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1 hour ago, Lickindip said:

it was doing 45knts, the wheel was turned while being fully loaded at the same time a hell of a lot of HP was being put into the sails ... i think its referred to as being 'pushed over the edge'

We can compare with LR here, beginning at 2:45 00. Jimmy calls for an easy bear away, he tells something about the jib that I don't understand, interesting to notice that the traveller is pretty small and that they quickly center the main.

Something is sure, Jimmy is much more clear on his calls, communication on the boat seems much better and straightforward.

 

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So its the electronics for the foil cant system? Not the actual linkage / pivot points? Not the clearest press conference but what can you expect out of an AC team.

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6 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Something is sure, Jimmy is much more clear on his calls, communication on the boat seems much better and straightforward.

Yep when the discussion drifts Jimmy outside the immediate task he authoritatively says twice - "Let's concentrate on sailing the boat".

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7 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Yep when the discussion drifts Jimmy outside the immediate task he authoritatively says twice - "Let's concentrate on sailing the boat".

It seems that there is ONE boss on the boat and when he speaks it's to give calls. I will have to listen to Ineos but I am sure Ben is the only one to decide after listening to Giles.

On AM it seems very polite, there are questions, advices, but it does not look that there is a real boss.

BTW, we can recognize a boss to the sound of the voice and its assertiveness, a leader decides and command with authority, not by being nice.

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everyone on AM thought the left gate was the better option except for one voice (not DB) that said it was going to be a 'difficult' manoeuvre (remember when ETNZ tried it against AM and fell off the foils). no one saw (or failed to mension) the massive wind shift that nailed them as they went into that maneuver

there is no way you can compare AM and LR going around that mark a minute later ... AM tacked on the mark at race pace 5knots+ faster and running a racing line. LR went way past the mark knowing the race was abandoned and they could take whatever line was comfortable for them ... VMG meant nothing

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17 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

everyone on AM thought the left gate was the better option except for one voice (not DB) that said it was going to be a 'difficult' manoeuvre (remember when ETNZ tried it against AM and fell off the foils). no one saw (or failed to mension) the massive wind shift that nailed them as they went into that maneuver

there is no way you can compare AM and LR going around that mark a minute later ... AM tacked on the mark at race pace 5knots+ faster and running a racing line. LR went way past the mark knowing the race was abandoned and they could take whatever line was comfortable for them ... VMG meant nothing

Oh, I was not trying to compare the conditions but to compare the communication and leadership on the boats.

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Patriot is flawed boat, its cross section is like martini glass, while other teams have more rounded cross section. This martini glass flatnes really isnt ideal since flat panels are structuraly less stiff than rounded, especially in case of landing flat on water like they did its prety obvious that those thin panels take lots of force. Since force is transfered through internal ribs/structure the weak points are in between those two. That also explains that square shapped hole. There was part that fell off the boat, it looks twisted. Perhaps hole as it is was created that one of the corners of this hole gave way, i suppose upper left, there it twisted inwards, but since panel has some resistance and rushing water at high speeds is destructive it folded the plate and tore it away. I did some 3D model of stages, but that happened in instant. It would also explain strange folded shape of missing part that floated behind. Also Terry believes it was the brute force of impact that guilioutined plate away from surrounding structure.

1240327-03.thumb.jpeg.8c0819f2c70533db8261555b417682bdb.jpg

am1sm.jpg.d4d46b066e8f27ad659c7986aac737bc.jpg

Hole.jpg

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8 hours ago, weta27 said:

Immediately after the freeze, the video actually shows the carbon shards popping off around the hole.

In the discussion about who called what coming into the mark, Dean's un-answered question can be explained by Hutchinson's comms being down, as mentioned several times by Kenny Read a little earlier. TH may have answered but we don't hear it and DB probably didn't either.

Maybe the comms issue disrupted the usual decision-making process.

Also excruciating to watch the cockpit cam with DB jammed under the main, hard against the side, trying to steer the boat and seeing it all slowly coming over on top of him.

The only comment I make re TH’s lack of comms when Read continued to comment on that during the race is that is hard to say anything if your lips aren’t moving! 

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2 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Well that scuttles the battery bullshit.

I wouldn't own up to anything that might impugn my boat-builders' workmanship either....

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10 minutes ago, Indio said:

I wouldn't own up to anything that might impugn my boat-builders' workmanship either....

Don't worry, Mozzy will be along with a new video. It'll be take two of what really happened........

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INEOS and LR should just refuse to race on Friday. It makes no difference anyway. But if they capsize like AM did, they might end up in the same situation.

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

INEOS and LR should just refuse to race on Friday. It makes no difference anyway. But if they capsize like AM did, they might end up in the same situation.

Can't LR still win the RR stage if they beat ineos twice?

Either way, the practice is invaluable

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16 minutes ago, crashtack said:

Can't LR still win the RR stage if they beat ineos twice?

Either way, the practice is invaluable

No, they can't. They can only tie. Ineos can be undefeated, but if LR beats Ineos in both races, they tie with Ineos, then it comes down to the tie breaker.

Surely, after the near catastrophic capsize of AM, it makes more sense to save the equipment and stay in the shed.

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6 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

No, they can't. They can only tie. Ineos can be undefeated, but if LR beats Ineos in both races, they tie with Ineos, then it comes down to the tie breaker.

But if they win those 2 races, they win the tiebreaker.

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15 minutes ago, nroose said:

But if they win those 2 races, they win the tiebreaker.

If they get 2 points by beating INEOS twice, and pick up 2 points automatically from AM not competing, thats 4 points, plus the two they have, putting them on a maximum of 6 points. Thats if by some miracle they can beat INEOS, something they haven't done yet.

