Panoramix

Don't be a diesel mechanics, be a sailor...

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Don't be an electrician, be a sailor. The Almost Perfect Diesel SailBoat.

* wait, you thought these things were going to still work perfectly 40 years from now :rolleyes:

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15 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Don't be an electrician, be a sailor. The Almost Perfect Diesel SailBoat.

* wait, you thought these things were going to still work perfectly 40 years from now :rolleyes:

These things always worry me - the invasion of the outside screens.  Ugh.  What do you do with that in a few years when the piece of equipment has failed and you can’t replace it with the same size thing, or don’t want it there?  Fibreglass over it?!

Cool boats, though.

C17FD603-564A-4201-B661-05BC35E9F158.jpeg

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16 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

These things always worry me - the invasion of the outside screens.  Ugh.  What do you do with that in a few years when the piece of equipment has failed and you can’t replace it with the same size thing, or don’t want it there?  Fibreglass over it?!

Cool boats, though.

C17FD603-564A-4201-B661-05BC35E9F158.jpeg

Is it just me but wouldn't it be pretty easy to put a knee through that screen if you zigged when the boat zagged?

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14 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Can we get a price on that boat, please? :-)

Yes, I know, batteries are expensive... With so much research going into car batteries, that might eventually come down to a level where price doesn't come too much into the equation. Nevertheless you have to admit that the self sufficient boat free of oily/smelly fluids is a rather good prospect!

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1 minute ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Is it just me but wouldn't it be pretty easy to put a knee through that screen if you zigged when the boat zagged?

Nah.  The broker told them it’ll be fine :-)

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22 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

These things always worry me - the invasion of the outside screens.  Ugh.  What do you do with that in a few years when the piece of equipment has failed and you can’t replace it with the same size thing, or don’t want it there?  Fibreglass over it?!

Cool boats, though.

C17FD603-564A-4201-B661-05BC35E9F158.jpeg

 

I have that model. I wasn't so dumb to carve a hole in the fiberglass for it. It's mounted on a swivel mount on my binnacle guard.

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21 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Yes, I know, batteries are expensive... With so much research going into car batteries, that might eventually come down to a level where price doesn't come too much into the equation. Nevertheless you have to admit that the self sufficient boat free of oily/smelly fluids is a rather good prospect!

I’m sure battery technology and pricing will improve over time.  I don’t mind my diesel engine terribly - but it did take a while  to get it rebuilt and reinstalled.  (I’m also lucky to have great engine access for such a small [10m/33’] boat - pic below.)  I’m certainly interested in electric motors, but that’ll be years off for me, as long as my current, rebuilt old technology is working fine...)

(My comment above about price was actually irrelevant as it was just my reaction to the probable cost of a brand new boat.  I can’t imagine dumping that much money into a brand new boat - that’s all. Wish I could, but...)

 

B5ED8351-0E22-409B-A346-7667784E217D.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

These things always worry me - the invasion of the outside screens.  Ugh.  What do you do with that in a few years when the piece of equipment has failed and you can’t replace it with the same size thing, or don’t want it there?  Fibreglass over it?!

Cool boats, though.

Long way inside to check the screen. Reading paper charts in rain ain't fun either.

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17 minutes ago, Upp3 said:

Long way inside to check the screen. Reading paper charts in rain ain't fun either.

I meant the built-in screen (which Ajax noted he avoided).  I personally don’t like nav electronics installed outside - my preference on my 33’ boat.  Partly because it’s too hard, having a tiller!  Nowhere to mount them - but I’m also a bit cautious about the longevity of electrical connections outside - maybe if I could remove the plotter.

Charts can go into one of those heavy vinyl ziploc sealed envelopes/bags designed for charts.  We sewed a pocket underneath the top of our dodger for the vinyl chart holder envelope.

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9 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

I meant the built-in screen (which Ajax noted he avoided).  I personally don’t like nav electronics installed outside - my preference on my 33’ boat.  Partly because it’s too hard, having a tiller!  Nowhere to mount them - but I’m also a bit cautious about the longevity of electrical connections outside - maybe if I could remove the plotter.

Charts can go into one of those heavy vinyl ziploc sealed envelopes/bags designed for charts.  We sewed a pocket underneath the top of our dodger for the vinyl chart holder envelope.

I have most of my gear below and my boat is set up so it is pretty easy to see the chart table from the cockpit. There are times when I need to see a screen and steer, so I do have a Standard-Horizon plotter at the helm. It was intended to sit outside and has had no issues doing so. If I don't have the bimini up and it is going to snow or a hurricane is coming I will stick it below or put a bag on it.

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10 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

I meant the built-in screen (which Ajax noted he avoided).  I personally don’t like nav electronics installed outside - my preference on my 33’ boat.  Partly because it’s too hard, having a tiller!  Nowhere to mount them - but I’m also a bit cautious about the longevity of electrical connections outside - maybe if I could remove the plotter.

Charts can go into one of those heavy vinyl ziploc sealed envelopes/bags designed for charts.  We sewed a pocket underneath the top of our dodger for the vinyl chart holder envelope.

I really wouldn't worry about the longevity of marinized electronics. My old Ray C80 plotter was nearly 20 years old. A few of my friends are still running them. None of them lived inside the cabin. B&G has a pretty good reputation as well, which is why I went with them.

One thing to avoid, is constantly mounting and unmounting the unit to store it somewhere "safe."  That puts strain and wear on the connector pins which can lead to premature failure. Install it for the season, always put the screen cover on when not in use, and if you're really worried, make a sunbrella cover to go over the entire unit, like your binnacle compass.

