dbcooper2000

Double handed options in US for under $100k

Recommended Posts

Hi All.

Sorry if I'm repeating a topic, but I'm in the US and looking to get serious with some double handed racing next year. I've spent a lot of time on J boats and know the 88 could work in my price range and like the look of the new 99 but can't stretch to it yet. Wondering what else users might point be to have a look at for around or under $100k.

Thanks all.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

VXOne, but I suspect you may be looking for a larger, albeit slower, doublehander. Might help if you stated a size range and specify the type of racing you are interested in, off-shore, in-shore, around the buoys, transpac...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Depends on your skill level. A Mercury is far less than 100K. Competition is fierce. And one never gets very far from the YC bar.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, sorry. I should have been more specific. Definitely looking for something 28-36 ft primarily club racing, longer distance in-shore, and ideally the ability to hit an off-shore race every once in a while. Also, we're not beginners. Lots of inshore and offshore racing experience skippering and crewing boats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also depends on the rating system. And the makeup of local fleet...especially the regular podium finishers. If PHRF I would choose something to sail alongside the other most fun crews regardless of fleet standings.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Figaro 2 @robalex117 suggested is definitely a good shout and can be pretty competitive once you’ve learnt how to get the most from them. I race a J88 regularly and I can say 2 handed racing in one is a challenge. The sail plan is easy enough but the boat has very little form stability and without small code sails its reaching performance is poor. It can be tiring to push the boat in a mixed fleet racing 2 handed or solo. I have a cheap tiller pilot which isn’t much use in over 14kts of wind but the boat would benefit greatly from a pilot with a 9 axis gyro. I’ll be taking part in a few RORC races in 2021 in it so I can report back!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For $100k you could properly pimp out a later J/92S with a below-deck gyropilot, new sail wardrobe, bobstay / fixed sprit for code zero and so on and have a bit left over for running costs. I'm not sure you could achieve that w/ an 88 for $100k even if the used market for them is a bit soft.

Like the 88 though you wouldn't be able to do races that need Cat 2 certification - over here that's Fastnet / Round Ireland type distance. If you want to go properly offshore buy a 105 or 109 but accept you will sacrifice some of that small boat fun factor and that running costs scale with at least the square of length.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Figaro 2; or there was a Farr/Mumm 30 that'd been modded with prodder etc (but'd probably still need water ballast) mentioned in these pages.

I have a Mount Gay 30 here in Aus that fits the bill, and I believe there are a few in the states. The J88 I have raced against was a long way behind. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Fig 2 is pretty sweet. I highly recommend a boat designed for shorthanded if you can find one. Seascape 24/27 could also be good depending on where you are located, what your target race rules are, and your preferred balance of purchase price to required maintenance spend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a no brainer - 2 (two) J80 boats.  One in North America and one in Europe.  working sails for both. One race set for local and international travel.  Sailing is about shared experience.  dollar to fun - it would be hard to find better values and more varied good times. double handed and crewed races in every place you'd ever want to be.

I think you need to state why are you wanting to do this and what this new adventure going to do for you. One you do that the choice of boats will become clearer to you. Actually if it wasn't for my great half tonner - I would be going the way I suggested with the two J80s. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Snowden said:

For $100k you could properly pimp out a later J/92S with a below-deck gyropilot, new sail wardrobe, bobstay / fixed sprit for code zero and so on and have a bit left over for running costs. I'm not sure you could achieve that w/ an 88 for $100k even if the used market for them is a bit soft.

Like the 88 though you wouldn't be able to do races that need Cat 2 certification - over here that's Fastnet / Round Ireland type distance. If you want to go properly offshore buy a 105 or 109 but accept you will sacrifice some of that small boat fun factor and that running costs scale with at least the square of length.

I was going to say a J/92 or J/92s.  More J/92's available to choose from.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fig 2 for sure if you’re in the northeast. You’ll be able to race against the fleet Rich Wilson is putting together for collegiate teams. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The interior of a Fig 2 is spartan. Built for college students doing day races. There is very little that says take a nap in this bitch. The OP is most likely an older gent, there are more comfortable boats that are not egg shells, have a near speed and would work well as a final resting berth resting from a heart attack. The J92 or 105 might better.

Screen Shot 2020-12-23 at 10.45.19 AM.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Black Jack said:

The interior of a Fig 2 is spartan. Built for college students doing day races. There is very little that says take a nap in this bitch. The OP is most likely an older gent, there are more comfortable boats that are not egg shells, have a near speed and would work well as a final resting berth resting from a heart attack. The J92 or 105 might better.

Screen Shot 2020-12-23 at 10.45.19 AM.png

Looks comfortable enough to me - but I'm resigned to the fact that even a cruiser wouldn't appeal to my wife! Does it have a head?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Black Jack said:

The interior of a Fig 2 is spartan. Built for college students doing day races. There is very little that says take a nap in this bitch. The OP is most likely an older gent, there are more comfortable boats that are not egg shells, have a near speed and would work well as a final resting berth resting from a heart attack. The J92 or 105 might better.

Screen Shot 2020-12-23 at 10.45.19 AM.png

I’ll wait for the OP to add on those non-racing restrictions before pulling any punches. 
 

