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Roy166808

29er kite hoist system new

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Does it come down slower?

 

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I think this one of those things where you send the $100 and your bank account information and then they tell you.

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Can't add additional hardware. So I'm confused as to how a different system would work as well. 

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Sounds like a 1:2 system, which again you would need to add a block which would not be legal. That said, I don't recall the rules saying it needs to be 1:1 (it's been several years since since I've read them), but that you can't add hardware..... Which as someone that owned a 10 year old boat when I bought it, was kind of difficult to figure out what was original and what wasn't lol. 

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1 hour ago, mustang__1 said:

Sounds like a 1:2 system, which again you would need to add a block which would not be legal. That said, I don't recall the rules saying it needs to be 1:1 (it's been several years since since I've read them), but that you can't add hardware..... Which as someone that owned a 10 year old boat when I bought it, was kind of difficult to figure out what was original and what wasn't lol. 

Can you build a slippery dyneema loop that has enough structure, and is slippery enough?

Would a "pure rope" thingamajig be legal?

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5 hours ago, martin 'hoff said:

Can you build a slippery dyneema loop that has enough structure, and is slippery enough?

Would a "pure rope" thingamajig be legal?

Yes i believe so you can add any block to your boat is what it says in the rules

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A 29er is a "closed class" one design, so unless it specifically says that you can add something (be it a block or a cleat, etc etc) YOU CAN'T.

So adding additional block(s) to make a reverse 2:1 spinnaker system would be ilegal!    YOU CAN'T DO IT.

Plus you will probably tear the cleat off the deck, and you would need to be extrodinarly strong to make it work.

This is not a 420/470 rat cleat system, which is very clever, but then again a 29er spin is not small, and a rat cleat would not hack it!

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3 hours ago, Roy166808 said:

Yes i believe so you can add any block to your boat is what it says in the rules

I believe it says shock cord usage is unrestricted, or did circa 2014. 

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4 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

I believe it says shock cord usage is unrestricted, or did circa 2014. 

An elastic halyard, great idea!!

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10 hours ago, sosoomii said:

An elastic halyard, great idea!!

That's not ... Ah.... Eh... you do you 

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On 12/2/2020 at 9:01 AM, JulianB said:

A 29er is a "closed class" one design, so unless it specifically says that you can add something (be it a block or a cleat, etc etc) YOU CAN'T.

So adding additional block(s) to make a reverse 2:1 spinnaker system would be ilegal!    YOU CAN'T DO IT.

Plus you will probably tear the cleat off the deck, and you would need to be extrodinarly strong to make it work.

This is not a 420/470 rat cleat system, which is very clever, but then again a 29er spin is not small, and a rat cleat would not hack it!

You can add any block to your boat it says that in the rules

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1:2? Same way the sprit launcher works. Or the opposite way a 2:1 works. Dead end the halyard at the top of the mast, run it through your block that you can apparently now add since block use is unrestricted (according to you), through the halyard block at the top of the mast, then down to your kite. Tie a line to the becket on the block and run it down as you would a normal halyard. Instead of pulling the sail up directly, you now pull the block which pulls the halyard which pulls the sail. 

 

Shit the last time I read the rules I think they had to specially allow a take-up block for the spin halyard. It was also the year they were going to start allowing turnbuckles. Which I'm bummed out I missed. 

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Go look at https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/29er2019CR0701-[24885].pdf

Those are the class rules, nothing else counts! You Can't do it

If you think you can do it under C.9.6 (vii) then it's a very long blow to draw, you will come head to head with Barry Johnsone (the I29erCM)  in Perth and I am 1000% sure he will say no, at best, you will be pulling on shockcord, and that is exactly the take up block system that is being mentioned by Mustang above.

let me know how you go, but I am very sure you won't be going anywhere.      

                                  jB

  

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23 hours ago, Roy166808 said:

You can add any block to your boat it says that in the rules

You do realise who you are talking to don't you? Its *that* Julian B.

