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Jules

Installing Sanitation Hose On A Barbed Fitting

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Replacing the sanitation hoses with Shields Poly-X.  The holding tank has a metal barbed fitting.  The hose has to sweep in from deep under the cabin berth, which makes it difficult to get a hand around it.  I can't get the hose more than 1/2" on to the fitting.

I tried soaping it.  I tried heating it.  I still can't get past that 1/2" mark.

I used a heat gun at 4000 but that started to melt the end of the hose and flared it out, thus the 1/2" that goes on the fitting.  I dropped it to 3000 but was being cautious not to melt anything.  When it was warm to the touch I tried getting it on but it wouldn't budge.

Any ideas what to try next?

Thanks,
Julie

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Did you try putting glycerine or similar on the barbed fitting?

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I have resorted to grinding off some of the "barb" in the past. There is no standard on fitting diameter, different co's will have different OD's to thier fittings

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4 minutes ago, IStream said:

Did you try putting glycerine or similar on the barbed fitting?

I used dish soap.  The problem is I can't seem to get the hose to expand over the fitting.  It just stops dead.  It's probably in part because I lack the strength and in part access to the hose is limited.  I can't get my hands behind it because it's in that cutout.

I tried heating the fitting and the outside of the hose.  That got me another 1/4". 
HeadHose_002.jpg.551abc613aca0bc44222bc525926217b.jpg

I'm working on some means of prying the hose toward the fitting from behind.  Getting something like a pry bar and trying to get some leverage there.

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That's a difficult geometry for sure. As Longy mentioned, the fitting just might be a bit too large. Might I suggest you replace the barbed fitting with one that's spec'd for the hose and put it on a 45" to get a better angle on it?

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4 minutes ago, IStream said:

Might I suggest you replace the barbed fitting with one that's spec'd for the hose and put it on a 45" to get a better angle on it?

If my pry bar attempt doesn't work, that may be the next step. 

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WD40 inside the hose end

 

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Well, that is obviously the wrong barb fitting no matter what it is labeled as. For difficult fits on proper barbs I soak the hose end in hot water. For PVC the temp is somewhat greater than a spa but definitely far from boiling. It takes a few minutes of soaking for plastic to respond to the heat. The heat needs to soak all the way into the reinforcing material. Only soak the part that meets the barb. Heat gun does not work well. Probably pointless if the reinforcing is steel...

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1 minute ago, El Boracho said:

Well, that is obviously the wrong barb fitting no matter what it is labeled as. For difficult fits on proper barbs I soak the hose end in hot water. For PVC the temp is somewhat greater than a spa but definitely far from boiling. It takes a few minutes of soaking for plastic to respond to the heat. The heat needs to soak all the way into the reinforcing material. Only soak the part that meets the barb. Heat gun does not work well. Probably pointless if the reinforcing is steel...

Yes, it's steel reinforced.  Looks like I'll be replacing the fitting.  Fingers crossed it comes off without damaging the tank threads.

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If it's a bronze fitting you could try to sand it down a bit to knock the barb profile down. 2' of 80grit double sticky should do it.  That's essentially what you will be buying in the new king nipple fitting.  Hose fittings suck as there are way too many profiles,I usually do a tentative fit in the store.  If you can get the profile down then soap it again and see if you can get a strap on the hose and a block purchase or come along pulling to the fitting.  If you get tension on it then working the hose back and forth will bring on the fitting.

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1 hour ago, Jules said:

Replacing the sanitation hoses with Shields Poly-X.  The holding tank has a metal barbed fitting.  The hose has to sweep in from deep under the cabin berth, which makes it difficult to get a hand around it.  I can't get the hose more than 1/2" on to the fitting.

I tried soaping it.  I tried heating it.  I still can't get past that 1/2" mark.

I used a heat gun at 4000 but that started to melt the end of the hose and flared it out, thus the 1/2" that goes on the fitting.  I dropped it to 3000 but was being cautious not to melt anything.  When it was warm to the touch I tried getting it on but it wouldn't budge.

Any ideas what to try next?

Thanks,
Julie

Something wrong 

hose fits over a barb with a snug fit , then is compressed with a clamp 

if your boat is European , measure the OD of the hose  barb, it may be to large 

euopean hose is measured in mm in 5 mm steps 

20, 25 , 30 , 35 , 40mm...

American   hose is in inches 

1.5 inch will use a 38 mm hose barb

1.5 inch hose will not fit over  a 40 mm hose barb 

measure your hose barb

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, SASSAFRASS said:

If it's a bronze fitting you could try to sand it down a bit to knock the barb profile down. 2' of 80grit double sticky should do it.  That's essentially what you will be buying in the new king nipple fitting.  Hose fittings suck as there are way too many profiles,I usually do a tentative fit in the store.  If you can get the profile down then soap it again and see if you can get a strap on the hose and a block purchase or come along pulling to the fitting.  If you get tension on it then working the hose back and forth will bring on the fitting.

Haven't checked it but it's probably stainless.  It doesn't feel or look like aluminum.

West Marine has a Shields straight sanitation fitting that has no barbs.  So maybe they don't recommend barb fittings to be used with their hose.  Before I make that trip, I need to see if the barbed plastic 900 fitting I have at the pump out end will work.  It better because WM doesn't sell 900 Shields fittings.

EDIT: The fittings are only available online and I was able to find a 900 Shields fitting.  Time to find something else to keep me busy today.

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Verify sizing of barb as above.   Then use a water based lubricant (oil base can degrade hose) and stick hose end in boiled water for 30 seconds to a minute.   Than have at it.  Sanitation hose is the worst.  

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Keep trying, swear a lot, try to find a body position that lets you get two hands on it.  It looks like there is some corrosion on the barbs, if so, sand as above and apply lots of lubricant - dish soap is a good start but vaseline might be the way to go in spite of concerns about non-water-based lube.  Definitely stick the end deep in boiling water before attempting to stick it on.  If heating, heat the hose far enough back that the hose can expand not just at the end.

Worst case, there are tube expanders for this size of tubing:  https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/oem-tail-pipe-expander-1-1-2-in-2-7-16-in-1250045p.1250046.html?gclsrc=ds&gclsrc=ds#store=636

These things are always fucking stubborn, until they finally give in.  Good luck.

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1 hour ago, Rain Man said:

dish soap is a good start but vaseline might be the way to go in spite of concerns about non-water-based lube

Nope. Don't use WD40 or Vaseline. Both are petroleum based and are to be avoided unless the hose is rated for fuel/oil etc. It tends to swell the hose material.

What you want is a water based lubricant.  K-Y jelly. Seriously.

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1 minute ago, Zonker said:

Nope. Don't use WD40 or Vaseline. Both are petroleum based and are to be avoided unless the hose is rated for fuel/oil etc. It tends to swell the hose material.

What you want is a water based lubricantK-Y jelly. Seriously.

^^^this...

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I'll second KY jelly.  Also what helped a lot, when I did mine was to stick the end of the hose into boiling water for a few minutes until the hose was heated through and through.   That made all the difference

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56 minutes ago, Zonker said:

What you want is a water based lubricant.  K-Y jelly. Seriously.

Be sure to explain to your S.O. why you have a tube of it on board.

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I dip the end in hot water for 20-30 seconds then push it on. I use Teflon lube, and like others I have had to grind/file some barbs down to get the hose on.

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Yeah I've used a pot of boiling water carried (with a lid) to the install location. Dip hose end for at least a minute.

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Be sure to explain to your S.O. why you have a tube of it on board.

I had to explain to my daughter what it was for.  I tried to deflect but she wouldn't  have it.  So I went into a bit of detail and that stopped the inquiry pretty quickly.  I think she was about 11 or 12 at the time

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25 minutes ago, py26129 said:

I had to explain to my daughter what it was for.  I tried to deflect but she wouldn't  have it.  So I went into a bit of detail and that stopped the inquiry pretty quickly.  I think she was about 11 or 12 at the time

"EWWWW"

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There is a trick I have used to shape PVC tubing. Fill the tube with hot sand and it becomes a noodle. Shape it, let it cool, and pour the sand out. 

 
In Your case I would use two pieces of poly x, a short piece to get it on the hose barb and get past the curve then a poly x connector to the long piece. When filling the short piece with sand be sure to use a metal funnel as the hot sand will melt a plastic one. The sand gets much hotter than water.

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If the hose barb will back out of the tank, you might try installing the barb into the hose, and then reinstalling the barb and hose as a unit.  

Sometimes impossible locations, that's how it was put together the first time, even though occasionally you need a helper on the other end of the hose to give it a twist, when it's wire reinforced stuff.

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There is a special tool for heating this tubing, it's the shape of a cone and warms the inside, It does such a good job at softening the pipe that I've accidentally put 1-1/4" pipe on 1-1/2" fitting before. I would have to dig it out of my tool box but it looks like a curling iron but with a long tapered cone on it.  

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Not sure if it was mentioned but when heating with a gun or torch you need to direct into the ID of the hose not the exterior. Have had to instal Large spiral wound stuff before 6" plus. By holding the heat away and working the interior it will soften.  The heat makes the surface have a ton of friction and want to grab on everything.  Maybe another go of heat and some water base lube applied on the hose ID and barbed fitting will get you taken care of.

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4 hours ago, RImike said:

it looks like a curling iron but with a long tapered cone on it. 

It's for colonscopies too?

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1 minute ago, Zonker said:

It's for colonscopies too?

I suppose, but you won't be able to sit down after for a few weeks, nothing like internal 3rd degree burns.....

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6 hours ago, RImike said:

There is a special tool for heating this tubing, it's the shape of a cone and warms the inside, It does such a good job at softening the pipe that I've accidentally put 1-1/4" pipe on 1-1/2" fitting before. I would have to dig it out of my tool box but it looks like a curling iron but with a long tapered cone on it.  

There you go Jules - an opportunity to buy a new tool.

Gotta love that.

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On 11/17/2020 at 3:02 PM, Rain Man said:

Keep trying, swear a lot, try to find a body position that lets you get two hands on it.  It looks like there is some corrosion on the barbs, if so, sand as above and apply lots of lubricant - dish soap is a good start but vaseline might be the way to go in spite of concerns about non-water-based lube.  Definitely stick the end deep in boiling water before attempting to stick it on.  If heating, heat the hose far enough back that the hose can expand not just at the end

I actually thought about that muffler pipe expander. 

I also have to sheepishly admit I never looked all that hard at the barbed fitting before I said it was metal.  When I went to remove it, I discovered it was plastic.  These old eyes are forever misleading me.  And yeah, I could have easily filed it down.  But since the new parts are already on the way, I'll just use them.  Maybe Shields uses a material for their fittings that matches the permeation resistance of their hose.

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14 hours ago, SloopJonB said:
21 hours ago, RImike said:

There is a special tool for heating this tubing, it's the shape of a cone and warms the inside, It does such a good job at softening the pipe that I've accidentally put 1-1/4" pipe on 1-1/2" fitting before. I would have to dig it out of my tool box but it looks like a curling iron but with a long tapered cone on it.  

There you go Jules - an opportunity to buy a new tool.

Don't tempt me! 

When I was running some PEX pipe I saw there is a tool that expands the pipe for their expansion fitting.  It's a couple hundred bucks.  I came close!

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1 hour ago, Jules said:

Maybe Shields uses a material for their fittings that matches the permeation resistance of their hose.

Those shields sanitation fittings with no barbs are the easiest on/off for their sanitation hose.  Two quality hose clamps and certainly no leakage for me, even without barbs. I would assume that the material (fiberglass reinforced nylon) should be pretty good at preventing smell permeation.     

Straight Sanitation Hose Fitting, 1-1/2" MP Thread

If the old one was an off-the shelf PVC for 1.5" hose with barbs - yes those are a royal PITA to get any hose over the barbs without heat and lube.  Once installed forget about getting the hose back off without cutting, swearing and bleeding.  

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7 minutes ago, yoyo said:

If the old one was an off-the shelf PVC for 1.5" hose with barbs - yes those are a royal PITA to get any hose over the barbs without heat and lube.  Once installed forget about getting the hose back off without cutting, swearing and bleeding.

It probably was the off-the-shelf variety.  I didn't have any problem getting the old one off because it was a rubber coupling that connected to ABS pipe. 

The Shields Poly-X has spring steel wire spiraled around it.  I doubt anything other than some specially made tool would expand it sufficiently to get it over the old barbed fitting.  It stopped cold right when it hit the spiraled wire. 

That picture you posted is what I ordered, one straight and one 900.

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On 11/17/2020 at 11:59 PM, Plumbean said:

Probably too late, but could also switch to the Raritan SaniFlex hose.  Much more forgiving.

Another vote for Sani-flex. I had to make some tight bends and shove it onto a barb. Easier to work with.

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The 900 elbow came today.  It went on like butter.

To get the run from the head to the Y-valve required some fairly tight bends but the hose handled it pretty well.  No signs of kinking.  All that's left now is the run from the Y-valve to the tank.  Just need that straight fitting.

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On 11/20/2020 at 2:44 PM, Jules said:

The 900 elbow came today.  It went on like butter.

