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Monkey

EC ideas for Hobie Adv Island improvement

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Looking for advice. So, long story short, I have all the hardware from an Escape sitting in storage (I threw out the hull). I need a new summer project, so I want to build a better sailing version of the Hobie Adventure Island. I’m planning to use the same pedal drive, but everything else is open. Suggestions?

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Deeper centerboard.  Mirror the forward crossbar bearing aft and put the Escape Hoyt Boom on the boat.  Obviously hakas and a hiking stick.  Reverse the rudder lines to it steers like an actual sailboat.  It won't plane no matter what you do because of the hull shape aft.  Find a pair of Tandem Island amas- they fit the akas and will add more RM.  Add a small jib on a furler using a Hobie or homemade mast-topper, will help it point somewhat better. 

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7 minutes ago, bluelaser2 said:

Deeper centerboard.  Mirror the forward crossbar bearing aft and put the Escape Hoyt Boom on the boat.  Obviously hakas and a hiking stick.  Reverse the rudder lines to it steers like an actual sailboat.  It won't plane no matter what you do because of the hull shape aft.  Find a pair of Tandem Island amas- they fit the akas and will add more RM.  Add a small jib on a furler using a Hobie or homemade mast-topper, will help it point somewhat better. 

Ignore the hull shape aft. I’m starting from scratch. I’ll be making all three hulls. I’m not cloning their boat, just the concept. It’ll have the same pedal drive. 

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

Looking for advice. So, long story short, I have all the hardware from an Escape sitting in storage (I threw out the hull). I need a new summer project, so I want to build a better sailing version of the Hobie Adventure Island. I’m planning to use the same pedal drive, but everything else is open. Suggestions?

Make it stop breaking?

 

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15 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Make it stop breaking?

 

Care to expand?  It won’t be a rotomolded hull, and it’ll have carbon beams. Is there something else in the concept prone to failure?

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10 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Care to expand?  It won’t be a rotomolded hull, and it’ll have carbon beams. Is there something else in the concept prone to failure?

If not rotomolded then not an Adventure Island--?? The drives have broken in the race in multiple cases.

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2 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

If not rotomolded then not an Adventure Island--?? The drives have broken in the race in multiple cases.

Maybe I wasn’t fully clear in my original post. I’m going for the same concept, not the same boat. The design constraints are Hobie peddle drive, everything but the hull from an Escape as a starting point point, and it’s open from there. 

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1 minute ago, Crump's Brother said:

Motor mount

No. Only a full blown idiot would do something like that. (Don’t worry, I got the joke!)

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22 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Maybe I wasn’t fully clear in my original post. I’m going for the same concept, not the same boat. The design constraints are Hobie peddle drive, everything but the hull from an Escape as a starting point point, and it’s open from there. 

Ok. So be bring a spare drive.

If you want upwind performance to improve make a better rig.  And board.

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Lighter and stiffer the better.  

I would probably put the daggerboards, maybe curved like an A Class, in the amas. These can be arranged to increase sail carrying power which will increase speed.

SHC

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3 hours ago, Crump's Brother said:

Motor mount

OMG so witty!   But the EC- a seriously hardcore event too serious for armchair adventurers unnerved by a little trolling motor-  has a class for....little electric motors.  And no adjustable sail area,  no bueno for entry.  

Class 6 – Solar Powered Small Craft: Any boat that would normally go in any other class goes into class 6 if they have solar powered propulsion. The solar powered propulsion may be the primary or the auxiliary propulsion source. The class they would normally go in without solar power is their base class. You may arrive at the launch beach with fully charged batteries. After the launch you can stop at marinas or checkpoints along the way and recharge your batteries. However, the clock keeps ticking. Your primary charging power must come from one or more of the following: • Solar panels on your boat. • Human powered generator located on your boat. • Wind powered generator located on your boat. • Electric motor that functions as a generator when under sail power. • Generators towed behind your boat ARE NOT ALLOWED. All rules for your “base class” must be followed. If your boat has sails, your sails must adhere to the reefing rule for sailboats located at the end of this document.

