Stingray~

Practice Races This Week

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51 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Kiwis smiling after day one.! Yes it's early too. 

 

Awesome video, thanks Live Sail Die! Interesting to see that American Magic have their odd cut down main on with the weird bat wing like leeches - sandbagging perhaps? Also you can see the mast mounted cameras on all three boats. Gonna get some cool footage from these. And what’s going on at 3:30 with AM wiping out in the background?!

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1 minute ago, Lat35sowth said:

Looking at the up close video footage of these things blasting by in silence is insane and they aren't even pushing them yet!

I dont even think the brainstrust would have imagined how exciting and adrenaline packed these boats were going to be.

I loved the last cup with those cats but after this cup IMO they will look  old.

I hope they use drones in the tv coverage.

Yeah it promises to be very exciting if the boats can stay close enough to each other? Pity Sailing Anarchy's Editor doesn't agree with you? I can't see why you wouldn't like to see this sort of racing with these types of boats but I'm not Scott Tempesta? :D

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Hard to concentrate at work while checking the vids thanks to everyone posting here in the absence of TV. Am definitely not regretting booking the airfares for next week. Please huey be kind for 4 days, and please nobody escape from quarantine in the next week.

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1 hour ago, fish7yu said:

 

Very nice on the water footage and commentary of practice day 1.

yup...said before, chris steele has a cruisey commentary,  hope to hear him rather than some foreigners on the commentary.

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Check out the Kiwis v AM at the 35 second mark.  I'm not sure if AM was holding high because there wasn't anything in the video to say this occurred at what point?

 

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18 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Check out the Kiwis v AM at the 35 second mark.  I'm not sure if AM was holding high because there wasn't anything in the video to say this occurred at what point?

 

Surely not... WTF

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2 hours ago, Hemi said:

Awesome video, thanks Live Sail Die! Interesting to see that American Magic have their odd cut down main on with the weird bat wing like leeches - sandbagging perhaps? Also you can see the mast mounted cameras on all three boats. Gonna get some cool footage from these. And what’s going on at 3:30 with AM wiping out in the background?!

they found a penny

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35 minutes ago, minimumfuss said:

Surely not... WTF

Obviously AM mainsail was the heavy weather batwing one which suited the heavier air later in the day. Having said that it seems the TR is not lacking for pace in especially in the lighter airs. AC35 all over again? 

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"While the Kiwis might have lost their contested starts, they looked to be pointing higher and sailing faster."

Looks like an uphill battle for the challengers. 

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1 minute ago, winchfodder said:

"While the Kiwis might have lost their contested starts, they looked to be pointing higher and sailing faster."

Looks like an uphill battle for the challengers. 

Though AM had her small main on. And it appears a smaller jib. So who knows what difference putting the large sails on in light winds could make

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1 hour ago, winchfodder said:

"While the Kiwis might have lost their contested starts, they looked to be pointing higher and sailing faster."

Looks like an uphill battle for the challengers. 

So I reckon ETNZ have got to be hot favourites for this, but honestly I think these practice days and next weeks races mean fark all cos they will all be dragging a tonne of sandbags behind them, with the possible exception of INEOS who look to have built a dog.

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7 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Yeah it promises to be very exciting if the boats can stay close enough to each other? Pity Sailing Anarchy's Editor doesn't agree with you? I can't see why you wouldn't like to see this sort of racing with these types of boats but I'm not Scott Tempesta? :D

The speeds are exciting but I do think we will be seeing a lot of video on one boat sailing by itself. The separations are going to be huge. Except for the start, I think it will be difficult to get both boats in one video frame. And unless both boats get onto their foils at the same time, one is gone. A horizon job like we have never seen. 

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3 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Though AM had her small main on. And it appears a smaller jib. So who knows what difference putting the large sails on in light winds could make

I've noticed that AM quite often sail with their smallest jib (~45m2) when others are on, say, a J2 of 60-70m2. Since these boats are frequently depowering anyway, I'm wondering if they are trying to increase weather helm... I suppose the rudder could be providing some lift to windward then as well.

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1 minute ago, MaxHugen said:

I've noticed that AM quite often sail with their smallest jib (~45m2) when others are on, say, a J2 of 60-70m2. Since these boats are frequently depowering anyway, I'm wondering if they are trying to increase weather helm... I suppose the rudder could be providing some lift to windward then as well.

Well you certainly wouldn't use the smaller main then! 

