craigiri

Lee Boards as opposed to centerboard on row/sail Dinghy

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My quest is underway - for a 12 to 15 foot boat for Sarasota - to row and sail. 

If it wasn't for the rowing part I'd have many more options. 

I may buy new - because finding a used 12+ foot with those options is difficult and I have the money to do it - only live once (I think).

So far I am finding these companies which sit in the mdi-level of price ranges....

http://www.bauteckmarine.com (http://www.bauteckmarine.com/bauer-121.html)

http://www.littlerivermarine.com ( http://www.littlerivermarine.com/heritage-12-classic/ )

https://www.ghboats.com  (https://www.ghboats.com/our-boats/12-point-defiance/)

In a sense, the Bauer seems almost perfect other than the much heavier weight - but I can deal with that. I have gotten no response by email or FB messenger so I am going to have to make sure they are still in business. The nice thing about that boat is the more traditional seating (can put up to 4 adults in a motor to a cove)...

Little River is local (Gainesville) and appears to know what they are doing. But their sailing package doesn't have a centerboard, instead it appears is uses lee board that serve that function. The very light weight (I could go for the composite version!) is really nice. It doesn't have as much "family space" but 90% of the time it's just me.

My question is whether the lack of a centerboard for sailing might be a reason to take it off the list? I am likely to be sailing at least 1/2 of the time or more, so I don't want to compromise as much on that end.

Anyone with experience with lee boards? Some of these boats also have ama's of a sort for add-on rough seas protection however I won't be taking this on the Everglades Challenge! 

Finding the perfect compromise is always a PITA - I could just give up and buy a sailing dinghy/boat and then a cheap rowing dinghy...since I will be storing them on the hard at a bay beach. But the appeal of one boat (the Bauer) IF it does the job is definitely there. 

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Leeboards are a big compromise, but so is weight. The off center crabbing is an issue and they’re usually too short. I’d be prepared to extend the length and put one on both sides if sailing to weather is important 

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Let me put it this way... no boat with leeboards has ever won the America's Cup.

The flip side of this is that a centerboard or daggerboard is exactly in the wrong place for a nice rowing craft, and is a small but noticeable drag. And a potential source of leaks.

Personally, I'd prefer a daggerboard as long as it wasn't too much in the way of rowing, but I'd accept leeboards if it was the boat I wanted most other ways, and it didn't flounder  or wallow trying to get upwind. Shucks, you can always row to get back home!

FB- Doug

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craigiri, My experience ( mostly buying the wrong boat ) has led me to start the process by deciding just how I will use any boat. If you can afford two boats - one for rowing and one for sailing - then buy two boats. Compromise boats are usually not very good at anything. Happy Sailing or Rowing or Both!

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Thanks for the replies! To add to the information chain, Bauer is no longer making boats! And they were my fav in terms of the compromise (had centerboard, large weight capacity and good seating!).

There are rental boats cheap at the SSS - so that's a thing - I could get a cheap row/sail (an older AMF Puffer seems to do the job) and then rent the Hobie or Monohull on occasion to sail/sail......I think I won't consider the leeboards- so that takes it down to the gig harbor if I want to do both on one......

I'll cruise the classified for a couple weeks and see if I get lucky......

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I have a 12.5 foot row/sail/motor dinghy (lobster 12.5). It is fun to sail, rowing is doable (at approx 6 km/hr, so not very fast) and equipped with a torqeedo electric outboard it serves us well in the A'dam canals.  We have sailed it this covid holidays in the Frisian lakes and with the three of us and that was good fun. However, I do love sailing my laser a lot more.

 

BTW I have sailed dutch barges with leeboards and they work fine but on a boat this size i would go for a centreboard.

 

image.png.38afcebcb3aa5940430eb47be5b7e33d.png

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39 minutes ago, craigiri said:

Thanks for the replies! To add to the information chain, Bauer is no longer making boats! And they were my fav in terms of the compromise (had centerboard, large weight capacity and good seating!).

There are rental boats cheap at the SSS - so that's a thing - I could get a cheap row/sail (an older AMF Puffer seems to do the job) and then rent the Hobie or Monohull on occasion to sail/sail......I think I won't consider the leeboards- so that takes it down to the gig harbor if I want to do both on one......

I'll cruise the classified for a couple weeks and see if I get lucky......