INEOS picks up 2 points automatically from AM not starting, so they start on 6 points, as they already have 4 points now.

If both teams don't race, the score will end up at 6-4 to INEOS, putting INEOS straight through to the Prada Cup final and Luna Rossa in 2nd place, without even leaving the shed. The same scenario it is now. They gain nothing from racing, but they can certainly do catastrophic damage to the campaign by risking it.

 

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Crikey help I’m confused if the Frackers beat the Handbags once more don’t they go straight to the Prada Cup finals leaving the Handbags to face Amway if they front in the semi finals.

 

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9 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

is there any evidence of actual divers working on the rescue operation?

All I saw were AM crew members getting in the water to put the fothering in place. I'd be surprised if they had access at that moment to tools to cut carbon underwater

 

Screenshot_20210118-200025_Gallery.jpg

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1 minute ago, Priscilla said:

Crikey help I’m confused if the Frackers beat the Handbags once more don’t they go straight to the Prada Cup finals leaving the Handbags to face Amway if they front in the semi finals.

 

Is the format scrapped now? No more RR format including AM, so its just a straight shootout winner takes all between INEOS and LR? 

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7 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

If they get 2 points by beating INEOS twice, and pick up 2 points automatically from AM not competing, thats 4 points, plus the two they have, putting them on a maximum of 6 points. Thats if by some miracle they can beat INEOS, something they haven't done yet.

INEOS picks up 2 points automatically from AM not starting, so they start on 6 points, as they already have 4 points now.

If both teams don't race, the score will end up at 6-4 to INEOS, putting INEOS straight through to the Prada Cup final and Luna Rossa in 2nd place, without even leaving the shed. The same scenario it is now. They gain nothing from racing, but they can certainly do catastrophic damage to the campaign by risking it.

 

The point was that there is the possibility that LR would beat INEOS in 2 races, and then LR would get the bye to the finals. That's the only point. It's not likely. It's not the same as if they don't race. If they don't race, then LR and AM would be in the semifinals and INEOS would get the bye. The premise is that the bye is valuable. I don't have any idea if it's more advantageous to be in the semis or get the bye. But the point is that LR could get the bye if AM doesn't race and LR beat INEOS twice.

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12 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

If they get 2 points by beating INEOS twice, and pick up 2 points automatically from AM not competing, thats 4 points, plus the two they have, putting them on a maximum of 6 points. Thats if by some miracle they can beat INEOS, something they haven't done yet.

INEOS picks up 2 points automatically from AM not starting, so they start on 6 points, as they already have 4 points now.

If both teams don't race, the score will end up at 6-4 to INEOS, putting INEOS straight through to the Prada Cup final and Luna Rossa in 2nd place, without even leaving the shed. The same scenario it is now. They gain nothing from racing, but they can certainly do catastrophic damage to the campaign by risking it.

 

LR still has an opportunity to advance to win the RR stage, not a chance they're staying in.

Also, what a silly argument. These syndicates came here to race. Even if the result couldn't be changed, they gain a whole lot more by being out on the water racing than sitting on land (which is presumably why they've spent hundreds of days practicing on the water). I bet anything that ETNZ would much rather be racing now instead of spectating.

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9 minutes ago, nroose said:

The point was that there is the possibility that LR would beat INEOS in 2 races, and then LR would get the bye to the finals. That's the only point. It's not likely. It's not the same as if they don't race. If they don't race, then LR and AM would be in the semifinals and INEOS would get the bye. The premise is that the bye is valuable. I don't have any idea if it's more advantageous to be in the semis or get the bye. But the point is that LR could get the bye if AM doesn't race and LR beat INEOS twice.

Okay, the possibility of LR beating INEOS twice, is all well and good, but how does that change anything? That just puts them on equal points?

There is only 4 points available max to each team during the RR right? Because each team races each other twice.

So, if LR beats INEOS twice, they only gain 2 points from those two wins, which puts them on 4 points. Add to that the 2 automatic points from AM not starting, makes 6 points. 2+4 = 6.

INEOS starts on 4 points. They gain 2 points automatically from AM not starting right? So they start on 6 points before even sailing.

The worst case scenario for INEOS and the best case scenario for LR is they tie on 6 points each right?

LR need to beat INEOS, INEOS don't need to beat LR.

 

 

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57 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

I see they might be changing the race shed for the next series of round robbin.

https://www.americascup.com/en/results

 

I think that simply reflects that AM may not be racing. Not that ineos vs Prada will not proceed. Do you see more?

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5 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Well that scuttles the battery bullshit.

I glad of that otherwise it would be "Inside the Environment"

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27 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Okay, the possibility of LR beating INEOS twice, is all well and good, but how does that change anything? That just puts them on equal points?

There is only 4 points available max to each team during the RR right? Because each team races each other twice.

So, if LR beats INEOS twice, they only gain 2 points from those two wins, which puts them on 4 points. Add to that the 2 automatic points from AM not starting, makes 6 points. 2+4 = 6.

INEOS starts on 4 points. They gain 2 points automatically from AM not starting right? So they start on 6 points before even sailing.

The worst case scenario for INEOS and the best case scenario for LR is they tie on 6 points each right?

LR need to beat INEOS, INEOS don't need to beat LR.

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Is the format scrapped now? No more RR format including AM, so its just a straight shootout winner takes all between INEOS and LR? 

Here is my confusion the Handbags will with the gifted points of a Amway no show but consecutive wins over the Frackers fall short of proceeding directly to the Prada finals and will face a resurrected Amway in the semi finals where the Frackers only need to secure one win over the Handbags to progress directly the finals.

