AClass USA 230

Re: “the wind started to build” sub-article on 12/20 FP

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The opening line here is another blast at the current resident of the White House that he will block this while implying what a wonderful thing to develop wind farms in the Gulf of Mexico off the coasts of Texas and Louisiana. Well I hope the President does stop this project (Biden certainly won’t).

The dirty fact is these wind farms will be placed in the path of the primary migratory bird routes between North America and South America. And another dirty fact is that there will be no evidence of the carnage because the birds those spinning turbines kill fall into the Gulf and disappear.

My wife is a passionate birder. She spends a lot time in southwest Louisiana which is an amazing place to see when the birds are going south or coming back north (the natural wetland system in all of south Louisiana is huge factor in maintaining the migratory bird populations). As if the loss of the wetlands is bad enough (and it’s not because of climate change, it’s because the Mississippi River is not allowed to naturally flood the delta and replenish the sediment of the wetlands), placing bird killing machines in the Gulf just adds on. She is very angry about the move to develop wind farms in the Gulf and I know the Louisiana Ornithological Society, Audubon Society (and hopefully others like the Sierra Club, Wildlife Conservancy, etc.) are mobilizing to fight the wildlife devastation a project like this will cause.

As much as the press wants to demonize the oil and gas industry, the public should recognize that most renewable energy strategies still have significant costs and impacts that profit motivated interests don’t want you to know about. 

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One thing you can do, is go to some of the existing big wind farms on land.

I've done so (for other purposes than birding) and of the dozen+ I've visited not one single dead bird was seen. The big slow-spinning blades seem to warn them away.

FWIW it would be nice to not put them in the migratory pathway, agreed. Birds are already under a hell of a lot of stress and are in decline.

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

One thing you can do, is go to some of the existing big wind farms on land.

I've done so (for other purposes than birding) and of the dozen+ I've visited not one single dead bird was seen. The big slow-spinning blades seem to warn them away.

FWIW it would be nice to not put them in the migratory pathway, agreed. Birds are already under a hell of a lot of stress and are in decline.

FB- Doug

The tip speeds at average wind speeds are around 120 mph, at max turbine speed, the tip speeds are around 180 mph. They are killing machines to any wildlife that gets near them. They are a significant threat to avian wildlife when the turbines are put in sensitive areas. The entire Gulf of Mexico is a primary migratory route and there is really no way to measure the impact other than seeing if the species decline after the offshore wind farms are in place. You can’t do a dead bird count because there will be no dead birds to count.

In the western civilized world, I’d much rather see us developing nuclear energy to make it safer (it’s already proven to be reliable) than having wind turbine farms become more prevalent. 

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7 minutes ago, AClass USA 230 said:

The tip speeds at average wind speeds are around 120 mph, at max turbine speed, the tip speeds are around 180 mph. They are killing machines to any wildlife that gets near them. They are a significant threat to avian wildlife when the turbines are put in sensitive areas. The entire Gulf of Mexico is a primary migratory route and there is really no way to measure the impact other than seeing if the species decline after the offshore wind farms are in place. You can’t do a dead bird count because there will be no dead birds to count.

In the western civilized world, I’d much rather see us developing nuclear energy to make it safer (it’s already proven to be reliable) than having wind turbine farms become more prevalent. 

All I said is: go look.

I am not saying that wind turbines kill ZERO birds but the ones I've seen (probably around a hundred+, all in places near waterways and wilderness areas) don't kill enough to see any. Suburban cats OTOH take a very high toll of bird life, migratory and otherwise.

The impact of putting the wind turbines a migratory area is sure to be more than in other less-intensive places, even if it's only because the birds then have to expend the precious calories to avoid them. But it could well be more than that.

A comprehensive national energy program should intelligently look at a wide range of options

FB- Doug

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Let’s not forget to get rid of cars and guns too. 
Both kill inordinate amounts of wildlife yearly 

We have been through the nuclear thing already and it is a 1,000 year disposal issue along with the threat of radiation harming or killing people and wildlife. 

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2 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Let’s not forget to get rid of cars and guns too. 
Both kill inordinate amounts of wildlife yearly 

We have been through the nuclear thing already and it is a 1,000 year disposal issue along with the threat of radiation harming or killing people and wildlife. 

