EarthBM 68 #1 Posted November 11, 2020 Odd... Hallucine, which won the last ARC, had as competent crew as any cruising cat could. 16-20 TWS, two reefs. They claim the capsize happened after hitting something in the water, but the hulls seem intact (pic). It did happen around where killer whales have been attacking boats’ recently. hmm... thoughts? https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/securite-en-mer/disparition-en-mer/le-catamaran-hallucine-de-regis-guillemot-chavire-au-large-de-vigo-un-mort-trois-rescapes-491bc45c-237e-11eb-97e1-64af5fb563fa https://www.is.fi/kotimaa/art-2000007609445.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KC375 1,640 #2 Posted November 11, 2020 One dead. really sad. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robalex117 40 #3 Posted November 11, 2020 https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/securite-en-mer/disparition-en-mer/le-catamaran-hallucine-de-regis-guillemot-chavire-au-large-de-vigo-un-mort-trois-rescapes-491bc45c-237e-11eb-97e1-64af5fb563fa Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scab 0 #4 Posted November 12, 2020 Agree that this is very sad. How is a capsize possible with 2 reefs in 16-20? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scab 0 #5 Posted November 12, 2020 To be clear. those are separate statements. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greenflash 146 #6 Posted November 12, 2020 This is terrible news. My thoughts and love to all those involved. Let's give them some time to take stock and give feedback on the event when they are ready, without jumping to any conclusions. This is a bad day for anyone in the multihull world and indeed any sailor! 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 2,375 #7 Posted November 12, 2020 Wow, that is shocking and sad. Good boat and crew; would not have thought it possible. One board raised or missing in the pic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mpenman 73 #8 Posted November 12, 2020 6 hours ago, Greenflash said: This is terrible news. My thoughts and love to all those involved. Let's give them some time to take stock and give feedback on the event when they are ready, without jumping to any conclusions. This is a bad day for anyone in the multihull world and indeed any sailor! Agreed, this can happen to anyone. Very sad to hear about the skipper at the time. My heart goes out to their families. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EarthBM 68 #9 Posted November 12, 2020 7 hours ago, Wess said: Wow, that is shocking and sad. Good boat and crew; would not have thought it possible. One board raised or missing in the pic. Any death is sad, but personally I think it’s not a bad way to go, a kind of good death that brings you to Valhalla. I’d choose that over dying in my bed, a sotdöd. The last AIS position had them pointing SSW, which would put them on SB tack. So the leeward board being raised makes sense. The rarity of these events is exactly what warrants the focus and study. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KC375 1,640 #10 Posted November 12, 2020 6 minutes ago, EarthBM said: Any death is sad, but personally I think it’s not a bad way to go, a kind of good death that brings you to Valhalla. I’d choose that over dying in my bed, a sotdöd. The last AIS position had them pointing SSW, which would put them on SB tack. So the leeward board being raised makes sense. The rarity of these events is exactly what warrants the focus and study. If on SB wouldn't the port board be down...image shows port board up or broken... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EarthBM 68 #11 Posted November 12, 2020 18 minutes ago, KC375 said: If on SB wouldn't the port board be down...image shows port board up or broken... Safer to have the windward board down/leeward board up. So in a puff you slide leeward rather than pivot over the leeward board. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KC375 1,640 #12 Posted November 12, 2020 12 minutes ago, EarthBM said: Safer to have the windward board down/leeward board up. So in a puff you slide leeward rather than pivot over the leeward board. thanks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PIL66 - XL2 878 #13 Posted November 12, 2020 Very sad news for sure And speaking of tragedies.... The the f*ck is the front page re hashing a the story of the Spirited 380 accident from 1.5 years ago....? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jethrow 132 #14 Posted November 12, 2020 I'm guessing the Ed scrambled to put up the news item about TS5 and got the wrong capsize story 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SeaGul 51 #15 Posted November 13, 2020 10 hours ago, PIL66 - XL2 said: Very sad news for sure And speaking of tragedies.... The the f*ck is the front page re hashing a the story of the Spirited 380 accident from 1.5 years ago....? Its not on the frontpage as far I can see - but fresh in the FB Sailing A - to me it looked like a new accident at first... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ohmboy 1 #16 Posted November 13, 2020 Marsaudon Composites ORC50 (TS5) right-side up for reference. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kent_island_sailor 3,405 #17 Posted November 13, 2020 Damn - looks like a great boat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