The Fig 2 is pretty nice inside for a race boat, sure beats the hell out of my Fig 3 where my wife and I have to rely on beanbags, camping cots, and a jetboil for our comforts when cruising. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:

Looks comfortable enough to me - but I'm resigned to the fact that even a cruiser wouldn't appeal to my wife!

Brilliant!

Yes, that was something I realized long ago: She prefers no boat, nor will ever leave me, so stopped asking or listening.

Same with my cleaning chores: never pleased, so therefore minimum effort suffices. Heh.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Get a Cal 34. Gift rating, light loads, cheap sails, nice interior, easy maintenance, doesn’t matter if you sink it and or hit someone. Also they track really well and essentially sail themselves. Just get used to being in the back. 

DSC_1525.JPG

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:

Looks comfortable enough to me - but I'm resigned to the fact that even a cruiser wouldn't appeal to my wife! Does it have a head?

If we all had a dime for every person who bought a more comfortable boat so their significant other would go sailing, then found out that significant other just doesn't like sailing no matter what boat they're on we'd all be rich.  Alternatively, there's also plenty of us who use the significant other as an excuse when the truth is we're just getting soft ourselves.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Other boat suggestions, maybe an older Pogo, JPK or Archambault?  Not many in the US but if you're looking for a good shorthanded boat it might be worth looking at importing, or you may get lucky and find one in the states.  I'm not very familiar with prices for the older Pogos or Archambaults but their are some JPK 960's that come up on the JPK website with asking prices around $90K-ish USD.  960 pics below: 

960-2.jpg

960-1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn’t a major consideration be finding a boat that can sail to her rating with only one on the rail?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly the F2 is a fantastic option and having sailed a Figaro 2, J92, 92S, 105, 109 etc. I can tell you the F2 is significantly faster all round. This company based in Lorient has been shared before on these forums but they give race boats a second life through refits to make them more usable. I’m not suggesting you go to the expense of buying a boat they’ve fitted out and then shipping it but it could be an idea that they could provide an interior kit that you then either fit yourself or pay someone local to do the work. For ultimate ease of use I’d fit a fixed bowsprit or even something like a trogear bowsprit and run just asymmetrics 

 

https://dreamracerboats.com/en/figaro-convert-cruiser/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, El Borracho said:

Wouldn’t a major consideration be finding a boat that can sail to her rating with only one on the rail?

Yes! a boat that can sail short handed to her rating, with no one on the rail, most lines aft, a comfortable bunk to take a glorious afternoon wink and brings one home in good shape and spirits to my adoration. 

Each season our lives get shorter. Given the love I have for my wife and the happiness she brings me I’d rather have a lesser boat if it means she would by chance be more comfortable aboard to spend a couple of overnights a year, swim off her stern and still have the draw to bring my closest sailing partner(s) to join me when I want to compete in bay races. The refreshed 1D35 We have is an fast albatross and with COVID makes it unusable going on to its second year.
This past year I finally was capable of buying any new or old boat I ever wanted but I chose one after years of fixers and renovation dreams. my recently acquired  6k half tonner is a delight and because of its simplicity  and basic luxury including a decent head, my wife of 25 years finally sails with me for afternoons and does overnights.  (I still think the two j80s option were be a hoot) The money I saved on the new boat lets me spend more of it on our time, to travel the world in luxury, to ride my motorcycle around the globe and to really live the full life as I go into my mid 50s.

when it come to the three bridge fiasco next month - my 49 year old, 31’ phrf 150 boat if sailed properly in a timely manner will in good likelihood finish in corrected time with boats 20x my purchased price. If by chance the wind craps out, I will have a nice berth to sleep and not have to use a Home Depot bucket to crap in as I motor back home at dusk.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Alberta said:

I’ll wait for the OP to add on those non-racing restrictions before pulling any punches. 
 

The Fig 2 is pretty nice inside for a race boat, sure beats the hell out of my Fig 3 where my wife and I have to rely on beanbags, camping cots, and a jetboil for our comforts when cruising. 

Please do share your cruising experience and pics in a fig3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fig2 is clearly faster than the crossover options - it rates higher than a SF36 under IRC due to the huge rig and water ballast. It’s probably not the right option for someone just getting started in 2H racing with a limited budget 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Boats have huge switching costs though. Ideally there would be a liquid market with common enough boat types for people to start small and trade up as they progress, but that only exists in France. For the rest of us we are picking boats for the next 5 years (and hopefully a lot of progression)
 

the Fig 2 is certainly more aggressive than a J/boat, but that’s a low bar. At the end of the day it’s still a 30ft keelboat with moderately sized sails and plenty of righting moment so that you aren’t on your ear like the crewed boats without railmeat. Plus with a proper shorthanded cockpit layout, autopilot, and water ballast you will have the best possible sailing experience where you’ll wonder why anyone wants so many people on a small boat in the first place. Plus Figs can draw on all the French resources, be it sail choice, polar targets, copying rigging optimization from photos, or anything else. Shorthanding a cruiser/racer built for crew seems like it would put you on a knowledge island and have to figure everything out for yourself, unless the NZ doublehanded scene has experience to share. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious why no love for the J120. I know I've seen one recently for well under $100K. It might cost a bit more to trick her out but I was under the impression they pretty much ruled the 2H forty footer class.