What happens if both are tied and Amway rises from the dead.

The semis are not dead and gone until Amway is a no show.

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1 minute ago, Priscilla said:

 

Here is my confusion the Handbags will with the gifted point of a Amway no show but consecutive wins over the Frackers fall short of of proceeding directly to the Prada finals and will face a resurrected Amway in the semi finals where the Frackers only need to secure one win over the Handbags to progress directly the finals.

The semis are not dead and gone until Amway is a no show. 

The team with the highest points out of the RR stage goes directly to the final. They don't need to sail a semi if they win the RR stage. Its only the bottom 2 that race off in a semi final to see who goes through to the final.

Seems confusing and almost unfair that the Brits are already 2 wins and 2 points up on the Italians but still need to beat them one more time to go through.

Surely it should be the other way around? LR should need 3 wins against INEOS to go through.

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I think its not a option to choose not to race as it would open you up to being protested and kicked out of the Prada Cup. Will be interesting to see how that affects AM. Rules say you have to start every race. Otherwise people wouldn't choose to not participate in the pre regattas that didn't end up happening.

 

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Someone, sorry can’t recall who, quoted chapter and verse on Prada Cup scoring. Assuming AM does not race again in the RR it is very simple. Ineos has 4 points, LR has two. If LR wins both remains races they would be tied 4-4. Count the extra wins against AM if you want but that’s irrelevant. Then as is usual in sailing, the winner of the final race wins the series I.e. LR. They then go directly to the final. So at least one more race will go ahead, because LR wants the win and  Ineos wants to stop them. Only if AM pulls out entirely by Friday does that change.

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36 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Okay, the possibility of LR beating INEOS twice, is all well and good, but how does that change anything? That just puts them on equal points?

There is only 4 points available max to each team during the RR right? Because each team races each other twice.

So, if LR beats INEOS twice, they only gain 2 points from those two wins, which puts them on 4 points. Add to that the 2 automatic points from AM not starting, makes 6 points. 2+4 = 6.

INEOS starts on 4 points. They gain 2 points automatically from AM not starting right? So they start on 6 points before even sailing.

The worst case scenario for INEOS and the best case scenario for LR is they tie on 6 points each right?

LR need to beat INEOS, INEOS don't need to beat LR.

 

 

Assuming LR beats INEOS twice (Not a very confident assumption...) They end up on equal points. Equal point goes to tiebreak. Tiebreak seems to be most recent head to head race, so it would go to LR. So, assuming AM can make it to the semi, INEOS would have to beat AM in the semi. But the thing is, the boats that race in the semis get more races. The boat that gets the bye gets more practice/mods. Not sure which is best.

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6 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

 It is clear that the rudder lost tractions and caused the rest, but why did it lose grip ?

Look at the video,  minimal rudder immersion

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The fairest thing to do would be for LR and INEOS to race this weekend, as scheduled, let the outcome of those races be what it is, start the semi's as scheduled but penalise AM 2 points in the semi's.

The stakes are still sky high (literally) for the other teams as well.

 

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Man, that surely gives LR an advantage. INEOS has already beaten them twice, but if LR beat INEOS twice they go through.

 

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Just caught up on TH's press conference.

Well, speculating on the battery theory was fun while it lasted :D 

I find it quite incredible that local pressure on the section of the hull was enough to make such a clean looking guillotine cut.

TH made a point that if the hull fell in straight on, without any heel, that would have been a different story.

Quite incredible that the slam affected only of the hull skin sections in such a drastic way!

 

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26 minutes ago, Kanting_Kid said:

I think its not a option to choose not to race as it would open you up to being protested and kicked out of the Prada Cup. Will be interesting to see how that affects AM. Rules say you have to start every race. Otherwise people wouldn't choose to not participate in the pre regattas that didn't end up happening.

 

LR chose not to sail in the first RR in San Francisco. ETNZ raced twice by themselves as LR sat the races out, so no real reason that these teams can't do the same. AM have decided (obviously) this week is out of the question.

 

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What if LR & GB race and GB have a technical issue and lose the race to LR.  

GB are also then unable to make the start of the next race against AM? (2 DNS - AM & GB)

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Given the mess we’ve seen pretty much everyone make of the start at some stage I’d be starting a dead race just for the forced timing at the start.  Training where you control the watch is never the same.

what we will potentially see is the teams  rolling out some extra upgrades to test now they know it can’t result in them missing the final if it’s shit.

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Patriot... why do Americans always choose these pathetic names? It seems like if you don’t wave the flag all day long you’re considered an outcast.
 

It’s just a shame and embarrassing. 

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2 minutes ago, Only Fools Rush In said:

Patriot... why do Americans always choose these pathetic names? It seems like if you don’t wave the flag all day long you’re considered an outcast.
 

It’s just a shame and embarrassing. 

You win dumbest comment of the day. Congrats!

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

I think that simply reflects that AM may not be racing. Not that ineos vs Prada will not proceed. Do you see more?

Don't see enough, unfortunately.  

If they've closed the sched it implies change which might need all parties to agree and unanimous agreement might not be a foregone conclusion. Where there's change there's opportunity. I haven't read the rules though - cant be arsed these days.

 

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39 minutes ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

Just caught up on TH's press conference.

Well, speculating on the battery theory was fun while it lasted :D 

I find it quite incredible that local pressure on the section of the hull was enough to make such a clean looking guillotine cut.

TH made a point that if the hull fell in straight on, without any heel, that would have been a different story.

Quite incredible that the slam affected only of the hull skin sections in such a drastic way!

 

We don't have any clear evidence that there isn't significant structural damage as well.

