Are You a Socialist ?

[Ease the sheet. 1,285]

5 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

You could always use it to fish for the 5 thousand

i hate dealing with the general public. actually i hate people in general.

 

if i was king for a day there would be no poverty and no starvation. and it wouldn't be achieved by increasing the food supply......

[Jules 1,870]

3 hours ago, Quotidian Tom said:

Why? I'm just trying to help Jules with his greed problem and help charities at the same time. What could be wrong with that?

She doesn't have a problem with greed.  It's the people who can never get enough who have the problem.

[AJ Oliver 1,178]

Reminds me of an old leftie organizers' joke . .  

"I love all of humanity, but I just can't stand people!!" 

2 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

i hate dealing with the general public. actually i hate people in general.

 

[JimBowie 332]

[AJ Oliver 1,178]

A note on the discussion above - 

As several of you imply, co-ops and employee ownership 

are versions of socialism 

that do not require a strong central government or central planning. 

Rural electric co-ops now serve 40 million Americans, in spite of all the 

big energy lawyers and corrupt pols trying to dismantle them. 

In our immediate area, several good sized business were turned over the the employees 

upon the retirement of the owners  . 

We salute them as noble socialists  

[Venom 8]

34 minutes ago, JimBowie said:

[AJ Oliver 1,178]

And furthermore, on the issue of health care, 

we have a number of real world systems out there to learn from: 

Canada's M4A includes mostly private or non-govt owned facilities. 

It is similar to our Medicare, which works decently. 

Britain's system is full-on commie: all the facilities are govt owned, and all employees work for the national government. 

The US Veterans Admin is very similar to the British system - i.e., commie 

But the VA gets better outcomes at lower costs than either private insurance or Medicare. 

And would somebody please flick Venom? 

On very very rare occasions, I was faced with students who aimed only to disrupt - 

they were summarily ejected 

[Venom 8]

27 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

And furthermore, on the issue of health care, 

we have a number of real world systems out there to learn from: 

Canada's M4A includes mostly private or non-govt owned facilities. 

It is similar to our Medicare, which works decently. 

Britain's system is full-on commie: all the facilities are govt owned, and all employees work for the national government. 

The US Veterans Admin is very similar to the British system - i.e., commie 

But the VA gets better outcomes at lower costs than either private insurance or Medicare. 

And would somebody please flick Venom? 

On very very rare occasions, I was faced with students who aimed only to disrupt - 

they were summarily ejected 

I agree with your assessment of the health care system. 

 Flicked for what, AJ? It's a meme AJ it's not reality, fake news, etc. etc. poor taste maybe but harmless, you got triggered.

You're not my teacher and this is not a middle school classroom, AJ.

Get a grip.

[AJ Oliver 1,178]

On 11/27/2020 at 2:24 PM, Burning Man said:

The part about distributing the "undesirable" job among the many is the most laughable part of this screed. 

But then why does anyone change diapers?  Because we pay them a huge amount ? 

Nope, they (mostly women) do it because it needs to be done. 

That is socialism 

[AJ Oliver 1,178]

11 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Capitalism is about "opportunity", not outcomes.  If one does not take advantage of the opportunities that exist, then that is on them - not capitalism itself.  Socialism otoh is about outcomes.  

Agree in part, but don't just give us those tired Heritage Foundation bromides. 

The FACT is that "opportunity" is crashing - there is MUCH less of it now. 

Among all the failures of modern capitalism, that is probably the worst. 

Denmark tops the World Economic Forum's new Global Social Mobility Index. 17 of the top 20 most socially mobile societies are in Europe. The US is 27th while China is 45th and India is 76th.Jan 20, 2020

It was not always thus . . 

[Burning Man 746]

7 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I could be an ass and screech at you: "Apologize you dumb rightie wingnut lying asshole!! You made a bet, now you have to get OUT of this forum for ten fucking years!!" but I just came in from a nice sunset boat ride and am having a perfect beer; besides I try to never act like that unless it's 1- in person and I have some leverage to enforce it and 2- it has to be very rare and very well deserved.

Live and learn. Or don't. Your call.

- DSK

You're such a coward.  Can't even act like a man and fess up when you're wrong.  I honestly feel sorry for you.  

[Chris in Santa Cruz, CA 380]

Basic needs are not best served by unregulated private providers. Basic economic truth. Has nothing to do with labels. Water, electircity, healthcare, mail service, and public transit are baic services and should be planned and regulated. This does not make me a socialist. 

[AJ Oliver 1,178]

1 minute ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

Basic needs are not best served by unregulated private providers. Basic economic truth. Has nothing to do with labels. Water, electircity, healthcare, mail service, and public transit are baic services and should be planned and regulated. This does not make me a socialist. 

Well, others would agree with you. 

And I would also agree that the vid was too tough on our liberal friends when it argued that they did not care all that much about M4A, etc. 

In fact I know lots of liberals who believe fiercely in M4A, and have fought for it for years.  

[Chris in Santa Cruz, CA 380]

8 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Well, others would agree with you. 