I've always liked the way J boats sail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are a beginner at DH, don't spend money yet as you will change boat when you know what's right for you.

J92 is a great suggestion, Figaro One is a great option for solo without being too complicated, think First 31.7 lighter by a ton, J/105 is a great DH offshore boat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/24/2020 at 7:02 PM, kinardly said:

I'm curious why no love for the J120. I know I've seen one recently for well under $100K. It might cost a bit more to trick her out but I was under the impression they pretty much ruled the 2H forty footer class.

I've always liked the way J boats sail.

A 120 is a great boat, but unless your plans are offshore 2H racing, I think there are better boats out there.  It is alot of boat to double hand for 20-30 mile races.  Going to Bermuda you are right that it would be hard to find a better big boat around that price point.  You would also be hard pressed to get one well setup with decent sails for under $125K much less under $100K.  Trust me, I bought a cheaper one over the winter and by the time i am done i will be into it for $140K.  Now I am going to have a good boat with new sails and electronics (the way I want it)  but shit adds up quick with a 40'er.  

I like the J/100, 92 or 105 options for what he is considering.  Fig 2 is an interesting boat and worthy of consideration, but I think it would take a while to get up to speed with it and be competitive. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Don’t know about offshore.  

Doesn't meet many offshore rules.   I've sailed them extensively and it's a weapon but not really setup for offshore work.   Many through deck fittings, no hatch, no lifelines (would be very uncomfortable to sail with then as the boat heels readily), no accommodations, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the Summer of 2018 I went boat shopping for Figaro 2s in the North of France anticipating good prices as 100+ boats all went on the market at the same time being sold off by corporate teams.  My wife believed we were driving through the Loire Valley for our Anniversary with a number of Coastal stops, but that's another story...

While all the Figaro 2s I looked at were professionally maintained by teams, these boats were pretty beat up and had all been rode hard for a long time.

I really liked the boat - they are pretty much the perfect shorthanded set up, but all I saw would have required major and expensive refits.  I ended up with a skinny 40 ft French boat with a carbon rig that had much fewer miles and was better taken care of and set up for double-handed offshore.

If you can find a good Figaro 2, they'd be great, but it is going to require some in person shopping and some time.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tell us more about the skinny French girl you picked up?  I mean boat.  Either way sounds like a cool trip but the boat sounds intriguing.  

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, T sailor said:

Tell us more about the skinny French girl you picked up?  I mean boat.  Either way sounds like a cool trip but the boat sounds intriguing.  

I'll bet she moans when you crack her sheets and ease her jib a tad....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, T sailor said:

Tell us more about the skinny French girl you picked up?  I mean boat.  Either way sounds like a cool trip but the boat sounds intriguing.  

2005 "Seahorse" S-40 built at the Naval Force 3 Yard in La Rochelle.  Joubert-Nivelt design.  39.25' LOA, 9.25' beam, 7.75' draft with bulb keel, 9185lbs, FRG hull, Carbon rig, spartan racing interior. Looks a lot like a J/125.  Was featured on infamous front page back ~2005. 

Japanese company commissioned it and built 4 on the relative cheap.  Sold 3 to his buddies in Japan and 1 to France then went bankrupt/out of business/something.  Blogs are in Japanese and sporadic.   Mine is no. 2 and has more work to qualify for Cat 2 and Carbon rig. Boat was campaigned in Japan shorthanded offshore.  Second Japanese owner did two Transpacs (2013/2015) finished 2nd in Div twice then left it in Hawaii.  I bought in late 2018 in Oahu and shipped it back to PNW.  Plans for Vic Maui this year got scuttled by some Bat Soup.

FB_IMG_1608230494367.jpg

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Almost ran down to the dock to see if Amati (commissioned 1999) was still there! ;)  My compliments!

Boats like this have a weird (but wonderfully smooth) speed,  compared to multis, windsurfers, or dinghies - they can be a handful. And she’ll sneak up on you. (On oh so soft apparent wind paws....)It helps to think 1-5 minutes out, at least.   That, and you’ll probably have to get used to sailing upwind with your Windex pointing straight forward.  Docking in wind can be, um, interesting...

A wheel?  Do I see a wheel?  <_<Desecration!  :P

A boat like this is like a poem.... and needs a tiller! 

(Do you have a lines drawing?).  

Enjoy!  Whitesail (blacksail?) planing downwind is da bomb!



 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is the S40 related to the Optio?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, chickenlips said:

Here's a link to the S-40 Seahorse Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/S-36-S-40-by-SeahorseInc-448670868503904/

There's a lot to like about the S-40

Thanks for posting this.  I've read the 2006 blog in Japanese which this is based on, but never found this FB page!   Which is crazy given I bought Crescent III and barged her all the way from Hawaii to Seattle.  The boat is now Ultraman III and was originally Adonis AFAIK.  I've used this info to put together a better back story in a PDF having translated the posts and put them in order somewhat.  Most of the info I knew from my files, but a great find.

As to the OP, sorry for the massive thread drift.  As for 28-36ft, <$100K shorthanded offshore race boat in the US, this is a very hard problem to solve.  It shouldn't be, but it is...  Moving up from a successful 5 year campaign on a Ross 930 and wanting to be able to get to Hawaii, I considered and looked for: J/105, 1D35, J/92S, Columbia 32C, Figaro II, C&C30OD and anything else that might pop up.  None of them were either available or fit the bill or were within the budget.  I wasn't looking for 40 footers, but ended up there.

I really wanted the Columbia 32C, but those were beset by problems.  Only 4 were built and 2 have been lost, although I think this was more user error than an issue with the builder/design.

What I did learn is that moving boats around the world is not for the weak of wallet, so make sure you find what you want and get it at a good price.  The purchase price is only the entry point and will easily be eclipsed by upgrades and operating expenses which seem to go up by the cube of length...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pogo is good inexpensive way to begin, not a comfortable boat (my wife will not even consider) but fun to sail. Fig 2 wonderful boat and luxurious in comparison to Mini Classe and a joy to sail.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/23/2020 at 7:39 PM, silversailor said:

An Andrews 28 fills all the boxes. 

He's right. Mine used to be in Connecticut so I know it fits. Here's a funny video of us doublehanding her in a fun race against fully crewed Melges 32, etc., we took 3rd: 

 

Trouble is finding one for sale out of the four in existence.

Cheers, Greg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/29/2020 at 10:17 PM, gcutter said:

He's right. Mine used to be in Connecticut so I know it fits. Here's a funny video of us doublehanding her in a fun race against fully crewed Melges 32, etc., we took 3rd: 

 

Trouble is finding one for sale out of the four in existence.

Cheers, Greg

I would love to see an Andrews 28 in a steep chop and blow. Do you have a video of that?  Would be quite revealing.

Maybe an Antrim 27 might work better in a place like San Francisco and meet price target.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would an Antrim 27 be a better boat in chop and a blow?  Antrim is lighter and wider...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Roleur said:

Why would an Antrim 27 be a better boat in chop and a blow?  Antrim is lighter and wider...

A couple of reasons - Antrim 27 were designed for and are raced/sailed in San Francisco. Arguably a more challenging location than most other popular sailing centers. The basic design has been updated to meet the local conditions  and improved upon with Jim Antrim’s full assistance and almost as significant the boats are continued to being made today. Considering how many compete and have sailed more trying courses shorted handed  and fully crewed, we know the trials they have gone through. Andrews 28 no doubt checks a lot of boxes and has a decent reputation for speed and bumped spartan comfort but sadly to my eye her freeboard and cabin is not an elegant one or has the sleek that wows. (as much as I love sailing - my desired boats have to sing to me). The functional trade off in delivering a cabin to be just slightly better than a campin in with head room for someone just under 6’. Moreover with fewer Andrew 28 available - there is only speculation of how they handle in conditions that get over 25 and in steep chop. (It was my point to call out Andrew 28 owners to show their boats in a video of progress and handling in a chop and blow as I have never seen one sail in harsher conditions which generally make these lightly built boats broach and slam). 

One can get a decent Antrim 27 between 25 to 50 grand. That boat delivers a 75/78 phrf,  an ambishious skipper could have two main sails a power head for racing full crews or more traditional for short handed race sail management. I am not quite sure of pricing but the new all carbon Antrim 27c is a weapon - the new builds are faster and may be boats to add to ones lookout list.  This new 27c  has a hull and deck constructed completely from carbon fiber skin on foam core.  This considerable weight savings was offset with a heavier lead bulb lifting keel, which should make for easier short-handed sailing. The brief was to build a boat that would be fast and fun yet easy to manage while double-handing the biannual Pacific Cup race to Hawai'i.  ‘'io, named for the last surviving bird of prey native to Hawai'i, the first A27C was built for a longtime friend and customer of Antrim, a boat that would be fast and fun yet easy to manage while double-handing in the bay and against other speedy short handed sport boat hybrids that are the rage now. in a passing note, io was first boat to finish in the 2020 Three Bridge Fiasco race on her first sea trial beating even the multihulls around the course, and holding off the next monohull by 25 minutes.  

The standard older Antrim 27 could be integrated to include the carbon EC-6 rigging and the new deeper bulb keel and yet still fall under the 100k price point.

17D2C28C-6100-4977-B24B-A63D51ECB867.jpeg

06585441-5EB7-4CAC-8C5E-E36889D4B794.jpeg
 

http://antrimdesign.com/antrim27c.html

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I agree with most everything you wrote, am quite familiar with the Antrim 27.  Jim is a great guy and the carbon version project with Buzz is very cool, but...  None of that addresses why an Antrim 27 would be better than an Andrews 28 in chop and a blow.  I would actually say the opposite, particularly DH.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Roleur said:

None of that addresses why an Antrim 27 would be better than an Andrews 28 in chop and a blow.  I would actually say the opposite, particularly DH.  

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Roleur said:

Well, I agree with most everything you wrote, am quite familiar with the Antrim 27.  Jim is a great guy and the carbon version project with Buzz is very cool, but...  None of that addresses why an Antrim 27 would be better than an Andrews 28 in chop and a blow.  I would actually say the opposite, particularly DH.  

we can do it the other way then - Where is the proof that the Andrews can actually do it? 

We both know and have seen the Antrim do it ok. As for ideal 100k do it all shorted handed fast family - no way to either. In the last SSS race I did was in plus 25kts and steep fetch with around 150 boats, the only ULDB semi-sports boats that were not that badly punished in the big lumps were the Antrims boats. Watching these classes and design direction of modern boats climb in chop and fetch made me realize how much better, safe and comfortable some other boats are over others. The talk of downwind speed is one thing. Finding a boat the brings speed, balance, comfort, cabin and a level of cockpit dryness is another. Horses for courses. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Black Jack said:

^Sweet!  :o

i-5WxbCJT-600x247.png

Having any video of her going to weather?

 

Haha I was waiting for  someone to post the pitch pole video. No one really takes a video of them upwind because it’s less interesting but they’re 32ft boats that’s go upwind like a 35 footer. They’re beamy and have water ballast so upwind isn’t an issue, I’ve sailed one and they’re pretty stiff.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, JL92S said:

Haha I was waiting for  someone to post the pitch pole video. No one really takes a video of them upwind because it’s less interesting but they’re 32ft boats that’s go upwind like a 35 footer. They’re beamy and have water ballast so upwind isn’t an issue, I’ve sailed one and they’re pretty stiff.

 

I heard gentlemen do not go to windward.  Sure going down wind surfing is sexy video but it is only half the story.  Not every race is down wind or on a beam reach.  the hull speed of a modern semi-sports 32 foot boat being faster than a modern 35 semi-sports boat up wind though possible if factoring differences in crew and captains but not likely based on hull speed theory.  Moreover the idea that no one needs to show a boat going up wind is well... entertaining.  There are plenty of times a boat that goes up wind is a phrf killer.  The hyperbole shouldn't be lost to anyone who is interested in VOG and ability to point.   My 1/2 tonner is faster on a point than most ULDBs of the same size. There is an unpleasant look on the other skippers faces when we do. When the times are corrected out, the difference shave off the faster surf factor in changing conditions and marks that favor upwind boats.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/1/2021 at 9:14 AM, Black Jack said:

A couple of reasons - Antrim 27 were designed for and are raced/sailed in San Francisco. Arguably a more challenging location than most other popular sailing centers. The basic design has been updated to meet the local conditions  and improved upon with Jim Antrim’s full assistance and almost as significant the boats are continued to being made today. Considering how many compete and have sailed more trying courses shorted handed  and fully crewed, we know the trials they have gone through. Andrews 28 no doubt checks a lot of boxes and has a decent reputation for speed and bumped spartan comfort but sadly to my eye her freeboard and cabin is not an elegant one or has the sleek that wows. (as much as I love sailing - my desired boats have to sing to me). The functional trade off in delivering a cabin to be just slightly better than a campin in with head room for someone just under 6’. Moreover with fewer Andrew 28 available - there is only speculation of how they handle in conditions that get over 25 and in steep chop. (It was my point to call out Andrew 28 owners to show their boats in a video of progress and handling in a chop and blow as I have never seen one sail in harsher conditions which generally make these lightly built boats broach and slam). 

One can get a decent Antrim 27 between 25 to 50 grand. That boat delivers a 75/78 phrf,  an ambishious skipper could have two main sails a power head for racing full crews or more traditional for short handed race sail management. I am not quite sure of pricing but the new all carbon Antrim 27c is a weapon - the new builds are faster and may be boats to add to ones lookout list.  This new 27c  has a hull and deck constructed completely from carbon fiber skin on foam core.  This considerable weight savings was offset with a heavier lead bulb lifting keel, which should make for easier short-handed sailing. The brief was to build a boat that would be fast and fun yet easy to manage while double-handing the biannual Pacific Cup race to Hawai'i.  ‘'io, named for the last surviving bird of prey native to Hawai'i, the first A27C was built for a longtime friend and customer of Antrim, a boat that would be fast and fun yet easy to manage while double-handing in the bay and against other speedy short handed sport boat hybrids that are the rage now. in a passing note, io was first boat to finish in the 2020 Three Bridge Fiasco race on her first sea trial beating even the multihulls around the course, and holding off the next monohull by 25 minutes.  

The standard older Antrim 27 could be integrated to include the carbon EC-6 rigging and the new deeper bulb keel and yet still fall under the 100k price point.

17D2C28C-6100-4977-B24B-A63D51ECB867.jpeg

06585441-5EB7-4CAC-8C5E-E36889D4B794.jpeg
 

http://antrimdesign.com/antrim27c.html

BJ - that's pretty harsh for a boat you have never sailed on; "lightly built" doesn't describe the Andrews 28 at all. Indeed, Ivan overbuilt them, which didn't help him stay in business in the 2008-2010 recession. She does great in steep chop in a breeze, which when it blows in the Chesapeake Bay are best described as square waves. The CB is very shallow and the chop is much much worse than that in SF Bay. FYI, I sailed for over 20 years in SF Bay and have sailed on an Antrim 27 (aka Ultimate 27) with Jim. So, I know this boat too. They are apples and oranges. You may not like the freeboard and cabin, but they don't affect her sailing abilities at all, just docking in a breeze (see, honesty). After years of fast but wet on an Elliott 770 my wife wanted a fast, but dry, boat with headroom that we could easily shorthand, or sail with full crew and go distances either under sail or at 60mph on the trailer. We have sailed offshore and in the CB in all kinds of conditions and for up to 10 days. Turns out we have a video from November that show's beating in 20-25 kts with 2-3' of square wave chop. It's a "fun" race so just white sails, but the part that should address your question is after rounding the lighthouse and we tuck a reef. You can't see the speedo but we're doing 5.7-6.1 kts to weather with the cruising sails.

You asked and you got it. The Andrews 28 handles it all just fine, 1100 lbs 7 ft down helps as does a deep rudder; Alan knows what he's doing. Admittedly, we got Diablo because she's wickedly fast in light air, but she goes to weather when it's blowing too.

This is SA after all, but I'm not getting into a pissing match, the Andrews 28 can go to weather in a blow and chop.

Cheers, Greg

 

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad you like your boat Greg. thank you for being gracious and kind enough to write something about her. Good on you as you seem to be quite happy with your performance and love the way it is. Alan did build a nice boat for your usual conditions with the ability to tow behind a SUV. I did see the Andrews at the Oakland Boat show when it came out but never took a ride. Your time lapse cockpit video shows you moving nicely on flattish water but is not indicative of anything other than a good turn of speed and ability to be double handed well. Since there is no sound, we can not hear any slapping or note comfort levels that most modern sportish boats tend to have going to weather. Without the risk of being too rude, I am waiting to see another boat or video drone chase a Andrews 28 rather than a aft mounted go pro. As a professional shooter and producer, I tend to want what I want to see in my own eye. (I am renting a house in Annapolis this summer - I sure hope you can find time to let me get a ride on her if that would ever work out). I know this is sailing anarchy and we can and do have our sticky opinions. I come from a maritime family, have been sailing since the age of three, sailed nearly everywhere and have had a boat in San Francisco since the mid 80s.  I tend to like classic “well founded’ boats and maybe hold biases that relegate me to a certain demographic. Your, my  and the thousands of others opinions are what makes this forum interesting and so diverse.

can you tell me if you race the Antrim’s locally, how do you fair and what things you think that separates the two boats in the competition. Thank you again for your indulgences.

Ted
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/24/2020 at 12:42 AM, badia420 said:

Please do share your cruising experience and pics in a fig3

Here are a couple of photos, sitting on a mooring at Catalina, anchored in Coches Prietos on Santa Cruz Island, and a look at the sleeping arrangement. The sailing is great fun, and there is plenty of space inside for two, but as you can see the only luxury is the speed under sail. Anchoring near others can be challenging with a lightweight boat that offers nearly zero lateral resistance at rest as it sails pretty aggressively at anchor, but there are solutions.

Overall, being able to do trips is a nice addition to full-on shorthanded sailing. Especially in a sub-40ft boat the weight of an interior can make a pretty big impact on speed, but with the wide french style hulls there is a significant amount of space inside. I'm much happier being able to get on the plane in 10-11kts of wind rather than have a comfier place to sit or an electric windlass, so it works for us.

IMG_5207.thumb.jpg.dfe4e3a77308b24f6a72949b1c1fff14.jpg

IMG_1136.thumb.jpg.8ca90f45b272d54a27d5067b48972714.jpg

IMG_1082.thumb.JPG.4e67eb3a3931be567a22f6ff8d1d9c24.JPG

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/4/2021 at 10:40 AM, Alberta said:

IMG_1082.thumb.JPG.4e67eb3a3931be567a22f6ff8d1d9c24.JPG

This is the greatest empty bow pipe berth set up I've seen.  Not sure you'd get much sleep off watch pounding upwind in chop!  Gotta get one for my boat where there is nothing up there but wet spinnakers, hanging ropes and the head!

Crescent III 9.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The setup in the photo is for cruising only, meaning two sleeping at anchor or on a mooring. While sailing there would only ever be 1 person sleeping at a time, so the typical Figaro solution of bean bags next to the companionway stairs works a treat.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Alberta said:

The setup in the photo is for cruising only, meaning two sleeping at anchor or on a mooring. While sailing there would only ever be 1 person sleeping at a time, so the typical Figaro solution of bean bags next to the companionway stairs works a treat.

This the Figaro 3 that raced to Hawaii in 2018, yes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, 2018 Pac Cup and 2019 Transpac with the previous owner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

the only ULDB semi-sports boats that were not that badly punished in the big lumps were the Antrims boats

The best most sailed shorthanded Antrim 27 was Polar Bear, an SSS regular.   He raced with a pinhead small mainsail and a max spin of like 70% just to keep it upright.   It 78 it had a heard time staying ahead of the 135 rated vintage Starbuck.   It was always on it's ear except in light air.   Yes....  it's a very fun boat and I've helmed them plenty and done 15K+ double handed.....   but it was sketchy.   I've spoken to Antrim who said with the increased ballast and righting moment (weight reduction in the hull = 200lbs'ish put into the bulb + carbon EC6 rigging) that he "couldn't believe how much faster the boat feels".