And in reality you would increase mast rake for that

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21 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Well you certainly wouldn't use the smaller main then! 

And in reality you would increase mast rake for that

Not sure how these 2 pt foilers are, but the mast foot pressure is absolutely huge in lots of foilers. Initially I'd really thought the helm balance through rig rake would be different from traditional craft, but if anything it's just multiplied.

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42 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

I've noticed that AM quite often sail with their smallest jib (~45m2) when others are on, say, a J2 of 60-70m2. Since these boats are frequently depowering anyway, I'm wondering if they are trying to increase weather helm... I suppose the rudder could be providing some lift to windward then as well.

I'm convinced it's about how much they can or willing to twist the main. If you can lower the center of effort with more twist when sailing upwind or on a reach, you can carry more sail, which comes handy when you're trying to sail deep downwind.

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40 minutes ago, RMac said:

Initially I'd really thought the helm balance through rig rake would be different from traditional craft, but if anything it's just multiplied.

Balance must surely be incredibly important given the power and the very-thin rudders.. 

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The commentary seems a bit muddled, Mark Orams says "When TNZ and Luna Rossa lined up, I thought the Italians had a slight edge upwind" and Chris Steel says that although the kiwis started on the hip of LR with LR to leeward, they were able to gauge up to weather and roll them on the upwind beat.  My bet's on the Kiwis being VMG monsters like they were in Bermuda.  

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2 minutes ago, Apterix said:

My bet's on the Kiwis being VMG monsters like they were in Bermuda.  

My general sense of it too from reading a variety of accounts and posts, plus some of the vids. In the ETNZ vid they speak of not winning some starts but I think they’re just being ‘diplomatic’; if you can sail over the top up that first beat anyway, wth cares? 

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

My general sense of it too from reading a variety of accounts and posts, plus some of the vids. In the ETNZ vid they speak of not winning some starts but I think they’re just being ‘diplomatic’; if you can sail over the top up that first beat anyway, wth cares? 

So ETNZ have appeared in EVERY cup match since 1995 with the exception of the Deed of Gift clusters, so they are a consistently top flight team and arguably the most successful team in cup history.

Combine that with the massive advantage they have from having scribed the rule and it will be damned difficult to beat them.

My money is on American Magic to be the (unsuccessful) challenger.

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4 minutes ago, jaysper said:

So ETNZ have appeared in EVERY cup match since 1995 with the exception of the Deed of Gift clusters, so they are a consistently top flight team and arguably the most successful team in cup history.

Combine that with the massive advantage they have from having scribed the rule and it will be damned difficult to beat them.

My money is on American Magic to be the (unsuccessful) challenger.

It’s an impressive first-showing, for sure. I doubt they have more than 6 sail days on that brand new boat. 

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the teams were changing headsails often when out yesterday. the wind was up and down from an expected 17knts predicted by Windy earlier in the day.

I imagine that when the serious stuff starts they will be having optional mains available on the chase boats

I'm fortunate enough to have a good friend who is happy to lend his boat out to GC's "its covered in scratches so don't be afraid to add to them" is what you get told

image.thumb.png.3ba73a14595bd1728aa98a7c22ba7eb8.png

the start sequence is pretty short - they enter, go deepish, turn and run to the line. there is no real-time for a prematch battle and if you fluff a maneuver (AM did twice in one start, etnz did one is the first line up) you are guaranteed a 100m deficit off the line.

the fluffing looks like is coming from trying to be fancy - holding 2 foils in the water for extended times etc

its set up to cause the minimal chance of damage/penalties before the drag racing /Boundry bouncing begins

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26 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

the teams were changing headsails often when out yesterday. the wind was up and down from an expected 17knts predicted by Windy earlier in the day.

I imagine that when the serious stuff starts they will be having optional mains available on the chase boats

I'm fortunate enough to have a good friend who is happy to lend his boat out to GC's "its covered in scratches so don't be afraid to add to them" is what you get told

image.thumb.png.3ba73a14595bd1728aa98a7c22ba7eb8.png

the start sequence is pretty short - they enter, go deepish, turn and run to the line. there is no real-time for a prematch battle and if you fluff a maneuver (AM did twice in one start, etnz did one is the first line up) you are guaranteed a 100m deficit off the line.

the fluffing looks like is coming from trying to be fancy - holding 2 foils in the water for extended times etc

its set up to cause the minimal chance of damage/penalties before the drag racing /Boundry bouncing begins

That method of sailing with 2 foils down was quite clear even from a distance,  very slow mode but still clear of the water. It will be interesting to see more of these starts. 