And I would also agree that the vid was too tough on our liberal friends when it argued that they did not care all that much about M4A, etc. 

In fact I know lots of liberals who believe fiercely in M4A, and have fought for it for years.  

The waste of money and lives with our current system of middle men and blatant over charging for pharmaceutical products is just not supportable in any way. Medical care is applied science and competition assumes some facts are better than others? Uhhh, no. Competition drives providers to sell less service for more money. Whoops!

[Fah Kiew Tu 1,898]

7 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

You know it's not that simple. In the main, it's the people above I'm talking about. 

Since the introduction of EBA's the workers on the lowers scale, (Under $90,000 PA ) get screwed every 2 years simply because upper management can now control access to Union recruitment and communications.

Howard Died on his laughable "Work choices" Platform but his stench still lingers in "Fairwork".

 

Nothing is simple. I have no problems with unionism, I have big problems with *compulsory* unionism.

You implicitly believe that unionism doesn't work without the compulsion to join. I don't disagree with you.

Where we part company is on the compulsion part. Therefore I won't support it. The vast majority agrees with me as evidenced by the percentage of people outside the public services in unions.

Of course the unions have won most/all the big issues here decades ago - paid leave, paid sick leave, restrictions on firing for no good cause etc etc. Which is why Australia is a far better place to live & work than the USA.

WRT Howard and his overreach - I voted against him on that alone. While I was better off, there was no guarantee that my children would be. Equating the ability to bargain on equal terms between a teenager and employer to a highly skilled IT specialist & employer was utterly mendacious.

I'd not claim to be a socialist but I'm very much in favour of strong curbs on the ability of private enterprise to exploit their position WRT employees, customers and environment.

FKT

[Fah Kiew Tu 1,898]

5 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

i hate dealing with the general public. actually i hate people in general.

 

if i was king for a day there would be no poverty and no starvation. and it wouldn't be achieved by increasing the food supply......

You have a (not so) little list, who never will be missed...

FKT

[Fah Kiew Tu 1,898]

1 hour ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

Basic needs are not best served by unregulated private providers. Basic economic truth. Has nothing to do with labels. Water, electircity, healthcare, mail service, and public transit are baic services and should be planned and regulated. This does not make me a socialist. 

Yes - I took issue with our State government for attempting to privatise (sell) a natural monopoly on the electricity transmission system. It's one thing to sell generating plant if others can join the system but selling the transmission system itself is idiotic - it's a natural monopoly like reticulated water systems & sewage systems. They *never* should be in private hands so as to 'maximise shareholder value'. I cringe when I hear that mantra, it always means they're going to screw the customers & employees.

[Chris in Santa Cruz, CA 380]

1 minute ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yes - I took issue with our State government for attempting to privatise (sell) a natural monopoly on the electricity transmission system. It's one thing to sell generating plant if others can join the system but selling the transmission system itself is idiotic - it's a natural monopoly like reticulated water systems & sewage systems. They *never* should be in private hands so as to 'maximise shareholder value'. I cringe when I hear that mantra, it always means they're going to screw the customers & employees.

And they do! Our power utility has screwed the pooch in a drunken stumble to its own demise. Stopped maintaining the grid and bonused themselves up the wazoo while hundreds died in fires causd by their penny pinching. Fucking insanity.

[Shortforbob 2,021]

4 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Nothing is simple. I have no problems with unionism, I have big problems with *compulsory* unionism.

You implicitly believe that unionism doesn't work without the compulsion to join. I don't disagree with you.

Where we part company is on the compulsion part. Therefore I won't support it. The vast majority agrees with me as evidenced by the percentage of people outside the public services in unions.

Of course the unions have won most/all the big issues here decades ago - paid leave, paid sick leave, restrictions on firing for no good cause etc etc. Which is why Australia is a far better place to live & work than the USA.

WRT Howard and his overreach - I voted against him on that alone. While I was better off, there was no guarantee that my children would be. Equating the ability to bargain on equal terms between a teenager and employer to a highly skilled IT specialist & employer was utterly mendacious.

I'd not claim to be a socialist but I'm very much in favour of strong curbs on the ability of private enterprise to exploit their position WRT employees, customers and environment.

FKT

Then we have no disagreement. I don't agree with compulsory Unionism either.

Like military conscription, who the hell want's anyone in their ranks that have been forced to be there?

Making Scabs join is counterproductive. They have this nasty tendency to vote only if there is something in their direct interests and with employers now demanding majority of members actually voting before they'll consider negotiating, it makes a total mockery of the yea or nay vote. (non voters are counted with the Nay's.)

But those that don't pay their dues should not reap the benefits of union negotiated wages or conditions, they can negotiate on their own.

[Shortforbob 2,021]

I think my gas bills doubled when the Gas and Fuel Corp got sold off. And don't mention Public transport to any Melburnian over 55.

Fucking Myki.

And I used to like owning an Airline

[Burning Man 746]

14 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

5 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

i hate dealing with the general public. actually i hate people in general.

 

if i was king for a day there would be no poverty and no starvation. and it wouldn't be achieved by increasing the food supply......

