Grrr...

How to Economically Destroy your Country as Quickly as Possible

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So, let's get something straight.

China has approximately 4x our population.  They have the ability to get more raw materials, out produce, out engineer, and out program us at every turn.  It's simple statistics.  They will end up with 4 times the smart people, too. We are going to lose an economic war with China.  Period.  Not giving them our tech means forcing them to create their own.  And they already have poor imitations.  Their smart phone market isn't going to suddenly go tit-s up.  They'll just have second class hardware for a little while.  Then they will pass us.  And the United states will be left with outdated technology that no one wants.

What we are doing, right now to China, is FORCING them to catch up technologically as quickly as possible.  All the while, our laws still allow them to purchase pretty much as many companies of ours as they want.  Our response is the most stupid response imaginable.  We are literally begging them to surpass us.

What is the alternative?  Doing what many other countries already do.  Pass laws barring foreign entities from owning more than a certain percent of our companies.  Pass laws requiring certain amounts of tech and content be manufactured HERE.  Then sit back and continue engineering our asses off.  We will lose this fight.  In fact we have already lost this fight.  You really think China can't engineer their own smart phones (already have), their own chips to run them (already have), and put them in their populations hands? (Already do).

If there is one thing I hate most about the United States of America, it's our repeated focus on the short term gain, while ignoring the long term loss.  We squander the assets of our companies to maximize their stock prices.  We break apart companies in the name of share-holder value.  And we go to war with China when we've already lost.

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12 minutes ago, Grrr... said:

So, let's get something straight.

China has approximately 4x our population.  They have the ability to get more raw materials, out produce, out engineer, and out program us at every turn.  It's simple statistics.  They will end up with 4 times the smart people, too. We are going to lose an economic war with China.  Period.  Not giving them our tech means forcing them to create their own.  And they already have poor imitations.  Their smart phone market isn't going to suddenly go tit-s up.  They'll just have second class hardware for a little while.  Then they will pass us.  And the United states will be left with outdated technology that no one wants.

What we are doing, right now to China, is FORCING them to catch up technologically as quickly as possible.  All the while, our laws still allow them to purchase pretty much as many companies of ours as they want.  Our response is the most stupid response imaginable.  We are literally begging them to surpass us.

What is the alternative?  Doing what many other countries already do.  Pass laws barring foreign entities from owning more than a certain percent of our companies.  Pass laws requiring certain amounts of tech and content be manufactured HERE.  Then sit back and continue engineering our asses off.  We will lose this fight.  In fact we have already lost this fight.  You really think China can't engineer their own smart phones (already have), their own chips to run them (already have), and put them in their populations hands? (Already do).

If there is one thing I hate most about the United States of America, it's our repeated focus on the short term gain, while ignoring the long term loss.  We squander the assets of our companies to maximize their stock prices.  We break apart companies in the name of share-holder value.  And we go to war with China when we've already lost.

Two problems to deal with first.

Civil unrest.

Covid 19.

start there and get back to us.

 

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19 minutes ago, Keith said:

Two problems to deal with first.

Civil unrest.

Covid 19.

start there and get back to us.

 

We can focus on more than 2 things at once.  Most of the civil unrest will frankly disappear the day Trump does.  Covid 19 - well - other than drastically streamlining vaccine dispersal, there isn't much else to do.

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The Best Americans want Their money and They want it NOW. They are entitled to it. 

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2 hours ago, Grrr... said:

China has approximately 4x our population.  They have the ability to get more raw materials, out produce, out engineer, and out program us at every turn.  It's simple statistics.  They will end up with 4 times the smart people, too.

The way things look right now they already have a lot more than 4X the smart people.

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2 hours ago, Grrr... said:

So, let's get something straight.

China has approximately 4x our population.  They have the ability to get more raw materials, out produce, out engineer, and out program us at every turn.  It's simple statistics.  They will end up with 4 times the smart people, too. We are going to lose an economic war with China.  Period.  Not giving them our tech means forcing them to create their own.  And they already have poor imitations.  Their smart phone market isn't going to suddenly go tit-s up.  They'll just have second class hardware for a little while.  Then they will pass us.  And the United states will be left with outdated technology that no one wants.

What we are doing, right now to China, is FORCING them to catch up technologically as quickly as possible.  All the while, our laws still allow them to purchase pretty much as many companies of ours as they want.  Our response is the most stupid response imaginable.  We are literally begging them to surpass us.

What is the alternative?  Doing what many other countries already do.  Pass laws barring foreign entities from owning more than a certain percent of our companies.  Pass laws requiring certain amounts of tech and content be manufactured HERE.  Then sit back and continue engineering our asses off.  We will lose this fight.  In fact we have already lost this fight.  You really think China can't engineer their own smart phones (already have), their own chips to run them (already have), and put them in their populations hands? (Already do).

If there is one thing I hate most about the United States of America, it's our repeated focus on the short term gain, while ignoring the long term loss.  We squander the assets of our companies to maximize their stock prices.  We break apart companies in the name of share-holder value.  And we go to war with China when we've already lost.

I think you underestimate the Chinese. Their use of smartphones very much exceeds that in the US. Last year the government had to pass a law saying that stores had to accept cash since payment by phone was just the norm. Social media platforms are generally better and more widely used. Even their use of smartphone technology in contact tracing and the like is very advanced.

Something that is not getting the attention it deserves in the West are various programs in China designed to improve the research capabilities of their universities. Project 211 poured billions of dollars into more than one hundred universities, while more recently something called C9 is focussing on nine schools at the top of the heap to make them into Harvards and Oxfords of China. Already the rankings of Chinese universities in Asia has dramatically improved as have global rankings.

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2 hours ago, Grrr... said:

So, let's get something straight.

China has approximately 4x our population.  They have the ability to get more raw materials, out produce, out engineer, and out program us at every turn.  It's simple statistics.  They will end up with 4 times the smart people, too. We are going to lose an economic war with China.  Period.  Not giving them our tech means forcing them to create their own.  And they already have poor imitations.  Their smart phone market isn't going to suddenly go tit-s up.  They'll just have second class hardware for a little while.  Then they will pass us.  And the United states will be left with outdated technology that no one wants.