In any case even if someone managed to persuade a protest committee that some piece of logic chopping meant something like this was not prohibited you can be very sure in any well managed class - and the 29er is well managed - that a clarification would be speedily issued. 

Actually I wonder if someone has been winding you up with a mythical system. 1:2s are all very well in old school boats with tiny pole kites and the helm pulling the kite up, but getting enough throw in the 29er might be difficult, and the sheer effort challenging for the crew.

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49 minutes ago, JimC said:

You do realise who you are talking to don't you? Its *that* Julian B.

In any case even if someone managed to persuade a protest committee that some piece of logic chopping meant something like this was not prohibited you can be very sure in any well managed class - and the 29er is well managed - that a clarification would be speedily issued. 

Actually I wonder if someone has been winding you up with a mythical system. 1:2s are all very well in old school boats with tiny pole kites and the helm pulling the kite up, but getting enough throw in the 29er might be difficult, and the sheer effort challenging for the crew.

Launching a water logged sprit would have me wanting to horse kick my skipper in the face as it is if they plugged the bow in a wave.... Let alone if we capsized.

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Please explain what *that* Julian B is? you rmaking me sound like a 3 headed monstor!

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I was waiting for the "What would you know, do you even sail in the class Julian?" question from the OP! :D

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On 12/2/2020 at 12:54 AM, martin 'hoff said:

Can you build a slippery dyneema loop that has enough structure, and is slippery enough?

Would a "pure rope" thingamajig be legal?

could you explain please?

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On 12/5/2020 at 8:20 AM, JulianB said:

Please explain what *that* Julian B is? you rmaking me sound like a 3 headed monstor!

I'm fairly cirtain that three heads are not specifically permitted by the rules, and therefore not permitted. You're going to have to make an effort to keep up.

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2 hours ago, European Bloke said:

I'm fairly cirtain that three heads are not specifically permitted by the rules, and therefore not permitted. You're going to have to make an effort to keep up.

???

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38 minutes ago, Roy166808 said:

???

Roy... please go to the top of this thread and READ everything posted.  If you still don’t understand, read it all again until you do.

post #22 is where the 3 headed monster reference first appears, perhaps even click on the Wikipedia link in post #24 to educate yourself on who is posting and why they should know stuff about the 29er

 

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3 hours ago, European Bloke said:

I'm fairly cirtain that three heads are not specifically permitted by the rules, and therefore not permitted. You're going to have to make an effort to keep up.

Three heads is fine as long as they are part of the sails and not part of the sailors...

Cheers,

              W.

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Five heads permitted counting the sails and the sailors...

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On 12/5/2020 at 10:03 AM, JimC said:

You do realise who you are talking to don't you? Its *that* Julian B.

In any case even if someone managed to persuade a protest committee that some piece of logic chopping meant something like this was not prohibited you can be very sure in any well managed class - and the 29er is well managed - that a clarification would be speedily issued. 

Actually I wonder if someone has been winding you up with a mythical system. 1:2s are all very well in old school boats with tiny pole kites and the helm pulling the kite up, but getting enough throw in the 29er might be difficult, and the sheer effort challenging for the crew.

Yeah ik im a dumbass and read the wrong class rules

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WRT the 29er, F/Stay, Shrouds and Trapeze wires must be wire, and the sizes are specified.

You can do what you want, elsewhere.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am aware that there are rumblings WRT the use of DM20 "dynema" WRT (to the 29er) shrouds and F/Stay, mostly because it safer.     You can cut DM20 with a knife in the event of entrapment, knifes are infinitely more prevelant than wire/bolt cutter and infinitely more useable underwater.

So I have been sounded out, but I need to stress, lots of hurdeles to pass before it can be used, and I am the very last stage in that process, but I believe it has merit, and have said that if it got to me, I would support it!

