EarthBM

TS5 capsize

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Odd... Hallucine, which won the last ARC, had as competent crew as any cruising cat could. 16-20 TWS, two reefs. They claim the capsize happened after hitting something in the water, but the hulls seem intact (pic).

It did happen around where killer whales have been attacking boats’ recently. 
 

hmm... thoughts?

 

https://voilesetvoiliers.ouest-france.fr/securite-en-mer/disparition-en-mer/le-catamaran-hallucine-de-regis-guillemot-chavire-au-large-de-vigo-un-mort-trois-rescapes-491bc45c-237e-11eb-97e1-64af5fb563fa

 

https://www.is.fi/kotimaa/art-2000007609445.html

DA80A366-B0E0-4DE4-BB47-6DC761DFA629.jpeg

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One dead. really sad.

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Agree that this is very sad.  How is a capsize possible with 2 reefs in  16-20?

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This is terrible news. My thoughts and love to all those involved. :(

Let's give them some time to take stock and give feedback on the event when they are ready, without jumping to any conclusions. 

This is a bad day for anyone in the multihull world and indeed any sailor! 

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Wow, that is shocking and sad.  Good boat and crew; would not have thought it possible.  One board raised or missing in the pic.

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6 hours ago, Greenflash said:

This is terrible news. My thoughts and love to all those involved. :(

Let's give them some time to take stock and give feedback on the event when they are ready, without jumping to any conclusions. 

This is a bad day for anyone in the multihull world and indeed any sailor! 

Agreed, this can happen to anyone. Very sad to hear about the skipper at the time. My heart goes out to their families.

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

Wow, that is shocking and sad.  Good boat and crew; would not have thought it possible.  One board raised or missing in the pic.

Any death is sad, but personally I think it’s not a bad way to go, a kind of good death that brings you to Valhalla. I’d choose that over dying in my bed, a sotdöd.

The last AIS position had them pointing SSW, which would put them on SB tack. So the leeward board being raised makes sense. 

The rarity of these events is exactly what warrants the focus and study. 

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6 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

Any death is sad, but personally I think it’s not a bad way to go, a kind of good death that brings you to Valhalla. I’d choose that over dying in my bed, a sotdöd.

The last AIS position had them pointing SSW, which would put them on SB tack. So the leeward board being raised makes sense. 

The rarity of these events is exactly what warrants the focus and study. 

If on SB wouldn't the port board be down...image shows port board up or broken...

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18 minutes ago, KC375 said:

If on SB wouldn't the port board be down...image shows port board up or broken...

Safer to have the windward board down/leeward board up. So in a puff you slide leeward rather than pivot over the leeward board.

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12 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

Safer to have the windward board down/leeward board up. So in a puff you slide leeward rather than pivot over the leeward board.

thanks

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Very sad news for sure 

And speaking of tragedies.... The the f*ck is the front page re hashing a the story of the Spirited 380 accident from 1.5 years ago....? 

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I'm guessing the Ed scrambled to put up the news item about TS5 and got the wrong capsize story :(

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10 hours ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

Very sad news for sure 

And speaking of tragedies.... The the f*ck is the front page re hashing a the story of the Spirited 380 accident from 1.5 years ago....? 

Its not   on the frontpage as far I can see - but fresh in the FB Sailing A  - to me it looked like a new accident at first... 

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well, it happened pretty near to where the Orca incidents have been occurring.

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Does that boat have escape hatches?

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On 11/13/2020 at 7:35 AM, PIL66 - XL2 said:

Very sad news for sure 

And speaking of tragedies.... The the f*ck is the front page re hashing a the story of the Spirited 380 accident from 1.5 years ago....? 

PIL66 , was there an official enquiry or coroners findings published as to what went wrong. It’s been a while with nothing .

Would hate to see a repeat for the sake of a few findings published to assist other catamaran sailors.

As you are well aware there have been 3 x 380 to capsized. Kangaroo Island, Stockton Bight, and Lake Macquarie.

Did we hear from the designer at all?

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38 minutes ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

PIL66 , was there an official enquiry or coroners findings published as to what went wrong. It’s been a while with nothing .

Would hate to see a repeat for the sake of a few findings published to assist other catamaran sailors.