What we are doing, right now to China, is FORCING them to catch up technologically as quickly as possible.  All the while, our laws still allow them to purchase pretty much as many companies of ours as they want.  Our response is the most stupid response imaginable.  We are literally begging them to surpass us.

What is the alternative?  Doing what many other countries already do.  Pass laws barring foreign entities from owning more than a certain percent of our companies.  Pass laws requiring certain amounts of tech and content be manufactured HERE.  Then sit back and continue engineering our asses off.  We will lose this fight.  In fact we have already lost this fight.  You really think China can't engineer their own smart phones (already have), their own chips to run them (already have), and put them in their populations hands? (Already do).

If there is one thing I hate most about the United States of America, it's our repeated focus on the short term gain, while ignoring the long term loss.  We squander the assets of our companies to maximize their stock prices.  We break apart companies in the name of share-holder value.  And we go to war with China when we've already lost.

A.) China has been stealing ours and other's technology for years. They already have one of the best phones out there HAUWIE.

B.) China is one of the countries that has laws mandating domestic manufacturing from foreign corporations.  Just ask GM how much they spent to build the Buick plant in 2008 when they were asking congress for a bailout. 

C.) What China hasn't stolen already they have no problem paying for it.... politicians included. 

D.) China has been capitalizing on the emerging markets, Africa being one for years...  solidifying their position as a preferred trading partner. 

During and after the WWII my father spent a lot time there in places where there was no electricity, running water, pave roads, and other modern convinces...    As he always said, "bring China into the modern world and they will own it.."

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The question isn’t about falling out of first place. The very real concern is by 2030 the USA won’t be in the top ten 

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3 hours ago, Grrr... said:

If there is one thing I hate most about the United States of America, it's our repeated focus on the short term gain, while ignoring the long term loss.  We squander the assets of our companies to maximize their stock prices.  We break apart companies in the name of share-holder value.  And we go to war with China when we've already lost.

This short-term gain mentality is the staple of the Harvard Business School. approach to business. It's gradually being undone, but I've yet to meet anyone with an MBA who either didn't follow the mantra of the short-term gain, or else had to purge their brainwash against the long-term play.

And we didn't just force them to catch up, we literally GAVE them the technologies and the means to produce it. In the early 2000s, back when business people still didn't trust science in any way, G.W. Bush removed every last protection of the photovoltaics industry that we built in this country, and he forced the industry to compete suddenly on an unfair cost parity with fossil fuels, where the fossil fuel industry was given enormous subsidies by backloading their costs to the taxpayers, but photovolatics (and to a lesser degree, wind and water) were left to compete with no subsidies at all. The near immediate result was that our manufacturing operations for this industry, from roll-to-roll manufacturing, crystalline manufacturing and amorphous deposition were all literally (and I mean literally) packed onto container ships and sent to Asia. Since then, China has invested an average of $40 billion per year into that industry, and now they own it.

As for cell phones ... South Korea seems to be have that market tied up pretty well, the USA likely never had the balls to get into VLSI for consumer products on that level. But the blowback is that we now no longer even have a sufficient domestic power electronics and even electronics manufacturing base to keep our satellites and military tech in orbit without having to back-door the whole process by buying that stuff from Asia. From a strategic industries point of view, it's bad.

But that's nothing compared to the actual secret sauce that makes all of these electric cars, batteries, high efficiency motors and electronics actually work, the Rare Earth Elements ... China controls about 98.5% of that market, increasingly much of it in Africa, where they pollute with near impunity by doing business with broken tribes, since the USA has clearly shown that we are no longer interested in interfacing with people who have dark skin unless we can "interface" with them through the tip of a Hellfire missile.

What you hate about the USA isn't the politicians, and it isn't even our business people. If you must hate anything, hate ourselves, who don't ask the kind of questions that you do here, as we collectively sit on our fat asses watching Netflix and the news of the day, sucking down politics like opium and not really giving a rat's blue asshole about how the Rare Earth Elements get into our hand, about where the water comes which grows the wheat in the pizza crust. As long as we get to blame it on someone else, and those politicians and businesses suck up our blame like kittens at a bowl of a cream, all is good.

I don't see any change of understanding the value of the long-term play of the people who currently own and run things. They were raised on the magic of Immediate Gratification. The best we can hope at this point is the new generations will get it, that they'll be willing to live lean for the good of the people around them and they'll allow themselves to move to a more sustainable path.

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13 minutes ago, mikewof said:

This short-term gain mentality is the staple of the Harvard Business School. approach to business. It's gradually being undone, but I've yet to meet anyone with an MBA who either didn't follow the mantra of the short-term gain, or else had to purge their brainwash against the long-term play.

And we didn't just force them to catch up, we literally GAVE them the technologies and the means to produce it. In the early 2000s, back when business people still didn't trust science in any way, G.W. Bush removed every last protection of the photovoltaics industry that we built in this country, and he forced the industry to compete suddenly on an unfair cost parity with fossil fuels, where the fossil fuel industry was given enormous subsidies by backloading their costs to the taxpayers, but photovolatics (and to a lesser degree, wind and water) were left to compete with no subsidies at all. The near immediate result was that our manufacturing operations for this industry, from roll-to-roll manufacturing, crystalline manufacturing and amorphous deposition were all literally (and I mean literally) packed onto container ships and sent to Asia. Since then, China has invested an average of $40 billion per year into that industry, and now they own it.

As for cell phones ... South Korea seems to be have that market tied up pretty well, the USA likely never had the balls to get into VLSI for consumer products on that level. But the blowback is that we now no longer even have a sufficient domestic power electronics and even electronics manufacturing base to keep our satellites and military tech in orbit without having to back-door the whole process by buying that stuff from Asia. From a strategic industries point of view, it's bad.

But that's nothing compared to the actual secret sauce that makes all of these electric cars, batteries, high efficiency motors and electronics actually work, the Rare Earth Elements ... China controls about 98.5% of that market, increasingly much of it in Africa, where they pollute with near impunity by doing business with broken tribes, since the USA has clearly shown that we are no longer interested in interfacing with people who have dark skin unless we can "interface" with them through the tip of a Hellfire missile.