You have a (not so) little list, who never will be missed...

 

I have the same list.  There are about 6.9 Billion people on it.  

[Shortforbob 2,021]

I try very hard not to

The verdict is still out.

Victorians/Australians/Kiwi's and others in our neck of the woods? At the moment restore my faith. Yay, we're fabulous. 

Americans, with 70,000000 idiots at least, somewhat tip the scale in a gravitationous direction.

[Fah Kiew Tu 1,898]

3 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

I think my gas bills doubled when the Gas and Fuel Corp got sold off. And don't mention Public transport to any Melburnian over 55.

Fucking Myki.

And I used to like owning an Airline

Yeah - but it's a two-edged sword. There are lots and lots of examples of PS run and owned enterprises becoming run by & for the employees with only lip service given to the customers. There needs to be a very strong performance based metric in place WRT actual service delivery. Most of the examples I can think of are decades out of date now but they most certainly did exist and resulted in the closure of the places when governments abandoned them as uncontrollable. The employees shouldn't be allowed to blackmail their way to work salaries, terms and conditions way in excess of private conditions, while subsidised by public taxation revenue. That just takes money from other uses unless you keep jacking up the tax base.

Publicly owned monopolies *should* be better than privately run ones, but sometimes they're worse.

FKT

[Shortforbob 2,021]

I still liked owning an Airline.

(and we got unlimited wine and Prawn cocktails in economy)

[Fah Kiew Tu 1,898]

6 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

I try very hard not to

The verdict is still out.

Victorians/Australians/Kiwi's and others in our neck of the woods? At the moment restore my faith. Yay, we're fabulous. 

Americans, with 70,000000 idiots at least, somewhat tip the scale in a gravitationous direction.

I'd put it more like 7,000,000 to 14,000,000 hard-core unreachable idiots with the rest angry and afraid at what's happened to their future, believing in demagogues and the people/leaders who are making their situation worse. But you don't change them by telling them they're idiots, you change them by changing their circumstances. Decent health care that won't bankrupt them, education for their kids that won't put them into debt for life would be 2 really good places to start.

FKT

[Fah Kiew Tu 1,898]

1 minute ago, Shortforbob said:

I still liked owning an Airline.

(and we got unlimited wine and Prawn cocktails in economy)

I lost an absolute shit-ton of FF points when Ansett went tits-up. Shrug. All came from APS paid air fares so not like it mattered. My work partner had her QANTAS ones still, we had an arrangement that we could use either business lounge depending on what air line we were flying on. We were flying for work a *lot*. One reason why I'm totally over air travel. Last straw was commuting Sydney-LAX-Tucson frequently.

FKT

[Chris in Santa Cruz, CA 380]

2 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I'd put it more like 7,000,000 to 14,000,000 hard-core unreachable idiots with the rest angry and afraid at what's happened to their future, believing in demagogues and the people/leaders who are making their situation worse. But you don't change them by telling them they're idiots, you change them by changing their circumstances. Decent health care that won't bankrupt them, education for their kids that won't put them into debt for life would be 2 really good places to start.

FKT

This is a favorite concept of mine that when people don't have to scrabble and stress about the basics they have time to educate themselves and make more informed decisions economically and politically. This shit scares the poop out of the powerful and their propaganda based shit shows. Diamandis thinks it's inevitable and the information efficiency with smart phones and the Internet means we are just watching the death throes of fear based systems. I like to believe this as much as he does but it's hard when reading news at the micro level.  

[Shortforbob 2,021]

Just now, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

This is a favorite concept of mine that when people don't have to scrabble and stress about the basics they have time to educate themselves and make more informed decisions economically and politically. This shit scares the poop out of the powerful and their propaganda based shit shows. Diamandis thinks it's inevitable and the information efficiency with smart phones and the Internet means we are just watching the death throes of fear based systems. I like to believe this as much as he does but it's hard when reading news at the micro level.  

Uh huh. I was a little sad that my boy is cleaning windows for a "living" ATM.

Last night over dinner we were discussing Revolutionary Europe ..I said "how do you know about the 4th republic (france)" he said with an eyeroll. "Podcasts Mum, what do you think I do all day while cleaning windows?"

For some reason it made me feel much much better. 

 

[Chris in Santa Cruz, CA 380]

4 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Uh huh. I was a little sad that my boy is cleaning windows for a "living" ATM.

Last night over dinner we were discussing Revolutionary Europe ..I said "how do you know about the 4th republic (france)" he said with an eyeroll. "Podcasts Mum, what do you think I do all day while cleaning windows?"

For some reason it made me feel much much better. 

 

That's good news! History is good stuff.

[Shortforbob 2,021]

3 minutes ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

That's good news! History is good stuff.

Just asked Liam for you. There's a lot of detail apparently.

Podcasts

Revolutions- Mike Duncan.

https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/revolutions/id703889772

[Ease the sheet. 1,285]

1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

Then we have no disagreement. I don't agree with compulsory Unionism either.

Like military conscription, who the hell want's anyone in their ranks that have been forced to be there?