It also happens to be Cheaper, Far friendlier to bodies in the event you get flung into them, Last longer, and far Simpler to supply.   It also allows far simpler rig tension systems, both in terms of adjustment and actually applying the tension (boat breakers) you don't have to replace turnbuckles in the even that you wish to replace the shrouds, you don't need the F/Stay adjuster, and it's enviormentally friendlier a and a full set of 29er wire shrouds is about 3kgs, DM20, I'm guessing 1/4kg in total.   Completely reto-fittable.

I have suggested that if they trial it they standardise on M4 DM20, it's up the luff of the jib anyway, and the difference aerodynamically between M3 and M4 DM20 is 2/10's of not much.    The difference between M3 Dyform and M4 DM20, given the far less inertia of DM20, (it won't harmonic/oscilate), the M4 DM20 is possibly less.

WRT trapeeze wires, I'm a bit of a stickler, again for reasons of safety, so I am not about to entertain rope trapeze wires.    The difference being, one is under tension all the time, the other is not.   For the same reason I mandated spinnaker halyard take-ups on the floor, I intend to stay with wire trapeze wires.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WRT the 49er, the new mast spec includes the ability to rig the new mast with "synthetic" (SK99/DM20) Caps and F/stay as of now.

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Will dyneema be more friendly to the body than wire? I think when being flung into the shroud it's not the hardness of the material, but the tension on it, that is stopping it from yielding? 

My worry with dyneema would be it's not got the same abrasion resistance as steel. Dyneema needs more regular inspection.

Plus, doesn't the stretch and creep of dyneema make rig tuning a little more difficult? If a dyneema halyard creeps by one or two inches, you can snug it up. But for standing rigging which cannot be adjusted whilst racing it could be come an issue?

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yeah, I'd also like to understand the thinking behind "wire is safer" for trapezes - @Mozzy Sails @JulianB.

WRT dyneema, I find that top of the line heat-set, prestretched dyneema is really good on creep/stretch. Sailing in Miami, chafe vs hidden crevice corrosion... corrosion is the bigger risk IME.

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Loose wire is probably less prone to wrapping round limbs than loose rope. 

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You want the trap wires to sink in the case of a capsize or inversion, not remain on the surface where the occupants are more likely to get caught.

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If you go across to 5o5, calculating forestry tension, I just happened to do a bit there a few days ago re stretch.

Very interestingly I just found out that 49er Cap shrouds in SK78 harmonic, (can't be the F/stay because it's inside the luff if the jib) but vibrating Caps, that's fascinating.

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4 hours ago, JulianB said:

 

Very interestingly I just found out that 49er Cap shrouds in SK78 harmonic, (can't be the F/stay because it's inside the luff if the jib) but vibrating Caps, that's fascinating.

Hi Julian

Momentary thread drift, but are you still travelling up to Brissie?

I can add a question about SK78 if it helps

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Yes I am but flying both ways  I have just run out of time. I'm presently in Canberra, get home late tomorrow, and need to be in Brisbane for business Friday, sailing over the weekend, last flight Sunday night.

There will be another.    jB

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2 hours ago, JulianB said:

Yes I am but flying both ways  I have just run out of time. I'm presently in Canberra, get home late tomorrow, and need to be in Brisbane for business Friday, sailing over the weekend, last flight Sunday night.

There will be another.    jB

I'm sure there will

Have a great sail

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On 12/8/2020 at 3:36 PM, JulianB said:

WRT the 29er, F/Stay, Shrouds and Trapeze wires must be wire, and the sizes are specified.

You can do what you want, elsewhere.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am aware that there are rumblings WRT the use of DM20 "dynema" WRT (to the 29er) shrouds and F/Stay, mostly because it safer.     You can cut DM20 with a knife in the event of entrapment, knifes are infinitely more prevelant than wire/bolt cutter and infinitely more useable underwater.

So I have been sounded out, but I need to stress, lots of hurdeles to pass before it can be used, and I am the very last stage in that process, but I believe it has merit, and have said that if it got to me, I would support it!

