tDot

Best use of budget?

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Currently looking for a boat primarily for cruising with wife and 2 toddlers and short handed racing.  I'm looking for something in around 27'-35' or so.  I don't care what the boat rates, I just want it to be a fast boat.  My wife and I are both happy with a gutted interior and the toddlers don't give a shit.  

We have a pretty flexible budget as we have sold our previous boat and are saving to upgrade to a catamaran.  The primary goal is to keep sailing while we save, get the kids into sailing and have fun.  The trick is we want to lose as little money as possible on this transaction and have a boat that is reasonably desirable/easy to sell.  We'll probably keep it for 3-5years.  

I can do most work myself and have a ton of rigging from our 50'er, so not sure how much of that will be useable on this new project. 

Generally does it make more sense to buy a 10-15year old boat and then put new sails, rigging, electronics, etc. on it. Or a newer smaller model with fewer sails, newer rigging,  etc.  that requires less work, but maybe less then optimal gear and will likely be at the end of it's life in 3 years.

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I vote newer boat as yacht design has come a long way, especially for shorthanding, and no amount of money in sails/rigging/electronics will give you the same benefit as a twin rudder setup, further aft stepped mast, modern hull form, etc. 

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1 hour ago, jdazey said:

Corsair?

Tri's make great family boats, the on deck real estate is amazing for kids.

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Trimarans are certainly an option at this point, and I've been researching them extensively and they are probably the most desirable for us, but virtually everything I've looked at will have to be shipped and imported into the country.  I'm also looking at racer/cruiser monohulls. The newest purpose built DH racers, (Sunfast 3300, etc) are appealing, but I'm thinking a new boat is simply too much cash and a unreasonable wait time that we can't afford. If we lived in Europe, it would be an easier option, but we live in BC.

I'm more interested in the fundamental question of where am I likely to see the best performance and lose the least amount of money.  Larger 10-15 year old boat plus go-fast upgrades or smaller 5 year old boat with minimal additional equipment. 

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5 hours ago, Alberta said:

I vote newer boat as yacht design has come a long way, especially for shorthanding, and no amount of money in sails/rigging/electronics will give you the same benefit as a twin rudder setup, further aft stepped mast, modern hull form, etc. 

Thanks.

Are you from Alberta?  My wife works in Edmonton, but we live in BC so we have an ocean to play on.

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My wife is from Edmonton, but we live in California now (and sail doublehanded there)

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Twin rudders are great for ocean sailing in a breeze.  But if you're sailing in PNW and specifically the Strait of Georgia, forget about it.  Every twin rudder boat I've seen arrive here has had their ass handed to them on the race course.  Single rudder setup is the way to go.

A boat that may suit your purpose is the Dash 34.  One for sale in Seattle at the moment for $13k: https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/d/seattle-my-sail-boat/7253813631.html

The outboard can be considered a bit of a drawback, same with the runners and it looks like the main needs replacing.  I have some Dash mains I may consider parting with.  A couple of dacron mains and a lightly used huge roach North Kevlar.

There is another Dash that was for sale in BC and was in our yard up until last week.  Don't know if the guy still wants to sell, but I could probably get in touch with him.  This one has been refitted with a sweptback rig, so no runners .  Sails are/were in decent shape.  Below is the boat in question.  Again, has the outboard, which may or not be an issue for you.  The boat is circa 1981 and had the topsides repainted about 4-5 years ago.

36087642_10156477559407140_4481169199321841664_n.jpg

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My initial thought was go with something older with a solid track record like an Olson 30, express 27 (or 37), j/35 or similar but then I read you're thinking more along the lines of 10-15 years old vs new/newer.  To me 10-15 years old is still fairly new for boats and at risk for significant depreciation. Seems like if you're looking for something more modern and new-ish you might as well just go all in.  Get what you really want, enjoy the hell out of it and don't worry about cost or depreciation, within reason and your budget of course.  Making a good financial decision and buying a boat are words rarely found in the same sentence anyway.  If you really want to keep costs and depreciation down an older boat with a good history might be something to consider though?

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2 hours ago, 12 metre said:

A boat that may suit your purpose is the Dash 34.  One for sale in Seattle at the moment for $13k: https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/d/seattle-my-sail-boat/7253813631.html

The outboard can be considered a bit of a drawback, same with the runners and it looks like the main needs replacing.

Heya 12M, love me dem Dash 34s, but that Seattle boat sounds like a bit of an intergalactic special with it’s “Trilon large roach wind speed depth gauge” and VC70 bottom paint”!  Nice “homeless hoarder” staging for the interior shot too!

Same experience with twin rudder designs on Lake Ontario. 
 

cheers!

