benwynn

"Trump Doesn't Talk Down to Anybody"

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18 hours ago, benwynn said:
22 hours ago, Quotidian Tom said:

Why do you suppose Olsonist would spread a lie about how we treat auto liability if not to hold gun owners responsible for the actions of criminals? Why do you think badlat "liked" his lie?

I don't know.  Have you asked them?  

You really can't figure it out?

I think the answer is obvious and also think that expecting something other than another lie and more name-calling in response to any question would be foolish, so no, I didn't feel any need to ask. Go ahead and do it yourself if you really can't figure it out.

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5 hours ago, frenchie said:

 

Huh?  You, of all people, I expected to have known what she actually said, vs. the bullshit version that got traction. 

 

I understand the full comment adds context that softens the statement, however when I look at the totality of her campaign and statements I am left in the same place of seeing someone who really does not like or respect nearly half the country. It is not terribly different than the recording that caught Romney writing off half the country as takers who are a lost cause. The full context softens it, but there is still a contempt for a large percent of the population. Neither of those instances puts Romney or Clinton even remotely in the same ballpark as Trump, but they are not traits I want to see in a President. 

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11 hours ago, Mckarma said:

NeedAClew:

 

The IQ thing was a joke that nobody understood.  So I posted a thought about that earlier.  I'm definitely not stoooopid.  

 

The other things you are worried about (covid related stuff): I really don't care.  Trump isn't the one designing "cures" or "treatments".  No president will ever be that person.  I care more that he isn't interested in wars and has reduced world tension.  I also care about other policies that he has enacted.  Do I like the guy?  No.  Not even remotely.  I care about policies that may make a difference in the world and the US.  Socialism is a no go for me.  The ideology of some people is that we are all pure at heart and care about one another more than ourselves.  It's a great warm and fuzzy feeling to say "I care".  But the reality of human nature is that self preservation is much more important and fuck everyone else when it counts.  An example is the original "New Green Deal" contained a thought, and I'm paraphrasing "If people don't want to work, they will be provided for" .  That is socialism.  No one will fucking work if there is no "carrot" in which they receive more of a benefit.  It is the selfish nature of our makeup and it won't change for a long time.  At some point in the future, if everything is completely automated and mankind doesn't have to "labor" in order to receive benefit then we absolutely need to transition to socialism and even communism where there is no ownership of property.  We are a long way from that and we need to  move down that road at a moderate rate.  We can't jump to it because it will be detrimental to those that have no power.  You will, in fact, hurt those you are working to protect.  

 

Yes, capitalism is harsh, but it is effective in lifting people out of poverty.  It requires people to be productive.  To me, it is a stopgap until we automate.

 

Sorry you don't feel the need to communicate Ben.  I thought you were reaching across to actually discuss, but apparently you either didn't want to follow up or maybe you just skipped my post.

 

 

 

 

I don't see humans as being the selfish species that you do. We thrive in communities where people live together and support each other and always have. Where there are the most problems it is where selfishness is rebranded and elevated. We would not have survived as a species unless individual members put the interests of community above their own. 

In regards to automation, that is already happening, which is what creates the downward pressure on wages even when we have full employment. It is why it is why we are losing social mobility. The only thing that is holding back automation is the availability of exceedingly cheap human labor, and post pandemic the humans will lose even more leverage over robots since robots are not affected by things like Covid.   

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5 hours ago, Quotidian Tom said:

You really can't figure it out?

I think the answer is obvious and also think that expecting something other than another lie and more name-calling in response to any question would be foolish, so no, I didn't feel any need to ask. Go ahead and do it yourself if you really can't figure it out.

They might lie to me or call me a name, so I don't feel any need to ask.  I guess I'll just have to accept this as an unsolved mystery in my life.  

Bummer.

 

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3 hours ago, LenP said:

I understand the full comment adds context that softens the statement, however when I look at the totality of her campaign and statements I am left in the same place of seeing someone who really does not like or respect nearly half the country. It is not terribly different than the recording that caught Romney writing off half the country as takers who are a lost cause. The full context softens it, but there is still a contempt for a large percent of the population. Neither of those instances puts Romney or Clinton even remotely in the same ballpark as Trump, but they are not traits I want to see in a President. 

It's not "softening" the statement  -  it's that she was saying the exact opposite of what's claimed. 

She was reminding a bunch of uber-liberal coastals that half of Trump's supporters are NOT "deplorable" (racist, sexist, homophobic, islamophobic, etc).

Was she supposed to pretend the asshole contingent doesn't exist?

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4 hours ago, frenchie said:

It's not "softening" the statement  -  it's that she was saying the exact opposite of what's claimed. 

She was reminding a bunch of uber-liberal coastals that half of Trump's supporters are NOT "deplorable" (racist, sexist, homophobic, islamophobic, etc).

Was she supposed to pretend the asshole contingent doesn't exist?

She said half of his supporters were irredeemable and deplorable. That is a 1/4 of the country she was writing off. It is arguable whether or not they actually are or are not irredeemable, however I can not see how it was anything but contempt for 1/4 of the country. I am much more likely now to believe that there actually are that many despicable racists in the country, however I have nothing but contempt for racists and am willing to own it. What is worse is that most of the half she was talking about would have thought it not applicable to them, while many in the half she thought could be saved thought she meant them. If you are going to be President, you really should not write off 25-50% of the country which is what both she and Romney did. That cost both of them at the polls. 

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1 hour ago, LenP said:

She said half of his supporters were irredeemable and deplorable. That is a 1/4 of the country she was writing off. It is arguable whether or not they actually are or are not irredeemable, however I can not see how it was anything but contempt for 1/4 of the country. I am much more likely now to believe that there actually are that many despicable racists in the country, however I have nothing but contempt for racists and am willing to own it. What is worse is that most of the half she was talking about would have thought it not applicable to them, while many in the half she thought could be saved thought she meant them. If you are going to be President, you really should not write off 25-50% of the country which is what both she and Romney did. That cost both of them at the polls. 

It's true - that's why pols never give a straight answer to anything.

Getting elected requires that you at least convincingly sound like you are all things to all people.

Tell the truth and you're basically fucked.

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4 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

It's true - that's why pols never give a straight answer to anything.

Getting elected requires that you at least convincingly sound like you are all things to all people.

Tell the truth and you're basically fucked.

I don't think you necessarily have to be all things to all people, but I do think if you want to be a successful president that you need to try and always give even your detractors a way to maintain their respect, at least when that contingent of detractors makes up 1/4 of the population. Once you call someone an irredeemable deplorable, you have left no space to come together on pretty much any topic. The relationship becomes toxic. Ironically, Bill Clinton was one of the better presidents when it came to this. 

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It's remarkable how strong the Right clings to that one word, uttered once a dozen years ago. They so love that image that all "Liberals" subscribed to it then and still do. They love their inferiority complex. The irony is...that's deplorable. 