More like 18,000 years... half-life. Proven to be reliable in Russia and Japan. 

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3 hours ago, AClass USA 230 said:

The tip speeds at average wind speeds are around 120 mph, at max turbine speed, the tip speeds are around 180 mph. They are killing machines to any wildlife that gets near them. They are a significant threat to avian wildlife when the turbines are put in sensitive areas. The entire Gulf of Mexico is a primary migratory route and there is really no way to measure the impact other than seeing if the species decline after the offshore wind farms are in place. You can’t do a dead bird count because there will be no dead birds to count.

In the western civilized world, I’d much rather see us developing nuclear energy to make it safer (it’s already proven to be reliable) than having wind turbine farms become more prevalent. 

 

2 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Let’s not forget to get rid of cars and guns too. 
Both kill inordinate amounts of wildlife yearly 

We have been through the nuclear thing already and it is a 1,000 year disposal issue along with the threat of radiation harming or killing people and wildlife. 

We have newer nuclear power plant designs that actually uses nuclear waste for fuel. A win win. Render the ole nuclear waste and create energy.

Better yet, let's just stop the over population.

Better yet, kill all humans

homer-doh.gif.e4d6b629fcef5618178e751ba9bc5dbf.gif

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What’s the usual altitude of migratory birds over ocean? I was under the impression they routinely flew to over several km over water. 

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It's worse than you think

39016658-2390-42C1-BEB7-442B90B85089.jpeg

Brazenly stolen from another thread, thanks

DO NOT let your kids see this!!

FB- Doug

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5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

All I said is: go look.

I am not saying that wind turbines kill ZERO birds but the ones I've seen (probably around a hundred+, all in places near waterways and wilderness areas) don't kill enough to see any. Suburban cats OTOH take a very high toll of bird life, migratory and otherwise.

The impact of putting the wind turbines a migratory area is sure to be more than in other less-intensive places, even if it's only because the birds then have to expend the precious calories to avoid them. But it could well be more than that.

A comprehensive national energy program should intelligently look at a wide range of options

FB- Doug

I’m not anti wind mill in any way, but the last time I went to go visit a few, the ground was littered with dead Canada Geese. 
 

Sorry, I don’t have a cite, but I recently read an article that said painting one blade black almost completely eliminated the bird kill. 

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2 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I’m not anti wind mill in any way, but the last time I went to go visit a few, the ground was littered with dead Canada Geese. 
 

Sorry, I don’t have a cite, but I recently read an article that said painting one blade black almost completely eliminated the bird kill. 

Dueling anecdotes  ;)

It would be interesting to try the black paint. Maybe reflectors? A web cam at the base of a few would be a worth while investment.

FB- Doug

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

Dueling anecdotes  ;)

It would be interesting to try the black paint. Maybe reflectors? A web cam at the base of a few would be a worth while investment.

FB- Doug

Just to be fully clear, these windmills were dead smack in their migratory pattern. That’s why I was there. I was there to goose hunt. My friend owned the farm that had five giant windmills on it. It is what it is. Call it a hunch, but I’d bet most birds suffer less from windmills than typical environmental damage. I was only commenting to say that I’ve seen first hand that they do in fact mow down birds. 

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To be clear, I am not trying to use my experience as anecdotal evidence that windmills are evil. 
 

Edit:  however, some real idiots had to think it was a good idea to park a monster wind farm right in a migratory pattern. You’d laugh if you saw it on a map. It’s almost like population control was the game. 

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25 minutes ago, Monkey said:

To be clear, I am not trying to use my experience as anecdotal evidence that windmills are evil. 
 

Edit:  however, some real idiots had to think it was a good idea to park a monster wind farm right in a migratory pattern. You’d laugh if you saw it on a map. It’s almost like population control was the game. 

Those damn geese are a PITA!

^ kidding ^

I wouldn't point to my experience as proof that wind turbines NEVER kill birds, just that it's less of a problem some claim... I agree it's a bad idea to put them in a migration flyway, just like there are poor places to put other kinds of power plants. Fish ladders in dams, etc etc.