us7070 259 #18 Posted November 15, 2020 well, it happened pretty near to where the Orca incidents have been occurring. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boardhead 205 #19 Posted November 15, 2020 Does that boat have escape hatches? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MRS OCTOPUS 116 #20 Posted November 15, 2020 On 11/13/2020 at 7:35 AM, PIL66 - XL2 said: Very sad news for sure And speaking of tragedies.... The the f*ck is the front page re hashing a the story of the Spirited 380 accident from 1.5 years ago....? PIL66 , was there an official enquiry or coroners findings published as to what went wrong. It’s been a while with nothing . Would hate to see a repeat for the sake of a few findings published to assist other catamaran sailors. As you are well aware there have been 3 x 380 to capsized. Kangaroo Island, Stockton Bight, and Lake Macquarie. Did we hear from the designer at all? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PIL66 - XL2 878 #21 Posted November 15, 2020 38 minutes ago, MRS OCTOPUS said: PIL66 , was there an official enquiry or coroners findings published as to what went wrong. It’s been a while with nothing . Would hate to see a repeat for the sake of a few findings published to assist other catamaran sailors. As you are well aware there have been 3 x 380 to capsized. Kangaroo Island, Stockton Bight, and Lake Macquarie. Did we hear from the designer at all? I've heard nothing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BeatmongerZ 9 #22 Posted November 15, 2020 How does a boat like this capsize from hitting a submerged object? Does it trip going down a wave or something? Hard to understand the physics here especially given the crew report of sailing under-canvassed in 16-20. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
astro 721 #23 Posted November 15, 2020 It happens when they are over powered for the conditions. They have a 16.5m stick on a 11.7m boat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HotCarNut 6 #24 Posted November 16, 2020 56 minutes ago, astro said: It happens when they are over powered for the conditions. They have a 16.5m stick on a 11.7m boat. I’m guessing you’re talking about the 380. A TS5 is 15.24m with a mast height of 20m. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
astro 721 #25 Posted November 16, 2020 1 hour ago, HotCarNut said: I’m guessing you’re talking about the 380. A TS5 is 15.24m with a mast height of 20m. Yeah, wrong boat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidecar 779 #26 Posted November 16, 2020 2 hours ago, HotCarNut said: 3 hours ago, astro said: It happens when they are over powered for the conditions. They have a 16.5m stick on a 11.7m boat. I’m guessing you’re talking about the 380. A TS5 is 15.24m with a mast height of 20m Same ratio mast height to LOA at ~ 1.4. But bigger boat will always be more difficult to pitchpole/capsize in any case? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
astro 721 #27 Posted November 16, 2020 31 minutes ago, Sidecar said: Same ratio mast height to LOA at ~ 1.4. But bigger boat will always be more difficult to pitchpole/capsize in any case? I have spent time on cats 38 and 45 feet. Because they just slip through the water easier and they generate larger rig loadings with the wider beam, they usually reduce the rig size to produce a really stable safe platform. Even then, sailing/racing at night on multi-hulls is a very different experience in risk management. The penalty for not seeing and getting hit with a squall with the rags up on a mono is a knock-down, on a mutlihull it can be a capsize. Not sure about the bigger boats being more difficult to put in the piss, you are probably right but it just depends on the circumstances. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HotCarNut 6 #28 Posted November 16, 2020 10 hours ago, Sidecar said: Same ratio mast height to LOA at ~ 1.4. But bigger boat will always be more difficult to pitchpole/capsize in any case? Interesting ratios for some of these boats: 380 ~1.4 TS5 ~1.3 GB68 (regatta) ~1.4 GB68 (cruising) ~1.2 HH66 (turbo) ~1.5 HH66 (cruising) ~1.3 I wonder if the beam ratio plays a role too... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soma 648 #29 Posted November 16, 2020 38 minutes ago, HotCarNut said: Interesting ratios for some of these boats: 380 ~1.4 TS5 ~1.3 GB68 (regatta) ~1.4 GB68 (cruising) ~1.2 HH66 (turbo) ~1.5 HH66 (cruising) ~1.3 I wonder if the beam ratio plays a role too... The TS is quite wide for its length. One of the main reasons it’s so fast. I’d think beam is more important than length, it’s hard to imagine going ass over teakettle. It’s easy to imagine going over sideways. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Upp3 168 #30 Posted November 16, 2020 43 minutes ago, soma said: The TS is quite wide for its length. One of the main reasons it’s so fast. I’d think beam is more important than length, it’s hard to imagine going ass over teakettle. It’s easy to imagine going over sideways. TS5 is 8,6 meters wide, GB68 is 9,12 and HH66 8,7. So yeah, it is wide! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boardhead 205 #31 Posted November 16, 2020 So you hit something that causes rapid deceleration or change of heading and/or damage to hull(s) or appendages which leads to deceleration pitchpole or increased TWS due to that deceleration or different angular exposure due to directional change from the impact or lack of control from appendage damage etc,etc, etc. Not enough information on the incident to make any determination so it's all conjecture. Two reefs but how much foreword of the mast? The capsized shot shows some swell but how much and how long after the incident was that picture taken. Lack of underwater damage save the missing board and high freeboard indicating no hull punctures suggests she sailed over and 16 - 20 with a big reacher and a broach on a light boat might be enough. Conjecture on beam ratio/rig height without displacement or prismatic is grasping at straws too. That's a fine boat representing the current development of fast, fun, offshore cats so let's hope there are some lessons learned when more specific information emerges. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mookiesurfs 98 #32 Posted November 16, 2020 4 hours ago, soma said: The TS is quite wide for its length. One of the main reasons it’s so fast. I’d think beam is more important than length, it’s hard to imagine going ass over teakettle. It’s easy to imagine going over sideways. Soma I suspect you have more time in cats than I ever will, but with all due respect, it’s not terribly hard to pitchpole a cat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PIL66 - XL2 878 #33 Posted November 16, 2020 8 hours ago, HotCarNut said: Interesting ratios for some of these boats: 380 ~1.4 TS5 ~1.3 GB68 (regatta) ~1.4 GB68 (cruising) ~1.2 HH66 (turbo) ~1.5 HH66 (cruising) ~1.3 I wonder if the beam ratio plays a role too... I have had a similar incident but not at night and no fatalities ... Beam ratio absolutely plays a part .... my boat is a racing boat and is close to 1.5 with low volume in the bow and large roach in the main so not surprised that when it went over it was more pitch pole than capsize ..(A bit of both really). The TS5 is a safe ratio and a well proven fast ocean cruiser that can be raced so a safe boat in my opinion. it would be great to get the actual reasons for this capsize for all to learn and hopefully help avoid future incidences but unfortunately we rarely get the actual blow by blow, warts and all account due to either an ongoing investigation from police and or insurance (In my case) Sometimes those that were there just don't want to talk for whatever reasons as that's their right. Sailing the worlds oceans is never totally safe regardless of the boat and in life accidents happen so the secret is how to limit it to an acceptable percentage.... for me it's risk Vs mental reward in racing... but i learned recently in my crash that I risked others for my reward which is not acceptable and I regret that and have learned from it. I believe a bigger problem now that impacts us is No.1... the shear quantity of inexperience people now out cruising the world. It seems with youtube the new phenomenon is to buy a boat with a GPS and go with next to no real time sailing / traveling miles under your belt and No.2.... The amount of large floating objects in the ocean ready to take you out at any time. This boat is now part of that problem and should be removed. I hope the boat will be recovered and if so we will hear more .... Condolences to the family 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidecar 779 #34 Posted November 17, 2020 11 hours ago, HotCarNut said: 380 ~1.4 TS5 ~1.3 Apologies. My eyesight is failing me.... I misread 1.31 for 1.37 and then rounded up instead of down. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EarthBM 68 #35 Posted November 17, 2020 One of the higher-quality articles on the killer whale attacks: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/buqvasp1rr/orcas-spain-portugal The last AIS signal came from exactly there: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mpenman 73 #36 Posted November 18, 2020 On 11/16/2020 at 1:21 PM, mookiesurfs said: Soma I suspect you have more time in cats than I ever will, but with all due respect, it’s not terribly hard to pitchpole a cat. A fast cruising cat mostly definitely does not like to pitchpole. I've buried the hulls to the mid crossbeam and it did not even lift it's rear at all. I think it's more a function of weight and CG. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kenny Dumas 245 #37 Posted November 21, 2020 Orcas Cowtipping 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Upp3 168 #39 Posted November 23, 2020 On 11/18/2020 at 5:09 PM, mpenman said: A fast cruising cat mostly definitely does not like to pitchpole. I've buried the hulls to the mid crossbeam and it did not even lift it's rear at all. I think it's more a function of weight and CG. Hallucine even has automatic sheet release system: https://www.yachtingworld.com/sailing-across-atlantic/catamaran-sailing-multihulls-arc-126773 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yl75 990 #40 Posted November 23, 2020 I tried to find recent info on this one but didn't find much .. If the cat was under powered and 20 knts of wind, I really struggle to understand what really happened even with a UFO, and especially considering that no major damage can be ween in the pic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wess 2,375 #41 Posted November 23, 2020 On 11/21/2020 at 3:47 PM, Kenny Dumas said: Orcas Cowtipping That is funny right there. Wonder how many will get that. Thought cow tipping was a NJ thing. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
patzefran 4 #42 Posted November 23, 2020 10 minutes ago, Wess said: That is funny right there. Wonder how many will get that. Thought cow tipping was a NJ thing. Rogue wave ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EarthBM 68 #43 Posted November 24, 2020 16 hours ago, Upp3 said: Hallucine even has automatic sheet release system: https://www.yachtingworld.com/sailing-across-atlantic/catamaran-sailing-multihulls-arc-126773 Good article. Perhaps the answer is related to this quote: “For him, there is full speed ahead, or nothing!” Makes me less certain they really did run the 2nd reef in 16-18 TWS. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Upp3 168 #44 Posted November 24, 2020 5 hours ago, EarthBM said: Good article. Perhaps the answer is related to this quote: “For him, there is full speed ahead, or nothing!” Makes me less certain they really did run the 2nd reef in 16-18 TWS. Last speed on Marinetraffic: Speed/Course: 9.5 kn / 239 ° https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:5777862/mmsi:227894280/imo:0/vessel:HALLUCINE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SeaGul 51 #45 Posted November 24, 2020 I an accident one usually finds that more than one thing har joined forces to make the result; here I can think of a whale - dont make much marks , a rought wave - or a sudden burst of wind - from an other angle - or combination of the two last.... as the watchman is missing it can be hard to find out exactly what happend . Is the boat salvaged? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kenny Dumas 245 #46 Posted November 25, 2020 I apologize for making light of this tragedy and my condolences to those who loved him. The perils of not reading the whole thread. I’m so sorry 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yl75 990 #47 Posted December 29, 2020 https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/carballo/malpica-de-bergantinos/2020/12/24/catamaran-tripulantes-bate-contra-rocas-cerca-punta-nariga-malpica/00031608803413289708827.htm?fbclid=IwAR171uyvHPVnULJHGAHQ4Hg8QC0vhESvSwfrjwln0I-cUBdAqzPyunP89Yk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F18 Sailor 285 #49 Posted December 30, 2020 Tragic end to a tragic situation. Might be worth recovering for the rudders and environmental cleanup? Rest of the boat looks trashed, though it may have been salvageable before washing up on those nasty rocks. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yl75 990 #50 Posted December 30, 2020 Still a big mystery how that could happen, apparently they were underpowered 2 reefs in 20 knots. But Regis Guillemot is truly affected by this story and the death of the crew, probably a reason for so little info. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SeaGul 51 #51 Posted December 30, 2020 Wouldn it be possible so rescue that before it was trashed at the shore? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Upp3 168 #52 Posted December 30, 2020 4 hours ago, yl75 said: Still a big mystery how that could happen, apparently they were underpowered 2 reefs in 20 knots. But Regis Guillemot is truly affected by this story and the death of the crew, probably a reason for so little info. Maybe official investigation going on? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F18 Sailor 285 #53 Posted December 30, 2020 2 hours ago, SeaGul said: Wouldn it be possible so rescue that before it was trashed at the shore? Maybe they didn’t have tracking data available? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites