Movable Ballast

Sailing Instuments - What to display where?

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Looking for some input from the KOLs 

I'm tired of telling my crew to move so I can see my bulk head mounted sailing instruments so I'm upgrading my electronics on my Schock 35.

I have the option of installing 1 or 2 NKE TL-250s, so 3 or six data points.

Should I go with 1 or 2 displays on the mast? 

What is the most important information to have on the mast mounts without it being just a blur of numbers? 

I will also have 2 NKE Multi's on P&S bulk heads...  

Mostly club racing (buoy and RL) and occasional coastal offshore (N2E etc.) race. 

Thanks.

  

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hate to say it but I'm off to get popcorn .....

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9 minutes ago, Mid said:

hate to say it but I'm off to get popcorn .....

Yeah, I understand it's a "first world problem" but some folks here actually know they're stuff.  

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2 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

some folks here actually know they're stuff.  

no argument , still gunna need pop corn :)

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1 minute ago, jackolantern said:

For the Mast:

1) Compass

2) Boatspeed

 

 

I could run up to 6 data points at the mast, I was thinking 

1) Heading

2) Boatspeed

3) AWA

If running all 6 what others would make sense on the mast?  

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4) TWS

5) Some sort of performance percentage derived from TWS, TWD, BS, heading, polars, sail database, isochrones, and your chosen deity

6) Beer cooler temperature

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16 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

If running all 6 what others would make sense on the mast?  

COG & SOG , that'll be what wins races ...

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13 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

4) TWS

5) Some sort of performance percentage derived from TWS, TWD, BS, heading, polars, sail database, isochrones, and your chosen deity

6) Beer cooler temperature

Mostly I use the mountains on the can, but BCT! That does sound like a must... 

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Heading 

Boat speed 

TWA 

TWS

Target SB

Target TWA 

 

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2 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

Looking for some input from the KOLs 

I'm tired of telling my crew to move so I can see my bulk head mounted sailing instruments so I'm upgrading my electronics on my Schock 35.

I have the option of installing 1 or 2 NKE TL-250s, so 3 or six data points.

Should I go with 1 or 2 displays on the mast? 

What is the most important information to have on the mast mounts without it being just a blur of numbers? 

I will also have 2 NKE Multi's on P&S bulk heads...  

Mostly club racing (buoy and RL) and occasional coastal offshore (N2E etc.) race. 

Thanks.

  

I'm running an NKE System on my S-40.  I have 2 NKE TL-25s on the mast.  Started with one, but when the chance came up to buy a second set for a "relatively" good price, I jumped at it.  I also have a Multi on the bulkhead to Port and an older Performance display to starboard (mounted under a Garmin 942 Plotter).  I have a second Performance at the Nav Station down below, so there is access to any of the data below. 

With the WIFI Box you can stream all the data to a phone or Straight into the laptop, but seemed prudent to move one of the Performance displays below when I got the Multi.  One great feature of the NKE Install is that you are only drilling a small hole for the display to run the cable through as opposed to a larger cut-out for something like a Plotter or other instruments I've used.

The main benefit of the mast displays is that they are line of sight for the helmsman.  And generally no one is blocking the displays.  With the remote you can easily change these to meet the drivers needs depending on conditions and upwind/downwind sailing.  Offshore at night, you are going to want more info line of sight, so you are looking at where the boat is going and the waves as opposed to into the cockpit.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

Looking for some input from the KOLs 

I'm tired of telling my crew to move so I can see my bulk head mounted sailing instruments so I'm upgrading my electronics on my Schock 35.

I have the option of installing 1 or 2 NKE TL-250s, so 3 or six data points.

Should I go with 1 or 2 displays on the mast? 

What is the most important information to have on the mast mounts without it being just a blur of numbers? 

I will also have 2 NKE Multi's on P&S bulk heads...  

Mostly club racing (buoy and RL) and occasional coastal offshore (N2E etc.) race. 

Thanks.

  

Kind of depends on who uses the numbers? 

If you have a "speed team" that are tracking the calibrated polars, then %VMG is obvious. 

If you have a naviguesser/Tacktwitchan then perhaps a TWD and Currents or water temp 

If the helmsman wants to sail the boat, perhaps target Angle of Heel, and Target wind angle for reaching legs  

 

Depth is always nice if you sail in thin water

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5 minutes ago, Ultraman said:

I'm running an NKE System on my S-40.  I have 2 NKE TL-25s on the mast.  Started with one, but when the chance came up to buy a second set for a "relatively" good price, I jumped at it.  I also have a Multi on the bulkhead to Port and an older Performance display to starboard (mounted under a Garmin 942 Plotter).  I have a second Performance at the Nav Station down below, so there is access to any of the data below. 

With the WIFI Box you can stream all the data to a phone or Straight into the laptop, but seemed prudent to move one of the Performance displays below when I got the Multi.  One great feature of the NKE Install is that you are only drilling a small hole for the display to run the cable through as opposed to a larger cut-out for something like a Plotter or other instruments I've used.

The main benefit of the mast displays is that they are line of sight for the helmsman.  And generally no one is blocking the displays.  With the remote you can easily change these to meet the drivers needs depending on conditions and upwind/downwind sailing.  Offshore at night, you are going to want more info line of sight, so you are looking at where the boat is going and the waves as opposed to into the cockpit.

 

 

What data so you typically have up on the mast displays? 

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11 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

What data so you typically have up on the mast displays? 

Boat speed 

Heading 

Depth

TWS

AWA/TWA

SOG/COG/Targets/Bus Voltage if you wanted...

Depends on the conditions and sailing.  So easy to change with the remote which is mounted Bulkhead, but is going to get remounted on the Binnacle, so it can be controlled by the driver.  With 3 you are probably leaving needed info out of line of sight.  6 has everything you need plus some extra.

You could always turn it all off, use the tell tales and windex, but that's not really of point installing a set of top level instruments like NKEs.

Edit: I'll go check what is on there this afternoon and report back.

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2 minutes ago, Ultraman said:

Boat speed 

Heading 

Depth

TWS

AWA/TWA

SOG/COG/Targets/Bus Voltage if you wanted...

Depends on the conditions and sailing.  So easy to change with the remote which is mounted Bulkhead, but is going to get remounted on the Binnacle, so it can be controlled by the driver.  With 3 you are probably leaving needed info out of line of sight.  6 has everything you need plus some extra.

You could always turn it all off, use the tell tales and windex, but that's not really of point installing a set of top level instruments like NKEs.

Thanks, this is the type of information I'm looking for. 

I always "drive the cloth" upwind and do use the telltales and windex to "check" my current instruments, they often don't agree... My real challenge is downwind speed/angle consistency some days I'm on it some not...   

I sort of stumbled into the NKE setup as I speak NMEA 0183 pretty well. I like the Idea of using the performance module mounted at the nav station. 

 

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There are some lucky sailors through natural selection who have special adaptations which made some wind instrumentation redundant. Moreover few when it occurs suffer any rating hits in some local PHRF ratings do to this development and unavoidable increased sail plans.

 

 

36A86ADD-11F0-42CA-B173-C09B67764C58.png

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For club racing, I’d say heading and boat speed on the mast. True wind speed and apparent angle displayed together on each of the bulkhead mounted displays. Depth, depending on course. 

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Boat speed and apparent wind angle. That is all that needs to be visible to the helmsman and crew.

Heading if there is room although presumably you have a compass.

All other readouts (TWD, TWA, COG, SOG, current set and drift, depth) are only important to the tactician. The rest of the monkeys don't need to know and will just get confused.

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5 hours ago, Mid said:

hate to say it but I'm off to get popcorn .....

I'll have real butter on mine please, and some Old Bay? thanks!

 

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5 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

Yeah, I understand it's a "first world problem" but some folks here actually know they're stuff.  

Who??

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27 minutes ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

I'll have real butter on mine please, and some Old Bay? thanks!

 

Old bay is awesome on popcorn.

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1 minute ago, ROADKILL666 said:

Old bay is awesome on popcorn.

if I'm feeling particularly decadent. I'll mix it with grated pecorino cheese ;)

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Just now, Bump-n-Grind said:

if I'm feeling particularly decadent. I'll mix it with grated pecorino cheese ;)

Dam that sounds good

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try it on jiffy pop!

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In the Caribbean of course, the tacticator just smokes a big trumpet.  Only way he can tell the color of the windshifts.

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3 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

Thanks, this is the type of information I'm looking for. 

I always "drive the cloth" upwind and do use the telltales and windex to "check" my current instruments, they often don't agree... My real challenge is downwind speed/angle consistency some days I'm on it some not...   

I sort of stumbled into the NKE setup as I speak NMEA 0183 pretty well. I like the Idea of using the performance module mounted at the nav station. 

 

This is what I had up last time we were sailing round the cans (freighters) Oct 26 before we got shut down again.  Plus AWA and Depth on the little Performance display starboard bulkhead that you can barely see.  AWA is helpful up here in the light stuff/drifting when you are trying to keep the boat going.  3Dis don't like 0-5kts and pinching...

IMG_20201211_1532453.jpg

IMG_20201211_1532546.jpg

IMG_20201211_1531566.jpg

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Offshore,  particularly coastal with current,  COG is a race winner.  Course only tells you where you are pointing not where you are going.  On long legs with the wind free steering to COG can save miles the difference can be 10 degrees or more.

SOG is also important but you still need speed for trimming to.

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Lots of good advice here, but since the popcorn is out, I'll add to the show.

Depends. Things to consider, how do you sail the boat, and what's important to you, and what can the system do for you? If it can generate true wind numbers, are you going to actively (it's a lot of work) keep the system calibrated? If not, don't bother with the true wind numbers. 

Most would agree, almost always, the number one data point for everyone to see is boatspeed (as in STW, not SOG), and you'll frequently see it on the top display. What next? An advantage to having numbers on the mast (in addition to what you mentioned in your opening post) is that the driver can see them without taking his eyes off the headsail / bow. If you sail to polars you'll want %TBS (efficiency) if your system can do it, or TBS if not. Something like a Garmin GNX 120 display can put those on the same display as boatspeed, so they are logically grouped together. 

Many people like to use AWA upwind and TWA downwind. Some systems can change it for you automagically, so put that up there. If not, put those both up there. Driver and sail trimmers will appreciate that. 

Finally, I like to have heading so someone or everyone can track the shifts upwind.

Some systems can calculate heading for next tack or gybe. Do you have a dedicated tactician? If so that need not be on the mast but if not it might be handy on the mast. Again, this all depends upon how you sail the boat.

You said you can have up to six data points, but consider if you need all six. Lots of numbers can be confusing and often, less is more. Also, once you find something that works, stick with it so everyone can get used to it. 

FInally, this is handy:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1119942373/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

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16 hours ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

if I'm feeling particularly decadent. I'll mix it with grated pecorino cheese ;)

Just fry some pancetta (Italian pork belly) and toss that in with your butter and grated pecorino and you'll have popcorn ala carbonara!

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6 hours ago, TUBBY said:

Offshore,  particularly coastal with current,  COG is a race winner.  Course only tells you where you are pointing not where you are going.  On long legs with the wind free steering to COG can save miles the difference can be 10 degrees or more.

SOG is also important but you still need speed for trimming to.

Trimmers and helm cannot do anything about COG or SOG so they don't need this data. It is just a distraction. The only thing trimmers and helm can affect are boat speed, apparent wind angle, heel and heading so these are the only ones that need to be on the mast. Angle of heel is vital for the helmsman, but he shouldn't need an instrument for this.

COG & SOG (and their cousins current set and drift), TWD (only reliable if the instruments are very well calibrated), water temperature and depth etc. are only of interest to the tactician/navigator. % of target is meaningless unless the program is grand prix enough to have an instrument calibration guy in which case you wouldn't be asking this question on SA.