To get the run from the head to the Y-valve required some fairly tight bends but the hose handled it pretty well.  No signs of kinking.  All that's left now is the run from the Y-valve to the tank.  Just need that straight fitting.

I spent half of saturday getting a prop off that had been on for 20+ years and the other half getting some wet exhaust hose that's being used for cockpit drains off their fittings. Not barbed, but threaded (for no good reason - the hose is a press fit over the fitting). as I contorted myself in and out of the engine compartment trying to get leverage on these hose ends, your ordeal kept coming to mind, as well as the dreaded thought that I will *never* get these hoses back on :). Now I have hope ;)

 

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7 minutes ago, ryley said:

I spent half of saturday getting a prop off that had been on for 20+ years and the other half getting some wet exhaust hose that's being used for cockpit drains off their fittings. Not barbed, but threaded (for no good reason - the hose is a press fit over the fitting). as I contorted myself in and out of the engine compartment trying to get leverage on these hose ends, your ordeal kept coming to mind, as well as the dreaded thought that I will *never* get these hoses back on :). Now I have hope ;)

I had one hose left to replace - the one that runs from the Y valve to the seacock.  It's only 14" long.  But no way it was coming off without cutting it. 

As I ran the razor knife over it, water began to ooze.  The seacock is closed.  The Y valve is closed to the seacock.  No way there should be pressure.  When I went to tighten the valve it wouldn't budge.  SHIT!  Of all the things I've learned about seawater vs freshwater, working the seacocks regularly isn't one of them. 

No idea how badly that valve is leaking.  And since we're going to pull the boat soon for bottom paint and some maintenance, I just put the hose clamps back on.  But it was still dripping.  So I took a rubber coupling, split it lengthwise and wrapped a few hose clamps around the whole thing.  It still leaks.  And no way that Shileds Poly X is going over the fitting on the seacock to do a quicky hose changeout.  We may be pulling the boat sooner than planned...

It's always something.

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interesting. when I was winterizing the water system, that's when I found the rotten cockpit drain hose. I leaned on it and it split - not much, but enough for a little spurt of water to come out. I closed the seacock (marelon - still need to exercise them but a little more forgiving), leaned on the hose again and more water spurted out. I was panicking a little until I remembered that these drains are under the water line, so even with the seacock fully closed I had a column of water inside the hose that was still going to come out, especially given the 1 3/4" diameter of the drain hose.

Fortunately (for me) the boat was being pulled so I was able to do all my contortions on dry land.

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On 11/23/2020 at 3:29 PM, ryley said:

interesting. when I was winterizing the water system, that's when I found the rotten cockpit drain hose. I leaned on it and it split - not much, but enough for a little spurt of water to come out. I closed the seacock (marelon - still need to exercise them but a little more forgiving), leaned on the hose again and more water spurted out. I was panicking a little until I remembered that these drains are under the water line, so even with the seacock fully closed I had a column of water inside the hose that was still going to come out, especially given the 1 3/4" diameter of the drain hose.

Fortunately (for me) the boat was being pulled so I was able to do all my contortions on dry land.

Not that anyone asked, but here's how this all turned out. I went to Defender for the hose. I'm a Defender 1st member. I went with Trident 250/100 1.75" ID exhaust hose, which retails for $19/foot and I needed about 15', so $285. Defender's price is $13.95 and D1st is $11.70, so now I'm down to $176. BUT since the two pieces they found me were the ends of reels, there was another 15% off, which gets me down to $150 for the job, saving $135 off retail. I do really like those guys.

However, the ease with which this hose went on compared to how hard they were to get off makes me wonder just how much variation there is in IDs between manufacturers - the original hoses were Shields. Everything is double-clamped and I gave the hoses the yank test and nothing seems to move, but I won't be able to test the watertightness until I can drag some water up to the cockpit and flood the hoses with the seacocks closed.

Overall, though, I'm almost embarrassed that my experience went so much smoother than Jules's ;)

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I had the opposite problem on my French boat; the IDs of the fittings were just a little smaller than the Green Stripe 101 hose I bought because the salesman told me it was what they sold to all the charter boats. The 101 is steel wire reinforced and, even with doubled up, super strong T bolt clamps, I couldn't prevent leaks. I finally wound self sticking rigging tape around the fittings, worked the hose on over that and screwed the clamps down hard. 2 years and, fingers crossed, still no leaks. I pass this on for what it's worth in case anyone has a similar problem.

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The usual method is to pull a bit of the wire out and clamp the unreinforced part of the hose, definitely on rubber but might be mixed results on plastics depending on manufacturer

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