Making Scabs join is counterproductive. They have this nasty tendency to vote only if there is something in their direct interests and with employers now demanding majority of members actually voting before they'll consider negotiating, it makes a total mockery of the yea or nay vote. (non voters are counted with the Nay's.)

But those that don't pay their dues should not reap the benefits of union negotiated wages or conditions, they can negotiate on their own.

Non union should pay a bargaining fee to the union. Equal to membership dues over the life of the agreement....

 

[Fah Kiew Tu 1,898]

9 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Non union should pay a bargaining fee to the union. Equal to membership dues over the life of the agreement....

 

I once offered to join the union if they split their membership fees away from their political party affiliation fees/payments.

I don't donate money to the Libs/Nats and I'm not going to do it to the ALP.

Old news, I just do consulting now and not a lot of that. First sign of any hassles at all and I hang it up.

FKT

[Shortforbob 2,021]

11 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Non union should pay a bargaining fee to the union. Equal to membership dues over the life of the agreement....

 

Plus a dollar for postage.

[Fah Kiew Tu 1,898]

1 hour ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

This is a favorite concept of mine that when people don't have to scrabble and stress about the basics they have time to educate themselves and make more informed decisions economically and politically. This shit scares the poop out of the powerful and their propaganda based shit shows. Diamandis thinks it's inevitable and the information efficiency with smart phones and the Internet means we are just watching the death throes of fear based systems. I like to believe this as much as he does but it's hard when reading news at the micro level.  

I just finished an interesting book yesterday - 'Walkaway' by Cory Doctorow. Basically a take on what might happen in the senescence of the current 'scarcity culture' period and how a combination of voluntary collectivism and altruistic development might work - and how the establishment would be terrified about it.

Quite a few things I'd argue with and it lacks nuance, but worth reading IMO. Probably an e-book version out there.

FKT

[Shortforbob 2,021]

Just now, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I once offered to join the union if they split their membership fees away from their political party affiliation fees/payments.

I don't donate money to the Libs/Nats and I'm not going to do it to the ALP.

Old news, I just do consulting now and not a lot of that. First sign of any hassles at all and I hang it up.

FKT

But why should they? 

Employers have their lobby groups and associations that donate to and support  their party. Why shouldn't workers representatives also have access to the ministerial ear? It's already a one sided contest. Employers and industry pay both teams .

 

The unions are simply there to represent there side

[Ease the sheet. 1,285]

5 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I once offered to join the union if they split their membership fees away from their political party affiliation fees/payments.

I don't donate money to the Libs/Nats and I'm not going to do it to the ALP.

Old news, I just do consulting now and not a lot of that. First sign of any hassles at all and I hang it up.

FKT

User pays unions?

Fees for service?

 

It has some merit.

[Fah Kiew Tu 1,898]

9 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

But why should they? 

Employers have their lobby groups and associations that donate to and support  their party. Why shouldn't workers representatives also have access to the ministerial ear? It's already a one sided contest. Employers and industry pay both teams .

 

The unions are simply there to represent there side

If you really believe those 2 situations are analogous there's no point in discussing it.

As I said, I as an individual don't donate money to political parties. I don't outsource that to any 3rd party. Therefore I won't join an organisation that insists on using money for such a purpose.

That's my personal position, I'm not going to change it at this point in life.

FKT

[Saorsa 5]

On 11/27/2020 at 11:54 AM, Jules said:

Maybe "Socialist" needs to be more simply defined as "Greed is not good."

Really?  The whole idea seems based on taking what others have.

 

[Shortforbob 2,021]

47 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Really?  The whole idea seems based on taking what others have.

 

Or giving what others have not. See how this works?

[Venom 8]

1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

Or giving what others have not. See how this works?

You can give all you like, i have no objection, that is and should be your right. If I show up at your door with a gun demanding you give me your car because i don't have one then that's theft. See how that works? 

[Not for nothing 226]

For a good laugh at Socialism watch this: What Socialism Really Looks Like - The Jim Jefferies Show - YouTube

or to really understand it watch this:

Debunked: "Socialism Has Never Worked" - YouTube

[Steam Flyer 4,793]

8 minutes ago, Venom said:

You can give all you like, i have no objection, that is and should be your right. If I show up at your door with a gun demanding you give me your car because i don't have one then that's theft. See how that works? 

How about if I cut taxes on CEOs, and then demand that YOU pay taxes to give welfare to their employees because those workers can't feed or house their families much less afford health care?

- DSK

[Saorsa 5]

3 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Or giving what others have not. See how this works?

I've nothing against charity and contribute to quite a few.

I do object to the government deciding who is deserving.

[Mark K 1,341]

33 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

I've nothing against charity and contribute to quite a few.

I do object to the government deciding who is deserving.

Who should decide? 

[Venom 8]

11 minutes ago, Mark K said:

Who should decide? 

Me. 

[AJ Oliver 1,178]

The vid says that socialists want to "flatten the hierarchy pyramids". 

And they are correct. Not only to more democratic companies work better, 

but families and sailing clubs do too. 

Lots of empirical evidence for this .  . 