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I agree with that we run a 5 min average polar boat speed. This helps offshore make sure we are staying at potential. But as is stated above this takes a lot of effort to get right. I think for Transpac last year I had 8 displays and then an Tablet with 10 more that were more performances and tactical based. 
 

we would log every driver and talking with each watch what was working and how to get more speed out of the boat. 

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So this is what I ended up for the buoy racing setup.

On the mast in descending order.

Heading

Boat speed

True Wind Speed

True Wind Angle

Heel Angle

Pitch Angle

These are all parameter the crew can effect and important info for the downwind team. 

On the port bulk head

True Wind Direction

Apparent Wind Angle

Heading

On the Stbd bulk head

Boat Speed

VMG

CMG

These are more tactical and I like to drive upwind to apparent over true.  

 

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you don't have targets?  Target True wind angel and target boat speed?   

if its a random leg reaching course we toggle to polar boat speed rather than target boat speed.   

we played around with pitch its useful when you are learning the boat.  after a bit you just know this.  

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1 hour ago, IMR said:

you don't have targets?  Target True wind angel and target boat speed?   

if its a random leg reaching course we toggle to polar boat speed rather than target boat speed.   

we played around with pitch its useful when you are learning the boat.  after a bit you just know this.  

I don't have the HR performance module to download polars to. I'm going to work on getting the system to read the files from a PC. 

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On 12/11/2020 at 4:51 PM, Ultraman said:

This is what I had up last time we were sailing round the cans (freighters) Oct 26 before we got shut down again.  Plus AWA and Depth on the little Performance display starboard bulkhead that you can barely see.  AWA is helpful up here in the light stuff/drifting when you are trying to keep the boat going.  3Dis don't like 0-5kts and pinching...

IMG_20201211_1532453.jpg

IMG_20201211_1532546.jpg

IMG_20201211_1531566.jpg

Interesting to have the puck mounted to the bulkhead. I left the wire long and keep it in the nav cabinet. 

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48 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

Interesting to have the puck mounted to the bulkhead. I left the wire long and keep it in the nav cabinet. 

I used to have the puck under the Nav table (forward, starboard by the mast) on a long wire coiled up, but it was a pain to get it up to the companionway quickly and new crew would have no idea what I was talking about...  This is as far as the cable I had would reach at the time and I moved a NKE Performance display (with a cracked case potentially not waterproof) from this spot down to the Nav station.  So, the small hole was already there. 

I will likely move the puck to the small binnacle on the helm, as I ended up buying a new mast head cable to fix the connector and now have enough extra NKE wire to do the run.  Would allow the driver to pick what numbers are on the mast.

This set up at least allows the mast displays to be easily changed by one of the crew and you can use the MOB function (although I think that technically this is supposed to be next to or within reach of the helm).  To meet this MOB Button safety requirement for Transpac, the PO ran a long power cable for a Garmin 76/78 HH GPS and mounted it next to the helm.

This is the second instrument install on the boat and the grey panel around the NKE Multigraphic is to cover the large hole where the Raymarine ST60s were previously mounted.  Long may they rest in peace...

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On 12/11/2020 at 12:44 PM, Movable Ballast said:

Looking for some input from the KOLs 

I'm tired of telling my crew to move so I can see my bulk head mounted sailing instruments so I'm upgrading my electronics on my Schock 35.

I have the option of installing 1 or 2 NKE TL-250s, so 3 or six data points.

Should I go with 1 or 2 displays on the mast? 

What is the most important information to have on the mast mounts without it being just a blur of numbers? 

I will also have 2 NKE Multi's on P&S bulk heads...  

Mostly club racing (buoy and RL) and occasional coastal offshore (N2E etc.) race. 

Thanks.

  

Don't waste your money on electronics!

A Windex and speedo, don't even bother calibrating it, just use as reference. 

This is what worked for 25 years on Hustler 

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On 12/11/2020 at 1:38 PM, Black Jack said:

There are some lucky sailors through natural selection who have special adaptations which made some wind instrumentation redundant. Moreover few when it occurs suffer any rating hits in some local PHRF ratings do to this development and unavoidable increased sail plans.

 

 

36A86ADD-11F0-42CA-B173-C09B67764C58.png

JFC, is that ear hair???