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On 11/29/2020 at 9:23 AM, benwynn said:
On 11/29/2020 at 8:56 AM, bhyde said:

Sure, it takes a little effort, but it's worth it.

Keep in mind, Trump still has a 44% approval rating after losing the election. It was hard to believe that Trump was elected in 2016, yet it is true. It is equally hard to believe that half the country is filled with idiots, yet it is true. Let's just call them the 44%ers and put them in the total loss column.

That doesn't solve anything, and is lazy.

Zactly.  It is also the quickest and surest way to make sure another trump type is elected president again, only this time it's likely he/she will have a filter and not say what they really think ALL THE TIME.  And that will make it even worse, because the lies won't be so obvious.

Because telling half of the country they are idiots is a winning campaign strategery....... 

said no one ever.  

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On 11/29/2020 at 10:19 AM, Mark K said:

44% of the nation aren't idiots, they are simply misinformed. What has happened is our entertainment media, particularly comedians, use that ignorance as easy fodder for material. When people are laughed at for their beliefs you get an instant inferiority complex. FOX News panders to that by constantly re-enforcing the misinformation for profit, and so does Trump. 

 FDR didn't have that problem. There was no FOX News, there wasn't much media at all outside of newspapers, what entertainment media there was was movies..and there was no TV.  Radio stations didn't devote themselves to punditry, and since the transistor had not been invented it wasn't in everybody's ears all the time. Not in cars, pretty much only in homes. 

Yep.

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On 11/29/2020 at 10:34 AM, Rain Man said:

the theory that the left are a bunch of communists trying to take over the world, take all the guns, and make everyone a slave.  

I dunno about the others.  But many on the left have been absolutely candid about wanting to take all the gunz.  Just saying....

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On 11/29/2020 at 1:38 PM, bhyde said:

Fuck Trump. Fuck Trump supporters. And fuck the GOP. I'm done with those assholes.

With that attitude, no you're not done with them......  That mindset will ensure that they continue to stay in power.  

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On 11/29/2020 at 3:16 PM, Steam Flyer said:

Another question is, how many of these voters are going to continue the Republican tradition of never-never-NEVER even considering voting for a Democrat, except in an emergency (such as voting for FDR or voting against Trump)?

Y'all keep forgetting that a big chunk of the trumpaloos, especially in the midwest and rust belt states that elected him in 2016 - voted for Obama x2.  They were die hard blue collar union loving democRATs before trump showed up on the scene.  

Steam Liar, here is an article from your home state from that evil righty rag NPR:  https://www.npr.org/2020/12/01/940418753/examining-the-republican-vote-in-rural-north-carolina

Quote

 

BROOKS: I'd say probably 75% of what you got here is working-class people. These people get up and go to work every day, the ones who (ph) still got jobs.

HARRISON: Those working-class people in Robeson County are roughly 30% white, 25% Black and 40% Native American. Democrats have long believed that demographics is destiny, but in this mostly rural county, that's going in reverse. In 1976, Robeson gave Jimmy Carter his highest vote share of any North Carolina county with 80%. In 2008 and 2012, it went heavily for Obama. Then Trump barely won in a shocker four years ago. Earlier this month, he took nearly 60% of the vote.

Phillip Stephens, the chair of the Robeson County Republican Party, thinks the county will keep electing conservatives.

 

It's not just white racists who are voting against the dems.  Those same whites that you call morons and racists voted for a Kenyan without a birth certificate 2 times in a row.  This has repeated over and over across the country such that where places that were once dem firewalls among white blue collar voters and others are now heavily red and unlikely to go back.  

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On 11/29/2020 at 3:16 PM, Steam Flyer said:

There's a wide variety of reasons why people voted for Trump. Hatred of liberals & Dems is a very common one, and that's the core message being pushed by rightie spew-media.

I don't know ANYONE that is a die-hard trumpadoodle (and I know many) that HATES dems and liberals.  They do hate their policies, they make no bones about that.  But I think your assertions of their hatred of the "person" is more of your typical projection BS.  Another way to say that is you just made it up.  As evadent.

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On 11/29/2020 at 7:27 PM, Steam Flyer said:

and no inhibitions about lying?

- DSK

A trait that you are well and truly familiar with.

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50 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

With that attitude, no you're not done with them......  That mindset will ensure that they continue to stay in power.  

bullshit, howdydoody.

he's right, as it currently stands, fuck that 'right-wing' shit... oohhh, look at me, guess I'm 'ensuring' cretins and assholes will 'stay in power'...

 

 

 

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On 11/30/2020 at 12:26 AM, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Might be part of it. IMO a much bigger part is, they're worried if their partner loses his/her job and they can't pay the rent and lose their home. One gets sick, they can't pay the medical bills. Their bright kid has lousy prospects unless he's an athlete or dead lucky. Their average kid is likely to have a less secure life than they have. They're struggling and going further behind every year.

And what's the message from the Democrats? What gets the press? From my reading and fair distance away, it's the crap equivalent to arguing about how many angels can dance on a pinhead. It's shit that's only of interest to the 'woke' progressive types. Continual lecturing about 'white privilege' to people who can't manage on a single job and often have 3 or more, all insecure and part-time with no health cover.

And these are not the people who are the racists or who BLM is protesting against.  AS you say, they just want to keep their heads down and get by and maybe even see light at the end of the tunnel.  Woke and white privilege to them is irrelevant BS.  I would bet most of those rural and blue collar white voters work alongside a minority every day and probably have beers with them after work.  I doubt skin color is even a "Thing" to them.  

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On 11/30/2020 at 2:22 PM, benwynn said:

@Fah Kiew Tu   said, "You need to get at least 10% to 20% of them back to a position of at least neutral and listening."  

I know that the photos you post are not at all indicative of all Trump supporters. I have relatives who support him, and they are decent people.  

Then again, I have been refusing to listen to @Fah Kiew Tu and am just another Progressive who doesn't have a clue.   So what the fuck do I know?  Maybe I should post my IQ numbers here, as a futile plea for credibility. 

Ben, you do realize that you were not quoting FKT but sloop jon b, right?

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

It's remarkable how strong the Right clings to that one word, uttered once a dozen years ago. They so love that image that all "Liberals" subscribed to it then and still do. They love their inferiority complex. The irony is...that's deplorable. 

And yet the vast majority of the "liberals" here in PA absolutely DO subscribe to her words to the letter.  Hell, she only called 25% of them deplorable idiots.  The rest of you are saying it's anywhere from 44-50% irredeemable deplorable idiots.

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27 minutes ago, 3to1 said:

bullshit, howdydoody.

he's right, as it currently stands, fuck that 'right-wing' shit... oohhh, look at me, guess I'm 'ensuring' cretins and assholes will 'stay in power'...

 

Yes.

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

Ben, you do realize that you were not quoting FKT but sloop jon b, right?

Did you have to tell him? I'm enjoying his ostrich act.