Unmount and store the unit in the home in a safe place during the winter when the boat is layed up.

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40 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

I meant the built-in screen (which Ajax noted he avoided).  I personally don’t like nav electronics installed outside - my preference on my 33’ boat.  Partly because it’s too hard, having a tiller!  Nowhere to mount them - but I’m also a bit cautious about the longevity of electrical connections outside - maybe if I could remove the plotter.

Charts can go into one of those heavy vinyl ziploc sealed envelopes/bags designed for charts.  We sewed a pocket underneath the top of our dodger for the vinyl chart holder envelope.

On a tiller boat, electronics on the bulkhead tend to work well. On a not too big boat you can even fiddle with the electronics while steering with the "hiking" stick.

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I inherited a big hole for a radar and a radio on the bulkhead.  Sure it's nice to have it under the dodger, but holes mean more leaks and fiberglass work when it comes time to replace. I did put my knee into the radar once. :angry: On the other hand, I'm not a big fan of everything on the binnacle. The swivel mount idea seems a nice compromise. I'm going to try the wireless from the XB-8000 to see how many permanent fixtures I can avoid.  

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33 minutes ago, Ajax said:

I really wouldn't worry about the longevity of marinized electronics. My old Ray C80 plotter was nearly 20 years old. A few of my friends are still running them. None of them lived inside the cabin. B&G has a pretty good reputation as well, which is why I went with them.

One thing to avoid, is constantly mounting and unmounting the unit to store it somewhere "safe."  That puts strain and wear on the connector pins which can lead to premature failure. Install it for the season, always put the screen cover on when not in use, and if you're really worried, make a sunbrella cover to go over the entire unit, like your binnacle compass.

Unmount and store the unit in the home in a safe place during the winter when the boat is layed up.

Exactly what I do with my Pelagic autopilot control unit. Lives at home during our long rainy winter.

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BTDT.  First time the unit is changed, you make an adapter plate.  Thereafter, each change only requires making a new adapter plate.  Heck, you could even make a blank one to close up the hole.  

But then again, I couldn't possibly buy a boat like that because the sheets are the wrong color.  

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2 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Is it just me but wouldn't it be pretty easy to put a knee through that screen if you zigged when the boat zagged?

Yes to all objections. How about a big splash making the touch screen do something you didn't want it to? Stupid addiction to flashy toys.

5 minutes ago, toddster said:

BTDT.  First time the unit is changed, you make an adapter plate.  Thereafter, each change only requires making a new adapter plate.  Heck, you could even make a blank one to close up the hole.  

But then again, I couldn't possibly buy a boat like that because the sheets are the wrong color.  

It's still in a stupid location IMHO. Guaranteed to have somebody put their knee or foot thru it during some hard sailing.

But I'd be too busy cursing the cocktail table in the way. Kind of a shame because it looks like a fairly nice boat, most ways

FB- Doug

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42 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Guaranteed to have somebody put their knee or foot thru it during some hard sailing.

One of the boats I sail on has one of these.
The worse pain is actually accidentally touching the screen and messing up what is being displayed. Not catastrophic, but annoying. I suppose you get used to it.(last year was just short on opportunities)
Plus half the installations I have seen have the button(right wheel) exposed that I always worry about accidentally ripping it off before breaking the screen.

As for the twin electric motors. Let's do some tank turns! (I don't know the term for boats. Walking the ship?)

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I love the twin leccy motor thing.  Brilliant.

But this is yet another cruising boat with a torpedo-bulb keel.  What is wrong with designers and builders who don't see why that is a non-no?

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3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Don't be an electrician, be a sailor. The Almost Perfect Diesel SailBoat.

* wait, you thought these things were going to still work perfectly 40 years from now :rolleyes:

Heh.  One of the main reasons I’m extremely leery of being an early adapter of new technologies.  One of the boats I work on is being repowered now due to unreliability and shortage of replacement parts.  They were the latest and greatest snazzy new electronic controlled diesels when installed.  Now, 20 years later, spare parts are no longer made and the controls and interfaces are obsolete.  It’s a work boat, so we can’t afford to wait 2 weeks for someone to dust off a shelf of parts they haven’t touched in years, and the only mechanics who know the system are in their 60s.  Granted, I really like some of the snazzy new stuff out now, I’m just happy to let someone else pay for the development.

 

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8 minutes ago, NaClH20 said:

Heh.  One of the main reasons I’m extremely leery of being an early adapter of new technologies.  One of the boats I work on is being repowered now due to unreliability and shortage of replacement parts.  They were the latest and greatest snazzy new electronic controlled diesels when installed.  Now, 20 years later, spare parts are no longer made and the controls and interfaces are obsolete.  It’s a work boat, so we can’t afford to wait 2 weeks for someone to dust off a shelf of parts they haven’t touched in years, and the only mechanics who know the system are in their 60s.  Granted, I really like some of the snazzy new stuff out now, I’m just happy to let someone else pay for the development.

 

There is that! These things are all new, so you have early adopter issues, but eventually they will be old and have problems and the parts may be long gone.

The other issue is - see the famous 10,000 ways to not get your fuel tank cleaned thread - consists of someone with an engine that is decades old and hasn't been maintained well or at all in the last decade replacing it with an electric motor and raving about how reliable it is. Ya think :rolleyes: Of course now I can only motor in and out of the marina, but that is all I wanted to do anyway :rolleyes:

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18 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

I love the twin leccy motor thing.  Brilliant.

But this is yet another cruising boat with a torpedo-bulb keel.  What is wrong with designers and builders who don't see why that is a non-no?