TH stated that the FCS was "done", and that they would transfer the FCS from Defiant. If it were only electronics, I don't think they'd be moving the FCS. So if there's mechanical issues with it now, there must be structural problems - that's a very strong part of the boat's design I'd guess.

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1 minute ago, chesirecat said:

On the original sched AM would be a DNS and the other team would still have to pass the start line until called by the RO they could stop racing. If they've closed the sched it implies change which might need all parties to agree and unanimous agreement might not be a foregone conclusion. Where there's change there's opportunity. I haven't read the rules though - cant be arsed these days.

Doubt the rules covers it but also have better things to do than search. But I don't think the Great TV God would smile on showing four out of six races where only one boat crosses the line. 

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1 minute ago, dogwatch said:

Doubt the rules covers it but also have better things to do than search. But I don't think the Great TV God would smile on showing four out of six races where only one boat crosses the line. 

They certainly wouldn't and now you mention it they could be in talks right now.

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I'm not sure wht this round robin is causing so much confusion

If LR beat UK twice then they end on equal wins, The tie break is the results from the regatta before Christmas, so Ineos would lose.

I don't see why that is unfair (and I'm a Brit) because then LR and UK would have beaten each other twice (and each beaten AM twice plus 2 givemes).

So UK only need to win once.

If they do that in the first race then I'm not sure they will bother. Contrary to what someone else said, I think both remaining boats will have got enough data from racing by then. I think they might well head back to the shed for the next round of updates (and quite possibly an ultra-sound check and definitely a thorough review of the AM incident and how it might relate to them)

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7 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

If LR beat UK twice then they end on equal wins, The tie break is the results from the regatta before Christmas, so Ineos would lose.

I agree they would lose but not for that reason. Several pages back in this thread, someone quoted the scoring process for the Prada Cup and it was normal sailing tie-break practice, winner of last race wins. Nothing to do with results in a different regatta entirely. Why do you think the Xmas Regatta comes into it?

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Here we go, originally posted by RobG. Clause b is the relevant one. 

 

 

From: The WORLD SAILING RACING RULES of SAILING AMERICA’S CUP EDITION, Version 3.02

A3 TIES
A3.1 Breaking a tie in a Round-Robin Stage
Ties between two or more competitors in a round-robin stage shall be broken by the
following methods, in order, until all ties are broken. When one or more ties are only
partially broken, rules A3.1(a) to A3.1(f) shall be reapplied to them. Ties shall be decided in
favour of the competitor(s) who
(a) placed in order, has the highest score in the matches between the tied competitors;
(b) when the tie is between two competitors, has won the last match between the two
competitors;

(c) has the most points against the Competitor placed highest in the round-robin stage or,
if necessary, second highest, and so on until the tie is broken. When two separate ties
have to be resolved but the resolution of each depends upon resolving the other, the
following principles shall be used in the rule A3.1(c) procedure:
(1) the higher-place tie shall be resolved before the lower- place tie, and
(2) all the competitors in the lower-place tie shall be treated as a single competitor
for the purposes of rule A3.1(c).

(d) wins the second race in the following sail-off process amongst the three competitors:
The highest place Challenger based on relative places of the Challengers in the
ACWS regatta (not including the Christmas Race) progresses to the sail-off second
race. If there is no highest place Challenger, the winner of a draw progresses to the
sail-off second race. The other two competitors race each other and the winner
progresses to the sail-off second race.
The winner of the second race is then the top ranked competitor. The winner of the
first race, or the highest place after A3.1 is applied, is then the second ranked
competitor;
(e) if one or both races of the sail-off process described in rule A3.1(d) are not scored,
then rule A3.1 is used to break the tie in each applicable race of the sail-off process
that was not scored.
(f) between two competitors, has the highest place Challenger based on relative places
of the Challengers in the ACWS regatta (not including the Christmas Race), or the
winner of a draw if there is no highest place Challenger;

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IDK about you guys, but I miss Te Kooti saying that the cause of the AM problems is a....Taniwha!

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Lets hear it for Hutch's masterclass at the presser. Magnus nails it..

Leadership

It’s snowing in Madrid. In America, a 78 year old is about to become, this week, the most powerful man on the planet. Vast swathes of Europe are under the strictest stay at home lockdown. The postponed Tokyo Olympics is looking like being cancelled. And in this banzai crazy 2021, the British Team is leading the standings in the America’s Cup. A writer of fiction simply couldn’t make it up.

210118_sejr_americanmagic_70319-1024x102 © Sailing Energy / American Magic

So whilst the headlines this week should all be about the remarkable, unbelievable almost, turnaround of Ben Ainslie and Team Ineos, it’s the Americans that have stolen the headlines. The ‘Comeback Cup’ as this cycle is now being nicknamed is breathless drama. Blink and you miss everything. The re-build of American Magic is now the story and it’s a race against time.

As crisis communications goes, the Americans have played a blinder. Their onshore communications have been peerless – that’s what happens when you hire brilliant comms experts who have been this way before, really know sailing and totally understand the Cup.

And their Team Principal has just delivered a masterclass of a press conference (see below) that should be shown to aspiring CEOs doing MBA courses at every Business School in America. Terry Hutchinson fronted the media, clearly shattered from the events of Sunday, and showed why he is held in such esteem not only in the sport but also by his billionaire backers and the New York Yacht Club. It was pure class.

201217_sejr_americanmagic_41722-1024x102 © Sailing Energy / American Magic

Terry is the model CEO. No nonsense, gave it straight and true and direct from the heart. The raw emotion was there for all to see when he talked about the sportsmanship that the Magic Team had been on the receiving end of and his gratitude to everyone that helped was real and heartfelt. We also got a fascinating insight into the levels that Grant Dalton is willing to go to get the Americans back on the water. In short, the horses are not being spared. Those Team New Zealand boatbuilders who had been stood back from the front line are right back at 24 hour shifts to get Patriot back in business. Brilliant.