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1 hour ago, jesposito said:

Don't waste your money on electronics!

A Windex and speedo, don't even bother calibrating it, just use as reference. 

This is what worked for 25 years on Hustler 

Heck, don't even waste your money on these new fangled boats with foils that let them go upwind. Following the trades worked for centuries. 

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1 hour ago, jesposito said:

Don't waste your money on electronics!

A Windex and speedo, don't even bother calibrating it, just use as reference. 

This is what worked for 25 years on Hustler 

I would agree. Most important is a sailcomp for time before the start and heading. Otherwise keep your head outside the boat.  

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From most important to the least:

- Heading

- Boat speed

- AWA

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Does TWS/TWA have any real value?  AWS/AWA seem more meaningful when trimming the sails.  What am I missing?

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6 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Does TWS/TWA have any real value?  AWS/AWA seem more meaningful when trimming the sails.  What am I missing?

On the mast I definitely agree as trimmers / the helm can't do much with it except may be downwind in survival conditions especially at night when the sea is rough and apparent wind can go all over the place with speed changes (For these guys who show off at the bar by nonchalantly declaring "we just hanged to the kite all night in 30+" :rolleyes:). Nevertheless it can be very useful to the tactician/navigator to decide sail choices and layline but the tactician doesn't need it at the mast. Trouble with TWA is that it is very hard to calibrate and on most boats, you are better off doing it the old way (compass, knowing your tack/gybe angles +  watching the evolution of the AWA).

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7 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Does TWS/TWA have any real value?  AWS/AWA seem more meaningful when trimming the sails.  What am I missing?

telltales  and windex 

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On 1/7/2021 at 9:52 AM, Movable Ballast said:

I don't have the HR performance module to download polars to. I'm going to work on getting the system to read the files from a PC. 

If you can afford it get the NKE wifi unit, it gives you bi-directional NMEA to Topline conversion, and gives you both wireless and wired outputs. 

This took the polar and VMG data as NMEA from the PC (wired) for the multigraphics, and in reverse the NKE data for wind and water sensors is sent to the PC as NMEA.

The wireless is standard wi-fi and also bi-directional NME for any tablets and mobile devices. I only used the wireless as an output.

Works a treat and is rock solid. 

The other nice to have NKE toy is the wireless autohelm pendant. Loved it to bits, and its a MOB transmitter as a bonus. 

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10 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

telltales  and windex 

Wouldn't those indicate "apparent" wind?  Windex is not true wind.  Right?

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9 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

Wouldn't those indicate "apparent" wind?  Windex is not true wind.  Right?

Correct. Many people take the attitude that they are not going to make the (considerable) effort to keep their instruments sufficiently calibrated for correct true wind solutions, so they use apparent wind. And in that case, windex and telltales often meet the need. It's sure a lot cheaper.

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2 hours ago, George Dewey said:

Correct. Many people take the attitude that they are not going to make the (considerable) effort to keep their instruments sufficiently calibrated for correct true wind solutions, so they use apparent wind. And in that case, windex and telltales often meet the need. It's sure a lot cheaper.

Telltales tell you lot including stuff that the instruments don't measure such as wind shear and sail wind incidence.

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4 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Wouldn't those indicate "apparent" wind?  Windex is not true wind.  Right?

right , apparent wind is what's driving the boat not true wind, ie AC boats that foil, generate higher app wind so they sail faster, in 10kts true wind they do 50knots 

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10 minutes ago, Not for nothing said:

right , apparent wind is what's driving the boat not true wind, ie AC boats that foil, generate higher app wind so they sail faster, in 10kts true wind they do 50knots 

Same thing with windsurfing.  As we gain speed, we sheet in more and more until you are sheeted all the way in even if you are going dead downwind.

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On 1/8/2021 at 9:05 PM, MauiPunter said:

Same thing with windsurfing.  As we gain speed, we sheet in more and more until you are sheeted all the way in even if you are going dead downwind.

very true for any fast going wind driven objects - be it windusrfers, sportboats, multihulls, you name it - the lesson to be learned is >> you trim for the apparent wind!