What you hate about the USA isn't the politicians, and it isn't even our business people. If you must hate anything, hate ourselves, who don't ask the kind of questions that you do here, as we collectively sit on our fat asses watching Netflix and the news of the day, sucking down politics like opium and not really giving a rat's blue asshole about how the Rare Earth Elements get into our hand, about where the water comes which grows the wheat in the pizza crust. As long as we get to blame it on someone else, and those politicians and businesses suck up our blame like kittens at a bowl of a cream, all is good.

I don't see any change of understanding the value of the long-term play of the people who currently own and run things. They were raised on the magic of Immediate Gratification. The best we can hope at this point is the new generations will get it, that they'll be willing to live lean for the good of the people around them and they'll allow themselves to move to a more sustainable path.

I DO see hope in the younger generations.  They're already more interested in long term things like their own health and the environment.  But we may destroy ourselves before they come to power.  It's going to be another 20 years before they get to power.

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17 minutes ago, nacradriver said:

A.) China has been stealing ours and other's technology for years. They already have one of the best phones out there HAUWIE.

B.) China is one of the countries that has laws mandating domestic manufacturing from foreign corporations.  Just ask GM how much they spent to build the Buick plant in 2008 when they were asking congress for a bailout. 

C.) What China hasn't stolen already they have no problem paying for it.... politicians included. 

D.) China has been capitalizing on the emerging markets, Africa being one for years...  solidifying their position as a preferred trading partner. 

During and after the WWII my father spent a lot time there in places where there was no electricity, running water, pave roads, and other modern convinces...    As he always said, "bring China into the modern world and they will own it.."

If you don't want to look like a right-wing rube, it might be good to at least get the brand names correct, it's Huawei. And yes, gov't (military) owned and predatory.

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18 minutes ago, mikewof said:

This short-term gain mentality is the staple of the Harvard Business School. approach to business. It's gradually being undone, but I've yet to meet anyone with an MBA who either didn't follow the mantra of the short-term gain, or else had to purge their brainwash against the long-term play.

And we didn't just force them to catch up, we literally GAVE them the technologies and the means to produce it. In the early 2000s, back when business people still didn't trust science in any way, G.W. Bush removed every last protection of the photovoltaics industry that we built in this country, and he forced the industry to compete suddenly on an unfair cost parity with fossil fuels, where the fossil fuel industry was given enormous subsidies by backloading their costs to the taxpayers, but photovolatics (and to a lesser degree, wind and water) were left to compete with no subsidies at all. The near immediate result was that our manufacturing operations for this industry, from roll-to-roll manufacturing, crystalline manufacturing and amorphous deposition were all literally (and I mean literally) packed onto container ships and sent to Asia. Since then, China has invested an average of $40 billion per year into that industry, and now they own it.

As for cell phones ... South Korea seems to be have that market tied up pretty well, the USA likely never had the balls to get into VLSI for consumer products on that level. But the blowback is that we now no longer even have a sufficient domestic power electronics and even electronics manufacturing base to keep our satellites and military tech in orbit without having to back-door the whole process by buying that stuff from Asia. From a strategic industries point of view, it's bad.

But that's nothing compared to the actual secret sauce that makes all of these electric cars, batteries, high efficiency motors and electronics actually work, the Rare Earth Elements ... China controls about 98.5% of that market, increasingly much of it in Africa, where they pollute with near impunity by doing business with broken tribes, since the USA has clearly shown that we are no longer interested in interfacing with people who have dark skin unless we can "interface" with them through the tip of a Hellfire missile.

What you hate about the USA isn't the politicians, and it isn't even our business people. If you must hate anything, hate ourselves, who don't ask the kind of questions that you do here, as we collectively sit on our fat asses watching Netflix and the news of the day, sucking down politics like opium and not really giving a rat's blue asshole about how the Rare Earth Elements get into our hand, about where the water comes which grows the wheat in the pizza crust. As long as we get to blame it on someone else, and those politicians and businesses suck up our blame like kittens at a bowl of a cream, all is good.

I don't see any change of understanding the value of the long-term play of the people who currently own and run things. They were raised on the magic of Immediate Gratification. The best we can hope at this point is the new generations will get it, that they'll be willing to live lean for the good of the people around them and they'll allow themselves to move to a more sustainable path.

With one caveat, for some reason, the US is still THE go-to place for long-term investment in innovation. There's nothing ST about venture-capital. Private equity is predatory bullshit by&large(EBITDA!!! EBITDA!!!), but venture money has some pretty long term horizons. Make no mistake, the $s eventually MUST be there, but it isn't qtr by qtr.

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Trump has shown us the fastest method to ruin america:

Cut taxes on the rich, borrow money from china to pay for bloat.

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Spotted on Twitter with the tag, We are all Keynesians now. To be fair, the Chamber of Commerce has been moving left for awhile now. I would say they're centrist yet, but credit. For example, they opposed Shitstain's executive order ending DACA in 2018, which has largely run into a brick wall in the courts.

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42 minutes ago, nacradriver said:

A.) China has been stealing ours and other's technology for years. They already have one of the best phones out there HAUWIE.

B.) China is one of the countries that has laws mandating domestic manufacturing from foreign corporations.  Just ask GM how much they spent to build the Buick plant in 2008 when they were asking congress for a bailout. 

C.) What China hasn't stolen already they have no problem paying for it.... politicians included. 

D.) China has been capitalizing on the emerging markets, Africa being one for years...  solidifying their position as a preferred trading partner. 

During and after the WWII my father spent a lot time there in places where there was no electricity, running water, pave roads, and other modern convinces...    As he always said, "bring China into the modern world and they will own it.."

The reality is that China has owned the world for most of the last thousand years except for the last two centuries. Things are just returning to normal now since China has had effective government for the last 40 years or so. Stealing technology is not nearly as important as it was 25 years ago, they are very good at creating their own.

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40 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

With one caveat, for some reason, the US is still THE go-to place for long-term investment in innovation. There's nothing ST about venture-capital. Private equity is predatory bullshit by&large(EBITDA!!! EBITDA!!!), but venture money has some pretty long term horizons. Make no mistake, the $s eventually MUST be there, but it isn't qtr by qtr.

In which innovation industries do you see that?

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A substantial fraction of the US population exists in some alternate fact-free fantasy land.   That can't be a good indicator for future economic development.  

Polices that concentrate the wealth of a nation in the hands of a ruling oligarchy isn't helpful either.  