I had a Puffer for a few years as my "creek boat" and my only real criticism is that it's kinda heavy. The mast especially is inconveniently long and heavy. It's also a great kid's boat, if that question should ever come up. It need extensions or outriggers for the oarlocks if you actually want to get anywhere. Even 6' oars were a bit too long for it, the way it is.

But it's a fun and practical little boat. By now, you will need new sails and new hardware... not a problem for me since I have a boat-junk warehouse conveniently located right in my house. Once I took all the old shit off (which was cheap and not good when new) and re-rigged the sheets and halyards and put on a vang, it was the perfect boat to bang around small waters for a couple hours. Just too heavy/cumbersome to drag around the yard by myself or get over our bulkhead. If you have a beach, it would be fine.

post-30927-0-64352000-1386871164_thumb.jpgpost-30927-0-69932100-1448463061_thumb.jpg

[edit to add] somewhere in this forum, there is a thread in which I discussed this boat and had some more photos. The noble SA'ers here were generally not impressed but seemed glad I was having fun for myself

I haven't really found the ideal creek boat yet, come to think of it.

FB- Doug

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A quick look just found one Puffer with newer sails and good trailer nearby for 1900

and, a C&L 14 for the same price (Canadian Boat - and I found a pic of it with oarlocks)......

At those prices in good or excellent condition I probably can't go wrong. C &L is still in business (parts, etc.).

https://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/boa/d/saugerties-1984-cl-14-sailboat-with/7210298260.html

Yeah, the downside is weight - but I'd be keeping it mast-up on the trailer probably at a Club and it would just be a couple minutes to back it in with my VW Sportwagen.

Even when I say price isn't important my real SOUL comes out......and the difference between 2K and 9K (the gig harbor carbon model).....well, it's something I could use to buy another boat!

If I 100% knew I could find similar boats down in Florida I'd wait until I drive down there in 3 weeks. But sometimes Northern Boats (these two were probably only lake sailed in fresh water) are better, eh?

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18 minutes ago, craigiri said:

A quick look just found one Puffer with newer sails and good trailer nearby for 1900

and, a C&L 14 for the same price (Canadian Boat - and I found a pic of it with oarlocks)......

At those prices in good or excellent condition I probably can't go wrong. C &L is still in business (parts, etc.).

https://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/boa/d/saugerties-1984-cl-14-sailboat-with/7210298260.html

Yeah, the downside is weight - but I'd be keeping it mast-up on the trailer probably at a Club and it would just be a couple minutes to back it in with my VW Sportwagen.

Even when I say price isn't important my real SOUL comes out......and the difference between 2K and 9K (the gig harbor carbon model).....well, it's something I could use to buy another boat!

If I 100% knew I could find similar boats down in Florida I'd wait until I drive down there in 3 weeks. But sometimes Northern Boats (these two were probably only lake sailed in fresh water) are better, eh?

Saves a lot of time and trouble to have either a dolly, or some handles on the trailer tongue, and just walk it in/out.

I tend to look on the less expensive scale of things too

FB- Doug

 

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I'm very strong, but still - getting into the 400 pound range with trailer and fully assembled boat may not be a one person job. I easily did 200 with my last 10 foot tri and trailer..

I may just buy one or those two since I want to sail the river up here also next year so if nothing else I'll put it in the shop garage up here...or, I will haul it down I am confident in the trailer. Given the cost (and slower speeds) of bring something back and forth, it's almost a no brainer to not do it. I never even brought my Sprint 750 to Florida - too much of a PITA.

I'm with all of you in that sailing (and skiing and most everything else) means as little time as possible with the BS of getting there and rigging and launching. I want to be able to go out for an hour at sunset without even thinking about it. 

Funny - looking at plastic boats (Bahia - but $$ once outfitted) and looking at carbon boats and old Puffers.....all in the same hour....and looking at the hand built Little River stuff. Shame they are mostly rowing and use the lee boards because they seem a quality builder (Gainesville - and the owner and founder got right back to me!). 

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I would give CL a call and make sure they really are still in buisiness rather than just an old web site.

I don't think I would be keen on rowing a CL 14 very far.  5ft or 8 inch beam.  Wouldn't be the easiest.  

If new is an option, could consider a Norseboat 12.5.

https://norseboat.com/norseboat-12-5/

 

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The Norse and whitehall stuff is very nice - but I don't think I want to spend that much.

At this point I will await my perfect Puffer or Bauer 12 or maybe settle for a 10" Bauer or 10" Cape Dory - that way I get to use it for a while and if that style fits me I can order a gig harbor or whatever for the next year.