Egalitarian families are generally happier, less stressed, have lower conflict, and are fairer to working women. Furthermore, modern parents who work together to model a more egalitarian relationship and family system for their children break the cycle of rigid gender roles of previous generations.

[Mark K 1,341]

33 minutes ago, Venom said:

Me. 

Then you wish this country to be a dictatorship.  

[JimBowie 332]

No. I am no socialist...but the asshole pictured in my profile pic and his 72,000,000 enablers are commie pinko basturds.

[Steam Flyer 4,793]

1 hour ago, Saorsa said:

I've nothing against charity and contribute to quite a few.

I do object to the government deciding who is deserving.

This is America

WE ARE "the government"

- DSK

[AJ Oliver 1,178]

I used to kick these ideas around in my classes - 

and would pose the question, "What would you do for a career if money were not as issue? 

That is, if you didn't have to worry about it."  

The responses were pretty amazing: Many said they would work in child care or early education. 

Lots wanted to coach kids in sports, or do sports training. 

One young lady already had her dream job identified. She said the most fun she ever had working was 

waiting tables in a neighborhood breakfast diner - a chatty place in Lakewood, Ohio. 

I wonder what she is doing now? 

Do many college classes make room for thought-provoking discussions? 

[Ishmael 5,823]

40 minutes ago, Mark K said:

Then you wish this country to be a dictatorship.  

That's been pretty obvious since he launched this latest sock.

[Rain Man 748]

15 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

And furthermore, on the issue of health care, 

we have a number of real world systems out there to learn from: 

Canada's M4A includes mostly private or non-govt owned facilities. 

...

To clarify, in Canada, the hospitals are not really private as all are owned by non-profit foundations or religious charities, but are all funded by government. They can raise money on their own, and often do in order to fund upgrades to equipment.  They also receive government capital funding for expansion. There are no truly private for-profit hospitals to my knowledge. 

Doctor's clinics, on the other hand, are privately-owned, for-profit businesses.  Doctors are, for the most part, paid on a fee-for-service basis, and fund their clinics from those fees.  There are a few doctors on the payroll of the hospitals working as hospitalists.

[Fah Kiew Tu 1,898]

1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

I used to kick these ideas around in my classes - 

and would pose the question, "What would you do for a career if money were not as issue? 

That is, if you didn't have to worry about it."  

The responses were pretty amazing: Many said they would work in child care or early education. 

Lots wanted to coach kids in sports, or do sports training. 

One young lady already had her dream job identified. She said the most fun she ever had working was 

waiting tables in a neighborhood breakfast diner - a chatty place in Lakewood, Ohio. 

I wonder what she is doing now? 

Do many college classes make room for thought-provoking discussions? 

They did when I went but I was studying science. If you couldn't hold your own in a discussion you weren't well respected.

WRT dream jobs I spent 3/4 of my working life doing work I'd have done for free, so that was good. The other 1/4 made me shitloads of money and as soon as I had my 'fuck you' quota I quit - because I do have the concept of 'enough'.

As for capitalism - it works when well constrained. I've often advocated controls on public companies on the lines of a max of 2 orders of magnitude between highest paid and lowest paid. Want to raise the CEO payment? Fine - everyone else goes up some as well. Don't like that idea? Don't have the protection of a limited liability company, put all you own on the line if you fuck up, and go for it. You can have the big rewards only if you're willing to take the big risks.

Needless to say this is not popular.

FKT

[Steam Flyer 4,793]

22 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

2 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

....  Do many college classes make room for thought-provoking discussions? 

They did when I went but I was studying science. If you couldn't hold your own in a discussion you weren't well respected.

WRT dream jobs I spent 3/4 of my working life doing work I'd have done for free, so that was good. The other 1/4 made me shitloads of money and as soon as I had my 'fuck you' quota I quit - because I do have the concept of 'enough'.

As for capitalism - it works when well constrained. I've often advocated controls on public companies on the lines of a max of 2 orders of magnitude between highest paid and lowest paid. Want to raise the CEO payment? Fine - everyone else goes up some as well. Don't like that idea? Don't have the protection of a limited liability company, put all you own on the line if you fuck up, and go for it. You can have the big rewards only if you're willing to take the big risks.

Needless to say this is not popular.

Yes and it's one of the dividing lines between a good professor and a GREAT professor... inspiring genuine curiosity and inquiry, initiating open discussions, fostering an intellectual environment for all students. I aspire to this as a sailing instructor, which might seem a little trivial but sailing is connected to every branch of science, and probably almost all other human endeavors as well. You'd be surprised some of the things that students ask about and want to talk about.

Constrained capitalism... yes. Predatory capitalism, crony capitalism, winner-take-all capitalism, that is a dead end. It's been proven that as the level of technology rises, human bondage becomes less profitable. You can't beat people into working for a faceless corporation, and the law is an idiot to grant superior rights to corporations when the money pours into the pockets of individual humans at the top

- DSK

[Fah Kiew Tu 1,898]

3 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Constrained capitalism... yes. Predatory capitalism, crony capitalism, winner-take-all capitalism, that is a dead end. It's been proven that as the level of technology rises, human bondage becomes less profitable. You can't beat people into working for a faceless corporation, and the law is an idiot to grant superior rights to corporations when the money pours into the pockets of individual humans at the top

- DSK

You may have noticed that I'm often more interested in the questions than the answers and have little or no time for people who want to rant but refuse to offer suggestions to be critiqued. They're just grit in the system, of no practical value.