FKT

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17 hours ago, benwynn said:
23 hours ago, Quotidian Tom said:

You really can't figure it out?

I think the answer is obvious and also think that expecting something other than another lie and more name-calling in response to any question would be foolish, so no, I didn't feel any need to ask. Go ahead and do it yourself if you really can't figure it out.

They might lie to me or call me a name, so I don't feel any need to ask.  I guess I'll just have to accept this as an unsolved mystery in my life.  

Bummer.

Well, at least we can agree that gungrabby/TeamD partisans like Olsonist and badlat are likely to lie and not worth questioning, so that's nice.

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6 hours ago, Burning Man said:

I don't know ANYONE that is a die-hard trumpadoodle (and I know many) that HATES dems and liberals. 

....

That's funny, I know a LOT of people who aren't even hard-core Trumpalos and they hate dems and liberals quite openly. Almost everybody who describes themselves as Republican, in fact

I think in your case, it's that fish aren't aware of water.

- DSK

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6 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Y'all keep forgetting that a big chunk of the trumpaloos, especially in the midwest and rust belt states that elected him in 2016 - voted for Obama x2.  They were die hard blue collar union loving democRATs before trump showed up on the scene.  

Steam Liar, here is an article from your home state from that evil righty rag NPR:  https://www.npr.org/2020/12/01/940418753/examining-the-republican-vote-in-rural-north-carolina

It's not just white racists who are voting against the dems.  Those same whites that you call morons and racists voted for a Kenyan without a birth certificate 2 times in a row.  This has repeated over and over across the country such that where places that were once dem firewalls among white blue collar voters and others are now heavily red and unlikely to go back.  

A lot of those counties, including Robeson, have declining populations. They are economic disaster zones

And despite four years of saying s, I've never seen anything but anecdotal evidence that the same people who voted for Obama turned around and voted for Trump. Counties? Yeah. Does dirt vote now?

- DSK

 

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34 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

A lot of those counties, including Robeson, have declining populations. They are economic disaster zones

And despite four years of saying s, I've never seen anything but anecdotal evidence that the same people who voted for Obama turned around and voted for Trump. Counties? Yeah. Does dirt vote now?

- DSK

 

There were definitely people who did just that here in PA. Carbon county is the example I know best, but there are others. It is the same people voting, just voting for Trump not Obama. 

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3 minutes ago, LenP said:
38 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

.... Does dirt vote now?

 

 

There were definitely people who did just that here in PA. Carbon county is the example I know best, but there are others. It is the same people voting, just voting for Trump not Obama. 

EricClaptonTheresOneInEveryCrowd.jpg

Thanks

- DSK

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8 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Ben, you do realize that you were not quoting FKT but sloop jon b, right?

I was quoting sloop because his response to FKT was inappropriate.  FKT made the point that you only need to relate to a small percentage of Trump supporters and sloop posted a bunch of photos of Trump extremists, sarcastically implying that it was not possible.

I am agreeing with FKT on this, even though he was a patronizing asshole with me earlier.

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

EricClaptonTheresOneInEveryCrowd.jpg

Thanks

- DSK

So you believe Len P on this but won't take what I said as valid?  Your biases are showing.  It's been well documented that a LOT of obama voters voted for trump in 2016.  A LOT, all over the country.  Stop being such an argumentative ass all the time and educate yourself.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama–Trump_voters

https://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/just-how-many-obama-2012-trump-2016-voters-were-there/

Quote

In the immediate aftermath of the 2016 presidential election, many observers understandably focused on the numerous places that swung from Barack Obama to Donald Trump. Because many of these areas congregated in swing states within the Rust Belt and Midwest, they played a pivotal role in Trump’s victory, as shown by the movement toward the GOP in Map 1 below. But how many total voters really switched from Obama to Trump in 2016? Different data sources tell a different story, but the answer is certainly in the millions.

Even the NYT says Obama to trump voters is not fake news.  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/upshot/the-obama-trump-voters-are-real-heres-what-they-think.html

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49 minutes ago, benwynn said:

I was quoting sloop because his response to FKT was inappropriate.  FKT made the point that you only need to relate to a small percentage of Trump supporters and sloop posted a bunch of photos of Trump extremists, sarcastically implying that it was not possible.

I am agreeing with FKT on this, even though he was a patronizing asshole with me earlier.

gotcha

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Are half of Shitstain's supporters today "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic" or are they small government, fiscally conservative, states rights supporting, God-fearing patriots?

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1 minute ago, Olsonist said:

Are half of Shitstain's supporters today "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic"

Some certainly are.  But half?  No.  Not even close.

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7 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Some certainly are.  But half?  No.  Not even close.

Would you characterize Shitstain himself as racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic and Islamaphobic?

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Just now, Olsonist said:

Would you characterize Shitstain himself as racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic and Islamaphobic?

Yes.

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4 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Yes.

So would you characterize the people who support him as supporting racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia and Islamaphobia or are they small government, fiscally conservative, states rights supporting, God-fearing patriots?

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6 hours ago, benwynn said:

I was quoting sloop because his response to FKT was inappropriate.  FKT made the point that you only need to relate to a small percentage of Trump supporters and sloop posted a bunch of photos of Trump extremists, sarcastically implying that it was not possible.

I am agreeing with FKT on this, even though he was a patronizing asshole with me earlier.

Don't feel singled out, I'm a patronising arsehole to nearly everyone.

I will be very, very happy the day Biden takes over and some sanity returns. The thing that worries me is the time between now, when it's obvious Trump has lost by a landslide, and then.

Strategically, you guys need to do something about your election processes so as to make it nearly impossible for the fuckwit fringe to claim voter fraud. It seems that in fact there was a vanishingly small amount amounting to none, and nobody can ever satisfy the conspiracy nutcases because proof is meaningless, but still - it'd take some of the heat out.

That and working on health care and education. Personally I think you're fucked because any serious reform attempt means taking money from the middle men to pay for the doctors, hospitals and nurses & support staff - scientists, techs, admins that actually deliver the care. Education is probably even worse because of the way it's currently funded.

It's the brainwashing scream of 'socialist!!' 'commie!!' at every turn that's feeding into this.

Anyway I'm almost back home to my boat with a bunch of new ideas and thinking done so - shrug. Carry on.

FKT

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3 hours ago, Olsonist said:

So would you characterize the people who support him as supporting racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia and Islamaphobia or are they small government, fiscally conservative, states rights supporting, God-fearing patriots?

Assume that is true - it's a sophomoric debating trick but let's assume.

Do you want to wean some of them away from those attitudes and their support for arseholes like Trump, or do you want to push them further into that camp?

It doesn't seem to have occurred to you that at least some of those people have & will acknowledge Trump is/was all of those things and more, yet still supported him DESPITE that, because he promised to bring back US jobs. And that was way more important to them. Those are the ones you can peel off if you try.

FKT

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37 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Assume that is true - it's a sophomoric debating trick but let's assume.

