mast - necessary for the vang strut attachments. The cylinders are custom Navtec, as they work upside down: the hydraulic oil pushes down, the nitrogen pulls to hold the boom up. Other than the usual problems with any hydraulics, the system has worked well. You do have to teach yourself not to duck under the boom and pop right up again, you'll bang your head.

I guess the thread is well and truly hijacked now, but it all has to do with Hydranet vs. impermeable sails. 

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I wouldn't bother to raise the topping lift to drain the sail (except I don't have a topping lift), after all I'm virtually waterproof myself. All this is to prevent the pooling of water, growing an ecosystem of pond life, permanently staining the sail and eating the glue holding it together, and causing mass murder of the entire ecosystem on hoist, bringing out PETA to throw blood on me when I step onto the dock . Or merely just causing unsightly black mold and mildew stains all over it, making it embarrassing to raise sail. The laminated sails sales guys have been for at least two decades, every year, saying "oh that used to be a problem but we've improved the process this year" only to repeat themselves year after year. 

I could care less if I get wet, but cannot stomach moss and mildew stains on my sails. 

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