We've all collectively made mistakes in allowing corporations to become too powerful. They need to be banned from making political donations in cash or kind. We also need strict limits on political campaign funding of all types including hard caps on donations by individuals both cash and kind. Sadly I think we're past the point of no return on both fronts and it's going to take a major catastrophe before anything of significance changes.

Oh well interesting times. I'll be back home in 3 days and off sailing ASAP after that. Going from 42C back to 18C is going to be a bit of a shock.

FKT

[Saorsa 5]

6 hours ago, Mark K said:

Who should decide? 

The giver.

[Laker 232]

10 hours ago, Venom said:

You can give all you like, i have no objection, that is and should be your right. If I show up at your door with a gun demanding you give me your car because i don't have one then that's theft. See how that works? 

Prime example of "Tyranny of the Commons" Give, but not enough to solve the problem.

[Zonker 2,427]

4 hours ago, Rain Man said:

in Canada, the hospitals are not really private as all are owned by non-profit foundations or religious charities

I know _some_ are owned by religious charities etc but most I would have thought are managed by provincial health authorities.

i.e.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver_Hospital_and_Health_Sciences_Centre#:~:text=At this point%2C VHHSC operated,the Vancouver Coastal Health Authority.

In 2001, the ownership and operation of VHHSC entities (Vancouver General Hospital, UBC Hospital, George Pearson Centre and G.F. Strong Rehab Centre) was assumed by the Vancouver Coastal Health Authority = who I think is a provincial entity.

 

[Venom 8]

6 hours ago, Mark K said:

Then you wish this country to be a dictatorship.  

No, but I want to be the gatekeeper.

 

12 minutes ago, Laker said:

Prime example of "Tyranny of the Commons" Give, but not enough to solve the problem.

Let's start with "Tyranny and Endless Illegal Drone Wars" and go from there.   

[d'ranger 2,542]

If you enjoy public parks, you might be a socialist.

[Mark K 1,341]

If you love F35s you are a socialist. 

[Olsonist 1,864]

F15s too.

[El Borracho 1,658]

19 minutes ago, Mark K said:

If you love F35s you are a socialist. 

Yea, socialized murder! Who can't love that?

In theory, much of the military might is necessitated by the need to promote capitalism in places where its benefits are not as well appreciated as they are in the boardrooms of the USA. One can argue that if the USA adopted tenets of democratic socialism in its foreign policy such coercion by F-35 might not be so critical.

[AJ Oliver 1,178]

6 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

We've all collectively made mistakes in allowing corporations to become too powerful.

Well, Marx predicted the tendency of capital to concentrate (though he was not the first to see that), 

but the actual monopolization (of the US economy anyway) is stunning and rarely reported on . . 

Up to and including the death industry - funeral homes. 

You probably thought it was all little mom & pop local businesses, right ?  

wrong

[Ishmael 5,823]

55 minutes ago, Mark K said:

If you love F35s you are a socialist. either an executive in aerospace or an idiot.

Modified.

[Chris in Santa Cruz, CA 380]

18 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I just finished an interesting book yesterday - 'Walkaway' by Cory Doctorow. Basically a take on what might happen in the senescence of the current 'scarcity culture' period and how a combination of voluntary collectivism and altruistic development might work - and how the establishment would be terrified about it.

Quite a few things I'd argue with and it lacks nuance, but worth reading IMO. Probably an e-book version out there.

FKT

I will look for this book. Thanks

[Chris in Santa Cruz, CA 380]

7 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

They did when I went but I was studying science. If you couldn't hold your own in a discussion you weren't well respected.

WRT dream jobs I spent 3/4 of my working life doing work I'd have done for free, so that was good. The other 1/4 made me shitloads of money and as soon as I had my 'fuck you' quota I quit - because I do have the concept of 'enough'.

As for capitalism - it works when well constrained. I've often advocated controls on public companies on the lines of a max of 2 orders of magnitude between highest paid and lowest paid. Want to raise the CEO payment? Fine - everyone else goes up some as well. Don't like that idea? Don't have the protection of a limited liability company, put all you own on the line if you fuck up, and go for it. You can have the big rewards only if you're willing to take the big risks.

Needless to say this is not popular.

FKT

Capitalism works as a regulated rules based playing field. No bullies, cheaters, or monopolies allowed. Use regulation to economically motivate competitors to strive to a useful outcome for the populace. Regulate carbon output from power plants and business is stimulated to bring the best cleaning technology to the industry. So what if the consumer pays a little more in the end to heat their home. They get cleaner air for generations to come. Overall an economic win due to reduced healthcare expenses to treat respitory diseases. 