As you are well aware there have been 3 x 380 to capsized. Kangaroo Island, Stockton Bight, and Lake Macquarie.

Did we hear from the designer at all?

I've heard nothing

 

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How does a boat like this capsize from hitting a submerged object?  Does it trip going down a wave or something?  Hard to understand the physics here especially given the crew report of sailing under-canvassed in 16-20.

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It happens when they are over powered for the conditions.

They have a 16.5m stick on a 11.7m boat.

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56 minutes ago, astro said:

It happens when they are over powered for the conditions.

They have a 16.5m stick on a 11.7m boat.

I’m guessing you’re talking about the 380.  A TS5 is 15.24m with a mast height of 20m.

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1 hour ago, HotCarNut said:

I’m guessing you’re talking about the 380.  A TS5 is 15.24m with a mast height of 20m.

Yeah, wrong boat.

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2 hours ago, HotCarNut said:
3 hours ago, astro said:

It happens when they are over powered for the conditions.

They have a 16.5m stick on a 11.7m boat.

I’m guessing you’re talking about the 380.  A TS5 is 15.24m with a mast height of 20m

Same ratio mast height to LOA at ~ 1.4. But bigger boat will always be more difficult to pitchpole/capsize in any case?

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31 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Same ratio mast height to LOA at ~ 1.4. But bigger boat will always be more difficult to pitchpole/capsize in any case?

I have spent time on cats 38 and 45 feet.  Because they just slip through the water easier and they generate larger rig loadings with the wider beam, they usually reduce the rig size to produce a really stable safe platform.

Even then, sailing/racing at night on multi-hulls is a very different experience in risk management.  The penalty for not seeing and getting hit with a squall with the rags up on a mono is a knock-down, on a mutlihull it can be a capsize.

Not sure about the bigger boats being more difficult to put in the piss, you are probably right but it just depends on the circumstances.

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10 hours ago, Sidecar said:

Same ratio mast height to LOA at ~ 1.4. But bigger boat will always be more difficult to pitchpole/capsize in any case?

Interesting ratios for some of these boats:

380 ~1.4
TS5 ~1.3
GB68 (regatta) ~1.4
GB68 (cruising) ~1.2
HH66 (turbo) ~1.5
HH66 (cruising) ~1.3

I wonder if the beam ratio plays a role too...

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38 minutes ago, HotCarNut said:

Interesting ratios for some of these boats:

380 ~1.4
TS5 ~1.3
GB68 (regatta) ~1.4
GB68 (cruising) ~1.2
HH66 (turbo) ~1.5
HH66 (cruising) ~1.3

I wonder if the beam ratio plays a role too...

The TS is quite wide for its length. One of the main reasons it’s so fast. I’d think beam is more important than length, it’s hard to imagine going ass over teakettle. It’s easy to imagine going over sideways. 

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43 minutes ago, soma said:

The TS is quite wide for its length. One of the main reasons it’s so fast. I’d think beam is more important than length, it’s hard to imagine going ass over teakettle. It’s easy to imagine going over sideways. 

TS5 is 8,6 meters wide, GB68 is 9,12 and HH66 8,7. So yeah, it is wide!

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     So you hit something that causes rapid deceleration or change of heading and/or damage to hull(s) or appendages which leads to deceleration pitchpole or increased TWS due to that deceleration or different angular exposure due to directional change from the impact or lack of control from appendage damage etc,etc, etc.

     Not enough information on the incident to make any determination so it's all conjecture. 

     Two reefs but how much foreword of the mast? The capsized shot shows some swell but how much and how long after the incident was that picture taken. Lack of underwater damage save the missing board and high freeboard indicating no hull punctures suggests she sailed over and 16 - 20 with a big reacher and a broach on a light boat might be enough.

     Conjecture on beam ratio/rig height without displacement or prismatic is grasping at straws too.

     That's a fine boat representing the current development of fast, fun, offshore cats so let's hope there are some lessons learned when more specific information emerges.

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4 hours ago, soma said:

The TS is quite wide for its length. One of the main reasons it’s so fast. I’d think beam is more important than length, it’s hard to imagine going ass over teakettle. It’s easy to imagine going over sideways. 

 

Soma I suspect you have more time in cats than I ever will, but with all due respect, it’s not terribly hard to pitchpole a cat.