For whatever reason I like having a jib - I may be wrong on that point also......I just got so accustomed to it being the control sail. But if I get something used I won't be as choosy on that end.

It does turn out that the gig harbor 12.5 Defiance looks about perfect - other than the 6 month wait. 

I did read up a bunch on leeboards last night. Good to learn new things. I don't think I want to go that way!

The good news is, again, with the rental boats (hobie wave and daysailer) at SSS I will effectively have a little fleet for myself - so I can't go wrong. 

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If you are considering CD 10, add Dyer Dhow to your list.  Light, high volume, sails and rows well enough.  

I wouldn't bother with a jib on a boat like this.  If the rig comes with a jib great, if it is a cat rig, also great.  

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I may be getting out of Dinghy territory (and price), but these liteboats are surely nice! 

I will check out those others. 

Yeah, that Heron is very nice - almost perfect. I will check with the butler folks and see what their USA terms are. 

https://www.liteboat.com/product/litexp/

Yeah  - a couple other options at 10 foot range. Ideally I wanted 12 mostly because I read that they row better and a bit more room inside - but it always depends on the exact layout of the boat 

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Just to add to the info on this thread - Trinka may still be in business. They actually did make a 12 at one time, but I think maybe only 8 and 10 now (if still in business - they were 6 months ago!).

http://www.trinka.com/index.htm

Wing Systems makes a 9 foot - Carbon! That's extremely light weight - pricy, but seems like a quality operation - some of you may even have heard of their people (advanced in composites, etc.)

http://www.wingsystemssmallcraft.com/Category.aspx?catid=2999789f-b453-48d0-826c-1480195b389c

No doubt all these makers would benefit from a directory of sorts of all available small sailboats made in the USA - it takes a lot of digging around to find all of them. Many directories put together in past years lead to 90% dead pages (boat makes come and go quickly!). 

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I design rowing and sailing boats (among other floaty things). Beware of the compromise problem. There is no such thing as a great rowing & sailing boat. But you can have a good compromise provided you have clear expectations. The smallest compromise is downwind on a rowing oriented design. Not much compromise at all (well, except don't try it on a single scull!).
Upwind sailing always is in direct conflict with good rowing features.

That European boat you found has much too much windage and too wide a stern to be a good rowing boat. Note that there is not a breath of wind or waves in their photo!

There are many different types of rowing. What sort of rowing do you want to do? Pottering about in an 8 foot pram can be great fun. But if you want to cover water or go out in wind / waves it is no fun. Just as an example. Sailing an 8 foot pram is fun on a millpond. Or racing in the winter (Cape Cod Frosty). It is a tedious and slow cramped uncomfortable way to sail on good sailing days.

You can row and sail a Heron. But it is a sailboat first and foremost. (You can also row an Enterprise...or a GP14...or heck, a Drascombe Lugger! But why torture yourself...)


You can row and sail a whitehall. But it is a pulling boat first and foremost. Same with a peapod.

A traditional St Lawrence Skiff is a hell of a sailer even though a great pulling boat. However it is great because it is sailed wit no rudder and is heavy! I've done modern light St Lawrence evolutions which are great for rowing but not sailing. (In fact I did one for an owner in S. Florida 20 years ago.)

The most thought and variety that has been put to this compromise exists in "traditional" boats. That problem was the fundamental watermans' problem of the 18th and 19th centuries. "American Small Sailing Craft" by Chapelle is a resource for understanding many of these types (some of which I already mentioned).

I will reiterate that there is nothing wrong with owning one boat and doing both and embracing the compromise. Nothing wrong at all. But find out what is acceptable and not to give up.


 

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Thanks - once again, most all makes I find have stopped making boats! Trinka stopped last year - although they were making a couple sport boats also (Raider, Windmill)......
Now I am definitely leaning toward small sailing only. 

It seems the big makers and the low maintenance of the Laser and Zim, etc. is taking over a lot of the market. I'm not going to say that's a bad thing - it is what it is and it's nice to have boats that don't need a lot of upkeep. 

As far as rowing - my idea is just for exercise. Even on windy days there are flat waters on Sarasota Bay (in areas) - and surely the waters are fairly flat in the Northeast where I will be using them (river, lakes).

For 10 years I've rowed out over 1,000 feet to and from my Corsair in Portsmouth, RI - often in big fetch, and with my 200 dollar Walker Bay 8 footer. I once rowed the 3 miles across and back (no wind), but I never felt unsafe once I learned how the boat worked. I felt like the whalers of old.....in a relative sense, they used small boats for big water. 