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37 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

It’s an impressive first-showing, for sure. I doubt they have more than 6 sail days on that brand new boat. 

I do want ETNZ to win, just wish the playing field wasn't tilted so much.

I know that the AC is littered with playing fields tilted to the point of vertical and this is NOWHERE near that.

However, I liked the way the IACC class was put together (or at least how I recall it was put together) whereby it was a far more inclusive process.

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5 minutes ago, kenergy said:

That method of sailing with 2 foils down was quite clear even from a distance,  very slow mode but still clear of the water. It will be interesting to see more of these starts. 

they better get it sorted then, AM did it twice (double foil breaches) and ended up in heavy displacement mode with no speed on

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31 minutes ago, kenergy said:

That method of sailing with 2 foils down was quite clear even from a distance,  very slow mode but still clear of the water. It will be interesting to see more of these starts. 

Really, you saw them out of the water both foils down going straight? One report above said LR entered the box that way, then made a run out and back to the line but they didn’t say if they were foiling in that 2 arms down mode. 

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Yes, AM were practicing this before they went into the start sequence. I guess it's for low-speed maneuvers while staying up on the foils

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13 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Yes, AM were practicing this before they went into the start sequence. I guess it's for low-speed maneuvers while staying up on the foils

Cool, thanks. Iirc then someone posted that LR did it even into the box; maybe it gives them tactical choices for where to go. 
 

OT but sounds like TR was matched against AM for the practice starts; once Rita couldn’t show, TR chose to engage with LR since their partner was missing. Cool of them. 

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2 hours ago, Apterix said:

The commentary seems a bit muddled, Mark Orams says "When TNZ and Luna Rossa lined up, I thought the Italians had a slight edge upwind" and Chris Steel says that although the kiwis started on the hip of LR with LR to leeward, they were able to gauge up to weather and roll them on the upwind beat.  My bet's on the Kiwis being VMG monsters like they were in Bermuda.  

Picked up on that too. Saw a close up vid of ETNZ vs Prada start with prada starting to leeward and bow forward, looked like Prada had the best of them and squeezed ETNZ out in first couple minutes, ETNZ had a bit of a wobble on the foils. interesting JS tactic, start to leeward and sail ridiculously high but still just foiling, make it impossible for opponent to live there, the ultimate lee bow. But then Steele watched the whole beat, and apparently ETNZ did manage to survive the lee bow, advanced and when they tacked on the boundary was directly to windward, game over for prada. Its going to be a fascinating summer. 

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I think we did learnt a lot from yesterday. Prada clearly currently can't sail as deep downwind and possibly as high upwind. Too early to make judgements??? I doubt that is the conversation in the Prada shed

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6 hours ago, winchfodder said:

"While the Kiwis might have lost their contested starts, they looked to be pointing higher and sailing faster."

Looks like an uphill battle for the challengers. 

Well done ENTZ, but where does that leave the event/final? Seems like the best racing will be between the challengers, with ENTZ on another planet performance wise in the final. oh well.

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2 hours ago, Apterix said:

The commentary seems a bit muddled, Mark Orams says "When TNZ and Luna Rossa lined up, I thought the Italians had a slight edge upwind" and Chris Steel says that although the kiwis started on the hip of LR with LR to leeward, they were able to gauge up to weather and roll them on the upwind beat.  My bet's on the Kiwis being VMG monsters like they were in Bermuda.  

Who’d have thought a boat designed around and for cat and skiff sailers focusing on VMG rather than pointing.

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18 minutes ago, fish7yu said:

 

this shows the AM team doing the 2x double foil breaches in the prestart, doesn't well for them

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20 hours ago, barfy said:

^ obviously differs from reality..marine forecast is 20kt. 

I've heard a theory that the wind can accelerate over the top of the structure causing readings at Bean to be somewhat higher than actual.

330px-Bean_Rock_Lighthouse_(1871).jpg

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Ouch now that is a burn!!! :blink: (after the start 1st windward)

 

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2 hours ago, Chris UK said:

Well done ENTZ, but where does that leave the event/final? Seems like the best racing will be between the challengers, with ENTZ on another planet performance wise in the final. oh well.

Its up to the challengers to come get the cup just like we had to.

If your good enough!!!