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35 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

Eru-WMJWMAMgdqU?format=png&name=medium

Spotted on Twitter with the tag, We are all Keynesians now. To be fair, the Chamber of Commerce has been moving left for awhile now. I would say they're centrist yet, but credit. For example, they opposed Shitstain's executive order ending DACA in 2018, which has largely run into a brick wall in the courts.

Did you look at the details of that American Rescue Plan?

One of the things he's requesting is to extend the moratorium on evictions until October 1, 2021. My late grandmother's house has two fully employed people living in it who filed the COVID exemption to paying rent, and they haven't paid rent since October. We can't evict them, even though the costs, taxes, and bank loans come due each and every month. The tenant told me something along the lines of "you won't be able to get me out of here until April." Hopefully there is a window, but it might be October or even November. If the eviction court is sufficiently backed up, he might be in there rent-free until 2022.

If it was like Section-8, that would be okay, then the government would say "you can't evict these people because of COVID, but we'll pay their rent." And supposedly that program is in place, but it has to be compliant with the HUD rules for the Feds to pay for rent, so these houses with the scofflaw tenants need HUD inspections. Big rental companies seem to be able to get them, but small-time landlords who just own a house or two, it seems nearly impossible. There is supposedly a self-inspection option, but the actual mechanism to do that isn't explained, and nobody answer phones or gets back. You get an automated acknowledgment that you submitted the paperwork, and then never hear from them again.

Fraudulent freeloaders who spend their rent money on electronics, booze, weed and gambling can't be good for an economy. I don't know why precisely, but it seems like it would be corrosive.

The other stuff in the American Rescue Plan seems okay, like the $15 minimum wage. But for the outright grants like the COVID bonuses, someone will have to pay that money back eventually, I guess it will just be a big bill that the Boomers will give to the broke-ass Gen-Xers, who then work to just pay off the interest on it, and then the bulk of that debt will go to the Millennials.

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4 minutes ago, Bugsy said:

A substantial fraction of the US population exists in some alternate fact-free fantasy land.   That can't be a good indicator for future economic development.  

Polices that concentrate the wealth of a nation in the hands of a ruling oligarchy isn't helpful either.  

I've been saying this for years on another forum.

The USA emerged from WW2 with the only big intact economy and with truly massive production capabilities. The political & economic settings led to 3 decades of continued massive innovation and migration of talent from places with poor resources to the USA so those talented people could build their ideas. That drove the achievement spiral further and faster.

That process has effectively stopped and may well be going into reverse. There are a few standout exceptions, Elon Musk being one of them. But far too many US citizens think this premier status is a birthright rather than being created by sustained effort and delayed gratification. You can't even bring your damned measurement system into line with the rest of the planet for fuck's sake!

FKT

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1 hour ago, Grrr... said:

I DO see hope in the younger generations.  They're already more interested in long term things like their own health and the environment.  But we may destroy ourselves before they come to power.  It's going to be another 20 years before they get to power.

They seem okay with a leaner kind of life, and they seem to appreciate some measure of quality over quantity. I can bad-mouth the older generations, because we're the same assholes we always were, but it seems wrong to heap our deficiencies onto the younger generations, they really don't deserve it, they're really well-structured. It seems part of the reason for the way crime keeps falling even though lots of Americans refuse to believe it ... a lot of really well-structured, moral and ethical Millennials and Zoomers ...

atdKoerth.CRIME-PERCEPTIONS.0804.png?w=5

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30 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

The reality is that China has owned the world for most of the last thousand years except for the last two centuries. Things are just returning to normal now since China has had effective government for the last 40 years or so. Stealing technology is not nearly as important as it was 25 years ago, they are very good at creating their own.

Yep, I love these stats.


China has more english speakers than the US.

The Top 20% of Chinese Students are greater in number than all US students, combined.

If Demographics are destiny, China will be THE power. However, I find this interesting. China has always seen themselves as the Center. They really don't care what happens elsewhere as long as it doesn't fuck up China proper, so they aren't colonizers. The US has always been an "expanding" power. It's really the US that will decide the level of conflict with China

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20 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I've been saying this for years on another forum.

The USA emerged from WW2 with the only big intact economy and with truly massive production capabilities. The political & economic settings led to 3 decades of continued massive innovation and migration of talent from places with poor resources to the USA so those talented people could build their ideas. That drove the achievement spiral further and faster.

That process has effectively stopped and may well be going into reverse. There are a few standout exceptions, Elon Musk being one of them. But far too many US citizens think this premier status is a birthright rather than being created by sustained effort and delayed gratification. You can't even bring your damned measurement system into line with the rest of the planet for fuck's sake!

FKT

Elon Musk is a wonderful fellow, but he essentially has a McDonald's business ... he makes and sells a non-fundamental product. All those Teslas are essentially rolling battery cases for the Tesla battery technologies. And the Tesla battery technologies would be nothing without tons and tons of Rare Earth Elements purchased from China.

As for our measurement system, once you start doing advanced work, you learn that the metric system is just as arbitrary as the Imperial system. There is only one universally-fundamental measurement system, it's base-twelve, and it's based on the Planck Length, and the speed of light. Metric is just some oddball system from France that only gives the illusion of coherence, but seems to make more sense simply because it is more popular.

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22 minutes ago, mikewof said:

 

Head in the sand much?

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5 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Head in the sand much?

I don't disagree that we have some areas of long-term innovation. You mentioned that we're the "go-to place for long term investment in innovation."

I just asked you which areas you are referring. You were the one who brought it up, I asked you about it, and you respond with that.

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11 minutes ago, mikewof said:

 

It's the system of VC, not any particular industry, which you know very well.

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1 hour ago, nacradriver said:

A.) China has been stealing ours and other's technology for years. They already have one of the best phones out there HAUWIE.

If you're going to have an opinion on something, at least learn to fucking spell it.

After that, learning something about it would add credence.

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

The question isn’t about falling out of first place. The very real concern is by 2030 the USA won’t be in the top ten 

It already isn't in many categories.

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30 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

It's the system of VC, not any particular industry, which you know very well.

I know a little bit about VC, ulitmately not a lot of VC investment is in other VCs, the investments are in specific industries; finance, energy, manufacturing, resources, social media, etc.. I'm curious which are the industries that are getting the long-term investments, in your view.

I'm not looking for a shitfight here, as already noted, I support long-term investment, as unfortunately rare as it is, even now.