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/22/2020 at 11:55 AM, Alberta said:

The Fig 2 is pretty sweet. I highly recommend a boat designed for shorthanded if you can find one. Seascape 24/27 could also be good depending on where you are located, what your target race rules are, and your preferred balance of purchase price to required maintenance spend.

Would you be so kind as to expand on this please? I'd love to read more about any experiences people have with the Seascape 27 (or the First 27SE).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the 27 is anything like the 24 then it will sail well. I’ve sailed a 24 and loved it however the offshore Cat B nature of the 27 might be a problem if aspiring to do bigger races. Also I’ve not heard of a rating system where they are competitive. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/5/2021 at 3:21 PM, Alberta said:

Yes, 2018 Pac Cup and 2019 Transpac with the previous owner.

Love that boat! Congrats. You in LB? We are in Cabrillo.

With Covid, we are now just sailing 2 up. Seal Beach is planning some Doublehanded events. Would love to pace w/you guys in our Columbia 32.

We should be competitive in the light but you should wave bye bye once breeze is up and foil working. Would be fun.

100926440_10222064588353908_7983224853182283776_o.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a resistance in the US to either having water ballast or canting keels in shorthanded boats, some of this driven by cost. The most popular short handed boats are those in the $15-40k price range, adding water ballast or a canting keel quickly blows up costs. Also the emphasis on legal beam restrictions for towing hampers increasing RM via form stability or increasing power via beam. The Shock 40 was a good compromise in that the boat was light but still made good use of a canting system.

Developing a tackle controlled canting system for a 30' or shorter boat would be nice, something that could be cost effectively retro-ed or added to new builds. Most keelboat sailors would hate having a single, much less double, dagger board trunk to deal with. Another option is a deck mounted water bag system but the plumbing still needs to go in. Then we might see both more performance upwind and potentially more surfing offwind with short crews. Rating them is another issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Adding a canting system to an Antrim 27 might cost $10-25k, you'd probably lose the vertical movement, and a single dagger might be another $10k+. In the end you'd  have a $40k boat that was worth...$40k. After spending an additional $20-40k on it. Only a die hard enthusiast would do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How much of this resistance is due to everyone anchoring to the prices of the classic plastic decaying in US marinas? 
 

Boats cost more than 40k to make. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bruno said:

Adding a canting system to an Antrim 27 might cost $10-25k, you'd probably lose the vertical movement, and a single dagger might be another $10k+. In the end you'd  have a $40k boat that was worth...$40k. After spending an additional $20-40k on it. Only a die hard enthusiast would do it.

Interesting comment. I think you just established the value of all boats in these similar classes -  40k for what is considered by many an ideal short handed  racer. Sure people can spend more but why? 100k boat purchase is now twice the recommend top of the market. 

“Only a die hard (LOL!) would do it.”    Off the new lot depreciation under these understandings should make a boat buyer shudder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cost is a funny thing, you can buy a Hobie 33 for 15-20k then spend 100k working it up for a Transpac.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And what does that scene look like for those of us who will still be doing this in 30 years? US sailors only pursuing vintage classes in now 50 year old boats?

New boats are faster + more fun, especially shorthanded designs, and buying them is what keeps the supply of used boats going for all the budget programs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Alberta said:

And what does that scene look like for those of us who will still be doing this in 30 years? US sailors only pursuing vintage classes in now 50 year old boats?

New boats are faster + more fun, especially shorthanded designs, and buying them is what keeps the supply of used boats going for all the budget programs.

Fast is fun. Fast enough to be out there is all thing being equal is just as fun. The boats you look forward to today in thirty years from now will be less desirable to you in that time. I am pretty certain you will want comfort along with speed.  It is always been the great compromise.

The reason we have the abundance of boats we have now are because we learned to sail with our many friends and boats themselves needed crews. As we grew to be with even more friends and compete in club racing, we created a market and encouraged those with some money to buy the new design or model which we have today. The short handed trend and promoted here I would argue is detrimental to sailing and to friendships we bring in and to grow the sport. Fewer newer boats is an ominous sign as is seeing how they are marketed in ways that make them less family friendly and ultimately no needing of any more friends. As we take fewer friends as well as the next generation out sailing, we can only blame ourselves for helping reduce the scope and availability of fresh designs and properly maintained sailing and racing yachts. this is not how we went into the golden age of recreational sailing and as we edge out of it, our willingness to sail alone/with another is a serious action to reduce the sport we love.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Water ballast or canting keels really don't make sense for inshore racing.   Even for medium offshore coastal work (Farallones @ 60n) it would be very difficult to make up the rating hit those systems have.   Also as mentioned it adds a lot of complexity of use.   How much to cant, how much ballast to use, etc. is always a moving target.   It's more applicable for distance offshore where you can put it to work for longer periods of time.  Also, many distance racers are off the wind and those systems provide less benefit.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Black Jack said:

Fast is fun. Fast enough to be out there is all thing being equal is just as fun. The boats you look forward to today in thirty years from now will be less desirable to you in that time. I am pretty certain you will want comfort along with speed.  It is always been the great compromise.