PS, the first EC was won overall by an Expedition 14.5 .  Laser2 is a thoroughbred hull design.   

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20 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

Lighter and stiffer the better.  

I would probably put the daggerboards, maybe curved like an A Class, in the amas. These can be arranged to increase sail carrying power which will increase speed.

SHC

That’s an interesting idea. I was planning on a single dagger board in the center hull for simplicity. I wonder if a used set off an A Class would be worth it. They’d probably be a bit bigger than I need. I’m not looking to build a winning boat, just something fun. I’m constrained by using the rig I’ve already got, but otherwise, anything that isn’t wildly expensive is on the table. I’ve got the toys at work to mill foam molds, so I’ll probably go with carbon for the construction. 

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35 minutes ago, Monkey said:

That’s an interesting idea. I was planning on a single dagger board in the center hull for simplicity. I wonder if a used set off an A Class would be worth it. They’d probably be a bit bigger than I need. I’m not looking to build a winning boat, just something fun. I’m constrained by using the rig I’ve already got, but otherwise, anything that isn’t wildly expensive is on the table. I’ve got the toys at work to mill foam molds, so I’ll probably go with carbon for the construction. 

If you are making your own boat, and you want it to really sail well, then make an actual sailing oriented trimaran hull and amas.

Steve's idea of the boards is interesting. Have you sailed this race yet? Are you interested in being able to sail the "inside passage" or are you content to sail the outside only (like the beach cats do). This influences everything--draft, ease of retracting boards, ability to run aground without damage, ability to get under low bridges...

To me that seems like the "fork in the road." Inside versus outside.

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29 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

If you are making your own boat, and you want it to really sail well, then make an actual sailing oriented trimaran hull and amas.

Steve's idea of the boards is interesting. Have you sailed this race yet? Are you interested in being able to sail the "inside passage" or are you content to sail the outside only (like the beach cats do). This influences everything--draft, ease of retracting boards, ability to run aground without damage, ability to get under low bridges...

To me that seems like the "fork in the road." Inside versus outside.

I’ve never done the race before, but would prefer inside passage. Dropping the rig to clear bridges isn’t a big deal. In shallow water, I obviously couldn’t risk running with boards fully down, and am planning a kick up rudder with no T foils.  It doesn’t need to be a rocket ship, but I’m thinking I’d prefer a sailing first version of the Hobie versus an all purpose. I just want a fun project to build, as well as having RC and R2AK on my bucket list. Finishing is the goal, not winning. 

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5 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I’ve never done the race before, but would prefer inside passage. Dropping the rig to clear bridges isn’t a big deal. In shallow water, I obviously couldn’t risk running with boards fully down, and am planning a kick up rudder with no T foils.  It doesn’t need to be a rocket ship, but I’m thinking I’d prefer a sailing first version of the Hobie versus an all purpose. I just want a fun project to build, as well as having RC and R2AK on my bucket list. Finishing is the goal, not winning. 

So reliability. Damage tolerance. Sometimes all the water runs away. Other times it is flooded. Can vary hugely with the wind and tide. Such an interesting race! I want to do it.

Almost want a centerboard for shallow water...

Rig you have to decide if modern paradigm or not...probably yes. You thinking square top?

Find out the Adventure Island weight. Build at 60% of that, make your boat 1 foot longer. AI killer :-)

If you put banana foils and twin ama rudders you could fly the main hull and haul ass. Even if you don't be sure to engineer the akas and all strutural attachments and rig to take that righting moment of flying the main hull at full departure displacement. That way you won't break it.

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Just now, fastyacht said:

So reliability. Damage tolerance. Sometimes all the water runs away. Other times it is flooded. Can vary hugely with the wind and tide. Such an interesting race! I want to do it.

Almost want a centerboard for shallow water...

Rig you have to decide if modern paradigm or not...probably yes. You thinking square top?