1610945978308.jpg?w=1024 ©Ricky Wilson / Stuff.co.nz

And the Magic team must be thanking their lucky stars that the Cup is in Auckland. One of the by-products that is oft-overlooked of Kiwi success in the event over the years is the incredible boat-building and specialist carbon fibre companies that have sprung up around the Cup. Auckland was always known as a super-yacht town but in recent years the pivot towards carbon componentry and high-spec carbon works has produced world-class specialists. It’s a beating, thriving hive of specialism right on the doorstep. Magic will be boosting the local economy significantly in the next few days and the Kiwis will support them every step of the way.

And as for the under-fire Dean Barker, who has received a barrage of online abuse, Hutchinson was quick to support and offer his total confidence. Whilst the onboard microphones picked up Paul Goodison warning of the complexity of the tack-peel off at that top mark just ahead of the capsize, what we didn’t hear was the collective decision taken onboard by Terry, Dean and Andrew Campbell.

Rushing to hang Deano out to dry is harsh. Demanding that he’s replaced is just idiotic. Replacing a helmsman at this stage of the game would not only be foolhardy but reckless as these boats are totally unforgiving and it would be akin to gambling with the lives of the other crew members. In short, it ain’t happening. And Terry gave it straight. Both barrels on that one. Full confidence in a man that he describes as having “ice in his veins”. Good to hear. This is a team effort. They win as a team, they lose as a team and they come through adversity as a team.

Patriot is now, thankfully, safe in the shed and undergoing surgery. And the message from the Magic crew is essentially that it could be a lot worse. It’s going to be a gargantuan effort to get back on the water and racing at the highest level in the Prada Cup semi-final but with a guy like Terry, who quite frankly you would run through walls for, there is every confidence that not only will they be back out there but mark my words, they will be as competitive as hell.

The story of this America’s Cup is yet to be told. Can you imagine if they won it from here?

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4 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Don't worry, Mozzy will be along with a new video. It'll be take two of what really happened........

To be honest, I don't think there is anything I would change about my analysis, now we have the word from Terry. The sail gets caught up on the runner and as a result they can't twist off the sail and lose power higher up. From what Terry is saying the runner may have been completely eased, but they just didn't have any more range... but the real question is the decision that ended up with them doing a tack bear away on the face of the biggest gust of the race, which was clearly visible. 

Main trimmer advises the right hand turn. Dean ultimately overrules and goes left, which Terry admits is a far harder manoeuvre (he pretty much admits the bear away then easy gybe would have been fine). One might even say impossible, if their runner was completely eased and main completely eased. 

I think Terry suggesting the severity of the gust being a bit of bad luck is probably just soothing the wound for his team. The gust was clearly visible, in the video. They were easing main like crazy before the tack. It wasn't as if they hadn't seen it. 

The bear away gybe was the smarter move, that's exactly what Paul Goodison called, Dean Barker overruled his advice and went for the tack bear away.

From the presser I also think it's interesting how much weight Andrew Campbells call of 'very light' on the other side was given. Because, that's some way before the decision was made (so I pretty sure the breeze had filled across the entire course), and again, to get down the course you need to bear away, and the guy with the job of handling the power is telling you go for a bear away then gybe. 

I also don't think you can compare Luna Rossa's tack bear away in the way Terry, or some in this thread are. The fact that luna rossa went round the same mark isn't really here nor there in terms of what was right call for AM. In fact, Bruni is saying the better option for them is to bear away (right gate). It's only once AM capsize that they slow it down do an easy tack, get her up to speed (sailing way wide and do a steady bear away). 

But, the thing I love, is we're talking about crew roles \ decision making and team co-ordination. Whether you sail a 5knot shit box, or a skiff, we've all had instances where helms deviate and overrule (it's their job), or key crew are ignored in the heat of the movement, and it all goes to shit... this is the sailing we recognise and it's great for the event.

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1 hour ago, MaxHugen said:

We don't have any clear evidence that there isn't significant structural damage as well.

TH stated that the FCS was "done", and that they would transfer the FCS from Defiant. If it were only electronics, I don't think they'd be moving the FCS. So if there's mechanical issues with it now, there must be structural problems - that's a very strong part of the boat's design I'd guess.

He was quite coy about details - they probably need more time to assess the damage in more detail. 

My understanding of his comments on FCS was that all electronics need to be swapped out, but the hydraulic piping, hydraulic cylinders and probably also supporting structure was fine. 

I guess it's possible that on top of the hull panel shearing through upon slam impact, the longitudinal and transverse stiffening structure could have suffered damage. 

A recent example was damage on Hugo Boss which Alex Thomson tried to reinforce while in the South Atlantic! 

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Just now, MastaVonBlasta said:

He was quite coy about details - they probably need more time to assess the damage in more detail. 

My understanding of his comments on FCS was that all electronics need to be swapped out, but the hydraulic piping, hydraulic cylinders and probably also supporting structure was fine. 

I guess it's possible that on top of the hull panel shearing through upon slam impact, the longitudinal and transverse stiffening structure could have suffered damage. 

A recent example was damage on Hugo Boss which Alex Thomson tried to reinforce while in the South Atlantic! 

Yep, good example... the engineers underestimated the slamming forces on Thomson's boat, which resulted in structural component failure. His boat wasn't the only one, I think others suffered damage for the same reason.

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I don't get why people think LR and Ineos don't want to race. One of the advantages of the challenge series is perfecting your racing skills,  understanding the race course,  making incremental improvements. By not racing you give the advantage to NZ.