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On 1/6/2021 at 6:55 PM, Movable Ballast said:

Interesting to have the puck mounted to the bulkhead. I left the wire long and keep it in the nav cabinet. 

Treat that puck with love as it's no longer available. It's been replaced with the PAD controller which is way more user intuitive and allows you to set page shortcuts for displays. The downside is it's much bigger and would need to be mounted on the surface. 

Also something should be said since there is lots of NKE users here, Apparent wind speed and direction is what the MHU is reading for data, it's not based on a calculation like B&G. Then based on the other sensor data of boat speed and heading it calculated true wind angle, direction and speed. 

Lastly regarding computer bases programs, I personally like Expedition the best. Nick's service is hands down the best. He has helped me out many times and once there wasn't an immediate solution he was able to create one and offer an update for Expedition in short time. Just remember to check the boxes in which channels are being exported out of Expedition back to the sailing instruments. 

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On 1/7/2021 at 8:56 PM, MauiPunter said:

Does TWS/TWA have any real value?  AWS/AWA seem more meaningful when trimming the sails.  What am I missing?

 

you are sailing at AWA 38  (on port) and AWS of 21 at a heading of 230M

in a few minutes you will round a mark, and your heading to the next mark is 260M

What sail do you plug in?

even if you have a AWA/AWS sail chart - you won't easily know what your AWA and AWS will be on that next leg -both depend on your boat speed.., which depends on AWA/AWS...  Expedition can calculate it from your polars.., but it's not trivial - you can't do it in your head.

If I have TWD and TWS, and the heading of the next leg, it's easy to know what the next leg TWA/TWS will be - i can do it in my head in a second - and using my TWA/TWS sail chart, I can make sure the right sail is plugged in.

This saves me from looking like an idiot - calling for a sail change 30 seconds after we round the mark...

there is also the question of evaluating whether or not we even want to sail the rhumb line on the next leg - maybe if I sail a bit lower I can be in a much faster sail - but how much lower? again - I want to evaluate this before we get to the mark - it's trivial to know how many degrees lower I need to go to use that sail if I have TWA/TWS and a TWA/TWS sail chart. If everything is AWA/AWS it's hard to impossible.

 

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On 12/11/2020 at 1:44 PM, Movable Ballast said:

Looking for some input from the KOLs 

I'm tired of telling my crew to move so I can see my bulk head mounted sailing instruments so I'm upgrading my electronics on my Schock 35.

I have the option of installing 1 or 2 NKE TL-250s, so 3 or six data points.

Should I go with 1 or 2 displays on the mast? 

What is the most important information to have on the mast mounts without it being just a blur of numbers? 

I will also have 2 NKE Multi's on P&S bulk heads...  

Mostly club racing (buoy and RL) and occasional coastal offshore (N2E etc.) race. 

Thanks.

  

The helmsman should be able to see the headstay and instruments at the same time 

trimmers should be able to see the sail and instruments at the same time 

The helmsman needs wind and compass 

the trimmers need  wind and speed 

if possible , at least three mast mounted instruments is  the way to go

 over the companionway instruments can work,  but it’s a compromise 

 

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On 12/11/2020 at 4:51 PM, Ultraman said:

This is what I had up last time we were sailing round the cans (freighters) Oct 26 before we got shut down again.  Plus AWA and Depth on the little Performance display starboard bulkhead that you can barely see.  AWA is helpful up here in the light stuff/drifting when you are trying to keep the boat going.  3Dis don't like 0-5kts and pinching...

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IMG_20201211_1531566.jpg

Someone is laying down on the job? ;) 

Kind of an argument for google glasses?  Apple Watch?

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2 hours ago, us7070 said:

 

you are sailing at AWA 38  (on port) and AWS of 21 at a heading of 230M

in a few minutes you will round a mark, and your heading to the next mark is 260M

What sail do you plug in?

even if you have a AWA/AWS sail chart - you won't easily know what your AWA and AWS will be on that next leg -both depend on your boat speed.., which depends on AWA/AWS...  Expedition can calculate it from your polars.., but it's not trivial - you can't do it in your head.

