Baconator

TVs / fans ruin AC

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Trying to figure out why this AC is so boring. .

 

1. Courses to short? Timed for Gen y mind sets and TVs overzealous demands .

2. Course to narrow. Limiting tactical options to accomodate on course fans proximity . 

3. Boats to fast. No extras flown. Exaggerates the distance between boats... Not a good look when you win by Kilometre but it's only 30secs.

5. Technology too advanced. Besides the helmsman and tactician nobody moves or is engaged in doing anything... Might as well put generators on board and flick the grinders.

6. others.    Start line to narrow or wide???, Need another course variant such as a short offshore race ( to test crew/ boat/ etc?), .... Your thought..  

7. to costly. Morer team's might spice it up

FFS this  racing will lose crowds really  quickly once people get used to the boats... Then what?

 

 

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Add three marks in the middle of the course that you have to pass within 2 BL of and you have to round P then S then P

 

WL

 

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All such races shall be on ocean courses, free from headlands, as follows: The first race, twenty nautical miles to windward and return; the second race an equilateral triangular race of thirty-nine nautical miles, the first side of which shall be a beat to windward; the third race (if necessary) twenty nautical miles to windward and return;

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1 hour ago, White Lightning2 said:

Add three marks in the middle of the course that you have to pass within 2 BL of and you have to round P then S then P

 

WL

 

Le mans start should sort it :wacko:

 

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1 hour ago, Baconator said:

Trying to figure out why this AC is so boring. .

 

1. Courses to short? Timed for Gen y mind sets and TVs overzealous demands

YES

.

2. Course to narrow. Limiting tactical options to accomodate on course fans proximity . 

YES

3. Boats to fast. No extras flown. Exaggerates the distance between boats... Not a good look when you win by Kilometre but it's only 30secs.

YES

5. Technology too advanced. Besides the helmsman and tactician nobody moves or is engaged in doing anything... Might as well put generators on board and flick the grinders.

YES, powered by hamsters

6. others.    Start line to narrow or wide???, Need another course variant such as a short offshore race ( to test crew/ boat/ etc?), .... Your thought..  

Start is fine, only interesting bit in the whole boring as fuck shitshow

7. to costly. Morer team's might spice it up

Negative, needs to be more expensive if anything. This is not a "regatta: it only need one challenger, the Prada cup is pathetic handbag marketing

FFS this  racing will lose crowds really  quickly once people get used to the boats... Then what?

YES, then again who gives a fuck?

 

 

 

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Youve got T-20 or Test matches, this iteraton is T-20

This is 5 day, where you can sit back and soak up every nuance

sorry better example

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1 hour ago, hoom said:

All such races shall be on ocean courses, free from headlands, as follows: The first race, twenty nautical miles to windward and return; the second race an equilateral triangular race of thirty-nine nautical miles, the first side of which shall be a beat to windward; the third race (if necessary) twenty nautical miles to windward and return;

For the record here is what that looks like in the Hauraki Gulf

rxUT3xa.png

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51 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Also 2 min prestart is too short.

I think the 2 min prestart was before they had the control the boats now have. To late to change, but if they use the again they need the 5 min start and push the boundaries back to give more room.

Unfortunately the spectators seem to be a higher priority than good racing.

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1 hour ago, hoom said:

For the record here is what that looks like in the Hauraki Gulf

rxUT3xa.png

Not really free from headlands, tho. 

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

Not really free from headlands, tho. 

If you can bang either corner on the beat without hitting the bricks,  I would thinks that's pretty close to meeting the definition

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Technically you should be able to hit the laylines in your first tack from the start.

This gives more passing lanes options...  Which is why the previous 120+ years racing was held outside of harbours.

This " trying to appease" 500 people on north head/ bringing the 100 spectator craft closer is compromising the art of yacht racing for the million plus TV watchers.

 

Yachting has sold out to the fuckwits

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No boundaries on the prestart side of the start line and its extensions combined with a five minute prestart would be fun to watch. Imagine AC72s traveling at 40+ knots through the spectator fleet trying to use a spectator boat as a pick.