Our old Cal 20 had one, it isn't a new idea, but at least it was fared in to not catch crab traps.

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Forty years from now, will you be able to fix ugly?

 

 

 

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The longer my current diesel lasts, the more likely I'll convert to electric propulsion when it finally dies. The technology is finally moving at a rapid enough pace to see real improvements.

 

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Electrical as a replacement for diesel in terms of reliability and maintenance? I think you are delusional. Compare: brand new diesel professionally installed vs brand new electrical motor/battery system professionally installed. Which one will require significant maintenance first? The electrical components every time.

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4 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

These things always worry me - the invasion of the outside screens.  Ugh.  What do you do with that in a few years when the piece of equipment has failed and you can’t replace it with the same size thing, or don’t want it there?  Fibreglass over it?!

Cool boats, though.

C17FD603-564A-4201-B661-05BC35E9F158.jpeg

I bought a boat with a poor layout for a display in that same location.  To change it, i found a pro to glass it and re gelcoat the area.  I then install 2 small displays, in an orientation and feeding me the info I wanted.  The work was slightly more then the cost of a pod for a display, which you're likely to need a new one for each new display.  Zero issue with the repair and zero hesitation to do it again.   Its also easy to just mount the new display in a new plate to cover ths old hole.

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55 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

I love the twin leccy motor thing.  Brilliant.

But this is yet another cruising boat with a torpedo-bulb keel.  What is wrong with designers and builders who don't see why that is a non-no?

Do you know somebody who actually managed to get a crab pot stuck in the bulb? IME when you are sailing (rather than motoring) they end up stuck in front of the keel. Nevertheless the saildrives not in line with the keel are probably a bit too exposed, I imagine if you bump in a log, it is easy to damage one. I would prefer a faired shaft like they do on racing boats.

Talking of crab pots and murphy law, I managed to get one stuck between the spinnaker guy) and the hull. It was one of those French one with a big wooden perch and it just jammed itself between the guy, the rail and the guy pulley, the boat started pulling it, I thought this is going to be a spectacular Chinese gybe and then the pole snapped and off we went! The flag was already mostly ripped off we had the sun in our eyes and saw it at the last minute!

I've sailed boats with bulbs and never caught one with the bulb, the big issue for me is catching stuff in the propeller. Then usually there is current here so most of the time the current frees the boat once the sails are eased.

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2 minutes ago, Guvacine said:

Electrical as a replacement for diesel in terms of reliability and maintenance? I think you are delusional. Compare: brand new diesel professionally installed vs brand new electrical motor/battery system professionally installed. Which one will require significant maintenance first? The electrical components every time.

What type of maintenance?

No brushes on modern motors, it is just a few bearings, 2 gears in the saildrive, electric connections and some circuitry. As long as it is well designed and you use it within its capabilities, there isn't that much to maintain!

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Yeah - that "circuitry" is what I'm talking about. That and the high tech batteries.

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22 minutes ago, Guvacine said:

Yeah - that "circuitry" is what I'm talking about. That and the high tech batteries.

You don't have to maintain "circuitry" or batteries more often than a diesel, assuming that it was well sized apart not over-discharging the batteries and visually checking that it doesn't corrode, there isn't much that needs to be done!

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profile.JPG.2bce4d59b974a30f3a43cca92ebf9fa4.JPG2140364387_Salona46props.JPG.bcd8ad5e0e91b4d29a28f4cbe3d01b9e.JPG

 

2.6m draft !  Performance oriented marina to marina cruising, I know that's popular in the Med but I wince at the thought of cruising in that with all the garbage collectors

Anyone have any useful technical data on the propulsion system. Again practicality says it's ok for getting into and out of a marina but not much else.

 

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43 minutes ago, MikeJohns said:

2.6m draft !  Performance oriented marina to marina cruising, I know that's popular in the Med but I wince at the thought of cruising in that with all the garbage collectors

In the med there is little point in having a shallow draft boat, the issue is more to find places that are shallow enough to anchor!

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The most interesting thing about it is the electric propulsion system, not only because it is a production boat, but the dual drive set up is unique on a mono. The video points out the benefit of dual regeneration under sail, but there is no info in the video or on the website as to battery capacity, range etc.

The Uma couple has the same drive system, and have already had one catastrophic failure although it was purchased (given?) used. They make it work since they live on the boat and have no set schedule, they can sit for long periods waiting for sailing conditions. My life does not work that way so true range under power would be a key statistic.

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3 hours ago, MikeJohns said:

profile.JPG.2bce4d59b974a30f3a43cca92ebf9fa4.JPG2140364387_Salona46props.JPG.bcd8ad5e0e91b4d29a28f4cbe3d01b9e.JPG

Nice looking picture of the box the boat comes in, but where's the boat?  :rolleyes:

If your doing dual motors, why not dual rudders too?  The gain in close quarters maneuvering would seem to be worth it on a cruising oriented boat

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1 hour ago, steele said:

The Uma couple has the same drive system, and have already had one catastrophic failure although it was purchased (given?) used.

Uma's used drive was off a boat which had been hit by lightning, which wouldn't be most people's starting point.  And the failure was only of the drive leg, not the motor.  I don't see in that any reason to think that there is a flaw in those drive legs.

2 hours ago, steele said:

They make it work since they live on the boat and have no set schedule, they can sit for long periods waiting for sailing conditions. My life does not work that way so true range under power would be a key statistic.

On that boat, range under power is basically a function of battery size giving you range since the last recharge.  I suspect that battery size is a matter of how much battery you want to pay for, but the innovation of the Solana 46 is its very high regen rates.  2kw of regen on a breezy reach is a huge step up on what I have heard of on other boats, so recharge opportunities are no longer tied to shore power or an onboard generator.