It also happens to be Cheaper, Far friendlier to bodies in the event you get flung into them, Last longer, and far Simpler to supply.   It also allows far simpler rig tension systems, both in terms of adjustment and actually applying the tension (boat breakers) you don't have to replace turnbuckles in the even that you wish to replace the shrouds, you don't need the F/Stay adjuster, and it's enviormentally friendlier a and a full set of 29er wire shrouds is about 3kgs, DM20, I'm guessing 1/4kg in total.   Completely reto-fittable.

I have suggested that if they trial it they standardise on M4 DM20, it's up the luff of the jib anyway, and the difference aerodynamically between M3 and M4 DM20 is 2/10's of not much.    The difference between M3 Dyform and M4 DM20, given the far less inertia of DM20, (it won't harmonic/oscilate), the M4 DM20 is possibly less.

WRT trapeeze wires, I'm a bit of a stickler, again for reasons of safety, so I am not about to entertain rope trapeze wires.    The difference being, one is under tension all the time, the other is not.   For the same reason I mandated spinnaker halyard take-ups on the floor, I intend to stay with wire trapeze wires.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WRT the 49er, the new mast spec includes the ability to rig the new mast with "synthetic" (SK99/DM20) Caps and F/stay as of now.

I have found online there is an old style 5o5 hook with a ring on the end of it so you can attach dyneema, which i am tempted to use for training because my trap wires are starting to fray, you've probably all ready covered this in your message but your saying they could be legal at one point?

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On 12/8/2020 at 11:00 PM, martin 'hoff said:

yeah, I'd also like to understand the thinking behind "wire is safer" for trapezes - @Mozzy Sails @JulianB.

WRT dyneema, I find that top of the line heat-set, prestretched dyneema is really good on creep/stretch. Sailing in Miami, chafe vs hidden crevice corrosion... corrosion is the bigger risk IME.

trap wires would work it provides a lot more a lighter feel and i've seen on a 5o5 where someone has made one full line of dyneema right to the cleat but it has a eye splice that is adjustable so when the rope that touches the cleat gets damaged you pull it up a small amount and its fresh dyneema but they also have excess rope at the top so it does not affect the height.

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Most people cut their 29er wires to the min length then add either a finger trap or laser-hiking-strap-style-adjuster to adjust height of the cleat, so you don't need as long of an adjuster for the cleat and also because lunging for the puck when you're hanging off the back of the boat really sucks. I prefer the finger trap style but it's tough to splice everything so short. You can make your own trap wires - just get good wire and a crimp tool. If there are any 470 (maybe i420?) sailors around they probably already have a crimp tool. Sure it won't be as pretty as a nice spliced wire but it'll be cheap. Though i think new trap wires are pretty cheap anyway - can't imagine a rigger charging much for them. 

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15 hours ago, Roy166808 said:

trap wires would work it provides a lot more a lighter feel 

I have a full dyneema trapeze on one of my cats and I love it. It has an adjustable portion as discussed, and it just feels good and light.

The wire trapezes on the other cat feel heavy and rudimentary.

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Re mozzy,

Rod rigging cuts like a cheese knife, where as the same diameter 1:7 of Dy form dose not.   DM20 Cuts even less. 

Re Roy, I can't see 29ers having synthetic trapeze wires any time soon.     That is a step way too far!

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3 hours ago, JulianB said:

I can't see 29ers having synthetic trapeze wires any time soon.

Why though? In 420er that was the class rule too and we did it with no issue beside the usual work around to adjust clew height.
Best reason at the time we got was one about chafe and how a suddenly failing trapeze can lead to unnecessary injury.(worse on the 49er with footloops though)

Never had an issue in the 49er with dyneema trapeze. Tangling wise ejection usually ensures being away from the rigging and otherwise I am more prone to get aquainted with the main sheet/bridle and that too is not a case of getting dragged underwater.