Find out the Adventure Island weight. Build at 60% of that, make your boat 1 foot longer. AI killer :-)

The rig is already decided. I scrapped an Escape but kept all its parts with the intent to build something weird. I’ll probably add side stays to account for the extra righting moment, but otherwise leave it alone. The only other decided factor is I’m going to use Hobie’s peddle drive. Everything else is unknown, which is why I’m looking for ideas. 

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2 minutes ago, Monkey said:

The rig is already decided. I scrapped an Escape but kept all its parts with the intent to build something weird. I’ll probably add side stays to account for the extra righting moment, but otherwise leave it alone. The only other decided factor is I’m going to use Hobie’s peddle drive. Everything else is unknown, which is why I’m looking for ideas. 

OK good. Make the amas as long as the main hull. Waterline is your friend. Keep weight down (carbon / honeycomb) that will stress the drive less too.

OK on escape rig. Hey, rigging is something you do. It can evolve.

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The other thing of course is beam. You can sit out--instead of staying in the main hull. That makes it possible to keep the overall beam down. That makes the structure lighter. Remember that bending moment rises with the square of the span. by sitting out, you can get all your power without having to duplicated it on each side. Think of it as a catamaran with a pod.

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6 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

The other thing of course is beam. You can sit out--instead of staying in the main hull. That makes it possible to keep the overall beam down. That makes the structure lighter. Remember that bending moment rises with the square of the span. by sitting out, you can get all your power without having to duplicated it on each side. Think of it as a catamaran with a pod.

We’re on the same page there. My plan is to basically mimic the Hobie setup, but include a tiller attachment so I can sail it properly from the high side. 
 

edit:  it’ll make the kick up function a bit harder, but I’ll figure it out. 

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Analyse your rig with shhrouds and 30 knots to see what hte heeling moment is. Then design your overall beam to achieve that rigthing moment flying the main hull. That would be an absolute max need for righting moment I'd say. But also check that the spar can take that. I'd still keep that as a design point because you could always change rig. But figure out what your limits are on the rig so you don't break it. Know when to reef...

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On 1/13/2021 at 8:13 PM, Steve Clark said:

Lighter and stiffer the better.  

I would probably put the daggerboards, maybe curved like an A Class, in the amas. These can be arranged to increase sail carrying power which will increase speed.

SHC

Should he use the Escape hull stiffening kit to help with the stiffer part of lighter and stiffer? :D

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The fewer Escape parts used the better.

Should try to be comfortably under 100 lbs

SHC

 

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Is the Escape rig a Sprit rig?  You will need to figure out a practical and efficient reefing system.  Aside from reefing just being smart, it's also a Watertribe rule.  Due to the size of the sail you will need a minimum of 2 reefs.  

 

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This has been done a couple of times, but always using the Hobie rig. The most notable version is the TriRaid 560. Roger Mann built one and did pretty well. http://rogermann.org/blog/2013/12/08/triraid-560-splashes/. However it's not clear to me this boat is better than the Hobie... 

I've now done the EC twice in a Hobie TI and really support your idea. The two worst things about the TI are the terrible centerboard and lack of a boom. If Hobie could fit a Hoyt boom on the current boat it would improve it in so many ways. A deeper, stiffer CB in the correct location would also be a great improvement. Ten-plus degrees of leeway is not uncommon. 

An important factor in gaining and losing places in the EC is your rest routine. You have to rest or else you will crash and burn. Being able to transition quickly and easily from sailing mode to rest mode will make a huge difference in your time. 

One of the big issues hindering camp efficiency with the Hobie boats is stowing gear. So whatever you come up with, keep that in mind. My solution in the TI is the One Big Bag approach: all camp gear goes in one large Watershed bag and is strapped either to a haka or if I'm solo in the front cockpit. This is great for speed and ease of setting up and breaking down camps. When you land, you grab your bag and everything you need for shelter, clothing, cooking, eating, etc. is all in there. And when you leave, you toss it all back in the bag, seal it up and strap it on. Super fast and you aren't filling lots of little bags and trying to stuff them inside the hull.  So give a lot of thought to how you are going to stow your stuff while making your camp routine fast and efficient and also keeping the boat trimmed properly. 