If you want huge range under engine alone, then any pure electric boat is still off the menu.  But if you are willing to take a range of 50 miles or so, then this boat is a viable option ... and in that regard, it seems to be unique.  For those of us who have been cruising with a wee outboard and limited fuel, that sounds like a very workable option.  

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Jimmy Cornell started out on his all electric circumnavigation.  He turned back at the Canaries.  The Oceanvolt systems simply weren't able to produce enough regen power to keep the batteries topped up.  He's in an Outremer 4x, so definitely able to produce higher sustained speeds then most monohulls. This isnt the first time I've read about regeneration being the main drawback to the system.  Oceanvolt produced a new propeller that was supposed to increase the regen capacity of the system. But from Jimmy's reports, it didn't work. Too bad.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yachtingworld.com/features/jimmy-cornell-report-aboard-eco-friendly-electric-catamaran-128880/amp

 

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1 hour ago, tDot said:

Jimmy Cornell started out on his all electric circumnavigation.  He turned back at the Canaries.  The Oceanvolt systems simply weren't able to produce enough regen power to keep the batteries topped up. 

Here's Jimmy's report on the electric failure https://cornellsailing.com/2020/12/electric-shock/ 

It's pretty dire ... and also a huge contrast to the high regen he achieved in sea trails.

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The twin prop electric re gen set up has kind of been a holy grail for parts of the catamaran crowd for quite some time now. Back in and around 06/07 a couple of builders trotted out a couple of set ups. Lagoon 420 had electric re gen and the Alibi 54 was initially marketed and equipped with a re gen system. Most or all of these early stage systems have been swapped for twin diesels do to reliability issues.

That's not to say that it can't happen or that it hasn't gotten closer to reality. Here's a more recent article from the MultiHull Company. It goes through the type of system that might currently be considered by a large cat owner. What I find interesting in the article is the mention of either integration or omission, depending on the system, of an auxiliary genset to create a hybrid system. Its not that it is any more efficient than straight diesel, but that having a hybrid diesel/electric system gives a lot more options for generating power for both house and range requirements.

CATAMARAN ELECTRIC PROPULSION

 

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4 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Uma's used drive was off a boat which had been hit by lightning, which wouldn't be most people's starting point.  And the failure was only of the drive leg, not the motor.  I don't see in that any reason to think that there is a flaw in those drive legs.

On that boat, range under power is basically a function of battery size giving you range since the last recharge.  I suspect that battery size is a matter of how much battery you want to pay for, but the innovation of the Solana 46 is its very high regen rates.  2kw of regen on a breezy reach is a huge step up on what I have heard of on other boats, so recharge opportunities are no longer tied to shore power or an onboard generator.

If you want huge range under engine alone, then any pure electric boat is still off the menu.  But if you are willing to take a range of 50 miles or so, then this boat is a viable option ... and in that regard, it seems to be unique.  For those of us who have been cruising with a wee outboard and limited fuel, that sounds like a very workable option.  

If your estimate of 50 miles is correct, and the regen works as advertised, then a boat like this would meet my needs. I am not in the market for any boat right now, especially one this big and expensive, but it is a fun mental exercise. Our cruising is often sub 50 mile legs with the option of spending a night in a marina every 2-3 days. Add in the regen, and solar, and it might work.

Adding a ICE generator is a turn off. I understand that it would only be used occasionally but the need for a cooling system, exhaust, tanks etc with the maintainence and space it all requires offsets the advantages of an electric boat for me.

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6 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Uma's used drive was off a boat which had been hit by lightning, which wouldn't be most people's starting point.  And the failure was only of the drive leg, not the motor.  I don't see in that any reason to think that there is a flaw in those drive legs.

On that boat, range under power is basically a function of battery size giving you range since the last recharge.  I suspect that battery size is a matter of how much battery you want to pay for, but the innovation of the Solana 46 is its very high regen rates.  2kw of regen on a breezy reach is a huge step up on what I have heard of on other boats, so recharge opportunities are no longer tied to shore power or an onboard generator.

If you want huge range under engine alone, then any pure electric boat is still off the menu.  But if you are willing to take a range of 50 miles or so, then this boat is a viable option ... and in that regard, it seems to be unique.  For those of us who have been cruising with a wee outboard and limited fuel, that sounds like a very workable option.  

Umas electric drive was a gift from a cat that replaced it with a diesel ...

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Just now, olaf hart said:

Umas electric drive was a gift from a cat that replaced it with a diesel ...

AFAICR, it was a little more complex than that: the mega-budget donor cat went from 4 Oceanvolt drives to two, with some diesel in the new mix, via a lightning strike

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Here's Jimmy's report on the electric failure https://cornellsailing.com/2020/12/electric-shock/ 

It's pretty dire ... and also a huge contrast to the high regen he achieved in sea trails.

It is an interesting failure.

What I find amazing is that they weren't even balancing their needs when underway, so while at anchor, I imagine that it would be pretty catastrophic. People have managed to balance their needs underway with differing proportions of water generator, solar panel and wind turbine. Trouble is that the average medium size boat cruiser cooks on gas and just needs power for the autopilot, navigation lights, electronics, fridge for some and a few bits and bobs whereas these guys cook on an induction plate plus I imagine have lot of gadgets.