When our elected officials purposely decline to support the kind of legislature above they are abdicating their mandate to manage a society on behalf of the people under the lame excuses of "not raising prices" and "killing jobs". Total corporate greed propaganda.  

[Ishmael 5,823]

2 minutes ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

Capitalism works as a regulated rules based playing field. No bullies, cheaters, or monopolies allowed. Use regulation to economically motivate competitors to strive to a useful outcome for the populace. Regulate carbon output from power plants and business is stimulated to bring the best cleaning technology to the industry. So what if the consumer pays a little more in the end to heat their home. They get cleaner air for generations to come. Overall an economic win due to reduced healthcare expenses to treat respitory diseases. 

When our elected officials purposely decline to support the kind of legislature above they are abdicating their mandate to manage a society on behalf of the people under the lame excuses of "not raising prices" and "killing jobs". Total corporate greed propaganda.  

That's what they are paid to do. All that money floating around is not good for democracy, but it sure is good for the legislators.

[El Borracho 1,658]

46 minutes ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

Capitalism works as a regulated rules based playing field. No bullies, cheaters, or monopolies allowed. ....

Capitalism detests competition. Nor does capitalism especially favor innovation. Ford being my favorite example. Sure the people who are innovators can greatly benefit from capitalism, but it is not the capitalism that drives innovation.

Befuddles me that the typical USA voter-consumer is so complacent about the huge monopolies/duopolies that cost them so much yet deliver so little.

[Olsonist 1,864]

49 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Capitalism detests competition. Nor does capitalism especially favor innovation. Ford being my favorite example. Sure the people who are innovators can greatly benefit from capitalism, but it is not the capitalism that drives innovation.

Befuddles me that the typical USA voter-consumer is so complacent about the huge monopolies/duopolies that cost them so much yet deliver so little.

Sadly, this. Venture capitalist Peter Thiel even  put it as competition is for losers. Generally when you hear fan bois extolling the great virtues of capitalism, you can rest assured that they know nothing about capitalism.

[Shortforbob 2,021]

11 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

I used to kick these ideas around in my classes - 

and would pose the question, "What would you do for a career if money were not as issue? 

That is, if you didn't have to worry about it."  

The responses were pretty amazing: Many said they would work in child care or early education. 

Lots wanted to coach kids in sports, or do sports training. 

One young lady already had her dream job identified. She said the most fun she ever had working was 

waiting tables in a neighborhood breakfast diner - a chatty place in Lakewood, Ohio. 

I wonder what she is doing now? 

Do many college classes make room for thought-provoking discussions? 

And just how much work experience did you're students have? Had they experienced working in a lab at the Zoo? or Restoring old letters or Repairing and designing prothesis? No huge pay here either but a world away from waiting tables.

[Ease the sheet. 1,285]

Something to remember.

Those with the capital aren't necessarily smart or wise with how they use that capital.

 

True capitalism is about the efficient use of capital to produce and provide for the populace.

There's plenty of examples of that being corrupted by stupid "capitalists"

[Not for nothing 226]

1 hour ago, El Boracho said:

Capitalism detests competition. Nor does capitalism especially favor innovation. Ford being my favorite example. Sure the people who are innovators can greatly benefit from capitalism, but it is not the capitalism that drives innovation.

Befuddles me that the typical USA voter-consumer is so complacent about the huge monopolies/duopolies that cost them so much yet deliver so little.

As the Ford Motor Company owner, he became one of the richest and best-known people in the world. He is credited with "Fordism": mass production of inexpensive goods coupled with high wages for workers. Ford had a global vision, with consumerism as the key to peace.

[Fah Kiew Tu 1,898]

14 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

And just how much work experience did you're students have? Had they experienced working in a lab at the Zoo? or Restoring old letters or Repairing and designing prothesis? No huge pay here either but a world away from waiting tables.

Well, if they were poli sci students, probably a lot of experience in the fast food and coffee work field.

Oh sorry, that was post-graduation.

FKT

[Polytelum Tom 1,465]

12 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

We've all collectively made mistakes in allowing corporations to become too powerful. They need to be banned from making political donations in cash or kind.

Hmmm... I KNEW this was naughty.

On 10/19/2020 at 5:19 AM, Quotidian Tom said:

The Hartford Courant $peak$

But I still don't know why. Can you explain?

[Fah Kiew Tu 1,898]

1 minute ago, Quotidian Tom said:

Hmmm... I KNEW this was naughty.

But I still don't know why. Can you explain?

Don't care. Whatever it is I doubt it has any relevance to Australia and therefore it's not my problem. Nor is it likely to change my opinion.

I class you right along with olsonist and a number of others. Great at moaning about how unfair <insert topic here> is but when asked to come up with suggestions for change, it's deflect, deflect, change the subject. You're boring and I've no intention of wasting time on you.

FKT

[chuso007 526]

[chuso007 526]

On 11/27/2020 at 8:56 PM, Mark K said:

A lot of people have been led to believe socialism, communism, and Marxism are freely interchangeable terms.  

Same dog, different collar...