Man's dominion over nature is not a blank check to fuck the planet up so badly that nothing can live here!

FB- Doug

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The article below is from a bird watcher, not a lobbying group for windturbines. The data is old, true. 2003.

There are obviously many more wind turbines in the US today than 17 years ago. Let's assume, that there are 100 TIMES MORE wind turbines now. Wild assumption, I know; maybe someone can pull the actual number on the growth of wind turbines in the US.  And let's make the crude assumption that they kill proportionately 100 times more than in 2003.

Windmills would still kill 100 TIMES LESS than feral cats!!! And potentially 200 times less than windows!!!

Hey, Don Quixote, I think you are fighting the wrong windmill...

https://www.sibleyguides.com/conservation/causes-of-bird-mortality/

image.png.30e023c521ac23d39f3b31a41b7f30b9.png

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There is no way in hell that Trump would use the environment as a reason to support even one single policy he wanted to shove down the citizens' throat.

The only reason he is against wind-generated electricity is because his "contributors" in the oil industry are paying him to be against wind energy. I would bet they told him what arguments to use against wind energy.

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When the alternative is this, I'm not too worried. convent-refinery-louisiana-source-shell.

 

Do you think that these profit motivated interests spreading fears about wind turbines might be the same companies that for decades funded anti-climate change denialism?

14 hours ago, AClass USA 230 said:

profit motivated interests don’t want you to know about.

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You know there are people who have been actually researching this stuff and that research has been turned into actual policy. The data is out there. I’m currently building a wind farm and I can tell you we study the crap out of all of this.

By law, we hire independent third parties to do studies that are submitted to the relevant AHJ’s, reviewed by their scientists, and $100’s of millions farms are approved, modified, or rejected based on these studies. 

It’s not perfect - some small number birds and bats will be killed. We pay to mitigate this in a number of different ways.  There are even “take permits” for raptors, and biologists visit the site to check for dead birds. 
 

I don’t know how this will work for offshore - haven’t done it yet. But you’d better believe their feet are being held to the fire. If you’re passionate about birds, study up on this stuff under actual scientists doing real research, and look realistically at the alternatives. We are trying to do it right, and better than what's powering our grid now. 
 

And give me a break on nuclear. Or spend 20 years of your life trying to get a permit for a nuke plant in your home state before telling me that it’s the future. It’s not in a democracy, regardless of the science unfortunately. 

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The bird claim is a red herring.  Anti-wind and anti-solar people are like anti-vaxxers.  

The time is coming soon to hold people accountable for repeating propaganda, without applying objective reasoning, because it backs up a theory or cause they like.

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"Won't somebody please think of the children!" And not to worry, worrywart, Trunt is too busy stealing money and trying to pull off the most ridiculous and guaranteed to fail "coup".  I believe you need to find something more important to bitch about.

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20 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 (...) just like there are poor places to put other kinds of power plants. Fish ladders in dams, etc etc.

 

... or one of earths most active earthquake / tsunami zones for nuclear ones... 

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Windfarms are not THE solution and have a number of negatives including "view pollution." Imagine looking at the sea and seeing turbines all over. BUT I actually think there is something positive about this, at least if you get the message: this is us, consuming way too much energy. Instead of putting a power plant in someone else's backyard, we have to face the shit ourselves.

I believe there is a Native American group somewhere on the east coast that sued the government to prevent their sacred landscape from being taken. I don't know what happened to that, but I do think they have a valid point.

 

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Google Thorium Molten Salt Reactor and read up on the technology that will provide clean energy using spent nuclear fuel which will ultimately transition to a breeder reactor for Thorium. Even at theoretical limits to solar and wind power efficiency which aren't presently close to being realized, there wouldn't be enough energy over the entire globe to meet five percent of the US annual electrical needs. The French and the EU are leading the charge on scalable, small footprint, low pressure reactors and I predict soon there will be a well documented track record for the rest of the world to emulate shortly.

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I'm more worried about the noise from the windmills causing cancer!

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17 minutes ago, hobot said:

I'm more worried about the noise from the windmills causing cancer!

It's the higher frequency harmonics that will kill you.