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3 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

What I find amazing is that they weren't even balancing their needs when underway, so while at anchor, I imagine that it would be pretty catastrophic. People have managed to balance their needs underway with differing proportions of water generator, solar panel and wind turbine. Trouble is that the average medium size boat cruiser cooks on gas and just needs power for the autopilot, navigation lights, electronics, fridge for some and a few bits and bobs whereas these guys cook on an induction plate plus I imagine have lot of gadgets.

It all puzzles me too, @Panoramix.  Where was all their energy going?

Unless they were using a lot of heat (for cooking or water or heated cabins), and/or their autopilot is exceptionally thirsty, solar alone should have been enough for the remaining needs: electronics, comms, and lighting.

It's a pity that Jimmy didn't give more detail of the boat's energy budget.  The limited info which he did provide is unhelpful, because it is both scanty and confused about units.

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The Uma people noted, after their system was sorted, a disappointingly low regeneration capacity as well.
I suspect the longer term solution will be electric motors and seperate water generators.

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7 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

The Uma people noted, after their system was sorted, a disappointingly low regeneration capacity as well.
I suspect the longer term solution will be electric motors and seperate water generators.

Yes, that could be a way. Unlike UMA, the Salona boat has a controllable variable pitch propeller so in theory it should allow to "change gear" and optimise for regen. May be Cornell didn't have this one. I suspect that his installation is really power hungry and that he hasn't got enough solar to feed it.

IMO to stand a chance balancing your energy budget, you need to cover everything else except the motor (plus a bit to be on the safe side!)  with solar and wind and use the regen as a top up that covers energy for propulsion. If you start to rely on regen for everyday needs, it means that as soon as you stop moving which is something that happens often (anchoring or lack of wind), you are depleting your batteries.

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13 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

The Uma people noted, after their system was sorted, a disappointingly low regeneration capacity as well.
I suspect the longer term solution will be electric motors and seperate water generators.

The W1DA prototype had what I think is called a ducted propeller, used for both propulsion and regen.  Please correct me if that is the wrong term, but it was a large diameter unit (IIRC, about 2 feet diameter) housed within a cowl, all stern-mounted on a flip-up leg like a Watt&Sea generator.  That shift to a bigger prop seems to me to be a good approach for regen.

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35 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

It's a pity that Jimmy didn't give more detail of the boat's energy budget.  The limited info which he did provide is unhelpful, because it is both scanty and confused about units.

I had hoped for a comment about boat speed reduction when loaded. However if the output is a pathetic 1/2 horsepower from two motors I suppose the speed change of a big boat will be miniscule.

I suspect they need much larger propellers. This stuff is not easy to engineer. For example, look at the insane level of engineering Tesla had to do to make their car useful, reliable and competitive. Unlikely to happen in the marine industry where dishonest marketing meets starry-eyed dreamers.

The best idea hidden in Jimmy’s story is to not take your suburban lifestyle of conspicuous consumption with you on a cruise.

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2 minutes ago, El Borracho said:

The best idea hidden in Jimmy’s story is to not take your suburban lifestyle of conspicuous consumption with you on a cruise.

^^^^ this.

Power generation is expensive and difficult.  So reduce consumption.

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18 minutes ago, El Borracho said:

I suspect they need much larger propellers.

I imagine that, as for wind, it is more or less linear with swept area (hence power ratings of commercial wind generators expressed in MW whereas a boat one is in W), so roughly when you double the diameter, power output is multiplied by 4... but then drag also!

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39 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

The W1DA prototype had what I think is called a ducted propeller, used for both propulsion and regen.  Please correct me if that is the wrong term, but it was a large diameter unit (IIRC, about 2 feet diameter) housed within a cowl, all stern-mounted on a flip-up leg like a Watt&Sea generator.  That shift to a bigger prop seems to me to be a good approach for regen.

Cool boat, I don't know how I missed it when it came out!

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1 hour ago, El Borracho said:

The best idea hidden in Jimmy’s story is to not take your suburban lifestyle of conspicuous consumption with you on a cruise.

My semi-mentor Evans Starzinger explained this to me long ago. I agree.

For one year during my divorce, I lived aboard and have hardly any possessions. It was totally liberating. Wife 2.0 is the exact opposite. Practically every single thing she owns has some sort of deep, sentimental value. Admittedly, most of it is family heirlooms so I get where she's coming from but even her sister busts her chops about clinging to stuff.

This is why I can't get her to commit to chucking it all and going rogue.

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I was very surprised that it didn't have some solar capacity from the factory, I'm sure 99% of people buying an electric powered boat would be doing that fairly promptly.

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1 minute ago, Panoramix said:

Cool boat, I don't know how I missed it when it came out!

@Panoramix, I agree that the W1DA is cool.  However, I think it is a brilliant but failed idea.

I crawled all over it a boat show, and had a long chat with the lovely people behind it.  The idea is great, but a lot of the details are under-developed, and for my purposes there is big design flaw which comes down to a need for more beam or more length. The head is aft and the saloon is pushed quite far forward.  With the swing keel;trunk in the middle of the saloon, the saloon benches are also pushed outboard, which forced them to use a wide coachroof.  On a boat with only 2.89m of beam on a 9.5m-long hull, that leaves horribly narrow side-decks ... and it also leaves the forward end of the settees so narrow as to be almost unusable.

Since launching the prototype 4 years ago, they don't seem to have sold any boats.  And much as I love Mayo, I think that their idea to base themselves there was a mistake: too far way from the rest of the boatbuilding industry, which screws up the supply chain and removes them from experienced workers.

If I had the money, I'd love to work with them to build a different boat that took their ideas and fixed the problems.