The reason we have the abundance of boats we have now are because we learned to sail with our many friends and boats themselves needed crews. As we grew to be with even more friends and compete in club racing, we created a market and encouraged those with some money to buy the new design or model which we have today. The short handed trend and promoted here I would argue is detrimental to sailing and to friendships we bring in and to grow the sport. Fewer newer boats is an ominous sign as is seeing how they are marketed in ways that make them less family friendly and ultimately no needing of any more friends. As we take fewer friends as well as the next generation out sailing, we can only blame ourselves for helping reduce the scope and availability of fresh designs and properly maintained sailing and racing yachts. this is not how we went into the golden age of recreational sailing and as we edge out of it, our willingness to sail alone/with another is a serious action to reduce the sport we love.

So, we have an obligation to own/operate less crew efficient boats for the benefit of the sport? I don't know how to process that statement. Yesterday I decided I wanted to go sailing. Wife, daughter and son in law had other plans. So, I went sailing. No stocking up on sandwiches, beer and snacks, no calling around the day before for a head count, no waiting at the boat to see who shows up-I just went sailing. I could easily accommodate 8-10, in fact that's about what the racing complement for my boat is, but the organizational challenge is a major deterrent to me, not to mention a bad idea during this Covid pandemic. I just wanted to go out sailing. 

So, I did. No guilt here.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, kinardly said:

So, we have an obligation to own/operate less crew efficient boats for the benefit of the sport? I don't know how to process that statement. Yesterday I decided I wanted to go sailing. Wife, daughter and son in law had other plans. So, I went sailing. No stocking up on sandwiches, beer and snacks, no calling around the day before for a head count, no waiting at the boat to see who shows up-I just went sailing. I could easily accommodate 8-10, in fact that's about what the racing complement for my boat is, but the organizational challenge is a major deterrent to me, not to mention a bad idea during this Covid pandemic. I just wanted to go out sailing. 

So, I did. No guilt here.

Happy for you. We all recognized why we do go it alone and equally often shorthanded.  I am as guilty (or not) as you are in this recreation.  Solo sailing is a honest pleasure when you can't get a second hand or do not want to bother asking for or wanting to spring for other people to join you on the pursuit of tossing the ropes. Most people understand why one would do it. Convenience, expediency and immediate gratification comes to mind first.  Sadly, the quiet pleasurable exercise of solo adventures rarely bring in others interested in building the passionate inclusive sport.

dick-slip-1a.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gee! and here I thought rising wealth disparity and housing costs had something to do with a declining recreational sailor participation.   It guess it was me going sailing by myself all along.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, B dock said:

Gee! and here I thought rising wealth disparity and housing costs had something to do with a declining recreational sailor participation.   It guess it was me going sailing by myself all along.

There are many facets to the decline of sailing.  I have no doubt fewer are being asked to try.

8F6E5466-5B5D-41F6-83FA-E213E4C53731.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can see why you don’t get many people going sailing with you @Black Jack

 

With a sexy and current generation boat I have no shortage of people interested in going sailing, both experienced and total novices. Pandemic has gotten in the way of making it happen, but making sailing aspirational instead of exclusive helps bring people into the fold. 

Relatedly, I feel that affordability can be a bit of a false idol in yachting. Big boats are always going to be expensive, and focusing only on cost ignores all the other barriers that potential owners face. Like lack of access to training, limited storage options, stodgy yacht clubs with opaque application processes, poor financing availability for younger buyers with more income than assets, etc.

Both of the boats I’ve bought, a $12k beach cat and a $300k keelboat, faced huge logistical challenges and required months of networking and working out loopholes. If I was less motivated, less knowledgeable, or less patient there is no way I would have owned either of them.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Alberta said:

I can see why you don’t get many people going sailing with you @Black Jack

With a sexy and current generation boat I have no shortage of people interested in going sailing, both experienced and total novices. Pandemic has gotten in the way of making it happen, but making sailing aspirational instead of exclusive helps bring people into the fold. 

you don’t know me Alberta.  do hold a 100 ton captains license.  Maybe in the last 4 years have taken 20,000 or more people on San Francisco Bay cruises just because I love bringing people on the water. I am lucky to have a great short handed sailboat as well as refrshed 1D35 which we will do the paccup and/or Transpac fully crewed. I sail maybe 5 times a month in winter and more often in spring, summer and fall.  I have served on the governing board of the master Mariners for almost a decade, served as race chair to the largest and oldest classic boat race on the west coat and still find time to work hard in the wooden boat community outreach. Moreover was commodore of the Aeolian Yacht Club where i lead an effort to make sailing more accessible. Ask any who knows me, I am the first to help when it comes to move a boat, show to work freely in a haul out or yard, always willing to join as crew. Most importantly to this drift in the thread - I do what I preach. I like sailing solo but like most people, I love sharing the experience more.

‘If you ever come back to my Mecca of sailing, please contact me as I love taking out like minds and shared interests. 
 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/10/2021 at 12:20 PM, Bruno said:

There is a resistance in the US to either having water ballast or canting keels in shorthanded boats, some of this driven by cost. The most popular short handed boats are those in the $15-40k price range, adding water ballast or a canting keel quickly blows up costs. Also the emphasis on legal beam restrictions for towing hampers increasing RM via form stability or increasing power via beam. 

I'd love to comment on anything water balla