And you can include Fascism and National Socialism in there too. Totaltarian, anti-capitalist and anti-freedom systems designed to eliminate individual rights.

[Polytelum Tom 1,465]

47 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

52 minutes ago, Quotidian Tom said:

Hmmm... I KNEW this was naughty.

But I still don't know why. Can you explain?

Don't care. Whatever it is I doubt it has any relevance to Australia and therefore it's not my problem.

Oh, I thought you were talking to an American when you said "we've all collectively made mistakes in allowing corporations to become too powerful." Didn't realize you were only talking about Australia.

I gather from the "whatever it is" that you didn't read the link. It was an in kind contribution from a corporation to the Biden campaign. You want a SOLution from me? Continue to allow it and challenge people like you who would censor or cen$or it.

[El Borracho 1,658]

Gotta admire the US automakers commitment to building the very same product for 100 years while steadfastly resisting anything but tiny incremental changes. Ford, for but one example) has spent far more capital crushing innovation, progress, competition, democracy, (you name it) than they have with anything resembling progress. Same idea with the banks: direct your capital investments in politicians to crush innovation. The politicians will also rescue your ass when dong the same thing for centuries (to nobody's surprise) regularly runs the bank over. Nobody standing more firmly in the way of internet innovation than AT&T, Verizon, etc. Same thing: buy politicians to crush any nascent competition or  "socialistic" regulation.

Goes on and on...

[Venom 8]

I'll take the socialized medicine in exchange for socialized regime change wars and meddling in every country on the planet. 

Is it a deal? Call me a socialist then! 

[El Borracho 1,658]

4 hours ago, chuso007 said:

Same dog, different collar...

And you can include Fascism and National Socialism in there too. Totaltarian, anti-capitalist and anti-freedom systems designed to eliminate individual rights.

Most capitalistic countries are not democracies. Countries considered to have the highest forms of democratic governments all have significant socialistic-leaning economic policies. Not surprising that voters will vote in their best interest (well educated voters)

[chuso007 526]

16 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Most capitalistic countries are not democracies. Countries considered to have the highest forms of democratic governments all have significant socialistic-leaning economic policies. Not surprising that voters will vote in their best interest (well educated voters)

Really? most dictatorships are socialists though.

Social-democracy is the only "democratic" form of socialism and has worked ok in only a few nordic countries (with a very particular characteristics that do not apply elsewhere).

This is reality of "democratic" socialism in Spain measured by unemployement rates. Red is the socialist party and blue the Popular party (right):

 

[Steam Flyer 4,793]

1 hour ago, El Boracho said:

Gotta admire the US automakers commitment to building the very same product for 100 years while steadfastly resisting anything but tiny incremental changes. Ford, for but one example) has spent far more capital crushing innovation, progress, competition, democracy, (you name it) than they have with anything resembling progress. Same idea with the banks: direct your capital investments in politicians to crush innovation. The politicians will also rescue your ass when dong the same thing for centuries (to nobody's surprise) regularly runs the bank over. Nobody standing more firmly in the way of internet innovation than AT&T, Verizon, etc. Same thing: buy politicians to crush any nascent competition or  "socialistic" regulation.

Goes on and on...

Stifled innovation?!? Shee-it, American car makers led the world in innovation... who put bigger and bigger tail fins on cars?? Huh?

And those brake lights that rippled back & forth!

- DSK

[AJ Oliver 1,178]

11 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

And just how much work experience did you're students have?

Not that much, not that it makes any difference. None were experienced banksters or nuclear scientists either - but some got into those fields later. 

Do you get that some people would rather work in child care, and would do so if they could survive economically by doing so ? 

And I forgot to add that a surprising number of them said their dream job would be cooking for other people. 

[AJ Oliver 1,178]

3 hours ago, chuso007 said:

Social-democracy is the only "democratic" form of socialism and has worked ok in only a few nordic countries (with a very particular characteristics that do not apply elsewhere).

Canada, Ozz, Uruguay, Japan, Germany, Austria, France and others share a number of social-democratic characteristics. 

Maybe what Spain needs is more socialism, not less. 

The PSOE let themselves be pushed around by the neo-liberal corporatists. 

Viva Espana !!

[AJ Oliver 1,178]

11 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Well, if they were poli sci students, probably a lot of experience in the fast food and coffee work field.

Oh sorry, that was post-graduation.

I appreciate the humor even if it is snarky - we used to tell those jokes ourselves. 

But in fact our Pol Sci students went on to have careers in public admin and policy, the military, law, journalism, business, lobbying (I know, blech), education and much else. 

And they did it without the huge advantage of the oligarchic networks of the elite schools. 

At least a third of them were the first in their families to attend Uni. 

Numbers of them can buy and sell the both of us combined. 

[LenP 1,063]

Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, etc. all to me seem largely irrelevant if you accept that the world today is fundamentally different than the one that existed before now. Much of the global economic activity today revolves around monetizing IP which is reproduced at a cost of near zero and with the need for little to no labor, and a world where monopolies arise in less than a decade to dominate entire domains. Where manufactured goods are involved, the manufacturing process  has been commoditized and is increasingly automated