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1 minute ago, mikewof said:

 

The innovation IS the allocation of capital. It blows up the quarter-to-quarter "MBA mindset" (even though many VC folks are MBAs)

The physical industry is irrelevant.

Now, if, since you're a physicist, you're focused on primary R&D, well, VC can do some of that, for instance, in mrna vaccines, but that's not the point nor the normal motion. VC funded innovation can be found in just about all verticals. 

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China has also made huge progress in poverty eradication . . 

not all of it done by markets. 

The governing CP is committed to it. 

https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/opinion/look-chinas-war-poverty

Meanwhile in Gringolandia, we seem to take perverse pleasure in grinding people down 

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

Yep, I love these stats.


China has more english speakers than the US.

The Top 20% of Chinese Students are greater in number than all US students, combined.

If Demographics are destiny, China will be THE power. However, I find this interesting. China has always seen themselves as the Center. They really don't care what happens elsewhere as long as it doesn't fuck up China proper, so they aren't colonizers. The US has always been an "expanding" power. It's really the US that will decide the level of conflict with China

Well other than Taiwan, Nepal and Hong Kong where they are seen by the locals as colonizers.

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11 minutes ago, roundthebuoys said:

Well other than Taiwan, Nepal and Hong Kong where they are seen by the locals as colonizers.

Historic locales well within the boundaries of the extended reach of Imperial China

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

Did you look at the details of that American Rescue Plan?

One of the things he's requesting is to extend the moratorium on evictions until October 1, 2021. My late grandmother's house has two fully employed people living in it who filed the COVID exemption to paying rent, and they haven't paid rent since October. We can't evict them, even though the costs, taxes, and bank loans come due each and every month. The tenant told me something along the lines of "you won't be able to get me out of here until April." Hopefully there is a window, but it might be October or even November. If the eviction court is sufficiently backed up, he might be in there rent-free until 2022.

 

I don't think it's an eviction if the lease is over and you want to move new people in.  How long is the lease?

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8 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Historic locales well within the boundaries of the extended reach of Imperial China

I get that, but most, if not all, of the Taiwanese I know consider themselves sovereign.

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30 minutes ago, roundthebuoys said:

I don't think it's an eviction if the lease is over and you want to move new people in.  How long is the lease?

It's an eviction if they don't want to leave. Nobody can be forcibly removed from a rental in my state without an eviction.

In my case, they stopped paying rent literally three days after they moved in. It seems this was their con, and I got suckered into it, because they told me their daughter was having a baby and they had to live in a hotel. My bleeding heart. Turns out the daughter had no intention of living with them. The lease ends in November 2021. They won't pay gas, electric or water either, but I have to pay their portion for all of that (and they use a lot of all of that, with space heaters running 24/7, windows open and gas heat cranking) since I have to cover that for the downstairs tenants, so their services aren't turned off too.

The only evictions that proceeded during the restriction (which supposedly ends Feb 1, but may be extended by November) is for convicted criminal activity like a meth lab.

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1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

China has also made huge progress in poverty eradication . . 

not all of it done by markets. 

The governing CP is committed to it. 

https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/opinion/look-chinas-war-poverty

Meanwhile in Gringolandia, we seem to take perverse pleasure in grinding people down 

China is great for poverty eradication, unless you happen to practice Falun Gong, or be a Muslim, or protest the government, or write the wrong kind of poetry ...

In that case, you are entitled to all the poverty and slavery you can manage ...

unnamed-2-1170x780-1-1024x683.png

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

The innovation IS the allocation of capital. It blows up the quarter-to-quarter "MBA mindset" (even though many VC folks are MBAs)

The physical industry is irrelevant.

Now, if, since you're a physicist, you're focused on primary R&D, well, VC can do some of that, for instance, in mrna vaccines, but that's not the point nor the normal motion. VC funded innovation can be found in just about all verticals. 

So ... we have new ways of doing VC here? In what industries are these advanced VCs investing with this long-term strategy?

I've never met a VC or Angel who didn't want a five year or less return unless they were the DOE or DOT or DOI. Where are these people?

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1 minute ago, mikewof said:

China is great for poverty eradication, unless you happen to practice Falun Gong, or be a Muslim, or protest the government, or write the wrong kind of poetry ...

In that case, you are entitled to all the poverty and slavery you can manage ...

unnamed-2-1170x780-1-1024x683.png

glass houses Mike.

In the USA you keep innocent people in pens too.

In Australia, we keep innocent people in pens on shore and off shore.

The only difference when you get down to brass tacks is the Chinese are not quite so hypocritical in their racism and religious persecutions. 

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33 minutes ago, mikewof said:

So ... we have new ways of doing VC here? In what industries are these advanced VCs investing with this long-term strategy?

I've never met a VC or Angel who didn't want a five year or less return unless they were the DOE or DOT or DOI. Where are these people?

nice shifting of the goalposts. You want fundamental research with decade-long paybacks? Write your critter.

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30 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

glass houses Mike.

In the USA you keep innocent people in pens too.

In Australia, we keep innocent people in pens on shore and off shore.

The only difference when you get down to brass tacks is the Chinese are not quite so hypocritical in their racism and religious persecutions. 

Yeah, we should see a pic of a US prison stuffed with black guys.

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3 hours ago, mikewof said:

It's an eviction if they don't want to leave. Nobody can be forcibly removed from a rental in my state without an eviction.

In my case, they stopped paying rent literally three days after they moved in. It seems this was their con, and I got suckered into it, because they told me their daughter was having a baby and they had to live in a hotel. My bleeding heart. Turns out the daughter had no intention of living with them. The lease ends in November 2021. They won't pay gas, electric or water either, but I have to pay their portion for all of that (and they use a lot of all of that, with space heaters running 24/7, windows open and gas heat cranking) since I have to cover that for the downstairs tenants, so their services aren't turned off too.

The only evictions that proceeded during the restriction (which supposedly ends Feb 1, but may be extended by November) is for convicted criminal activity like a meth lab.

That's seriously fucked up.

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Sounds like here - landlords have zero rights.

Only a fool or a totally inexperienced person would be a landlord here.

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12 hours ago, Grrr... said:

So, let's get something straight.