Then I started looking at the RS 16 cat last night - maybe once one goes to a MH it's hard to go back? Reading the stories of most every sailor in non-keel boats capsizing isn't exactly what I wanted to hear, but I am confident I can generally keep from doing so by choosing my sailing conditions and adjusting my sail. 

There is a bit of a lack of excitement with a MH after this many years because I've pushed mine to (almost) the limit and you get to know that it's almost impossible to scare yourself...and that's part of the idea of sailing (to get scared.....and then conquer it). 

Boats are cheap enough (used) that I may just end up with a couple...maybe one better (new or close) one. It may help for me to BS with some of the SSS people once I get down there in 4 weeks. I'm not a racer but there may be some members who just want another hand or want to share a boat ,etc 

Also, I will talk with the wife because part of the "one type does all" was thinking she and a friend or kid would get one and we could row or electric motor a mile or three to some coves and beaches....if she indicates that she is not interested in such, that means I can get a "2 adult" boat instead of one that holds more. 

Yeah, so the rowing down in FL is just for 20 minutes here and there to build up some core strength and maybe a good way to do without a small outboard also. 

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If you had a Walker Bay and liked it, why not a Walker Bay?

I had a Walker Bay 8 with the sail kit as a tender on my bigger boat, no engine required, got every where with sail and oar.  We would anchor the big boat and would spend whole days out sailing and exploring in my WB.

The 8 is cramped (I had the 8), but the 10 is a more spacious boat.  

WB8.jpg

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The Walker Bay was great as a one-up - but definitely different with even another adult in it. But I still may get one as the rowing boat - if I get two boats. I did see a couple 10's advertised so that might solve the two passenger problem. 

Getting a little off-topic here - but read some of the older threads on older sailors! I am 67....but no medical conditions and can play tennis and walk miles and do most anything,. So I'm digging through the boats last night (used) and came across a used RS Vision - perfect condition w/lots of options - NE boat - $4500 (1/2 price). 
Some of the threads here said that club instructors and others were not really happy with that model - but I'm not sure if that pertains to me....I'd use it single handed 90% of the time.

Also found a Raider locally - about $3500 complete. Again, I'd sail it mostly singlehanded (buy another old boat for rowing). 

On both these boats I wonder about my age? I don't want to be hanging out over the rail full time although I don't need to be in a comfy seat all the time either, The Raider, with it's wings, almost seems like it might be comfy when heeling as your body doesn't have to hang over as much. 

Coming from a multi-hull I am getting the idea that sailing in a small dinghy that has no ability to plane may not satisfy, On the other hand, I don't need the top speed - just don't want to be at 5 knots in a breeze. But those two examples are priced well and perfect shape. 

As an aside, after looking at thousands of ads I generally see nicer boats if I use a 500 mile radius of Philly (on FB) than I do in Florida itself - where many seem to have been stored outside, etc. 

On the other end of the Spectrum, that little Picnic Cat (compac...) is a cute boat that won't go fast but will hold a crowd, looks decent and will go into very shallow waters. 

Now I can see why the guy who bought my little wind rider 10 (FL) told me "yeah, I just collect a bunch of boats"......

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The Gig Harbor 10’ Navigator is a way better boat than the Walker Bay.  Light and faster under row or sail. I like mine but love my outrigger canoe more. I standup paddle and sail it. 16’ is way faster. 

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5 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

The Gig Harbor 10’ Navigator is a way better boat than the Walker Bay.  Light and faster under row or sail. I like mine but love my outrigger canoe more. I standup paddle and sail it. 16’ is way faster. 

If it wasn't for the 6 months wait I'd have strongly considered the 12.5 Defiance Gig Harbor. If I decide to go new it's still in the running for one of the fleet! 

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In terms of rowing enjoyment a few things to consider. Max speed ever will be sliding seat single scull sbout 26 feet.

Sliding seat is effective down to about 18 feet. Any shorter it stops making sense brcause hull speed and also hobbyhorsing. The classic Appledore is 16 with slide. Fun but a bit short.

13 or 14 foot boats are noticeably longer legged than 10 footers. 8 footers are very slow. Less than 16 feet you are likrly hittimg hull speed "wall" long before full exercise.

Windage is a big deal  freeboard x lenght. The problem with longer is that freeboard mist reduce if windage to br kept low.

Ouriggers are way cool.

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