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13 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Since launching the prototype 4 years ago, they don't seem to have sold any boats.  And much as I love Mayo, I think that their idea to base themselves there was a mistake: too far way from the rest of the boatbuilding industry, which screws up the supply chain and removes them from experienced workers.

Yes, the "Breton mob" are hard to beat on the boatbuilding ecosystem front and to challenge them Irish yards/companies need to work together. The Breton guys all know each other, have worked on all kind of racing boats so will know where to find the resources to solve every possible issue in their way. I know that at least quite of few of them would like to clean up their industry (spending too much time at sea makes you philosophical and aware of environmental changes and once you start thinking about it, it is easy to come to the conclusion that we've been over the top!) so as soon as they feel the zero emission boat becomes possible from a commercial perspective, they will jump feet first into the market I imagine.

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3 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Yes, the "Breton mob" are hard to beat on the boatbuilding ecosystem front and to challenge them Irish yards/companies need to work together. The Breton guys all know each other, have worked on all kind of racing boats so will know where to find the resources to solve every possible issue in their way.

Pano, the problem is that Ireland has very little boatbuilding, at least wrt sailing boats.  There is Safehaven making sophisticated powerboats, and O'Sullivan's building small leisure powerboats, but that's about it these days. 

The Crosshaven Boatyard in Cork used to build fine custom yachts, and I think it was them who had a run production in the late 70s building the Club Shamrock, a production cruiser-race Ron Holland half-tonner.  But they gave up building in the 1980s.

Somewhere in Limerick, there was a yard called  Fiberman in the early 1970s which built the Shipman 28, but that's long gone.

In Northern Ireland, there was the wonderful Billy Brown which in the 70s and early 80s built the Ruffian 23 (about 200 boats), plus smaller numbers of a 30-footer and a very fine 28-footer.  But they went broke n he early 80s.

Then there was BJ Marine which in the 80s built small numbers of the Shipman 28, Ruffian 23 & 850.  But they stopped building at least 25 years ago.

And that's about it.  There isn't much sailing in Mayo (just two clubs), and no history of commercial yacht-building.  So the W1DA folks have located their yard in a lovely place, but a boatbuilding desert.  There are some patches of small-scale renovations and custom self-builds, but no yards as such.

So, yes -- we await the Bretons taking up these technologies. Given the history of brilliant innovation by Breton boatbuilders in the last five decades, I'd say they will be the ones to make a go of it.

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@TwoLegged from what you say, they should have gone to Cork and may be should have started with a smaller easier to build and market boat (more like a seascape).

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5 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

@TwoLegged from what you say, they should have gone to Cork and may be should have started with a smaller easier to build and market boat (more like a seascape).

If they had to go to Ireland, then Cork would indeed be better, 'cos there is lots more sailing there.  But it still has v little boatbuilding: even something simpler with a bigger market wouldn't have a pool of experienced people to recruit.  There are clear business reasons why every previous Irish production yacht-builder in the GRP era has been basically a one-model company which never built an export market and folded when their one product went out of fashion.  The local market is too small.

The mostly-English W1DA people were very open about why they went to Mayo:  personal connection, and support from the local development people in Mayo.  All very nice, but such things should be secondary factors in business location. 

 

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59 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

But it still has v little boatbuilding: even something simpler with a bigger market wouldn't have a pool of experienced people to recruit.  There are clear business reasons why every previous Irish production yacht-builder in the GRP era has been basically a one-model company which never built an export market and folded when their one product went out of fashion.  The local market is too small.

I agree with you that it is harder, nevertheless when you look at yards from Eastern Europe, I think that it is possible to start mostly from scratch if you find a niche and start small. Boatbuilding skills are similar to boat repairs ones and it might even be easier to build boats than to repair them so being in a place like Cork would help. On top of this, Ireland has a very positive image in Brittany, Breton people tend to see Ireland as the cool big brother so a determined company might manage to poach some expertise without paying exorbitant rates! Nevertheless the boatbuilding industry is a tough one.... you would need very good business people to pull this one out...

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15 hours ago, Crash said:

If your doing dual motors, why not dual rudders too? 

Why not two keels to protect the motors and rudders? Why not two hulls to support all that two-ness?

6 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Power generation is expensive and difficult.  So reduce consumption.

The advantage of electric is the elimination of diesel (and cooling). But you still have to cook, so you need a lot of electric generation or propane. And (outside of the tropics) you still want heat. I've never seen ANY electric prototype that can somehow gather enough energy to heat the boat at latitudes north of the mid-temperate zone. So now you have diesel again. Or a LOT of jackets and sweaters and a very moist cabin. Sure, people sailed for centuries without these things, but not for pleasure, as it was not a pleasant experience. 

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10 minutes ago, DDW said:

Why not two keels to protect the motors and rudders? Why not two hulls to support all that two-ness?

The advantage of electric is the elimination of diesel (and cooling). But you still have to cook, so you need a lot of electric generation or propane. And (outside of the tropics) you still want heat. I've never seen ANY electric prototype that can somehow gather enough energy to heat the boat at latitudes north of the mid-temperate zone. So now you have diesel again. Or a LOT of jackets and sweaters and a very moist cabin. Sure, people sailed for centuries without these things, but not for pleasure, as it was not a pleasant experience. 

... or a wood stove!

The moist is due to poor insulation that generates condensation, on a sandwich boat or a wooden boat, it doesn't happen.

Here many boats don't have heating and it is fine from April to October.

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Just now, Panoramix said:

... or a wood stove!

You know in time of pellets, how viable is that actually?
I know some cruisers do take wooden ovens perfectly fine. But pellets is another level of convenience in storage(can fit that bag into any nook and cranny, no additional gear required) and actually firing?
Plus compared to gas or diesel it is not exactly a fire hazard in any way?