China has approximately 4x our population.  They have the ability to get more raw materials, out produce, out engineer, and out program us at every turn.  It's simple statistics.  They will end up with 4 times the smart people, too. We are going to lose an economic war with China.  Period.  Not giving them our tech means forcing them to create their own.  And they already have poor imitations.  Their smart phone market isn't going to suddenly go tit-s up.  They'll just have second class hardware for a little while.  Then they will pass us.  And the United states will be left with outdated technology that no one wants.

What we are doing, right now to China, is FORCING them to catch up technologically as quickly as possible.  All the while, our laws still allow them to purchase pretty much as many companies of ours as they want.  Our response is the most stupid response imaginable.  We are literally begging them to surpass us.

What is the alternative?  Doing what many other countries already do.  Pass laws barring foreign entities from owning more than a certain percent of our companies.  Pass laws requiring certain amounts of tech and content be manufactured HERE.  Then sit back and continue engineering our asses off.  We will lose this fight.  In fact we have already lost this fight.  You really think China can't engineer their own smart phones (already have), their own chips to run them (already have), and put them in their populations hands? (Already do).

If there is one thing I hate most about the United States of America, it's our repeated focus on the short term gain, while ignoring the long term loss.  We squander the assets of our companies to maximize their stock prices.  We break apart companies in the name of share-holder value.  And we go to war with China when we've already lost.

It's a lonely feeling when you come to the realisation  that you and your country were sold down the river. :( 

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4 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Yeah, we should see a pic of a US prison stuffed with black guys.

Don't you mean predators? :ph34r:

 

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7 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

It already isn't ( in the top 10) in many categories.

Many of those categories where the US has fallen down the list are those categories where the foundation of success is built. We have become a society with a huge sector of people who just don’t even try and it isn’t my job to lift others. 
 

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11 minutes ago, Venom said:

Don't you mean predators? :ph34r:

 

Can you point out the time mark where he says black people?

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1 minute ago, roundthebuoys said:

Can you point out the time mark where he says black people?

Isn't that about the same time the Trump criminal organization was denying rentals to people of colour?

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1 minute ago, roundthebuoys said:

Can you point out the time mark where he says black people?

LOL.. :D

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10 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

glass houses Mike.

In the USA you keep innocent people in pens too.

In Australia, we keep innocent people in pens on shore and off shore.

Nice false equivalence there.

Can you list me the Australian forced labour and religious re-education camps?

No, I didn't think you could. Because there aren't any.

What you should have said, were you actually honest, is that Australia prevents people without a valid visa from reaching our shores. We don't stop them from going somewhere else, mostly.

FKT

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2 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Nice false equivalence there.

Can you list me the Australian forced labour and religious re-education camps?

No, I didn't think you could. Because there aren't any.

What you should have said, were you actually honest, is that Australia prevents people without a valid visa from reaching our shores. We don't stop them from going somewhere else, mostly.

FKT

90% of whom we have obligations to under the UNHCR ..which we signed and ratified .

Hypocrisy

China detains ADULTS. 

We detain CHILDREN 

Which is worse?

Both are appalling abuses of human rights.

If you want to play "who's worse" you choose 

 

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19 hours ago, Raz'r said:

If you don't want to look like a right-wing rube, it might be good to at least get the brand names correct, it's Huawei. And yes, gov't (military) owned and predatory.

How where you described to me once form some that knows you...  "he is the guy walks into the room and everyone gets up and leaves... " 

18 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

If you're going to have an opinion on something, at least learn to fucking spell it.

After that, learning something about it would add credence.

Remind me gain how the Chinese Triads have taken over Vancouver?

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17 hours ago, roundthebuoys said:

I get that, but most, if not all, of the Taiwanese I know consider themselves sovereign.

It has been a few years (5?) but I remember a poll taken that suggested the roughly one third of Taiwanese wanted to (re)join China, one third wanted to maintain the status quo, and one third wanted to declare that they were an independent country. An interesting, if not helpful division of opinion. Something that is not often discussed in the West is the take-over of Taiwan by Chiang Kai-Shek's forces in 1949. Over one million nationalist Chinese moved from the mainland as the Communists took over. They seized control of the island and instituted a military regime that last for decades. Something like 150,000 ethnic Taiwanese were arrested and put in camps. Most of the ethnic Japanese on the island were sent to Japan even though many had never been to Japan. Taiwan's population today is a mixture of the descendants of the Kuomintang and the descendants of Taiwanese people. This is reflected in different views about the future. From Xi's perspective, Taiwan is clearly just part of China and will become so in the fullness of time, likely when views in Taiwan evolve in a favourable direction. Right now it is not a high enough priority to do anything about it.

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2 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

It has been a few years (5?) but I remember a poll taken that suggested the roughly one third of Taiwanese wanted to (re)join China, one third wanted to maintain the status quo, and one third wanted to declare that they were an independent country. An interesting, if not helpful division of opinion. Something that is not often discussed in the West is the take-over of Taiwan by Chiang Kai-Shek's forces in 1949. Over one million nationalist Chinese moved from the mainland as the Communists took over. They seized control of the island and instituted a military regime that last for decades. Something like 150,000 ethnic Taiwanese were arrested and put in camps. Most of the ethnic Japanese on the island were sent to Japan even though many had never been to Japan. Taiwan's population today is a mixture of the descendants of the Kuomintang and the descendants of Taiwanese people. This is reflected in different views about the future. From Xi's perspective, Taiwan is clearly just part of China and will become so in the fullness of time, likely when views in Taiwan evolve in a favourable direction. Right now it is not a high enough priority to do anything about it.

Yep.  The pan-Blue (pro China) and the pan-Green (pro-Taiwan independence).  I've never met a pan-Blue over there that I know of, but then I don't speak Mandarin or Taiwanese so my circle is relatively small.

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7 minutes ago, roundthebuoys said:

Yep.  The pan-Blue (pro China) and the pan-Green (pro-Taiwan independence).  I've never met a pan-Blue over there that I know of, but then I don't speak Mandarin or Taiwanese so my circle is relatively small.

And likely it will be those in the middle (what is half way between blue and green) who will decide it. I get a sense that no one on any side, in Taiwan and on the mainland, is in a rush to push things.

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2 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

And likely it will be those in the middle (what is half way between blue and green) who will decide it. I get a sense that no one on any side, in Taiwan and on the mainland, is in a rush to push things.