If I have TWD and TWS, and the heading of the next leg, it's easy to know what the next leg TWA/TWS will be - i can do it in my head in a second - and using my TWA/TWS sail chart, I can make sure the right sail is plugged in.

This saves me from looking like an idiot - calling for a sail change 30 seconds after we round the mark...

there is also the question of evaluating whether or not we even want to sail the rhumb line on the next leg - maybe if I sail a bit lower I can be in a much faster sail - but how much lower? again - I want to evaluate this before we get to the mark - it's trivial to know how many degrees lower I need to go to use that sail if I have TWA/TWS and a TWA/TWS sail chart. If everything is AWA/AWS it's hard to impossible.

 

Very true but only the navigator needs to know this. IMO, it is better if the helm and the trimmer concentrate on speed and where they are going.

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On 1/8/2021 at 4:05 PM, MauiPunter said:

Same thing with windsurfing.  As we gain speed, we sheet in more and more until you are sheeted all the way in even if you are going dead downwind.

Our Windex points straight ahead when we are going upwind.

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8 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Very true but only the navigator needs to know this. IMO, it is better if the helm and the trimmer concentrate on speed and where they are going.

Feel of the boat.  Flow (sound?) off the transom?

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On 1/7/2021 at 9:42 AM, jesposito said:

Don't waste your money on electronics!

A Windex and speedo, don't even bother calibrating it, just use as reference. 

This is what worked for 25 years on Hustler 

Hand held gps can be useful, but that makes it hard (as in the temptation to stare incessantly at your hand)  to keep your head out of the boat.

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18 minutes ago, Amati said:

Feel of the boat.  Flow (sound?) off the transom?

+ tension in the spinnaker sheet, that wins races as many fail to bother about it!

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On 12/11/2020 at 6:33 PM, ROADKILL666 said:
On 12/11/2020 at 6:32 PM, Bump-n-Grind said:

if I'm feeling particularly decadent. I'll mix it with grated pecorino cheese ;)

Dam that sounds good

For damn sure sounds decadent!

What kind of rum goes with popcorn?

I'm surprised nobody uses VMG. I sail in a shallow area so depth is critical info at all times

FB- Doug

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Data points I really like to have available from instruments at all times are:

  • Boatspeed - to see the effect of trimming
  • SOG - to see the effect of current (compare to Boatspeed)
  • Depth - to not crash into anything underwater

At night or offshore I also like to have:

  • Heading - to steer the boat without the benefit of a fixed land-based visual reference

These are also nice to have, but can also be gathered without instruments, often more reliably:

  • AWA - read this from the windex and sails
  • AWS - infer this from the boat's performance/heel
  • TWS/TWA - read this from the sea state, as it's difficult to calculate accurately with instruments, especially with a rotating mast

As Doug noted VMG is also really helpful, but mostly of interest to the navigator/tactician

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On 1/8/2021 at 2:10 AM, shaggybaxter said:

If you can afford it get the NKE wifi unit, it gives you bi-directional NMEA to Topline conversion, and gives you both wireless and wired outputs. 

This took the polar and VMG data as NMEA from the PC (wired) for the multigraphics, and in reverse the NKE data for wind and water sensors is sent to the PC as NMEA.

The wireless is standard wi-fi and also bi-directional NME for any tablets and mobile devices. I only used the wireless as an output.

Works a treat and is rock solid. 

The other nice to have NKE toy is the wireless autohelm pendant. Loved it to bits, and its a MOB transmitter as a bonus. 

I do have a two way Tx/Rx to topline box for RS-232 communication. I'd be super interested on how you interfaced the polar tables! 

I can create the correct table format but are unsure which NMEA-0183 sentences to use to access the tables. 

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All of these guys saying you only need a windex and telltales...

When your VMG run angles change 50° from 12-14kts of breeze and your boat speed doubles when you sail the correct angle TWS and BS are critical pieces of info. Come up 50° a bit too early and the fleet sails past or stay down a bit too long and the fleet sails past.