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14 minutes ago, Wandering Geo said:

Doesn't flashing red light mean TR over early therefore win to LR (they were clearly trying to slow down)?

doesn't red flashing light mean they are protesting?

blue is a penalty against that boat

green is you are nearing a boundry

or have they changed it from last time for shits and giggles???

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Well that is a relief they did genuinely roll over them.  Who was helming LR ?

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1 hour ago, Lickindip said:

doesn't red flashing light mean they are protesting?

blue is a penalty against that boat

green is you are nearing a boundry

or have they changed it from last time for shits and giggles???

Doubt they would change it. Wonder where to find the details.

LR may have been slowing down to void penalty, although I did not see a blue light against them.

Brief flash of green (in between reds on TR). Edit, green on LR to, so must have been boundary

No doubt we will have it all figured out very soon

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1 hour ago, Wandering Geo said:

Doesn't flashing red light mean TR over early therefore win to LR (they were clearly trying to slow down)?

If its same as previously  Red light = Red Flag = protest by ETNZ . Probably for LR gybing in front of them in the start box, or infringing the imaginary box around each boat.

LR got green light just after= no penalty. Just testing all is working.

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im not sure what ETNZ would have been protesting, they were the windward boat after all unless it was for prior startbox issue

there were lights flashing on the boats all day even when not going into the start sequence so guessing its the umpires testing all the equipment

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3 hours ago, Chris UK said:

Well done ENTZ, but where does that leave the event/final? Seems like the best racing will be between the challengers, with ENTZ on another planet performance wise in the final. oh well.

Yes everyone will say it's early but from what I saw I'll look forward to the challenger series and whoever gets to the final won't win a race. It will be an ugly AC from a spectactors point of view unless Burling allows the challenger to catch up occassionally. :D

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3 hours ago, Chris UK said:

Well done ENTZ, but where does that leave the event/final? Seems like the best racing will be between the challengers, with ENTZ on another planet performance wise in the final. oh well.

That's often the case whether it is the defenders or challengers that are stronger.

 

1995 - Etnz walked over Stripey Young America.

 

2000 - Etnz demolished Prada after a nail biting LVC final.

 

2003 - Etnz might as well have not turned up.

 

2007 & 2013 were pretty close but really 2017 was back to being pretty lopsided.

 

So, let's enjoy any close racing we get whenever we get it.

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16 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Yes everyone will say it's early but from what I saw I'll look forward to the challenger series and whoever gets to the final won't win a race. It will be an ugly AC from a spectactors point of view unless Burling allows the challenger to catch up occassionally. :D

he'll probably start 10 seconds late like in bermuda to make things interesting

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15 hours ago, Lat35sowth said:

I hope they use drones in the tv coverage.

I'm sure they will, but I understand the high speeds of the boats will be difficult for the drones to match.

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Looked like AM had their small main up? That has to slow them down on a day with these conditions.

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5 minutes ago, nroose said:

Looked like AM had their small main up? That has to slow them down on a day with these conditions.

Yeah tomorrow will be interesting to see if they lift their game

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6 hours ago, jaysper said:

arguably the most successful team in cup history.

Surely that would be NYYC.  Cup history did not start when the Kiwis got involved.

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7 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Surely that would be NYYC.  Cup history did not start when the Kiwis got involved.

That's a club not a team.

But if we are talking Clubs then of course no club will ever overtake NYYC.

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1 hour ago, terrafirma said:

Yes everyone will say it's early but from what I saw I'll look forward to the challenger series and whoever gets to the final won't win a race. It will be an ugly AC from a spectactors point of view unless Burling allows the challenger to catch up occassionally. :D

Its a big call after 1 session practicing starts.  Don't know if any are on their final foils yet, all probably have new sails to roll out, and we can only be sure that the Hull Shape is at least 80% final ....

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11 minutes ago, trt131 said:

ETNZ is RNZYS's team.  Its the clubs they are racing for.

Yes, but RNZYS have been represented by the same team since day one.

NYYC have been represented by a veritable gaggle of teams, none of which have anything in common other than NYYC.

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It may the same team (or not) but not the same personnel.  A bit like grand-dad's axe.  i think you are clutching at straws.

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53 minutes ago, nroose said:

Looked like AM had their small main up? That has to slow them down on a day with these conditions.

Looked like they were at least 5 knots slower? Maybe Deano and the boys wanted to see what NZ had 1st? Early on during the AC35 NZ looked good but hadn't showed their hand and perhaps they cruised through the challenger series and kept their hand for Oracle? I already have a gut feeling the challenger series will be fun to watch and close but not the Americas Cup races. 