Do you want to wean some of them away from those attitudes and their support for arseholes like Trump, or do you want to push them further into that camp?

It doesn't seem to have occurred to you that at least some of those people have & will acknowledge Trump is/was all of those things and more, yet still supported him DESPITE that, because he promised to bring back US jobs. And that was way more important to them. Those are the ones you can peel off if you try.

FKT

It's more Socratic than it is Sophomoric and as such, I wasn't stating anything was true. Jeff was even willing to classify Shitstain as supporting racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia and Islamaphobia; so I wasn't that far off base. So if you are going to accuse me of a false dichotomy then you should know that those are Hillary's words and that other non-sense is Tea Partyisms for each of which I can find multiple cites.

Now I have no idea how to wean these people away from their Shitstain. I really don't and I'm not even sure it's possible; there's an element of human nature at play here. As for solutions, it reminds me of the Zen saying, change must come from within and I am not within.

In any case, we need to be very clear in our understanding of what their problem is, hence my questions. At least, that's my position circa today. I was a little more forgiving and understanding pre-2016. But I'm more in the Fuck Your Feelings tough love camp now. And while I will admit that that won't win many if any MAGA friends, I really don't care.

No, really. There are MAGAs choking to death on intubation going to their last dying gasp calling COVID a hoax because that's what their Shitstain told them. The Governor of South Dakota's grandmother just died of this and she's telling her flock to go shopping. And somehow this is MY problem? I think not. Change must come from within but unfortunately conservatism of any stripe is an opposing force to change.

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19 hours ago, Burning Man said:

With that attitude, no you're not done with them......  That mindset will ensure that they continue to stay in power.  

That's fucking funny. The burn-this-bitch-down poster child is now concerned with fostering national unity. Get your broom and sweep up the ashes Jeff, because Trump and every one of his little Trumptard supporters can go fuck themselves. Those asshole are still pushing the idea that Trump won the election. I've heard exactly one Republican speak out against Trump's attempted coup. They are traitors to this nation much the way Trump is a traitor to humanity. At no point, now or in the future, will I lift a finger to help them out or try to understand their hurt little feelings when they are clearly too stupid to realize they elected a fucking reality show host to our highest office. I'm done dealing with the 44%ers. The best way to deal with these idiots is to stuff them back down in the shitholes that Trump allowed them to crawl out of.

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1 hour ago, bhyde said:

That's fucking funny. The burn-this-bitch-down poster child is now concerned with fostering national unity. Get your broom and sweep up the ashes Jeff, because Trump and every one of his little Trumptard supporters can go fuck themselves. Those asshole are still pushing the idea that Trump won the election. I've heard exactly one Republican speak out against Trump's attempted coup. They are traitors to this nation much the way Trump is a traitor to humanity. At no point, now or in the future, will I lift a finger to help them out or try to understand their hurt little feelings when they are clearly too stupid to realize they elected a fucking reality show host to our highest office. I'm done dealing with the 44%ers. The best way to deal with these idiots is to stuff them back down in the shitholes that Trump allowed them to crawl out of.

And when they reach 51% - what then?

Want to give odds on it not happening?

FKT

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11 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

And when they reach 51% - what then?

Want to give odds on it not happening?

FKT

They will turn a country that is the laughing stock of the world into a country that is still the laughing stock of the world. Whether it's 44% or 51% matters very little. We've reached moron critical mass. The last four year was exactly what happens when they reach 51%.

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10 minutes ago, bhyde said:

They will turn a country that is the laughing stock of the world into a country that is still the laughing stock of the world. Whether it's 44% or 51% matters very little. We've reached moron critical mass. The last four year was exactly what happens when they reach 51%.

So, no plan. Gotcha.

Ever heard the mantra that failing to plan is planning to fail?

You're resigned to a re-run of the last 4 years starting January 21 2025.

Except it's really hard to think of a worse, more lazy, stupid, morally bankrupt and self-entitled fuckwit than Trump, so the next re-run will likely be led by someone smarter and more focused.

And you know what? People like you will deserve what happens, because you'd rather live in your smug morally superior bubble than try to convert maybe 5% to your cause.

WRT your comment that 44% or 51% matters little - that's where you're wrong, because that's the point where you and your smug friends become the minority, and *they* get to have the say, with the full support and force of democratic rules to support their decisions.

A smart person would work to prevent that happening rather than encouraging it by labeling the whole lot of them as something irredeemable and beyond the pale.

FKT

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16 minutes ago, bhyde said:
40 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

And when they reach 51% - what then?

Want to give odds on it not happening?

FKT

They will turn a country that is the laughing stock of the world into a country that is still the laughing stock of the world. Whether it's 44% or 51% matters very little. We've reached moron critical mass. The last four year was exactly what happens when they reach 51%.

They have a majority of state legislatures and governorships. The Republican Party already has more than 51% of the control of the country without the Presidency

Now, if the weasels can be convinced to keep fighting each other in Georgia and give up the Senate, that will be a big step in the right direction. But look at the Georgia state officials, the guy who was pissed off about all the death threats and the calls for destruction of our democracy is a loyal Republican who is urging his fellow Republicans to vote in those Senators.

I don't think most of them can be helped or persuaded. They're permanently stuck in a dysfunctional, broken relationship

- DSK

 

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

They have a majority of state legislatures and governorships. The Republican Party already has more than 51% of the control of the country without the Presidency

Now, if the weasels can be convinced to keep fighting each other in Georgia and give up the Senate, that will be a big step in the right direction. But look at the Georgia state officials, the guy who was pissed off about all the death threats and the calls for destruction of our democracy is a loyal Republican who is urging his fellow Republicans to vote in those Senators.

I don't think most of them can be helped or persuaded. They're permanently stuck in a dysfunctional, broken relationship

- DSK

 

But the point I keep returning to is - you don't need most of them. You only need 5% of them. Well more like 10% of the 44% but the point remains.

Yet all I read here from the left side is to ignore all of them and keep labeling all of them as the same. That's more likely to lose support than gain it.

FKT

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5 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Don't feel singled out, I'm a patronising arsehole to nearly everyone.

I don't feel singled out because I am a patronizing asshole myself.  And you are making a lot if sense in this thread.

I don't dish out much kumbaya here. So that better be fucking appreciated.

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1 minute ago, benwynn said:

I don't feel singled out because I am a patronizing asshole myself.  And you are making a lot if sense in this thread.

Glad it's you saying that. If it was AJ I'd have to seriously consider whether I might be wrong...

FKT

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58 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

And when they reach 51% - what then?

Want to give odds on it not happening?

FKT

Seriously, you're holding rational people responsible for what irrational people do or could do. That doesn't make any sense. If the MAGAs get to 51%, less than that actually given the vagaries of the Electoral College and the Senate, so what? Their fuckage is not my fault. Their snowflakiness is not my problem. Fuck 'em. Do the right thing. That's all I can do.