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8 hours ago, HotCarNut said:

Interesting ratios for some of these boats:

380 ~1.4
TS5 ~1.3
GB68 (regatta) ~1.4
GB68 (cruising) ~1.2
HH66 (turbo) ~1.5
HH66 (cruising) ~1.3

I wonder if the beam ratio plays a role too...

I have had a similar incident but not at night and no fatalities ...

Beam ratio absolutely plays a part ....  my boat is a racing boat and is close to 1.5 with low volume in the bow and large roach in the main so not surprised that when it went over it was more pitch pole than capsize ..(A bit of both really). 

The TS5 is a safe ratio and a well proven fast ocean cruiser that can be raced so a safe boat in my opinion.

it would be great to get the actual reasons for this capsize for all to learn and hopefully help avoid future incidences but unfortunately we rarely get the actual blow by blow, warts and all account due to either an ongoing investigation from police and or insurance (In my case)  Sometimes those that were there just don't want to talk for whatever reasons as that's their right.
Sailing the worlds oceans is never totally safe regardless of the boat and in life accidents happen so the secret is how to limit it to an acceptable percentage.... for me it's risk Vs mental reward in racing... but i learned recently in my crash that I risked others for my reward which is not acceptable and I regret that and have learned from it.
I believe a bigger problem now that impacts us is No.1... the shear quantity of inexperience people now out cruising the world. It seems with youtube the new phenomenon is to buy a boat with a GPS and go with next to no real time sailing / traveling miles under your belt and No.2.... The amount of large floating objects in the ocean ready to take you out at any time. This boat is now part of that problem and should be removed.

I hope the boat will be recovered and if so we will hear more .... 

Condolences to the family 

 

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11 hours ago, HotCarNut said:

380 ~1.4
TS5 ~1.3

Apologies.

My eyesight is failing me.... I misread 1.31 for 1.37 and then rounded up instead of down.

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On 11/16/2020 at 1:21 PM, mookiesurfs said:

 

Soma I suspect you have more time in cats than I ever will, but with all due respect, it’s not terribly hard to pitchpole a cat.

A fast cruising cat mostly definitely does not like to pitchpole. I've buried the hulls to the mid crossbeam and it did not even lift it's rear at all. I think it's more a function of weight  and CG.

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On 11/18/2020 at 5:09 PM, mpenman said:

A fast cruising cat mostly definitely does not like to pitchpole. I've buried the hulls to the mid crossbeam and it did not even lift it's rear at all. I think it's more a function of weight  and CG.

Hallucine even has automatic sheet release system: https://www.yachtingworld.com/sailing-across-atlantic/catamaran-sailing-multihulls-arc-126773

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I tried to find recent info on this one but didn't find much ..

If the cat was under powered and 20 knts of wind, I really struggle to understand what really happened even with a UFO, and especially considering that no major damage can be ween in the pic.

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On 11/21/2020 at 3:47 PM, Kenny Dumas said:

Orcas Cowtipping

That is funny right there.  Wonder how many will get that.  Thought cow tipping was a NJ thing.

 

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10 minutes ago, Wess said:

That is funny right there.  Wonder how many will get that.  Thought cow tipping was a NJ thing.

 

Rogue wave ?

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16 hours ago, Upp3 said:

Good article. Perhaps the answer is related to this quote: “For him, there is full speed ahead, or nothing!”

Makes me less certain they really did run the 2nd reef in 16-18 TWS. 

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5 hours ago, EarthBM said:

Good article. Perhaps the answer is related to this quote: “For him, there is full speed ahead, or nothing!”

Makes me less certain they really did run the 2nd reef in 16-18 TWS. 

Last speed on Marinetraffic: Speed/Course: 9.5 kn / 239 °

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:5777862/mmsi:227894280/imo:0/vessel:HALLUCINE

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I an accident one usually finds that more than one thing har joined forces to make the result; here I can think of a whale - dont make much marks ,   a rought wave - or a sudden burst of wind - from an other angle -  or combination of the two last.... as the watchman is missing it   can be hard to find out exactly what happend . Is the boat salvaged? 

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I apologize for making light of this tragedy and my condolences to those who loved him. The perils of not reading the whole thread. 
I’m so sorry 

 

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