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On 2/21/2021 at 5:11 PM, Baconator said:

Trying to figure out why this AC is so boring. .

 

1. Courses to short? Timed for Gen y mind sets and TVs overzealous demands .

2. Course to narrow. Limiting tactical options to accomodate on course fans proximity . 

3. Boats to fast. No extras flown. Exaggerates the distance between boats... Not a good look when you win by Kilometre but it's only 30secs.

5. Technology too advanced. Besides the helmsman and tactician nobody moves or is engaged in doing anything... Might as well put generators on board and flick the grinders.

6. others.    Start line to narrow or wide???, Need another course variant such as a short offshore race ( to test crew/ boat/ etc?), .... Your thought..  

7. to costly. Morer team's might spice it up

FFS this  racing will lose crowds really  quickly once people get used to the boats... Then what?

 

 

I find myself in the unfortunate position of largely agreeing with you.

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10 hours ago, Varan said:

No boundaries on the prestart side of the start line and its extensions combined with a five minute prestart would be fun to watch. Imagine AC72s traveling at 40+ knots through the spectator fleet trying to use a spectator boat as a pick.

The good ole days.     ... 

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29 minutes ago, Baconator said:

The good ole days.     ... 

The good old days of 40+ kts through the spectator fleet?

Must of missed that cup. 

 

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The good ole days of having the freedom to sail where you want and not be restricted by morons who dumb down the event.

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5 minutes ago, Baconator said:

The good ole days of having the freedom to sail where you want and not be restricted by morons who dumb down the event.

If you dont like it dont watch, plenty of other sailing events out there to keep you happy. 

Unless you just like to whine. 

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What about a no holds barred pirate boarding ship stealing looting showdown....with optional cannons!

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1 minute ago, kenergy said:

If you dont like it dont watch, plenty of other sailing events out there to keep you happy. 

Unless you just like to whine. 

He likes to whine. In fact, I have yet to see one positive post from him since he 'al of a sudden popped up'. Stick him on ignore. He doesnt add any value to any conversation.

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I say keep the course length but lose the boundaries. The real problem with the 2007 and before courses were that the they were too long. If one team got out on a breakaway we had to sit and watch for another hour and a half or more. Competition match racing uses short courses too.

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12 hours ago, ttc546 said:

He likes to whine. In fact, I have yet to see one positive post from him since he 'al of a sudden popped up'. Stick him on ignore. He doesnt add any value to any conversation.

That's a nice whine in a positive thread.   Hoisted by your own petard there moron:rolleyes:

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14 hours ago, jaysper said:

I find myself in the unfortunate position of largely agreeing with you.

ffs, can't have that!:wub:

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OK I’ll bite...You find it boring because:

  1. It’s the Americas Cup - the event is designed to entertain its billionaire sponsors, not you - so its rarely a great spectator sport
  2. You have never foiled, so don’t appreciate the amazing display of design and modern sailing talent

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7 hours ago, cbulger said:

OK I’ll bite...You find it boring because:

  1. It’s the Americas Cup - the event is designed to entertain its billionaire sponsors, not you - so its rarely a great spectator sport
  2. You have never foiled, so don’t appreciate the amazing display of design and modern sailing talent

I have foiled and foiled before this latest trend.

Read the entire thread. .

I like the boats....  But the courses and race times/lengths are not making a great spectacle for such fast boats.

It's like F1 without corners and passing lanes.   .   Just dumb

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2 hours ago, Baconator said:

It's like F1 without corners and passing lanes.   .

Its like F1 doing 3 laps on a gocart track.

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1 hour ago, hoom said:

Its like F1 doing 3 laps on a gocart track.

Exactly. That's q better analogy.

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Good to meet another person who foiled in the 80’s,  but standby my first point - unless you are a billionaire, this entertainment ain’t designed for you.