 

My thoughts before the AM capsize, were in some ways winning the RR is disadvantageous- less time in racing mode,  although offset against the opportunity to improve the boat. This hasn't changed, might be better to beat up on a recovering AM and then meet your opponent in the Prada final battle tuned. 

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3 hours ago, dogwatch said:

when the tie is between two competitors, has won the last match between the two
competitors;

Right so... ITUK need to get to 7 points in the series to go through. They have been gifted two. Had AM stayed in ITUK could theoretically have got through with 5 if LR vs AM drawn 2-2 over the course of 4 RRS. At least if AM had won yesterday they would only have needed 6 but at the start of the comp they needed 7 to guarantee first and still do, ie one more. 

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3 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

To be honest, I don't think there is anything I would change about my analysis, now we have the word from Terry. The sail gets caught up on the runner and as a result they can't twist off the sail and lose power higher up. From what Terry is saying the runner may have been completely eased, but they just didn't have any more range... but the real question is the decision that ended up with them doing a tack bear away on the face of the biggest gust of the race, which was clearly visible. 

I think Terry was saying that the runner was not the cause, but that it probably didn't help.   I think he was suggesting that the problem was really that before the bear away they were already on max traveller, which was probably a hint that things were not right - ie they were not going fast enough to bring the apparent forward.    So when they did go down, there was no more traveller to be had, leaving only main sheet... but with the runner either not fully eased (or perhaps just at a small max ease), so they couldn't de-power further.

Having the gust hit whilst they were not at full speed also didn't help.

With 20:20 hindsight, perhaps they should have stayed in the reach (or above) until: a) gust passed; b) max speed, and then go down.  So the difficulty of the tack and bear away is that the tack slows the boat more and thus giving them bigger AWAs to deal with.

 

 

 

 

 

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What I understood from the runner bit on the presser, is that they have some settings for each maneuver so the runner was eased to that setting, not that it was completely eased. Then again, English not my native tongue so I could have got it wrong.

What I did get is that they thought going for the safest maneuver could have ended in a touchdown from very light conditions and they opted for the winning move, not the safest move. And that's what you have to do to win. I they had chosen the safe side and wind dropped to non foiling conditions all couch sailing experts here would have ripped them apart too, just like they did with BA three weeks ago.

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7 hours ago, kenergy said:

 

Screenshot_20210118-200025_Gallery.jpg

<donald trump modus ON> is this evidence ? I see no diver ?  Who sees a diver ? Not me? I see great people, doing great things but no diver. No, there is no diver, that diver is in an alternative reality.</donald trump modus OFF>

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4 hours ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

He was quite coy about details - they probably need more time to assess the damage in more detail. 

My understanding of his comments on FCS was that all electronics need to be swapped out, but the hydraulic piping, hydraulic cylinders and probably also supporting structure was fine. 

I guess it's possible that on top of the hull panel shearing through upon slam impact, the longitudinal and transverse stiffening structure could have suffered damage. 

A recent example was damage on Hugo Boss which Alex Thomson tried to reinforce while in the South Atlantic! 

I heard him say they were putting the canting system from Defiant on Patriot at 16:10 of video above.

Electronics will all be replaced along with wiring.

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   6 hours ago,  Only Fools Rush In said: 

Patriot... why do Americans always choose these pathetic names? It seems like if you don’t wave the flag all day long you’re considered an outcast.
 

It’s just a shame and embarrassing. 

|   You win dumbest comment of the day. Congrats!

 

Woehahahahaha but he is right.... America! Fuck yeah

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Give AM Te Kahu to play in the RR with the others.... 

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13 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Oh, I was not trying to compare the conditions but to compare the communication and leadership on the boats.

I'm still trying to figure out why people are saying the communication leadership was bad

3 voices including TH and DB want the left mark. someone says twice it will be a difficult maneuver bringing the confusion (rather than getting his ass to the side of the boat he should be on if my guess of the voice is correct) he doesn't say 'i strongly recommend you reconsider the mark choice as I can see a massive fucking squall that will flatten us over to the left!!!!'

DB does not change his mind last second when someone says 100m and sticks with plan A (the agreed faster plan) therefore doesnt add more pressure to the situation or any confusion

I'm not a DB fan but he doesn't deserve this criticism ... are we going to see people calling for PB's head if etnz's rudder lets go (again)?

 

what my observations of all helmsman is: watch the wheel in their hands throughout the races and mark rounding ... AM's wheel looks a lot more lively (more feedback) than the others. this isn't a DB issue, its a design balance issue, their boat is closer to their edge

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9 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Here we go, originally posted by RobG. Clause b is the relevant one. 

 

 

From: The WORLD SAILING RACING RULES of SAILING AMERICA’S CUP EDITION, Version 3.02

A3 TIES
A3.1 Breaking a tie in a Round-Robin Stage
Ties between two or more competitors in a round-robin stage shall be broken by the
following methods, in order, until all ties are broken. When one or more ties are only
partially broken, rules A3.1(a) to A3.1(f) shall be reapplied to them. Ties shall be decided in
favour of the competitor(s) who
(a) placed in order, has the highest score in the matches between the tied competitors;
(b) when the tie is between two competitors, has won the last match between the two
competitors;

(c) has the most points against the Competitor placed highest in the round-robin stage or,
if necessary, second highest, and so on until the tie is broken. When two separate ties
have to be resolved but the resolution of each depends upon resolving the other, the
following principles shall be used in the rule A3.1(c) procedure:
(1) the higher-place tie shall be resolved before the lower- place tie, and
(2) all the competitors in the lower-place tie shall be treated as a single competitor
for the purposes of rule A3.1(c).