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I suspect that propane is the solution for cooking and heat. Propane forced air heaters are available, you would need big tanks to cruise in cold climates, but for the average boaters use it should be fine and much simpler than diesel generators. You could even bring a portable propane generator for emergency use

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2 minutes ago, allweather said:

You know in time of pellets, how viable is that actually?
I know some cruisers do take wooden ovens perfectly fine. But pellets is another level of convenience in storage(can fit that bag into any nook and cranny, no additional gear required) and actually firing?
Plus compared to gas or diesel it is not exactly a fire hazard in any way?

Yes, interesting idea, pellets stove you see in houses tend to be complicated, I don't know if there is a low tech option.

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Just now, Panoramix said:

Yes pellets stove you see in houses tend to be complicated, I don't know if there is a low tech option.

I'd agree: pellets are pretty bulky, not easy to handle, must be kept very dry, the boilers really need long cycle times for efficiency and durability (we have a buffer tank with half a tonne of water in it that acts as an intermediate heat store). No current distribution infrastructure at harbours, of course, though bagged pellets could be viable...

 Not saying it's impossible but there are a number of significant challenges that would need to be addressed, and the market might be quite limited.

Cheers,

               W.

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22 hours ago, Guvacine said:

Electrical as a replacement for diesel in terms of reliability and maintenance? I think you are delusional. Compare: brand new diesel professionally installed vs brand new electrical motor/battery system professionally installed. Which one will require significant maintenance first? The electrical components every time.

This is the quote from Jimmy Cornell's "electrical expert":

"And by the way, after 18 months and an Atlantic crossing, my own regeneration system, based on an electric motor with shaft drive and folding propeller, is still not working to my satisfaction. In fact, it doesn’t work at all.”

This is a recurring tale, hence my comment above. I think that boosters of new tech electrical boat propulsion bear some responsibility for the litany of failed electrical conversions/systems - just saying.

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I did not think of that much going into it... More just on how wood can hold insects in a bad case. Not much of an issue for plastic boats but still.
Whereas pellets are easy to just drop in a few more or less depending on burn time. Would sealed bags suffice for dry storage? Use them for just about anything else afterall.

Took a quick look around and apparently for a more sophisticated oven, compared to the higher efficiency electric pellet ones similar to the big units in houses, the tiny house movement has made some inroads. Appears to be still quite heavy at 60 or so kgs and by design not exactly a big market either. But certainly more than boat owners.(that don't have large trawlers ;)

 

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Talk about reinventing the wheel.... Our little cod, produced by navigator stove works, is the same stove from the Lunenberg patterns he is licensed to use.  Don't know how old but certainly in the hundred range. Same BTUs as our dickenson adriatic, tiny footprint burns wood or charcoal.  Have found the plumbed hot water side is too much of a pain due to inconsistency in demand but a big ass kettle is about as low tech as you can go.  Heating a boat is easy if you hate trees.

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52 minutes ago, DDW said:
7 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Power generation is expensive and difficult.  So reduce consumption.

The advantage of electric is the elimination of diesel (and cooling). But you still have to cook, so you need a lot of electric generation or propane. And (outside of the tropics) you still want heat. I've never seen ANY electric prototype that can somehow gather enough energy to heat the boat at latitudes north of the mid-temperate zone. So now you have diesel again. Or a LOT of jackets and sweaters and a very moist cabin. Sure, people sailed for centuries without these things, but not for pleasure, as it was not a pleasant experience. 

DDW, if you use diesel only for heat, you need a lot less of it than for propulsion, and the systems are much simpler.

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42 minutes ago, DDW said:

Why not two keels to protect the motors and rudders?

Lots of boats in the world running around with 2 props and two rudders.  Big trawlers, express cruisers, sport fishing boats, destroyers, etc, etc...My point was only if you're not after racing performance, than maybe the extra drag, etc, is offset by the gain in close quarters maneuvering... 

Hull-Prop Relationship - Southern Boating

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3 minutes ago, Crash said:

Lots of boats in the world running around with 2 props and two rudders.  Big trawlers, express cruisers, sport fishing boats, destroyers, etc, etc...My point was only if you're not after racing performance, than maybe the extra drag, etc, is offset by the gain in close quarters maneuvering... 

But how many of them are sailing boats?

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None, but why does that matter in this particular case?  Once you've gone and stuck two drive pods on a sailboat...why not have 2 rudders?

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The energy content of wood pellets is approximately 14.4-20.3 MJ/kg  (Wikipedia)

Diesel is 45.6 MJ/kg - but also has higher density of about 0.85 versus wood pellets 0.65-0.70

So for the very best case wood pellets are about 36% the energy by volume. If you have 50L (13 gallons) diesel for heating, you'll need 139L of wood pellets. That's like 2 very large backpacks in terms of volume for our American readers.

I think getting rid of propane to cook on is dumb for electric boats (given current state of batteries). Liquid hydrocarbons are very energy dense. Cooking takes a lot of energy. Save your electrons for moving the boat or running the electrics, not for boiling water.

Real world numbers:
Say you want to boil 2L of water for pasta. Heating from 20C to 100C takes 0.36 kWh. Add a bit because you also have to keep it boiling for 15 minutes or so. Call it 0.5 kWh.

And you boil 1L of water for coffee in the morning - 0.36 kWh

Sailing Uma has 100A.hr x 12 batteries (@ 12V).  That's 14.4 kW.h assuming total discharge of the bank. Breakfast and dinner = 6% of your bank's capacity.