I agree.  I think it might be more of a headache for us than them.

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There are lots of good people in China, though they tend to be even more nationalistic than USAeans 

(I regard nationalism as a danger to world peace . .) 

When I spend time there back in the day, we were able to establish relationships with a number of Chinese folks  . . 

some were in the state security apparatus . .   

in repressing dissent, they knew what they were doing was wrong, but they did it anyway. 

Moral blindness. 

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1 hour ago, nacradriver said:

How where you described to me once form some that knows you...  "he is the guy walks into the room and everyone gets up and leaves... " 

Remind me gain how the Chinese Triads have taken over Vancouver?

It's a bit early to be drinking. 

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On 1/15/2021 at 8:30 AM, Grrr... said:

So, let's get something straight.

China has approximately 4x our population.  They have the ability to get more raw materials, out produce, out engineer, and out program us at every turn.  It's simple statistics.  They will end up with 4 times the smart people, too. We are going to lose an economic war with China.  Period.  Not giving them our tech means forcing them to create their own.  And they already have poor imitations.  Their smart phone market isn't going to suddenly go tit-s up.  They'll just have second class hardware for a little while.  Then they will pass us.  And the United states will be left with outdated technology that no one wants.

What we are doing, right now to China, is FORCING them to catch up technologically as quickly as possible.  All the while, our laws still allow them to purchase pretty much as many companies of ours as they want.  Our response is the most stupid response imaginable.  We are literally begging them to surpass us.

What is the alternative?  Doing what many other countries already do.  Pass laws barring foreign entities from owning more than a certain percent of our companies.  Pass laws requiring certain amounts of tech and content be manufactured HERE.  Then sit back and continue engineering our asses off.  We will lose this fight.  In fact we have already lost this fight.  You really think China can't engineer their own smart phones (already have), their own chips to run them (already have), and put them in their populations hands? (Already do).

If there is one thing I hate most about the United States of America, it's our repeated focus on the short term gain, while ignoring the long term loss.  We squander the assets of our companies to maximize their stock prices.  We break apart companies in the name of share-holder value.  And we go to war with China when we've already lost.

You left out the part about doing all we can to limit the numbers and quality of talent.  Those brown kids that won the submarine challenge (I think it was?) a few years ago come to mind....

China does have a problem with creativity, which is holding them back. If we could get to a neutral meritocracy, we’d be ok. If.....

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20 hours ago, Bugsy said:

A substantial fraction of the US population exists in some alternate fact-free fantasy land.   That can't be a good indicator for future economic development.  

Polices that concentrate the wealth of a nation in the hands of a ruling oligarchy isn't helpful either.  

It's a shame to write such an insightful and cogent post, only to have it "liked" by Mikey

- DSK

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20 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

It already isn't in many categories.

The efficiencies (in the broad sense of the word) of outsourcing.

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2 hours ago, nacradriver said:

How where you described to me once form some that knows you...  "he is the guy walks into the room and everyone gets up and leaves... " 

Remind me gain how the Chinese Triads have taken over Vancouver?

12/2018

https://www.straight.com/news/1172466/open-letter-attorney-general-david-eby-sam-coopers-secret-police-study-story

4/2018

https://globalnews.ca/news/4149818/vancouver-cautionary-tale-money-laundering-drugs/

12/2020

https://globalnews.ca/news/7514425/cullen-commission-interim-report-money-laundering/

 

"Eby said he’d spoken with federal Public Safety Minister Bill Blair, who assured him he would seek better cooperation from the agency.

Cullen did not point to evidence heard in testimony so far, which has included allegations that senior B.C. officials turned a blind eye to organized crime laundering massive amounts of suspected drug cash, because money pouring into casinos through loan sharks was good for revenue.

The inquiry has also heard that B.C. government employees allowed so-called VIP high-rollers to “bend” Fintrac’s laws, because casino owners didn’t want to offend high-value customers.

And the vast majority of VIPs were Chinese nationals, the inquiry has heard, that gambled in B.C. government casinos with cash provided by loan sharks. These loans were repaid in China to organized crime, the inquiry has heard."

 

Everyone's in on the "cashi cash"

As always, follow the money.

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2 hours ago, nacradriver said:

How where you described to me once form some that knows you...  "he is the guy walks into the room and everyone gets up and leaves... " 

Remind me gain how the Chinese Triads have taken over Vancouver?

Have you recently suffered a brain injury?

Or are you simply PUI?

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19 hours ago, Raz'r said:

nice shifting of the goalposts. You want fundamental research with decade-long paybacks? Write your critter.

I was curious while long-term investments these VCs funds, but the shitfighting is getting boring.

If you don't know of any, why not just say that? I don't know of any, including medicine. VCs don't tend to the have sufficiently deep pockets, training or temperment for long-term plays. But again, if you know of them share ... or shitfight, whatever suits you.

 

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25 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Have you recently suffered a brain injury?

Or are you simply PUI?

He's fallen off of his horse one too many times while goat roping.

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19 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

glass houses Mike.

In the USA you keep innocent people in pens too.

In Australia, we keep innocent people in pens on shore and off shore.

The only difference when you get down to brass tacks is the Chinese are not quite so hypocritical in their racism and religious persecutions. 

They are not hypocritical, they are up-front that they will throw you in a hole for practicing the religion of your choice, or writing a poem with a seditious number of syllables. Is that admirable? It seems to be so to you and our Political "Scientist."

As for Australia, you are an island, way away from the huddled masses. It would seem that anyone who makes it that far over open ocean (versus a muddy, knee-deep river) should get an automatic welcome note from you folks. But it seems not, Australia is not like Canada, you keep people out far more than you let them in.

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12 minutes ago, mikewof said:

They are not hypocritical, they are up-front that they will throw you in a hole for practicing the religion of your choice, or writing a poem with a seditious number of syllables. Is that admirable? It seems to be so to you and our Political "Scientist."

As for Australia, you are an island, way away from the huddled masses. It would seem that anyone who makes it that far over open ocean (versus a muddy, knee-deep river) should get an automatic welcome note from you folks. But it seems not, Australia is not like Canada, you keep people out far more than you let them in.

Isolationism no longer works the way it did back in the good old days. Ships, and then airplanes made vast distances, and treacherous weather a mere annoyance.