Simply put, I am really not getting the issue. Can you explain it for me?(again) Seems I am missing something important.

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OK, there is a huge difference between a 29er and a 49er, that being age.

One is sailed by adults who are responsible for themselves.   The other is sailed by youth, mostly under 18, even under 16.

Wire sinks almost immediatly, out of harrms way.      Rope dose not!

End of story!

 

 

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27 minutes ago, JulianB said:

 

End of story!

 

 

Lousy weekend for sailing in Brissie.

I hope you brought your wet weather gear.

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Hi Rambler, the pin got pulled, so I stayed in Sydney.

Beautiful weekend in the city of the Gods!

37 29ers sailing in Sail Sydney (biggest fleet) got lots of work down on my new project, even did the 4th SeaHorse articel. 

Even did some chores, so the wife loves me.

Plan is to go back up there early Feb, not sure if I will drive or fly, but rest assured if I drive, your shout for breaky!!!!!!!!

              jB

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10 hours ago, JulianB said:

The other is sailed by youth, mostly under 18, even under 16.

Wire sinks almost immediatly, out of harrms way.      Rope dose not!

I can understand that reasoning. Not necessarily agree on the logic, but in this case experience certainly trumps arm chair reasoning.
I did start 420er at age fifteen and that is the norm around here for 29er as well if not younger by now with kids getting taller.(or feel like that at least) The risk issue really is different from the bigger boats with more inexperienced sailors.

 

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I have had 5 or 6 entrapment episodes.

2, myself, both ropes, one was 1978-9, the other was 1990ish, both 18teens.

Then Magnus Gravare (now runs Swedish Yachting) was sailing my 49er in Helsinki, early 2000, possibly late 90's, and the trap hook got caught around the shroud, Honey Adbasal (Spanish legend/coach) cut him out with wire cutters (Felco C7's) and he spent a night in hospital (I flew in that day and was taken straight to the hospital).   Some say he is better after his ordeal (if your reading this Magnus), last time I saw him was Heathrow airport, and that was 4-5 years ago !

Matt (Pillow) Pearce, sailing with David (TF) Witt and Andrew (Noddy) Hay got caught by a rope, TF and Noddy, duck dived and blew air into his mouth until they could free him (an 18teen, big capsize), and he spent a few days in Hospital.

Then we had the 29er kid getting caught 2-3 years ago in LA.

But the one that really bears on my thinking, I was told about this at a WS conference, I was in a group of maybe 5, and everyone’s reaction was the same, young girl, sailing a youth boat in North America (not a 29er) got a bit of what was believed to be spectra around her leg, dragged under and fought so hard, the rope cut through to her bone.  She did not survive.

One of those in that group from memory, was Paddy Boyle, Irish, used to run Irish Sailing, later ran Canadian Sailing but I think he is now back in Ireland, but he said something along the line of, "more people died each year in Ireland, from drowning, while horse riding, than people die world-wide from sailing."   He was certainly not playing it down, far from it, more likely that we need to get it to zero.   

And that's my philosophy also.

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1 hour ago, JulianB said:

I have had 5 or 6 entrapment episodes.

2, myself, both ropes, one was 1978-9, the other was 1990ish, both 18teens.

Then Magnus Gravare (now runs Swedish Yachting) was sailing my 49er in Helsinki, early 2000, possibly late 90's, and the trap hook got caught around the shroud, Honey Adbasal (Spanish legend/coach) cut him out with wire cutters (Felco C7's) and he spent a night in hospital (I flew in that day and was taken straight to the hospital).   Some say he is better after his ordeal (if your reading this Magnus), last time I saw him was Heathrow airport, and that was 4-5 years ago !

Matt (Pillow) Pearce, sailing with David (TF) Witt and Andrew (Noddy) Hay got caught by a rope, TF and Noddy, duck dived and blew air into his mouth until they could free him (an 18teen, big capsize), and he spent a few days in Hospital.