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5 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

But the point I keep returning to is - you don't need most of them. You only need 5% of them. Well more like 10% of the 44% but the point remains.

Yet all I read here from the left side is to ignore all of them and keep labeling all of them as the same. That's more likely to lose support than gain it.

FKT

What is your suggestion for turning that 10% of the 44%?

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19 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:
23 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I don't think most of them can be helped or persuaded. They're permanently stuck in a dysfunctional, broken relationship

 

But the point I keep returning to is - you don't need most of them. You only need 5% of them. Well more like 10% of the 44% but the point remains.

Yet all I read here from the left side is to ignore all of them and keep labeling all of them as the same. That's more likely to lose support than gain it.

FKT

Probably 5% of Republicans voted for Biden and then their usual Team-R! guys further down the ballot.

That's about as good as it's gonna get, I'm afraid. Democratic Party candidates can't even get Democrats to come out and vote for them, so far.

And you don't seem to have an answer as to how to help people who don't want to be helped. They are like people in an abusive partnership, they get beat up but they keep going back.

- DSK

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2 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

What is your suggestion for turning that 10% of the 44%?

Top of my list would be to fix or at least substantially improve your health care system.

Another forum I'm on is manufacturing and I've lost count of the number of times this comes up. The small & medium manufacturers can no longer afford to offer full insurance even when they want to. The employees quote figures that by every other First World country standards are utterly rapacious and the exclusions are such that you might wonder why you bother. Obamacare was a band-aid over a gangrenous wound. OK it was better than that but didn't really make the fundamental changes needed.

It does NOT cost that much to provide decent hospital and general medical care. The money is going into the wrong pockets. you already spend 2X what you need to so the money is already there, just not well used. The trick is to divert that money to productive use. Maybe fix insurance payout ratio to admin/overhead to 5% or whatever the current US Medicare rate is. And encourage more & foreign insurance firms to enter the market but tight terms on coverage offered to minimise cherry-picking.

Set up State-run teaching/training hospitals and take a really close look at how the supposedly 'not for profit' hospitals are working. There's lots of ways to not make a profit and have great salaries at the same time.

Now given the political gridlock of your system and the amount of money going to both sides I can't offer a practical path to getting this done, but IMO you simply *have* to do it and it would be a major signal that you in fact did understand something that those people desperately need.

Longer term, education reform including wholesale reform of the cost of higher education.

Jobs, as I've said elsewhere, is a hard one. Increasing automation has eliminated whole areas of work. The US steel industry produces about the same tonnage of steel as it did 40 years ago with less than 10% of the labour force. That's never going back. Same in many other areas of manufacturing. And some of the really big companies are not going to destroy their business models voluntarily; they'd rather ride the dying horse into the ground while the Chinese take their markets away by hook or by crook.

The pernicious idea that a corporation's overriding responsibility is to 'enhancing shareholder value' needs reform, too. Corporations need to make a profit, for sure, but by delivering goods/services that are wanted not by monopoly or cartel behaviour. However that won't help with the 5% you need to swing in the short term.

These are 'socialist' ideas and would be pilloried so need careful thought & planning plus a good sales campaign.

FKT

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3 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Probably 5% of Republicans voted for Biden and then their usual Team-R! guys further down the ballot.

That's about as good as it's gonna get, I'm afraid. Democratic Party candidates can't even get Democrats to come out and vote for them, so far.

And you don't seem to have an answer as to how to help people who don't want to be helped. They are like people in an abusive partnership, they get beat up but they keep going back.

- DSK

I don't have an answer for those, it's true. As you say, some can't be reached.

As for the others that voted for Biden but Repubs further down, at least they were prepared to vote against Trump. Those are the ones you *might* be able to shift. Now find out what they need to change and offer it to them.

FKT

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9 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Top of my list would be to fix or at least substantially improve your health care system.

Another forum I'm on is manufacturing and I've lost count of the number of times this comes up. The small & medium manufacturers can no longer afford to offer full insurance even when they want to. The employees quote figures that by every other First World country standards are utterly rapacious and the exclusions are such that you might wonder why you bother. Obamacare was a band-aid over a gangrenous wound. OK it was better than that but didn't really make the fundamental changes needed.

It does NOT cost that much to provide decent hospital and general medical care. The money is going into the wrong pockets. you already spend 2X what you need to so the money is already there, just not well used. The trick is to divert that money to productive use. Maybe fix insurance payout ratio to admin/overhead to 5% or whatever the current US Medicare rate is. And encourage more & foreign insurance firms to enter the market but tight terms on coverage offered to minimise cherry-picking.

Set up State-run teaching/training hospitals and take a really close look at how the supposedly 'not for profit' hospitals are working. There's lots of ways to not make a profit and have great salaries at the same time.

Now given the political gridlock of your system and the amount of money going to both sides I can't offer a practical path to getting this done, but IMO you simply *have* to do it and it would be a major signal that you in fact did understand something that those people desperately need.

Longer term, education reform including wholesale reform of the cost of higher education.

Jobs, as I've said elsewhere, is a hard one. Increasing automation has eliminated whole areas of work. The US steel industry produces about the same tonnage of steel as it did 40 years ago with less than 10% of the labour force. That's never going back. Same in many other areas of manufacturing. And some of the really big companies are not going to destroy their business models voluntarily; they'd rather ride the dying horse into the ground while the Chinese take their markets away by hook or by crook.

The pernicious idea that a corporation's overriding responsibility is to 'enhancing shareholder value' needs reform, too. Corporations need to make a profit, for sure, but by delivering goods/services that are wanted not by monopoly or cartel behaviour. However that won't help with the 5% you need to swing in the short term.

These are 'socialist' ideas and would be pilloried so need careful thought & planning plus a good sales campaign.

FKT

While I agree with much of what you suggest, you point about them being "socialist" is key.  The folks who supported President Trump are not interested in the healthcare reform you suggest.  They love that he is trying to repeal the ACA, even though it will hammer many of them.  

I am truly uncertain this 10% you suggest can be educated about the better options, like what you've laid out.  They have memorized the talking points and are like a pitbull that's tasted blood - they aren't letting go.

Socialism is an epithet.

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1 minute ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I don't have an answer for those, it's true. As you say, some can't be reached.

As for the others that voted for Biden but Repubs further down, at least they were prepared to vote against Trump. Those are the ones you *might* be able to shift. Now find out what they need to change and offer it to them.

FKT

My big idea for this election, which I was willing to pay for, was to rent a couple of passenger vans and drive people to the polls & back. I know a couple of people in the local Democratic Party and this is part of their standard game plan for all election but they are rarely organized enough to actually do it. All they do is sit around and argue. They argued with my plan but they could get money to do it, so they agreed... I only had to kick in a little money to make reservations and rent the vans a week early. They can't even google the fucking early voting dates/hours/polling places, compile a list of their candidates, and print out a local voter guide.