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5 hours ago, 12 metre said:

Twin rudders are great for ocean sailing in a breeze.  But if you're sailing in PNW and specifically the Strait of Georgia, forget about it.  Every twin rudder boat I've seen arrive here has had their ass handed to them on the race course.  Single rudder setup is the way to go.

 

What explanation do you have for this? Having never sailed a twin rudder boat I do not have any opinion but having the drag of a second rudder on its own cannot be the reason, can it?

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Twin rudder boats tend to have pretty wide asses that are sticky in light air venues.

For the O.P, if this is still available (website is dead) I would give it some very serious thought: 

Its probably the best built of the F-9A’s/most updated. This might be another good option if Redshift has been sold, build overseen by Farrier himself: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1996/farrier-f-9a-3707673/

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17 minutes ago, danstanford said:

What explanation do you have for this? Having never sailed a twin rudder boat I do not have any opinion but having the drag of a second rudder on its own cannot be the reason, can it?

I think it explains half of it.   They generally have more wetted surface because of the second rudder.

The other part of it is that most of the ones we've seen here are of European origin which tend to be designed for more boisterous conditions than you tend to get around here and so have relatively less SA.  This is not exclusive to twin rudder designs.  Most production European boats have relatively less horsepower than what are generally considered to be fast boats in PNW.  Note I said most and not all because as always - there are exceptions.

Having the second rudder also throws off the whole SA/D analysis thing, or at least for using it as a comparator.  Similar thing happens when you try to compare frac vs MH rigs SA/D.  You can only effectively compare like with like - and the more like they are, the better the SA/D analysis becomes.

Edi: just saw F18s post - and yeah, there's that too.

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4 hours ago, F18 Sailor said:

Twin rudder boats tend to have pretty wide asses that are sticky in light air venues.

For the O.P, if this is still available (website is dead) I would give it some very serious thought: 

Its probably the best built of the F-9A’s/most updated. This might be another good option if Redshift has been sold, build overseen by Farrier himself: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1996/farrier-f-9a-3707673/

Funny you mentioned Redshift.   That's the boat that started this process for us. I looked at it for awhile and we reviewed our major cruising plans, finally decided to pull the trigger on Redshift and it had sold 2 days earlier.

Trifling is interesting but I'm not a fan of the rear cabin.

Either boat was going to require a significant chunk of change to update. Almost to the price of a 15 year newer boat. Which is why I'm now chasing my tail trying to decide on the options that make the most sense. Its also brought me back to looking at newer monohulls.

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4 hours ago, 12 metre said:

I think it explains half of it.   They generally have more wetted surface because of the second rudder.

The other part of it is that most of the ones we've seen here are of European origin which tend to be designed for more boisterous conditions than you tend to get around here and so have relatively less SA.  This is not exclusive to twin rudder designs.  Most production European boats have relatively less horsepower than what are generally considered to be fast boats in PNW.  Note I said most and not all because as always - there are exceptions.

Having the second rudder also throws off the whole SA/D analysis thing, or at least for using it as a comparator.  Similar thing happens when you try to compare frac vs MH rigs SA/D.  You can only effectively compare like with like - and the more like they are, the better the SA/D analysis becomes.

Edi: just saw F18s post - and yeah, there's that too.

I've always wondered about that.  I personally love the twin rudders. But only sailed them for short sails in Atlantic France. They definitely don't seem to get alot of love around PNW.

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9 hours ago, psycho tiller said:

My initial thought was go with something older with a solid track record like an Olson 30, express 27 (or 37), j/35 or similar but then I read you're thinking more along the lines of 10-15 years old vs new/newer.  To me 10-15 years old is still fairly new for boats and at risk for significant depreciation. Seems like if you're looking for something more modern and new-ish you might as well just go all in.  Get what you really want, enjoy the hell out of it and don't worry about cost or depreciation, within reason and your budget of course.  Making a good financial decision and buying a boat are words rarely found in the same sentence anyway.  If you really want to keep costs and depreciation down an older boat with a good history might be something to consider though?

The part I struggle with regarding a 30 year old boat is that I know myself too well.  I will upgrade it and then be left with a highly optimized 30 year old boat. Which I definitely will take a bath on.  If I could leave well enough alone, it'd make sense. But I know I wont.

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On 1/2/2021 at 5:16 PM, tDot said:

The primary goal is to keep sailing while we save, get the kids into sailing and have fun.  The trick is we want to lose as little money as possible on this transaction and have a boat that is reasonably desirable/easy to sell.  We'll probably keep it for 3-5years.

Get a F27. Fast, fun, more stable for toddlers. Toddlers are stupid and will try to walk at the wrong time and fall over and hit their head. Get a cheap inflatable double kayak that you can take 1 kid with you and paddle around an anchorage. If they get bigger they can take it themselves and have fun. If they have happy memories they'll stay sailing.