If you really want to be fast and efficient, figure out a way to comfortably sleep on board at anchor. But honestly, it's pretty nice to get off the boat for a few hours and getting into dry clothes and bedding is really good for recharging your internal batteries. 

I would not put any foils in the amas, as has been suggested. There are places, particularly in FL Bay where they would be an extreme liability. You need to be able to instantaneously pull up foils else you can get seriously stuck. Foils that are 6-8' away will be a giant pain in the ass. 

Make sure you can still paddle the boat. Sometimes the water is just too shallow for a Mirage drive. I find a single blade is best on my TI.

The Hobie seat is pretty great. I'd figure on using that in whatever you build. I've found I'm much less beat up physically after an EC in my Hobie than I was in my Core Sound because of that seat. And my Core Sound was a pretty comfortable boat. 
 

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On 1/13/2021 at 7:05 PM, Monkey said:

Care to expand?  It won’t be a rotomolded hull, and it’ll have carbon beams. Is there something else in the concept prone to failure?

Failure points on the Hobie: mast bearings, steering, akas, the screw at the mast base, mirage drives get bent and the shafts succumb to crevice corrosion and snap off. The hulls sometimes fail at the drive wells and scupper holes and leak. On my boat the screw that held the tiller handle on snapped off -- crevice corrosion again -- the first time I sailed the boat after finishing the 2020 EC. 

I did eventually get used to the tiller being backwards. 

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  You could eliminate a lot of complexity by eliminating the peddle drive.  The peddle drive concept does work pretty well with the Hobies but you don't see any peddle drives in the human powered classes one and two.  

There is a lot to be said for a canoe paddle.  Simple, never fails and uses core muscles.  Or a kayak paddle, whichever your preference.  Personally think the main advantage to peddle drives on kayaks is they are hands free so you can fish and move at the same time.

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On 1/18/2021 at 10:12 AM, MisterMoon said:

This has been done a couple of times, but always using the Hobie rig. The most notable version is the TriRaid 560. Roger Mann built one and did pretty well. http://rogermann.org/blog/2013/12/08/triraid-560-splashes/. However it's not clear to me this boat is better than the Hobie... 

I've now done the EC twice in a Hobie TI and really support your idea. The two worst things about the TI are the terrible centerboard and lack of a boom. If Hobie could fit a Hoyt boom on the current boat it would improve it in so many ways. A deeper, stiffer CB in the correct location would also be a great improvement. Ten-plus degrees of leeway is not uncommon. 

An important factor in gaining and losing places in the EC is your rest routine. You have to rest or else you will crash and burn. Being able to transition quickly and easily from sailing mode to rest mode will make a huge difference in your time. 

One of the big issues hindering camp efficiency with the Hobie boats is stowing gear. So whatever you come up with, keep that in mind. My solution in the TI is the One Big Bag approach: all camp gear goes in one large Watershed bag and is strapped either to a haka or if I'm solo in the front cockpit. This is great for speed and ease of setting up and breaking down camps. When you land, you grab your bag and everything you need for shelter, clothing, cooking, eating, etc. is all in there. And when you leave, you toss it all back in the bag, seal it up and strap it on. Super fast and you aren't filling lots of little bags and trying to stuff them inside the hull.  So give a lot of thought to how you are going to stow your stuff while making your camp routine fast and efficient and also keeping the boat trimmed properly. 

If you really want to be fast and efficient, figure out a way to comfortably sleep on board at anchor. But honestly, it's pretty nice to get off the boat for a few hours and getting into dry clothes and bedding is really good for recharging your internal batteries. 

I would not put any foils in the amas, as has been suggested. There are places, particularly in FL Bay where they would be an extreme liability. You need to be able to instantaneously pull up foils else you can get seriously stuck. Foils that are 6-8' away will be a giant pain in the ass. 

Make sure you can still paddle the boat. Sometimes the water is just too shallow for a Mirage drive. I find a single blade is best on my TI.