From what I see going on at the state and national level, I suspect this is what goes on there, too. The Democratic Party is a diverse coalition, and they would almost certainly welcome former Republicans. But going out and recruiting them is unlikely to make it into the action plan. They are too busy arguing about tri-gender bathrooms and rights for gerbils, or whatever stupid shit is the flavor of the day.

- DSK

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12 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

So, no plan. Gotcha.

Ever heard the mantra that failing to plan is planning to fail?

You're resigned to a re-run of the last 4 years starting January 21 2025.

Except it's really hard to think of a worse, more lazy, stupid, morally bankrupt and self-entitled fuckwit than Trump, so the next re-run will likely be led by someone smarter and more focused.

And you know what? People like you will deserve what happens, because you'd rather live in your smug morally superior bubble than try to convert maybe 5% to your cause.

WRT your comment that 44% or 51% matters little - that's where you're wrong, because that's the point where you and your smug friends become the minority, and *they* get to have the say, with the full support and force of democratic rules to support their decisions.

A smart person would work to prevent that happening rather than encouraging it by labeling the whole lot of them as something irredeemable and beyond the pale.

FKT

I hear what you are saying, but you think winning over the hearts and minds of the 44% is a good plan? Bullshit. The Dems have been trying to do that for decades and now we've just had four years of the absolute biggest clown show on the planet. How'd that work out? Right now, this very minute, 44% of my fellow Americans think, "Yeah Trump, that's my guy. Give me more of that." They think someone who is manifestly unfit to hold office, in any organization, by any measure, is a wonderful leader. They think that making liberal heads explode is an actual political platform. Being Russian is better than being Democrat. Sorry, I can't fix that and I couldn't care less what Trump supporters think about me and my "smug" friends. But don't mistake my distain for Trump and Trump supporters for indifference. My plan is pretty simple at this point - Fuck the GOP and Trumpaloos over every chance I get. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

From what I see going on at the state and national level, I suspect this is what goes on there, too. The Democratic Party is a diverse coalition, and they would almost certainly welcome former Republicans. But going out and recruiting them is unlikely to make it into the action plan. They are too busy arguing about tri-gender bathrooms and rights for gerbils, or whatever stupid shit is the flavor of the day.

- DSK

Yeah and from the other place I hang out, this is a truly massive turnoff to the lightweight Republicans. You get the very well off upper middle-class 'woke' type, BJ being a classic example here, lecturing lower working class white people on inherited white privilege and guess what? They look at their rented apartment or similar, their 2 or 3 jobs of if they're lucky, their 50+ hours/week at $15 an hour and one injury or illness from bankruptcy. Then they look at the Democrat telling them they need to be ashamed of themselves because of their gender and skin colour.

And they go 'fuck you' and vote against you.

Old story here - I forget exactly who said it but it was very apposite. The ALP (Australian Labor Party) used to be the cream of the working class. Now it's the dregs of the middle class.

It was an old ALP man who said it.

The US Democrats seem basically to have given up on the US working class people. Even worse, far too many Democrats go out of their way to insult them. Of course they're not voting for you.

FKT

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Just now, bhyde said:

I hear what you are saying, but you think winning over the hearts and minds of the 44% is a good plan? Bullshit.

Your reading comprehension sucks.

I said you need to win over 10% of the 44%. Not all of them. Or at absolute minimum convince the 5% who voted Biden for Pres and Repubs for House/Senate not to switch back next time.

If you cannot or will not contemplate that, you'd better have a Plan B for when they get to 51% quite legitimately, and pass laws you cannot abide. Because they'll have every democratic right to do so. And given the Repubs already have a grip on the States you can't even get a Constitutional Convention done to swing things even if Congress were willing to propose an amendment or 2.

FKT

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Quote

"If you believe, as I do, that we should be able to reform the criminal justice system so that it's not biased and treats everybody fairly, I guess you can use a snappy slogan, like 'defund the police.' But, you know, you lost a big audience the minute you say it, which makes it a lot less likely that you're actually going to get the changes you want done," ________________ said.

"The key is deciding, do you want to actually get something done, or do you want to feel good among the people you already agree with?" he added. "And if you want to get something done in a democracy, in a country as big and diverse as ours, then you've got to be able to meet people where they are. And play a game of addition and not subtraction."

No source yet and please don't look it up. Without knowing the source, what do you think about what ________________ said above?

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12 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Top of my list would be to fix or at least substantially improve your health care system.

How?

I've literally spent over a decade pointing out that they currently pay more, IN TAX DOLLARS, than Canaduckistanians, Ozzies, or Limeys are paying in tax dollars.  ASIDE FROM our premiums and deductibles and co-pays, backing it up with WHO stats.  I've been doing it so long, that the WHO stats website has changed their format, three times, since I started.

They still go on about how "socialized" health care would mean higher taxes.  It's a basic premise of the debate.  Even the Bernie Bros don't grasp how wasteful the current system is  -  you think I can convince a single fucking Republican?

12 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Another forum I'm on is manufacturing and I've lost count of the number of times this comes up. The small & medium manufacturers can no longer afford to offer full insurance even when they want to. The employees quote figures that by every other First World country standards are utterly rapacious and the exclusions are such that you might wonder why you bother. Obamacare was a band-aid over a gangrenous wound. OK it was better than that but didn't really make the fundamental changes needed.

It does NOT cost that much to provide decent hospital and general medical care. The money is going into the wrong pockets. you already spend 2X what you need to so the money is already there, just not well used.

Yeah, same, on a carpentry forum, back when Obamacare was first proposed.  Did not manage to convince a single one of them that a Canada-style or Australia-style system would save money.  They're impervious to basic facts.  What do we do with that

12 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Jobs, as I've said elsewhere, is a hard one. Increasing automation has eliminated whole areas of work. The US steel industry produces about the same tonnage of steel as it did 40 years ago with less than 10% of the labour force. That's never going back. Same in many other areas of manufacturing. And some of the really big companies are not going to destroy their business models voluntarily; they'd rather ride the dying horse into the ground while the Chinese take their markets away by hook or by crook.

The pernicious idea that a corporation's overriding responsibility is to 'enhancing shareholder value' needs reform, too. Corporations need to make a profit, for sure, but by delivering goods/services that are wanted not by monopoly or cartel behaviour. However that won't help with the 5% you need to swing in the short term.

These are 'socialist' ideas and would be pilloried so need careful thought & planning plus a good sales campaign.

FKT

These ideas get anyone who mentions them, dismissed out-of-hand  -  not just by Republicans, but also by most "moderate" Democrats. 

So...  is the issue really that we Democrats need to be more conciliatory to right-wing bullshit? 

Or does that just feed into the (largely correct, IMO) criticism that Democrats are hypocrites who actually serve the same corporate masters? 

Because if that's the real issue, the solution is to stop coddling bullshitters, and unapologetically actually stand for something besides Republicanism-lite.  