Then we had the 29er kid getting caught 2-3 years ago in LA.

But the one that really bears on my thinking, I was told about this at a WS conference, I was in a group of maybe 5, and everyone’s reaction was the same, young girl, sailing a youth boat in North America (not a 29er) got a bit of what was believed to be spectra around her leg, dragged under and fought so hard, the rope cut through to her bone.  She did not survive.

One of those in that group from memory, was Paddy Boyle, Irish, used to run Irish Sailing, later ran Canadian Sailing but I think he is now back in Ireland, but he said something along the line of, "more people died each year in Ireland, from drowning, while horse riding, than people die world-wide from sailing."   He was certainly not playing it down, far from it, more likely that we need to get it to zero.   

And that's my philosophy also.

That 420 one is never far from my mind as I'm teaching new skiff sailors.

I recall you can add a FD sailor in Australia to that list, maybe 15 years ago (hook caught on a shroud if I recall correctly).

Plus I recall a few cat sailors with hooks through the netting have also  had a problem. I remember a specific one in Greece, must be 25 to 30 years ago.

Plus, sadly and too close to home, a Brisbane 18 sailors a few years ago, although I understand that was a sail entrapment, rather than a rope one.

It's a talk I give my newbie skiff sailors as we are first going through the shore drill''... "once every 5 to 10 years, somewhere in the world..." Then I discuss my (limited)  knowledge of the attempts to develop a quick release hook, talk about the Velcro as an escape from the Zhik trap belts I lend them and insist they wear their lifevests inside the trap belt to ensure it doesn't hinder an escape.

But of course, if its a foot entrapment or a sail one, that doesn't help.

But you've hit the nail on the perspective head of the other side of that talk I actually give. I cite my daughters - to afraid of sailing (mainly sharks) to take it up - who instead did horse riding. Many a day I've sat with one of the girls (wife included) in casualty with a broken arm. And I suspect there's been a concussion too in one case. Go figure!

(By the way, I tell such as my students who express a concern that I've never heard of anyone being taken by a shark from a capsized dinghy. Tell me if I'm wrong. The books on the old 18's and 22's (we're talking pre WW1 here) talk about sharks in the context of boats that used to sink when they capsized (so as far as I'm concerned they don't count), but actually never cite specific episodes.

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Never knew it was a 420. Surprising, but it can happen anywhere.

It was the Magnus episode that set me off on the quick release search (ie mine was far more sophisticated than velcro) but we abandoned that when I watch sailor imobilising the quick release and the lead to the keyball system that still sell 3-4 thousand ( we dont) each year.

Dad and I look at the provision patent and decided to let that one go to the keeper (we did not finalise)

WS & the ICA missed a massive opportunity 2-3 years ago to "change the world".

Their stupidity.

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Oh, btw, again WS, the belief Is 2-3 people do not surive entrapment each year.    Very low risk but also very real.

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18 minutes ago, JulianB said:

Never knew it was a 420.

Only learnt it here.

I couldn't find the thread but I recall the skipper heard an "oh, oh" as they went into the tack.

My training normally starts with what I call a 'three phase' tack and gybe. Come in and unhitch, execute and then go out and power up. But as we quickly move on to one phase tacks, it emphasizes to call 'stop' if they get caught up, to let the skipper cancel the tack (go into irons if you have to). In reality, all you get is a squeal. So the skipper has to be taught to react to that instead.

16 minutes ago, JulianB said:

Oh, btw, again WS, the belief Is 2-3 people do not surive entrapment each year.    Very low risk but also very real.

 That is beyond alarming if we are talking fatalities. Not really as low a risk as I'd like. Is there anywhere I can go back to the source on that information? Don't want to mislead my students, but I don't want to needlessly alarm them either.