The Hobie seat is pretty great. I'd figure on using that in whatever you build. I've found I'm much less beat up physically after an EC in my Hobie than I was in my Core Sound because of that seat. And my Core Sound was a pretty comfortable boat. 
 

Awesome advice!  I appreciate it. I love the Hobie as is. It’s an awesome little boat. I just have a pile of parts laying around, so why not build on the concept?  

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On 1/18/2021 at 12:55 PM, TBW said:

  You could eliminate a lot of complexity by eliminating the peddle drive.  The peddle drive concept does work pretty well with the Hobies but you don't see any peddle drives in the human powered classes one and two.  

There is a lot to be said for a canoe paddle.  Simple, never fails and uses core muscles.  Or a kayak paddle, whichever your preference.  Personally think the main advantage to peddle drives on kayaks is they are hands free so you can fish and move at the same time.

No argument here. I want to use the mirage drive because it’ll also be a summer toy. I’ve got no issues with carrying a paddle as back up. I’m not planning to set the world on fire. I just want to build a neat boat on the same concept while minimizing the drawbacks actual sailors have. I want it to sail first. 

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4 hours ago, Monkey said:

No argument here. I want to use the mirage drive because it’ll also be a summer toy. I’ve got no issues with carrying a paddle as back up. I’m not planning to set the world on fire. I just want to build a neat boat on the same concept while minimizing the drawbacks actual sailors have. I want it to sail first. 

I find the pedal drive to be the preferred solution for a heavy and draggy boat capable of sailing all directions, including to windward. You CAN paddle a Hobie AI/TI but you damn sure don’t want to do it for very long. Whereas I can pedal pretty much all day at 3 knots. Class 1 and 2 are lighter, narrower, slicker, have less wetted surface and are much more easily paddled than trimaran with the necessary power to carry sail. 
 

the main reason you don’t pedal drives on narrow kayaks is the paddler/pedal-er has a much higher COG owing to the fact his feet and legs have to be pretty high to pedal efficiently. This means you have to build a more stable boat by adding beam or attaching training wheel amas to keep you upright. Either way, you’ve added wavemaking drag and/or wetted surface. If you’re going to do those things anyway , you might as well put on a sail rig. 

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7 hours ago, MisterMoon said:


 

the main reason you don’t pedal drives on narrow kayaks is the paddler/pedal-er has a much higher COG owing to the fact his feet and legs have to be pretty high to pedal efficiently. This means you have to build a more stable boat by adding beam or attaching training wheel amas to keep you upright. Either way, you’ve added wavemaking drag and/or wetted surface. If you’re going to do those things anyway , you might as well put on a sail rig. 

You don't figure the large hull perforation and engineering challenges factor into the absence of pedal drives in Class 1 and 2?    Hobie AIs are SOT kayaks so they can get away with the big hole in the boat but I am not sure it would be as welcome in a sit inside boat.  Unless the OP is planning on building some kind of sit on top tri maran I think it's at least worth considering whether the hole is a good idea or not.

Where does one put the daggerboard trunk?  We have a recumbent sitting position legs extended to pedal drive.  This is occupying the highest volume portion of the boat, so the daggerboard is displaced to either behind, in front of or beside the pilot? Or leeboard?  

Think the OP needs to start with a detailed drawing and stock card scale model to figure out how all the parts are going to fit together.  

 

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The sit on top doesnt need to be stable if already a trimaran.

Anyone tried paddle and treadle togegjervsamevtime?

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

 

Anyone tried paddle and treadle 

I am not sure it would make sense.  Efficient paddling comes from hips, legs and core.  Feet need to be firmly braced to acheive efficient hip rotation.  Treadle and paddle would be in conflict, you could end up pedaling with your legs and paddling with your arms while the strong core muscles were in conflict.  I am sure it could be possible, but I think one would need to come up with a very disciplined stroke to do both efficiently at once.  

 

 

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I thought about that. Figured you eould have to synchronize so push natches oull so to spesk

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