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This is an old and complicated issue, going back to 1970s with ridgeline raptor mortality in the 1970s (early wind farms).
Tall buildings and antenna towers are also major contributors to excessive mortality. One foggy night can literally decimate the entire population of a selection of warblers etc.

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Not that this might solve everything, but recent research done on the subject shows some promise : reason why birds hit the blades is the way they see, the way their eyes operate which is not necessarily same as human beings, knowing that, findings are now that if specific colours and patterns would be painted on the blades it would not solve it totally but make a huge difference. (the explanation I saw was pretty scientific and at moments way over my simple engineer's head, I'm just giving a very rough summary)

Problem is of course -having worked in windfarm industry, can vouch for this one- is that if you already have hundreds of turbines it's not easy to paint the blades, let alone maintain it, and yes, the whole industry needs to adopt it, which is another tall order, some regulation might help, at least overhere in europistan, but in the land of the free ????

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One day I was out back by the boats and a Kingfisher flew across the lagoon and hit the backstay on the sailboat. I scooped him out and he woke up, shook his head and flew off. About a minute later, a blue Jay flew into the VHF antenna on the powerboat. He was dead on impact. 

Last year working on my boat at the boatyard and a warbler hit a backstay and died on the ground a few seconds later. 
 

Maybe we should get rid of these dangerous items.

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On 12/21/2020 at 1:09 PM, kinardly said:

Even at theoretical limits to solar and wind power efficiency which aren't presently close to being realized, there wouldn't be enough energy over the entire globe to meet five percent of the US annual electrical needs.

I don’t know where this data comes from but it is false. Solar irradiance in the SW desert is over 1kW/sqm. At 20% efficiency (low) that yields 200W for about 6hrs/day equivalent, or 1.2kWh/d, or 450kWh/yr. 

US electricity consumption in 2019 was 3.9 trillion kWh. The above math says that this can be produced by around 9,000 square km, or an area 95km square. Double it for access roads, etc. Trivial compared to the AZ desert. 
 

The real issue is getting the energy to where it’s needed at the time it’s needed, then electrifying everything else (eg transport). We’re well on our way on both fronts. 

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13 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

One day I was out back by the boats and a Kingfisher flew across the lagoon and hit the backstay on the sailboat. I scooped him out and he woke up, shook his head and flew off. About a minute later, a blue Jay flew into the VHF antenna on the powerboat. He was dead on impact. 

Last year working on my boat at the boatyard and a warbler hit a backstay and died on the ground a few seconds later. 
 

Maybe we should get rid of these dangerous items.

Stack gas from conventional power plants kill a shitload of birds. And then you have things like acid rain, emphysema, etc etc... basically terrible for everything

Electricity is darn nice to have, though. Most of us would have a really hard time without it.

FB- Doug

 

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On 12/20/2020 at 8:23 AM, AClass USA 230 said:

The tip speeds at average wind speeds are around 120 mph, at max turbine speed, the tip speeds are around 180 mph. They are killing machines to any wildlife that gets near them.

 

OK, this sounds like obfuscation to me. You may be sincere in thinking this is relevant but I contend that it isn't and the anti wind power lobby know it. I admit I'm impressed and wouldn't want to feel the brunt of that kind of energy but it's the rotational rate that's relevant from a flying perspective. I don't know but I wouldn't think the angular change rate is more than 10-20 degrees per second and I've seen a few wind turbines in action. For a bird spending its entire life betting on its judgement of relative motion, closure and distance in the air, that should be child's (or chick's) play.

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On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2020 at 1:44 PM, 10thTonner said:

More like 18,000 years... half-life. Proven to be reliable in Russia and Japan. 

and the USA.

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On 12/21/2020 at 11:17 AM, Editor said:

"Won't somebody please think of the children!" And not to worry, worrywart, Trunt is too busy stealing money and trying to pull off the most ridiculous and guaranteed to fail "coup".  I believe you need to find something more important to bitch about.

To be perfectly correct, unless that "Coup d'etat" was imported from the French region of D'Etat, it's actually just a "Sparkling authoritarian takeover".  

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yet the fucking ospreys keep breaking off my windvane.. fuck these birds.... fuck em all. maybe they'll evolve to get smarter and miss the fins....

 

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18 minutes ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

yet the fucking ospreys keep breaking off my windvane.. fuck these birds.... fuck em all. maybe they'll evolve to get smarter and miss the fins....

 

Hold up a spray can of DDT and show it to them. They're got incredible eyesight

- DSK

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Those windmills need wind 

The result is that they only produce about 30 percent of rated output  , the rest must be generated by conventional power plants 

https://www.wind-watch.org/faq-output.php

Add in maintenance ,   equipment service life  and its an expensive game 

You will end up in a California world   of overpriced , unreliable electricity, forests fires , homelessness ,   shit covered streets  ... promoted   by  virtue signaling bearded snowflakes 

 

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On 12/20/2020 at 11:30 AM, Steam Flyer said:

 Suburban cats OTOH take a very high toll of bird life, migratory and otherwise.

 

THIS^^^  And Rural cats also!  We have six bird feeders and 2 suet cakes, year round in our Rural, heavily wooded neighborhood.   Our two 13 year old cats are not allowed on the deck, as they are genetically programmed to kill and eat the birds, and they did so, until we banned them from it.  They are allowed on the screen porch where they can observe the many birds, but cannot touch them.  The other day I watched a beautiful, large Redtail Hawk sitting on an oak branch not far from the deck.  I suspect he was contemplating a Goldfinch for a noon day snack.  When we first moved in, we did have a tiny hawk of a variety I'd never seen before, when he got stunned after hitting a window, while trying to snag a birdie lunch.  I looked him up in my Sibley's book,  but don't recall the breed now....

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16 hours ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

yet the fucking ospreys keep breaking off my windvane.. fuck these birds.... fuck em all. maybe they'll evolve to get smarter and miss the fins....

 

Many boats up here have some kind of vertical metal rod sticking up just out of range of the Windex.  Larger birds like an Osprey cannot then land on yours...

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There are multiple sides on every side.


Wind: primarily diurnal (but not always).

Sun: Diurnal.

Nuclear: steady load.

Gas: fast-start

Oil, faster to change than nuclear but not like gas.

Wind: expensive and maintenance heavy. Offshore wind, absurdly so.

Solar: getting cheaper by the minute. Maintenance depends on variety of factors.

Negating factor for solar: cutting down forests to put up fucking solar arrays.

Solar and wind being diurnal means they don't work at night. Not available for "base load" or "night load."

Nuclear potentially makes excess at night--storage or transmission to solve that.

How do the French do it? They produce I think 80% nuclear. I know the Germans are now buying from them (because they stupidly terminated their own nuclear program!)

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2 hours ago, eastern motors said:

Yep.  We need one or more of gas/coal, nuclear, or ridiculously giant toxic batteries.  Nuclear is best for the environment. 

What is needed is a reduction in energy consumption 

 

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Not realistic though on a global level with billions aspiring to a western lifestyle. Efficiency helps, but it’s only a piece of the puzzle. 

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On 12/25/2020 at 8:44 AM, Snaggletooth said:

@kinardlyIs thisse the ritte oune?

Yes, that's it. Weird it doesn't work for Billy Backstay. I just tried and it went right to it, although I had to click "skip the commercials".

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On 12/27/2020 at 6:03 AM, socalrider said:

Not realistic though on a global level with billions aspiring to a western lifestyle. Efficiency helps, but it’s only a piece of the puzzle. 

The general populace typically have absolutely no clue about saving energy, with newer generations being the worse. When remote controlled table lamps (for example) with all their world-wide accumulated parasitic current draws start to become a thing we've jumped the shark.

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Since we're talking purely anecdotally. 

I spent 2011-2017 skippering the crew transfer vessels that took the engineers out to build maintain them, I still work offshore, just on the mothership now. 
In that 9 years I've yet to once see a single bird get struck by them, not saying it never happens, but I've not seen it. To read some of the comments I see online, you'd think the biggest risk of falling objects would be eviscerated birds. 

Interesting statistic, over 30x more birds are killed by flying into buildings than turbines. Does this mean we need to start building out of straw again?

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