 

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20 hours ago, Panoramix said:

In the med there is little point in having a shallow draft boat, the issue is more to find places that are shallow enough to anchor!

That torpedo T keel will cause many problems 

its always dramatic when a boat leaves its berth , drops the ground line , then motors out as the ground line fouls the leading torpedo 

hilarious to see crew  fly off the deck when the boat  instantly stops 

stick with a L keel

maximium draft is in relation to the height of the owner

when hauled out you must be able to reach the waterline for service  without costly scaffolding 

6.5 ft is a good number 

less than 6 ft is dangerous . Then Rudder draft equals keels draft . If you Touch  bottom maneuvering in the harbor  the rudder is destroyed 

 

 

keep the lead down low in a L bulb to produce a light stiff boat 

twin wheels is paradise ...excellent cockpit ergonomics 

mainsheet behind the helmsman is big trouble ..don’t even  go there 

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PO bequeathed me an uninstalled  wood heater.  I traded it in on a used propane furnace. (If I had a diesel motor, I'd have got diesel heat.) The only advantage I can see to the wood heater is the theoretical capability of stopping in any cove to "harvest" more fuel.  

I've lived with wood-burning heat most of my life.  It's labor intensive, messy, smoky, and takes a month of my life every year to manufacture fuel.  Well, I have to do some that anyway, in the course of pruning the orchard and general maintenance around the ranch.  It's good exercise, if you have the spare time, but I'm ready to retire from all of that.    

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1 hour ago, toddster said:

PO bequeathed me an uninstalled  wood heater.  I traded it in on a used propane furnace. (If I had a diesel motor, I'd have got diesel heat.) The only advantage I can see to the wood heater is the theoretical capability of stopping in any cove to "harvest" more fuel.  

I've lived with wood-burning heat most of my life.  It's labor intensive, messy, smoky, and takes a month of my life every year to manufacture fuel.  Well, I have to do some that anyway, in the course of pruning the orchard and general maintenance around the ranch.  It's good exercise, if you have the spare time, but I'm ready to retire from all of that.    

We heat entirely with wood at home (i.e., house) as well.  The boat is a hell of a lot more sophisticated 21st century tech, using diesel and a small 12v fan attached to a heat scavenger and duct off the chimney pipe to bring heat to v-berth.

Re: on board, wait a sec - are wood-fired boat engines a thing?  If so, that way you could power the engine AND have your heat with one renewable fuel source:-)

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Sure they exist. They are called "steam engines". Though most don't use wood, they've switched to coal to be more modern.

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

less than 6 ft is dangerous . Then Rudder draft equals keels draft . If you Touch  bottom maneuvering in the harbor  the rudder is destroyed

Bullshit. I've touched bottom at least 3 times and haven't damaged a thing.

WRT wood vs hydrocarbons, Zonker has made the point. Also if you think pelletised wood is somehow green you're kidding yourselves. Look at the amount of energy that goes into getting you those pellets. If you're going to burn wood, cut it yourself, preferably with a hand-powered bow saw.

My friends did exactly that so it certainly can be done. But they had a kerosene stove and a 50HP Nanni diesel. They weren't insane or martyrs to the cause...

FKT

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4 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Sure they exist. They are called "steam engines". Though most don't use wood, they've switched to coal to be more modern.

And you can see them coming from a long way away....

Love to see someone try to fit a steam engine, especially wood powered, into say a 12m sailboat. Not even the hardened anti-modernity types are that stupid.

FKT

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As a matter of fact, my Great Grand-Dad did used to sell cordwood to the steamboats when he was a young man.  I still have the remains of his equipment (hand and horse power) but the landing is now buried under the interstate highway.  

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4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

.The moist is due to poor insulation that generates condensation, on a sandwich boat or a wooden boat, it doesn't happen.

Here many boats don't have heating and it is fine from April to October.

Apparently you have never cruised in a moist cool climate. And then for only 1/2 the year. 

4 hours ago, steele said:

I suspect that propane is the solution for cooking and heat. Propane forced air heaters are available, you would need big tanks to cruise in cold climates, but for the average boaters use it should be fine and much simpler than diesel generators. You could even bring a portable propane generator for emergency use

Propane might be fine for a weekend cruise. Not good for even a few weeks at higher latitudes. I can cook for several months on a 10 lb tank. But a heater will go through that in a couple of days. 

3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

DDW, if you use diesel only for heat, you need a lot less of it than for propulsion, and the systems are much simpler.

While this is true, you still have the diesel smell onboard. I'm an electrical engineer by training. I would love an electric auxiliary - just as soon as it is practical. Someday it will be and you have to admire these pioneers trying - and failing - as they test the waters. Today there are two fundamental technology problems: energy density and energy recovery. The latter could be addressed but you would need very large props for generation and be willing to give up a couple of knots or more of speed to get there. Also cover the decks with solar, and be willing to sit empty and idle at times. Battery technology hasn't moved much in 20 years, though it has gotten cheaper. Maybe in another 20 years. 

That torpedo keel is strictly for styling points on the brochure - it has no practical advantage otherwise. 

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The hard truth that keeps getting danced around in this and all the other similar threads is there is almost no benefit between a boat without a engine and the current electrical options.  It's sort of the Prius argument for going green.  You could run your 70's Impala for decades and not have the impact of the new Prius getting produced.  Likewise you could buy a sound boat with basic electrical and solar and pay to get towed into every harbor you go to and still be money and impact ahead decades vs installing a hybrid electrical drive system.  

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For steam propulsion hard to beat SF waterfront pretty awesome group of old and functional boat.

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