(d) wins the second race in the following sail-off process amongst the three competitors:
The highest place Challenger based on relative places of the Challengers in the
ACWS regatta (not including the Christmas Race) progresses to the sail-off second
race. If there is no highest place Challenger, the winner of a draw progresses to the
sail-off second race. The other two competitors race each other and the winner
progresses to the sail-off second race.
The winner of the second race is then the top ranked competitor. The winner of the
first race, or the highest place after A3.1 is applied, is then the second ranked
competitor;
(e) if one or both races of the sail-off process described in rule A3.1(d) are not scored,
then rule A3.1 is used to break the tie in each applicable race of the sail-off process
that was not scored.
(f) between two competitors, has the highest place Challenger based on relative places
of the Challengers in the ACWS regatta (not including the Christmas Race), or the
winner of a draw if there is no highest place Challenger;

Just to be pedantic (or in case it becomes relevant later): Clause A. is relevant first. In this (hypothetical) case using A. leaves a 2/2 tie - so only now do we go to B. :D

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22 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

I'm still trying to figure out why people are saying the communication leadership was bad

 3 voices including TH and DB want the left mark. someone says twice it will be a difficult maneuver bringing the confusion (rather than getting his ass to the side of the boat he should be on if my guess of the voice is correct) he doesn't say 'i strongly recommend you reconsider the mark choice as I can see a massive fucking squall that will flatten us over to the left!!!!'

DB does not change his mind last second when someone says 100m and sticks with plan A (the agreed faster plan) therefore doesnt add more pressure to the situation or any confusion

I'm not a DB fan but he doesn't deserve this criticism ... are we going to see people calling for PB's head if etnz's rudder lets go (again)?

 

what my observations of all helmsman is: watch the wheel in their hands throughout the races and mark rounding ... AM's wheel looks a lot more lively (more feedback) than the others. this isn't a DB issue, its a design balance issue, their boat is closer to their edge

The criticism is not about one individual it is about the team, their systems and the rearguard setup.  There doesn't seem to be a chain of command - seems more like a committee.  One of the 3 has his head down grinding.  The conversation is often vague and inconclusive.  It needs to be authoritative, succinct and clear like INEOS and LR.

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4 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

The criticism is not about one individual it is about the team, their systems and the rearguard setup.  There doesn't seem to be a chain of command - seems more like a committee.  One of the 3 has his head down grinding.  The conversation is often vague and inconclusive.  It needs to be authoritative, succinct and clear like INEOS and LR.

Much of the criticism is in fact about DB, some highly personal. But that's the SAAC way.

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8 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Much of the criticism is in fact about DB, some highly personal. But that's the SAAC way.

I'll readily admit that I don't rate Barker in the same league as Ainslie, Spithall, Bruno or Burling.  But saying he choked on Sunday is just puerile crap.  He went for the higher risk throat choker and in my opinion team work let him down.  I don't believe he had all the right information or the correct information.  I'm not sure but his view of that part of the course may have been obscured.

The afterguard on AM need to sort their shit out.  In my opinion get Hutchinson out of there and let him do the on-shore spin.  Let's face it his most recent sailing achievements are on monohull keel boats that are akin to Gin Palaces that the only time you get wet is when it rains and someone forgot to put up the bimini! 

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1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

 In my opinion get Hutchinson out of there and let him do the on-shore spin.

My worthless opinion is the same. 

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5 hours ago, chuso007 said:

What I understood from the runner bit on the presser, is that they have some settings for each maneuver so the runner was eased to that setting, not that it was completely eased. Then again, English not my native tongue so I could have got it wrong.

What I did get is that they thought going for the safest maneuver could have ended in a touchdown from very light conditions and they opted for the winning move, not the safest move. And that's what you have to do to win. I they had chosen the safe side and wind dropped to non foiling conditions all couch sailing experts here would have ripped them apart too, just like they did with BA three weeks ago.

Hey your english comprehension is good, you are correct. The problem for a few folk on the forum, is they are trying to apply the rules / physics of a 4knsb to apparent wind boats. In this situation the sail handling is very different. 

As someone else pointed out, in an ideal world, they "may" have been safer if they extended after the tack, build speed, and then complete the bearaway / gybe, but don't forget they are constrained by a quite close boundary at those speeds.

My question about the whole maneuver is could the flight controller have kept the boat more in the water, so that the skipper didn't lose the rudder. But I suspect there is a fairly significant righting moment trade off when you reduce the lifting force on the in water foil.

 

 

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Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere - but are they using negative lift on the windward foil during the bare away?

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To all you whiners and moaners, all you people who complained about Dalton and ETNZ being unfair. Time to shut the hell up. Dalton has offered his teams assistance with anything the AM team needs to get back on the water. This after they along with the other teams and emergency responders helped keep Patriot from a quick trip to the bottom of the Waitemata. The assistance rendered by ETNZ is more than they were offered following their capsize in Bermuda. The only team willing to help them out in Bermuda was Ainslies team.

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I'll readily admit that I don't rate Barker in the same league as Ainslie, Spithall, Bruno or Burling.  But saying he choked on Sunday is just puerile crap.  He went for the higher risk throat choker and in my opinion team work let him down.  I don't believe he had all the right information or the correct information.  I'm not sure but his view of that part of the course may have been obscured.

The afterguard on AM need to sort their shit out.  In my opinion get Hutchinson out of there and let him do the on-shore spin.  Let's face it his most recent sailing achievements are on monohull keel boats that are akin to Gin Palaces that the only time you get wet is when it rains and someone forgot to put up the bimini! 