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When you travel in Asia and mid week they launch close to 1300 sailors before lunch, and do it again with mostly different sailor atfer lunch (same boats) and there are 800 venues in that country doing it. I have personally witnessed 5 such venues, from right in the north to the SE.  Same again in another country, middle size countries about 1/2 that.   Tomorrow in Sydney there will be 400 yachts, so say 2,000 people beer can racing, and so on and so on, the actual number sailing is staggering.

2-3 is still too many, but as a %, you have more chance of dying swallowing a chip backwards.

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And that is why I defer to experience. And carry a knife.
Though the best "solution" I found is to get clear when things go south. Not when the mast is already pointing down. And train my crew to do the same. If only to avoid slamming into the hull from up high.(and end with me repairing stuff too ;)
Windsurfing taught me a thing or two about panic moments when you went full speed and suddenly slam into the sail, then underwater as you caught the wrong rail, went airborne unintentionally.

I had not heard of that extreme case in the 420er. That sounds about as horrible as it can get. 420 itself on very calm days we sometimes did a drill about how there is a breathable air bubble in the overturned hull. Though that becomes quickly useless in waves and things become complicated. Though again, I never had a proper problem in my group, nor did my trainer mention it in particular. Though hectic moments did happen.

 

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14 hours ago, JulianB said:

I have had 5 or 6 entrapment episodes.

2, myself, both ropes, one was 1978-9, the other was 1990ish, both 18teens.

Then Magnus Gravare (now runs Swedish Yachting) was sailing my 49er in Helsinki, early 2000, possibly late 90's, and the trap hook got caught around the shroud, Honey Adbasal (Spanish legend/coach) cut him out with wire cutters (Felco C7's) and he spent a night in hospital (I flew in that day and was taken straight to the hospital).   Some say he is better after his ordeal (if your reading this Magnus), last time I saw him was Heathrow airport, and that was 4-5 years ago !

Matt (Pillow) Pearce, sailing with David (TF) Witt and Andrew (Noddy) Hay got caught by a rope, TF and Noddy, duck dived and blew air into his mouth until they could free him (an 18teen, big capsize), and he spent a few days in Hospital.

Then we had the 29er kid getting caught 2-3 years ago in LA.

But the one that really bears on my thinking, I was told about this at a WS conference, I was in a group of maybe 5, and everyone’s reaction was the same, young girl, sailing a youth boat in North America (not a 29er) got a bit of what was believed to be spectra around her leg, dragged under and fought so hard, the rope cut through to her bone.  She did not survive.

One of those in that group from memory, was Paddy Boyle, Irish, used to run Irish Sailing, later ran Canadian Sailing but I think he is now back in Ireland, but he said something along the line of, "more people died each year in Ireland, from drowning, while horse riding, than people die world-wide from sailing."   He was certainly not playing it down, far from it, more likely that we need to get it to zero.   

And that's my philosophy also.

Not bring up sad stuff, but I don't believe I'm familiar with the 29er incident? The 420 I was under the impression her trap hook got caught in those aweful trap rings 420s used to be supplied with. I was not aware of a line being caught around a leg?

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There's some valuable information in the second half of this thread.

Is there any way to change the thread title so that this safety discussion isn't lost?

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9 minutes ago, Alan Crawford said:

There's some valuable information in the second half of this thread.

Is there any way to change the thread title so that this safety discussion isn't lost?

You could reach to the ed or whoever else is helping mod this site, but I don't believe things are ever retitled. Way back in 05 I think I was able to rename threads as OP though. 

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The incident in LA WRT a 29er, I don't have the details as the class handled it very eloquently, but as I understand it;

A mature (older than 20) South African male, 80+ kgs was sailing with a young (less than 18) American female 45-50kgs, who was steering.

Light air tack, crew (male) did the in front of the mast thing, they where 3rd or 4th in the Silver heat at the worlds, so not idiots, but it went pear shaped, and they capsized.