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i would guess we have more booms sails and foils to see come out ( if needed )

i would not rate this gathering as a first blood meet .. just a friendly sniff of backsides

 

as a side question ,, i have probably missed it in all the posts

but

whats the area of shadow / disturbed air .. and what differences is it to a normal yachts or even the ac50s  disturbed air shadow

and what effects is it likely to cause

 

to me they would be better off finding the disturbed air and seeing how well they can live in it .. or not rather than leading the pack

 

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It’ll definitely put the shits up the challengers, especially if ETNZ turns around and wins the ACWS and the Christmas race which, unless they have a breakdown (which to be fair, could happen) is highly likely. All teams will only get faster from now on with modifications and new foils etc still to be added. Roll on 6th of March! 

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45 minutes ago, trt131 said:

It may the same team (or not) but not the same personnel.  A bit like grand-dad's axe.  i think you are clutching at straws.

Based i that criteria no team is the same team over time as the personnel changes.

However they are most definitely the same team as the team roster has evolved over time rather than being a completely different team from one cup to the next.

Contrast this with the various teams that have competed on behalf of NYYC where often multiple teams duked it out for the right to defend and which team represented them was based purely on the outcome of the defender trials.

But anyway, not interested in a pissing match. Happy for you to believe whatever you do.

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1 hour ago, trt131 said:

ETNZ is RNZYS's team.  Its the clubs they are racing for.

Well, it's a bit like Boards reporting to Trustees. On paper, it's pretty clear who's in charge. In reality, not so much.

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9 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Well you certainly wouldn't use the smaller main then! 

And in reality you would increase mast rake for that

Yes, good point.

By design they have a 5° mast rake, and in early videos months ago, they often seemed to decrease the hull AoA (bow down, that is) by quite a lot, around -5°, which I thought at the time they might be doing to move the CE forward. But they have all been sailing much closer to level. I've often measured NZ attitude, and they appear to have settled at about -2°.

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2 hours ago, trt131 said:

ETNZ is RNZYS's team.  Its the clubs they are racing for.

If you want to count 1987 as the start of Team NZ RNZYS has not always been the challenger, the Mercury Bay Boating Club was the America's Cup challenger with the "big boat" in 1988 supported by Michael Faye.

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9 hours ago, RMac said:

Not sure how these 2 pt foilers are, but the mast foot pressure is absolutely huge in lots of foilers. Initially I'd really thought the helm balance through rig rake would be different from traditional craft, but if anything it's just multiplied.

Without an inner forestay, and mast bend primarily depending on very high pressures from the running backstays, I can't even start to imagine the pressure on the mast foot!

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11 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

I can't even start to imagine the pressure on the mast foot!

The mast is supported by solid structure on a mono. On a cat the mast is stepped over air, so you can't achieve the same sort of loads. Another reason why they chose wings for cats. On a mono you can get much better mast efficiency - another reason they chose soft sails. 

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3 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Without an inner forestay, and mast bend primarily depending on very high pressures from the running backstays, I can't even start to imagine the pressure on the mast foot!

Without a doubt, the runner and headstay loads must be massive. I forget which interview it's in, but someone mentioned having load cells and data points associated with tack pins, so I'm sure the teams know where they are at... But I'm not sure that would directly translate to very high mast base loads. The more bendy the mast, the less of that load would be transferred to the base, as it would be "diffused" along the length of the mast as it bends... 

If you have access to a batten or something similar carbon tube, etc.. (something reasonable in length and not brick shithouse in stiffness, 5ft/1.5m, tapered or not), you can press it against a scale, and at a certain point you'll see the batten will keep bending, but the pressure (weight on the scale) will "max out".

I doubt the teams are anywhere near that max out point, but it's more to the point that high loads transferred from the runners and head stay don't mean increasingly higher loads at the mast base.

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9 hours ago, jaysper said:

So ETNZ have appeared in EVERY cup match since 1995 with the exception of the Deed of Gift clusters, so they are a consistently top flight team and arguably the most successful team in cup history.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha 

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Just now, The_Alchemist said:

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha 

Truth hurts huh? lol

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42 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Without an inner forestay, and mast bend primarily depending on very high pressures from the running backstays, I can't even start to imagine the pressure on the mast foot!

As a starting point mainsheet loads are in excess of 20 tonnes.

Rig tension helps control bend and twist in a semi rotating mast - plenty of that in these boats.

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