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5 hours ago, Quotidian Tom said:

No source yet and please don't look it up. Without knowing the source, what do you think about what ________________ said above?

The guy who thought the best way to fix healthcare was "show them, don't tell them", and only proposed a tiny incremental change.  Which was an improvement, but also just (to quote FKT) "a band-aid over a gangrenous wound... better than that but didn't really make the fundamental changes needed".  

It's odd to me that you think anyone hasn't read that quote, by now.  My (admitedly leftist) twitter feed's been only about that quote, since. The progressives are pissed.

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Maybe we can give Trumpers a subscription to online self esteem classes. Various teachers, including porn stars. 

Anybody who stews over their group being called "deplorable" and feels less-than thus ripe for a cult leader has poor self esteem and snapped after a perceived lifetime of disrespect.

Note that high-prestige "elites" get called sheeple, lib-tards, whatever and shrug it off and keep on with making vaccines, working in hospitals,  managing their portfolios or whatever. 

 

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On 12/2/2020 at 10:39 AM, Olsonist said:

So would you characterize the people who support him as supporting racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia and Islamaphobia or are they small government, fiscally conservative, states rights supporting, God-fearing patriots?

No, not all or even most of them do not support those things.  As you well know, aside from your obvious obtuse schtick here, that the world is not that black and white.  For example, Many folks supported trump because of his potential SCOTUS nominees - but may not have liked or approved of his pussy grabbing.  Its a calculation that every individual makes.  I voted for Biden and will support him in most things, but I absolutely do not support his stated stance on gun control.  I weighed the balance of pros/cons and made a decision based on what was best overall for me and for my country.  

Just as we all hold our noses to vote for a candidate we don't like or totally agree with on all policies but we want them to tackle the big issues closest to our hearts - we decide on if the more important things to us are worth overlooking the negatives.  That happens with EVERY.SINGLE.VOTER to some extent.  So someone supporting trump for some things does not in anyway imply that they condone some of the other fucked up stuff he did or stood for.  

So put your big wide paint brush away, pick up a sharpened pencil and educate yourself on this concept called Non-binary thought and "nuance".  Just saying.  

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23 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

No, not all or even most of them do not support those things.  As you well know, aside from your obvious obtuse schtick here, that the world is not that black and white.  For example, Many folks supported trump because of his potential SCOTUS nominees - but may not have liked or approved of his pussy grabbing.  Its a calculation that every individual makes.  I voted for Biden and will support him in most things, but I absolutely do not support his stated stance on gun control.  I weighed the balance of pros/cons and made a decision based on what was best overall for me and for my country.  

Just as we all hold our noses to vote for a candidate we don't like or totally agree with on all policies but we want them to tackle the big issues closest to our hearts - we decide on if the more important things to us are worth overlooking the negatives.  That happens with EVERY.SINGLE.VOTER to some extent.  So someone supporting trump for some things does not in anyway imply that they condone some of the other fucked up stuff he did or stood for.  

So put your big wide paint brush away, pick up a sharpened pencil and educate yourself on this concept called Non-binary thought and "nuance".  Just saying.  

Olsonist only votes for the candidate who has policies fully congruent with his own personal beliefs.

I'm not sure that crayon is the most suitable implement for him to write his name on the ballot papers, though.

FKT

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38 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

No, not all or even most of them do not support those things.  As you well know, aside from your obvious obtuse schtick here, that the world is not that black and white.  For example, Many folks supported trump because of his potential SCOTUS nominees - but may not have liked or approved of his pussy grabbing.  Its a calculation that every individual makes.  I voted for Biden and will support him in most things, but I absolutely do not support his stated stance on gun control.  I weighed the balance of pros/cons and made a decision based on what was best overall for me and for my country.  

Just as we all hold our noses to vote for a candidate we don't like or totally agree with on all policies but we want them to tackle the big issues closest to our hearts - we decide on if the more important things to us are worth overlooking the negatives.  That happens with EVERY.SINGLE.VOTER to some extent.  So someone supporting trump for some things does not in anyway imply that they condone some of the other fucked up stuff he did or stood for.  

So put your big wide paint brush away, pick up a sharpened pencil and educate yourself on this concept called Non-binary thought and "nuance".  Just saying.  

It sure seems like you voted for your boy back in 2016. You know, nuance. But then it doesn't seem like you think Republicans should be held in any way accountable for supporting their/your boy. Now that I recall, I remember going over this before with you and you said he was a useful idiot. Yeah, that was when I realized he was your boy, expendable to be sure, but your boy.

Educate yourself on character. 274K COVID deaths and your boy suggests injecting bleach. Economy in freefall and your boy's Treasury Secretary locks up Congressionally allocated relief funds. Assassinates Soleimani and then lies about the resulting casualties from the inevitable reprisal.

Yeah, nuance. That's the ticket.

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5 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

It sure seems like you voted for your boy back in 2016. You know, nuance. But then it doesn't seem like you think Republicans should be held in any way accountable for supporting their/your boy. Now that I recall, I remember going over this before with you and you said he was a useful idiot. Yeah, that was when I realized he was your boy, expendable to be sure, but your boy.

Educate yourself on character. 274K COVID deaths and your boy suggests injecting bleach. Economy in freefall and your boy's Treasury Secretary locks up Congressionally allocated relief funds. Assassinates Soleimani and then lies about the resulting casualties from the inevitable reprisal.

Yeah, nuance. That's the ticket.

You're changing the subject as usual.  I didn't vote for chump in 2016.  I already stated that here.  I didn't vote that year for a number of reasons, all of which you can read about here in PA.  He was not and never has been "my boy".  I also said he was a useful idiot, Iirc, when I was talking about BTDB.  I said he was useful because he would like expose the GOP for the craven asshats they are.  I seem to have been proven right.  Even I surprise myself with my prescience on that subject.  

And the discussion was homophobia, racism, islamophobia, misogyny, etc.  Now you're changing your argument to covid and bleach.  I am and have been a vocal critic over his handling of the pandemic.  What do you think I'm defending here????

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10 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

... And the discussion was homophobia, racism, islamophobia, misogyny, etc ... What do you think I'm defending here????

You're defending Republicans who are defending Shitstain which you slough off in the name of nuance. Is that clear enough English for you?

Yes, we are discussing the etc.

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Just now, Olsonist said:

You're defending Republicans who are defending Shitstain which you slough off in the name of nuance. Is that clear enough English for you?

It's clear.  But you're wrong.  I am not defending anyone.  I'm in no way defending anyone who stood by trump throughout all of his antics.  I'm simply explaining to you that some people who have stood by him for other reasons than racism, homophobia, misogyny and such doesn't automatically make them racists, homo-haters, bigots, women haters, and such.  Is that clear enough for you?  Or do I need to draw you some pictures?