You would think if you didn’t have clear, concise info regarding such a risky manoeuvre, you would at least think twice about doing it. Especially considering the warning given by Goodison leading up to it. If the only clear information you had was a warning as to how difficult the manoeuvre would be, you’d want to go the safer route and preserve your boat and crew. They had a big enough lead that they could have potentially spent some of it to take the other mark. The bigger question is why the hell did they wait until they were almost on top of the mark to decide what they were going to do? Those questions and that decision should’ve been made after rounding the previous mark.

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The bigger question is why the hell did they wait until they were almost on top of the mark to decide what they were going to do? Those questions and that decision should’ve been made after rounding the previous mark.

I don't agree with regard to making the decision at the previous mark.  However at the speed these boats travel a decision could have been made half way down.  Although it isn't clear what the full communication was (talk of off boat feed being compromised) what I have listened to didn't sound very authoritative.  

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We have seen AM training and performing well out in gusty conditions for a while already. The squall that hit them was particularly sudden and nasty, TH is NOT going to make sudden personnel changes! 

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24 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The bigger question is why the hell did they wait until they were almost on top of the mark to decide what they were going to do? Those questions and that decision should’ve been made after rounding the previous mark.

you are substituting your own reality with what actually happened ... they were discussing that all the way up that leg, they were all in agreeance that the left side was favoured. there was only one voice that concern of the 'difficulty' of the manoeuvre. strategically the left mark was going to put them in the best position on the course

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52 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

We have seen AM training and performing well out in gusty conditions for a while already. The squall that hit them was particularly sudden and nasty, TH is NOT going to make sudden personnel changes! 

Sudden and nasty..yes, but also very visible. Any competent sailor would have seen that coming.

On the comms there should have been a call like  " big pressure in 5,4,3.." or similar.

 

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4 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Sudden and nasty..yes, but also very visible.

Haven’t seen a chart of it yet but TH said they went from (something like) 12 knots AWS to 23+ in about 30 secs and the most severe change was very sudden, 18 to 23 in just 3 secs? 

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58 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

 Those questions and that decision should’ve been made after rounding the previous mark.

Sailing with you must be fun, you must have an 6th sense to predict squalls :lol:

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19 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Haven’t seen a chart of it yet but TH said they went from (something like) 12 knots AWS to 23+ in about 30 secs and the most severe change was very sudden, 18 to 23 in just 3 secs? 

I don't know how much sailing you have done, but to guys at this level that gust would have stood out like dog's balls. They should have seen it coming from at least 10 seconds away.

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1 hour ago, cbulger said:

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere - but are they using negative lift on the windward foil during the bare away?

Good question but I think it is illegal?

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1 hour ago, Lickindip said:

you are substituting your own reality with what actually happened ... they were discussing that all the way up that leg, they were all in agreeance that the left side was favoured. there was only one voice that concern of the 'difficulty' of the manoeuvre. strategically the left mark was going to put them in the best position on the course

If you listen to the comms on that leg, there isn't a single call for a lefthand turn. There is a discussion of staying left on the upwind for pressure and a call that the right gate was 100m favoured, but they would have to make sure to get back to the left quickly after the rounding. Dean asks about 40 seconds out from the mark, "Would you still go to the left, even with the tack?". Get's a "100m" as a response, then a comment about it being tight back to the finish. The puff hits, comms get frantic, and the boat looks squirrely. Goodison's instincts kick in, and he suggests the righthand turn, Dean doesn't seem to hear him clearly.

In my opinion, Dean was waiting for someone else to make the call. The right gate was very favoured, and he was considering it but never really got fed all the info to understand the whole picture. Someone on that boat needed to make the "huge puff at the mark" call; if that happens, I think they handle that maneuver differently.

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23 hours ago, Xlot said:

Additional info where? Thanks

Sorry I cannot find it.

It was a video interview.

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the day after the event

AM base had lots of yellow dive bottles sitting out

almost like they were waiting for a refill:o)

dive.jpg

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25 minutes ago, eric e said:

the day after the event

AM base had lots of yellow dive bottles sitting out

almost like they were waiting for a refill:o)

dive.jpg

An LR branded van, maybe there to pick up things they lent for during the boat rescue. 

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Jimmy and Francesco (?) comments here are telling. Two people with eyes on the course and who know something about getting these things around a course. Both would have taken the right gate. Maybe seeing americans on its side has had an influence but still they seem genuine in what they say.

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59 minutes ago, BBA said:

Jimmy and Francesco (?) comments here are telling. Two people with eyes on the course and who know something about getting these things around a course. Both would have taken the right gate. Maybe seeing americans on its side has had an influence but still they seem genuine in what they say.

So from a Prada perspective

- they were about to go 0-2 on the day after losing the lead in race 1, and move into a tie with AM at 1 win each

- they made the same decision as AM, to go left around the gate

- their boat management technique is whoever of their 2 helmsmen talks loudest (spoiler: it's an Australian), just waiting to come to grief in a heated pre-start or rounding

... but thanks to AM breaking something in a gust the pundits are looking at the other boat, which has a couple of old pals that have sailed together for yonks running it.

I'm sure they are very sympathetic to AM but that helped their PR people.

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2 hours ago, Kiwing said:

Good question but I think it is illegal?

Seems all teams are often keeping both arms down for the bare away - I had assumed that this allowed them to put negative lift on the windward foil - this would abviously add drag but also provide extra righting moment - which would have helped AM not capsize

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Sailing with you must be fun, you must have an 6th sense to predict squalls :lol:

Nope, just 2 eyes to see with and 2 ears to listen to people. When you don’t use either of those things you usually end up falling over... funnily enough, that’s what happened to Patriot.

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