Crew ended up entrapped, went under, no definitive statement on how he was entrapped, but they were in close proximity to other boats.  The girl was (obviously) in distress, crews from other boats, rendered assistance, boy surfaced not well, one of those crews that rendered assistance (an Australian and a Frenchman) knew resuscitation, and assisted. There where also plenty of rescue boats in close proximity, he was transfered at speed and spent a short stint in hospital, but is apparently none the worst for his ordeal.    Still sailing 29ers.

To me, and I have not looked at the report or any details, it sounds very much like the Mangus Gravare scenario, where it was a trapeze hook that got jammed in the shrouds, but that is pure speculation, it may well have been something else.

That’s all I know, I have been told it has been fully dealt with by the I29erCA and WS.

The Australian was duly praised/awarded for his efforts on his return home.

                               jB

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5 hours ago, JulianB said:

The incident in LA WRT a 29er, I don't have the details as the class handled it very eloquently, but as I understand it;

A mature (older than 20) South African male, 80+ kgs was sailing with a young (less than 18) American female 45-50kgs, who was steering.

Light air tack, crew (male) did the in front of the mast thing, they where 3rd or 4th in the Silver heat at the worlds, so not idiots, but it went pear shaped, and they capsized.

Crew ended up entrapped, went under, no definitive statement on how he was entrapped, but they were in close proximity to other boats.  The girl was (obviously) in distress, crews from other boats, rendered assistance, boy surfaced not well, one of those crews that rendered assistance (an Australian and a Frenchman) knew resuscitation, and assisted. There where also plenty of rescue boats in close proximity, he was transfered at speed and spent a short stint in hospital, but is apparently none the worst for his ordeal.    Still sailing 29ers.

To me, and I have not looked at the report or any details, it sounds very much like the Mangus Gravare scenario, where it was a trapeze hook that got jammed in the shrouds, but that is pure speculation, it may well have been something else.

That’s all I know, I have been told it has been fully dealt with by the I29erCA and WS.

The Australian was duly praised/awarded for his efforts on his return home.

                               jB

My mistake, I read it initially as a drowning. I'm glad to see i misread that. 

 

I've had two trap hook incidents that gave me pause. Once on the xx in light air, I think I was passing from in front of the shrouds to aft, and I think the hook got caught on the lowers. No capsize, nothing happened, but I was aware of a similar incident with, if I recall, a laser 4000? Or is that the incident you are referring to?

The other we were doing tacking drills and I botched unclipping and brought the boat over on top of me. Popped up between the hull and the boom, and my skipper got to the board before the boat turtles. My rwo trap ring (somewhat v shaped) got stuck sideways on a dakine (overly large beak). It took more than a few seconds to clear it. Again, nothing bad, but it stands out in my mind as "oh yeah. Things can happen". It'd have been a lot more tenuous if my helm didn't get on the board right away. I replaced the harness shortly after, and the rings a while later with ronstan rings. Don't recall ever having anymore issues. 

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46 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

My mistake, I read it initially as a drowning. I'm glad to see i misread that. 

 

I've had two trap hook incidents that gave me pause. Once on the xx in light air, I think I was passing from in front of the shrouds to aft, and I think the hook got caught on the lowers. No capsize, nothing happened, but I was aware of a similar incident with, if I recall, a laser 4000? Or is that the incident you are referring to?

The other we were doing tacking drills and I botched unclipping and brought the boat over on top of me. Popped up between the hull and the boom, and my skipper got to the board before the boat turtles. My rwo trap ring (somewhat v shaped) got stuck sideways on a dakine (overly large beak). It took more than a few seconds to clear it. Again, nothing bad, but it stands out in my mind as "oh yeah. Things can happen". It'd have been a lot more tenuous if my helm didn't get on the board right away. I replaced the harness shortly after, and the rings a while later with ronstan rings. Don't recall ever having anymore issues. 

Hi Mustang

To try and transfer the discussion to a specialised thread, I have put a reply to your comments on the new thread.

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