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1 minute ago, Burning Man said:

It's clear.  But you're wrong.  I am not defending anyone.  I'm in no way defending anyone who stood by trump throughout all of his antics.  I'm simply explaining to you that some people who have stood by him for other reasons than racism, homophobia, misogyny and such doesn't automatically make them racists, homo-haters, bigots, women haters, and such.  Is that clear enough for you?  Or do I need to draw you some pictures?

On 12/2/2020 at 10:28 AM, Burning Man said:

Some certainly are.  But half?  No.  Not even close.

That sure seems like you're defending someone there.

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31 minutes ago, Olsonist said:
On 12/2/2020 at 10:28 AM, Burning Man said:

Some certainly are.  But half?  No.  Not even close.

That sure seems like you're defending someone there.

Observing != Defending.  Not everything in life has to be partisan "gotcha".  

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31 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Observing != Defending.  Not everything in life has to be partisan "gotcha".  

Sure. So you're observing that Republicans who support their racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic boy Shitstain, you agreed with that description and electoral facts are electoral facts, that they are not even close to being racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic themselves but are instead nuanced. Still, nuanced or not, their political party, the Republican Party, that Bitch needs to be Burned To The Ground because ... because something, something nuanced.

That about right? So I guess these Republicans whose Bitch party needs to be Burned To The Ground must in fact be small government, fiscally conservative, states rights supporting, God-fearing patriots. But nuanced, definitely nuanced. And when their Bitch Is finally Burned To The Ground they'll all burst out singing Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead, right?

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7 hours ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

I need some fucking cookies. 

Wow, I never knew there was a different kind for that.

- DSK

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I don't think insulting deplorables is as off-putting as some are making it out to be. Pandemic deniers who encourage and enable mass death deserve our scorn. Climate deniers whose willful inaction or pandering to big oil (drilling ANWAR, for example) need to be castigated in the most severe terms. Those who would strip citizens of healthcare in the midst of a public health crisis need to be labeled anti-American and pilloried.

These are national security concerns, along with the wage/wealth gap, and framing the debate in those terms will make Democrats not only the stable leaders who rein in government spending (don't laugh without acknowledging historical assessments), but the ones who can pass major legislation and have a vision for America.

Want an infrastructure week that involves investing in infrastructure? Vote Dem

Want the burden of healthcare insurance removed from small businesses? Vote Dem

Want everyone in our country to have clean air and water? Do you think increases voter participation and better representatives are good for America? Vote Dem

And fuck those who want the opposite. They are traitors to the needs and goals of my country.

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On 12/1/2020 at 12:34 AM, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Don't tell Bennie - I don't think he'll cope. He's sorta like Dogballs Tom - good on the complaint and feeling bad snowflake thing, not so good at proposing ideas for change.

FKT

Your very first post in this thread claims "Quite a few of us have been telling you the same thing for months, including me on numerous occasions."

So it look as though my complaining snowflake bit just put me in a club.   Do you, dogballs, and the other "quite a few" get together occasionally?   I make a killer artichoke dip. 

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4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Wow, I never knew there was a different kind for that.

- DSK

They don't drop crumbs in the bed.

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3 hours ago, phillysailor said:

I don't think insulting deplorables is as off-putting as some are making it out to be. Pandemic deniers who encourage and enable mass death deserve our scorn. Climate deniers whose willful inaction or pandering to big oil (drilling ANWAR, for example) need to be castigated in the most severe terms. Those who would strip citizens of healthcare in the midst of a public health crisis need to be labeled anti-American and pilloried.

These are national security concerns, along with the wage/wealth gap, and framing the debate in those terms will make Democrats not only the stable leaders who rein in government spending (don't laugh without acknowledging historical assessments), but the ones who can pass major legislation and have a vision for America.

Want an infrastructure week that involves investing in infrastructure? Vote Dem

Want the burden of healthcare insurance removed from small businesses? Vote Dem

Want everyone in our country to have clean air and water? Do you think increases voter participation and better representatives are good for America? Vote Dem

And fuck those who want the opposite. They are traitors to the needs and goals of my country.

No, no, no - you need to reason with them to convince them of the error of their ways.

They have demonstrated that they respond to reason, facts, truth etc.

You just have to be nice to them while you do it.

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Well I don't know about y'all, but when someone gets up 

and lies right in my face, and does it repeatedly, 

they are talking down to me bigly. 

How can any half-way sentient human claim that 

the Drumph does not "talk down" to them??

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9 hours ago, phillysailor said:

I don't think insulting deplorables is as off-putting as some are making it out to be. Pandemic deniers who encourage and enable mass death deserve our scorn. Climate deniers whose willful inaction or pandering to big oil (drilling ANWAR, for example) need to be castigated in the most severe terms. Those who would strip citizens of healthcare in the midst of a public health crisis need to be labeled anti-American and pilloried.

These are national security concerns, along with the wage/wealth gap, and framing the debate in those terms will make Democrats not only the stable leaders who rein in government spending (don't laugh without acknowledging historical assessments), but the ones who can pass major legislation and have a vision for America.

Want an infrastructure week that involves investing in infrastructure? Vote Dem

Want the burden of healthcare insurance removed from small businesses? Vote Dem

Want everyone in our country to have clean air and water? Do you think increases voter participation and better representatives are good for America? Vote Dem

And fuck those who want the opposite. They are traitors to the needs and goals of my country.

Plus either Tump is a raving lunatic or is so amoral/narcissistic that he is willing to damage the United States with his I WON I WON BY A LOT claims in order to raise the $200+ million small donors have sent him and more, and retain GOP power via his cultlike base. (IF GOP PEOPLE DID NOT BELIEVE THE LATTER THEY WOULD HAVE USED A PAIR AND MOVED ON INSTEAD OF ENABLING HIM IN HIS CLAIMS)

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

Plus either Tump is a raving lunatic or is so amoral/narcissistic that he is willing to damage the United States with his I WON I WON BY A LOT claims in order to raise the $200+ million small donors have sent him and more, and retain GOP power via his cultlike base. (IF GOP PEOPLE DID NOT BELIEVE THE LATTER THEY WOULD HAVE USED A PAIR AND MOVED ON INSTEAD OF ENABLING HIM IN HIS CLAIMS)

It's not an either/or thing here. He is all those things. He is very Darwinian, he wants to be the last man standing.

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21 hours ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

humans ARE nuance

the kings of nuance

optimally adapted to continually scan the environment and make fast useful decisions to maximize their immediate and future economic opportunities

 

They are. 

 I suspect a root of Cult Trump is that he's the champion of stupid people. Half the people are below average intelligence, there's a lot of them about. Like Jethro Tull (Thick As A Brick), put yourself in their shoes for a moment: 

 All your life you get kidded for being dumb. When you think you are smart and try to show it...you get laughed at (a form of bullying). Inferiority complex sets in...heavily reinforced concrete.  Now along comes a guy who sounds just like the things running around in your head...and he is elected POTUS! You knew you were smart all along!!  You KNEW IT!!!  

 

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