Considering that a vast majority of North Americans, and Australians came from somewhere else relatively recently, neither should embrace protectionist immigration policies. (Of course Ireland will sink if all those of Irish descent are returned)

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Here's the stark difference between incarceration in China and incarceration in Canada.

Please actually read this story so you have an informed opinion, before throwing out CCP supported propaganda.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/meng-wanzhou-canada-bail/2021/01/15/3281d48c-56c0-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html

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2 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

Isolationism no longer works the way it did back in the good old days. Ships, and then airplanes made vast distances, and treacherous weather a mere annoyance.

Considering that a vast majority of North Americans, and Australians came from somewhere else relatively recently, neither should embrace protectionist immigration policies. (Of course Ireland will sink if all those of Irish descent are returned)

A crap little boat to Australia from Asia or Africa or across the Indian Ocean, that's still a treacherous ride, technology can't change that too much.

A plane ticket with a visa, and entry requirements to Australia? Those are the kind of people they want anyway. If Australia, New Zealand, and New Caledonia were separated from some of the most desperately poor people on the planet by a muddy stream, they might have to work a little harder.

And of course, we shouldn't embrace protectionism, the emerging reality of the global economy is population inversion. We need all the people we can get in this country, to avoid going down the population inversion path like China and Russa, and eventually even China. Well-off, comfortably people tend to procreate less.

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9 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

90% of whom we have obligations to under the UNHCR ..which we signed and ratified .

Hypocrisy

China detains ADULTS. 

We detain CHILDREN 

Which is worse?

Both are appalling abuses of human rights.

If you want to play "who's worse" you choose 

 

You know, you're as bad as the Trump followers. In fact your resistance to acknowledging reality is pretty much indistinguishable.

That 'detain' word you like to use. Do you 'detain' every person who comes to your door by denying them entry to your house?

You deliberately choose to use terms like 'concentration camp' attempting to convey images of the Nazi atrocities and mass murder, knowing full well that we have and will do nothing of the kind. You're doing it right now, equating what China does to the Uighurs and others with us excluding people from our country.

But using those terms - IOW, lying - doesn't bother you at all.

Just like Trump and his elk wailing about a 'stolen' election.

So, just as in their case, I've nothing but contempt for your dishonesty.

FKT

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On 1/16/2021 at 3:19 PM, Keith said:

Here's the stark difference between incarceration in China and incarceration in Canada.

Please actually read this story so you have an informed opinion, before throwing out CCP supported propaganda.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/meng-wanzhou-canada-bail/2021/01/15/3281d48c-56c0-11eb-a08b-f1381ef3d207_story.html

MY beef with this is how long this extradition process is taking. Either send her to US or release her. It does not take years to choose.

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It does when the defendant has infinite money.

Hopefully the American charges will be dropped soon.

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My beef is the CCP grabs two random Canadian hostages off the street and throws them in a jail cell. With little or no access to our Canadian consular services.

No one should ever forget, that if they are traveling in China, they too could find themselves random CCP hostages.

Meanwhile, our Canadian federal government lets the accused Huawei executive hang out in her Mansions, allows her to book private shopping days at high-end stores, and then allows her family into Canada for a Christmas visit, and a 14 person dinner out at a high-end restaurant, breaking our covid rules.

 

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15 minutes ago, Keith said:

My beef is the CCP grabs two random Canadian hostages off the street and throws them in a jail cell. With little or no access to our Canadian consular services.

No one should ever forget, that if they are traveling in China, they too could find themselves random CCP hostages.

Meanwhile, our Canadian federal government lets the accused Huawei executive hang out in her Mansions, allows her to book private shopping days at high-end stores, and then allows her family into Canada for a Christmas visit, and a 14 person dinner out at a high-end restaurant, breaking our covid rules.

 

I met several busloads of Chinese tourists in Canada, but that was a couple of summers ago. I suspect the crowds are much less now. You could intern all of them, and from what I saw, they'd be better accomodated and probably enjoy the experience.

China is never going to play nice with other countries, until forced to. It has nothing to do with the Chinese Communist Pary, it's the nature of those who seek power in that culture.

- DSK

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On 1/16/2021 at 11:02 AM, mikewof said:

I was curious while long-term investments these VCs funds, but the shitfighting is getting boring.

If you don't know of any, why not just say that? I don't know of any, including medicine. VCs don't tend to the have sufficiently deep pockets, training or temperment for long-term plays. But again, if you know of them share ... or shitfight, whatever suits you.

 

So, the bitch was, and is MBA quarterly result mindset.

I totally agree.

I pointed out that VCs don’t have that, their time horizons are 7-10 years. And you bitch. 

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8 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

So, the bitch was, and is MBA quarterly result mindset.

I totally agree.

I pointed out that VCs don’t have that, their time horizons are 7-10 years. And you bitch. 

Apologies, I don't get your post.

The reality for better or worse, is a year per TRL level.

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2 hours ago, Keith said:

My beef is the CCP grabs two random Canadian hostages off the street and throws them in a jail cell. With little or no access to our Canadian consular services.

No one should ever forget, that if they are traveling in China, they too could find themselves random CCP hostages.

Meanwhile, our Canadian federal government lets the accused Huawei executive hang out in her Mansions, allows her to book private shopping days at high-end stores, and then allows her family into Canada for a Christmas visit, and a 14 person dinner out at a high-end restaurant, breaking our covid rules.

 

Agree. Put Meng in the same situation...and the Chinese grab another dozen hostages. The Chinese really don't care what they look like here, it's their pure power play. Canada really should not have been involved in this, especially since it was part of Trump's doomed power play. Trudeau didn't learn to say "fuck off" soon enough in this relationship. 

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https://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?id=101323

Sorry, but regardless of who’s been voted in there’s an extradition treaty to honour. That’s how we in the west work within the rule of law.  

Westerners need to pay very close attention to how the CCP flexes its muscles and never forget that this will not change. 

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11 minutes ago, Keith said:

Westerners need to pay very close attention to how the CCP flexes its muscles

Ask the Iraqis or Iranians or a host of others how the 

exceptional hyper-power flexes its muscles. 

We even stomp all over the brave bureaucrats on the International Criminal Court !! 

Vets For Peace 

Hyper power Archives - The Federal

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