Not to mention the fiascos that result from guessing which sail to hoist after a mark rounding on anything but a W/L course.

Even on my 5ktsb the VMG run angle changes 30° between 10-14kts and VMG can differ by 0.5kts. Really hard to tell 0.5kts of boatspeed difference looking at the transom or SOG when there's 3kts of current to make a call.

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1 minute ago, climenuts said:

All of these guys saying you only need a windex and telltales...

When your VMG run angles change 50° from 12-14kts of breeze and your boat speed doubles when you sail the correct angle TWS and BS are critical pieces of info. Come up 50° a bit too early and the fleet sails past or stay down a bit too long and the fleet sails past.

Not to mention the fiascos that result from guessing which sail to hoist after a mark rounding on anything but a W/L course.

Even on my 5ktsb the VMG run angle changes 30° between 10-14kts and VMG can differ by 0.5kts. Really hard to tell 0.5kts of boatspeed difference looking at the transom or SOG when there's 3kts of current to make a call.

Tactical decisions are called by the tactician

This Tactical data input can be retrieved from the tacticians pocket 

For fixed on deck instruments it’s best to concentrate on sailing instruments ... for trimmers and helmsman 

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15 minutes ago, climenuts said:

All of these guys saying you only need a windex and telltales...

There is a reason why Desjoyeaux developed electronic telltales... There is nothing wrong with tell tales and they tell you a lot, so much that Desjoyeaux decided that on big boats  you (or the autopilot) can't do without them at night and invented electronic ones. Compass + tell tales will tell you an awful lot and good racers can be nearly as good without the electronics.

http://greatcirclesails.blogspot.com/2018/11/a-brilliant-innovation-electronic.html

Now they are even using them on Wind turbines as they've found that it is more efficient to adjust the blade pitch...

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Nobody is saying not to have telltales or to always rely on other instruments. Telltales and a Windex are critical.

All I'm saying is that when you're going downhill it can be extremely difficult to tell when the wind goes from 11 to 12 kts and your boat is now capable of planing. 30 seconds of your competition making 3kts more than you towards the mark is game over. Not all of us have Brad Butterworth standing there for a W/L race doing nothing but staring at an iPad.

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10 hours ago, climenuts said:

All I'm saying is that when you're going downhill it can be extremely difficult to tell when the wind goes from 11 to 12 kts and your boat is now capable of planing

Get the trimmer to report helm tension in the spinnaker sheet...

My point was only that you don't want to overwhelm the helm and the trimmers with too much data thus if you use big displays like the OP just get the important stuff there and leave the tactician look at the small bulkhead displays for stuff like TWS and TWD.

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On 12/11/2020 at 9:44 AM, Movable Ballast said:

taking into account your racing program, which seems to be fully crewed, you should really have the TL25s on the mast (both of them). You can always change the data showing after the start, going upwind or downwind using the wired remote. You have to keep in mind that the TL25s are about 20 years old technology. They still work great but they do have limitations and obviously can't compare with newer (yes, I know more expensive) displays. On a Schock 35, they should be perfectly visible from the helm - I have installed many on bigger boats. The size of the digits is 25mm (1"). Not sure if that has been covered but the old TL25 do NOT display magnetic. Although the data is available on the bus it won't show on the display. If you want to know why and how, call me at Sailutions. When did you buy the multigraphic displays? A new version just came out and you can benefit from the firmware upgrade. This being said, I have been selling and installing the new multifunction displays for over a year now so I am suprised you have these 2 displays instead. I am located in Los Angeles.

 

 

On 12/11/2020 at 9:44 AM, Movable Ballast said:

  

 

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On 1/12/2021 at 5:44 AM, RImike said:

Treat that puck with love as it's no longer available. It's been replaced with the PAD controller which is way more user intuitive and allows you to set page shortcuts for displays. The downside is it's much bigger and would need to be mounted on the surface. 

Movealbe Ballast, I have plenty of wired remotes in stock if yours were to fail. I can also repair it is fixable (I would need a couple of days turnout). 

On 1/12/2021 at 5:44 AM, RImike said:

 

 

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