If you sell it in 3-5 years you will take a minimal hit on depreciation. Which works well with a goal of saving for a bigger catamaran!  Save your money and don't do a lot of upgrades with a short term boat. No fancy electronics, maybe a new sail, but keep it under control. Keep it on a trailer and save moorage costs.

I have a friend with a F27 who keeps it at Lions Gate Marina on a trailer. But other spots in the Lower Mainland are suitable. 

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^^ This

And if an F-27 is too much $$ (and/or want something newer that can't depreciate much further) look at the Corsair 750 Sprint (F-24).

Half the price of the "Corsair Dash", and you can get a 2008-2012 for ~$25k.

That's about the best "deal" that you can get on this side of the pond, IMO, when it comes to $$/kts

It will be much faster than any other mono that you can get for the PNW (for a similar price), easily trailerable, and plenty of space for the kids to frolic around.

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On 1/3/2021 at 10:09 PM, Zonker said:

Get a F27. Fast, fun, more stable for toddlers. Toddlers are stupid and will try to walk at the wrong time and fall over and hit their head. Get a cheap inflatable double kayak that you can take 1 kid with you and paddle around an anchorage. If they get bigger they can take it themselves and have fun. If they have happy memories they'll stay sailing.

If you sell it in 3-5 years you will take a minimal hit on depreciation. Which works well with a goal of saving for a bigger catamaran!  Save your money and don't do a lot of upgrades with a short term boat. No fancy electronics, maybe a new sail, but keep it under control. Keep it on a trailer and save moorage costs.

I have a friend with a F27 who keeps it at Lions Gate Marina on a trailer. But other spots in the Lower Mainland are suitable. 

 

1 hour ago, Floating Duck said:

^^ This

And if an F-27 is too much $$ (and/or want something newer that can't depreciate much further) look at the Corsair 750 Sprint (F-24).

Half the price of the "Corsair Dash", and you can get a 2008-2012 for ~$25k.

That's about the best "deal" that you can get on this side of the pond, IMO, when it comes to $$/kts

It will be much faster than any other mono that you can get for the PNW (for a similar price), easily trailerable, and plenty of space for the kids to frolic around.

Plus you can sail most Farrier/Corsair trimarans to their rating single or double-handed. 

Can't typically do that with many smaller monos due to the need for crew as ballast. 

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Thanks, we actually already spoke about your Seacart. I'd love to snap that up, but I just found out yesterday that I may need back surgery after being hit in an MVA. I'm more then a little shocked and need to get more info before I make any commitments.

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No matter whether you buy a 40 year old boat or a 15 year old boat, you are going to have to put money into that you are not going to get back when you sell it in 3-5 years.  I would focus on your primary of objective of saving for your cat and join a sailing club or factional lease arrangement as an interim way to get on the water until you are ready to buy.

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On 1/3/2021 at 1:24 PM, tDot said:

Funny you mentioned Redshift.   That's the boat that started this process for us. I looked at it for awhile and we reviewed our major cruising plans, finally decided to pull the trigger on Redshift and it had sold 2 days earlier.

Trifling is interesting but I'm not a fan of the rear cabin.

Either boat was going to require a significant chunk of change to update. Almost to the price of a 15 year newer boat. Which is why I'm now chasing my tail trying to decide on the options that make the most sense. Its also brought me back to looking at newer monohulls.

Redshift was moored across the fairway from me at Mosquito Creek while I was there. Ran into him our cruising in August and it was quite the setup. They peeled past me in 20kts downwind in Trincomali like I was standing still and then anchored in 5ft of water in Princess Cove.

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Bought an F24 mk2 this summer for around 20k and we're having a blast. Kids love the tramps, fast when there's wind and still moves when it's glassy. Wish I'd bought one a decade ago when my kids were toddlers. Bonus that I can put it on a trailer and take it home behind a station wagon.

24' might be too small to overnight a family

The 750 has a taller rig than the F24 and the 750 mk2 has more buoyancy in the amas to counteract the bigger rig.

Edit:

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On 1/12/2021 at 3:40 PM, tDot said:

Thanks, we actually already spoke about your Seacart. I'd love to snap that up, but I just found out yesterday that I may need back surgery after being hit in an MVA. I'm more then a little shocked and need to get more info before I make any commitments.

Good luck with the back. Hope it doesn't keep you off the water for long.

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Thanks. Gonna fast track this as much as possible. Getting private 2nd opinions and imaging sounds like its going to cut months off the wait.. On the plus side, if there was ever a year to be stuck in bed, it's probably best to do it during lock down. 

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We've been real happy with our F27 as a family boat (3 kids, started with an F242 and outgrew it), and they hold their value well. If you are considering that route and haven't already, join https://fct.groups.io/g/main and post that you are in BC and looking for a Corsair/Farrier. Boats sometimes change hands thru connections on the forum that were never listed elsewhere. Best wishes for your recovery.

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