As to the track - easy to cast Monday Morning stones now that we have boats that seem top be under control.  But 3 years ago, who knew if any of these boats would even get around the track.  Certainly it took a leap of faith to hope that the boats would be close enough to finish on the same leg.   Clearly AM could not get around the track in +20 knots and Dean probably needs Tommy John surgery after fighting the cavitation in 12 knots.

No doubt, if they stay with the AC 75, then they will open up the track a bit next time.

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10 hours ago, hoom said:

Its like F1 doing 3 laps on a gocart track.

Do I have this right: according to wiki, the 2007 cup was held on courses with a total length of 12.6 nm (four legs of roughly three nm each). According to the AC site, the courses this cycle have legs that are between 1-2 nm long, depending on the course and configuration.  So these races are between 6-12 nm long depending on the course. I don't know if we have ever had a course that was at the higher end of that range (two nm per leg).  So most likely, these races have been half the distance of the 2007 races.

That's short, but not as short as I was expecting them to be in comparison. I think the bigger issue is that the boats are so fast that they chew up that length rather quickly.  

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7 hours ago, porthos said:

Do I have this right: according to wiki, the 2007 cup was held on courses with a total length of 12.6 nm (four legs of roughly three nm each). According to the AC site, the courses this cycle have legs that are between 1-2 nm long, depending on the course and configuration.  So these races are between 6-12 nm long depending on the course. I don't know if we have ever had a course that was at the higher end of that range (two nm per leg).  So most likely, these races have been half the distance of the 2007 races.

That's short, but not as short as I was expecting them to be in comparison. I think the bigger issue is that the boats are so fast that they chew up that length rather quickly.  

Adding to that, I suspect the reason the races are so short is because the boats are so energy hungry due to constant adjustment of foils and sails that the grinders can't possibly produce that level of output for such an extended period of time.

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14 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Adding to that, I suspect the reason the races are so short is because the boats are so energy hungry due to constant adjustment of foils and sails that the grinders can't possibly produce that level of output for such an extended period of time.

The races are so short so that they can fit the entire show in an exactly two hour window. Each race is 25 minutes long.  Only 1 broadcast lasted more than 120 min.

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6 minutes ago, .......................... said:

The races are so short so that they can fit the entire show in an exactly two hour window. Each race is 25 minutes long.  Only 1 broadcast lasted more than 120 min.

I feel sad to say that you might be correct. 

I had many near sleepless nights for both Valencia based ACs where races were 1.5 hours plus.

How faced is it when peeps can't hold their attention for more than 20 odd minutes. 

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Observations from a my “beginner racing wife” who has sat through many campaigns , 2  European 52 tours, and has owned several cats and 49ers (not by her own decision)....

1. Prada looks beautiful

2. Wow they are fast ...

3. Is it over in leg one again?

4. They look really slow when they are are racing and not flying ....

5. Is this the next race?

6. Why are there only 3 sailors doing anything

7. What are the big lobster claws ?

8. Why don’t all the boats have two drivers it looks much faster....

9. Why did they tack then bear away ? (She now says “cake or death “ at every weather rounding).

10. Why are there so few teams... 

11. Why do they have out of bounds doesn’t that mess up the tactics?

12. What day does TNZ win again.....

 

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9 minutes ago, .......................... said:

Observations from a my “beginner racing wife” who has sat through many campaigns , 2  European 52 tours, and has owned several cats and 49ers (not by her own decision)....

1. Prada looks beautiful

2. Wow they are fast ...

3. Is it over in leg one again?

4. They look really slow when they are are racing and not flying ....

5. Is this the next race?

6. Why are there only 3 sailors doing anything

7. What are the big lobster claws ?

8. Why don’t all the boats have two drivers it looks much faster....

9. Why did they tack then bear away ? (She now says “cake or death “ at every weather rounding).

10. Why are there so few teams... 

11. Why do they have out of bounds doesn’t that mess up the tactics?

12. What day does TNZ win again.....

 

She nailed #12 beautifully! :D

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59 minutes ago, jaysper said:

the grinders can't possibly produce that level of output for such an extended period of time.

This is a big factor in the length of the races. The light air races, which can be longer, are said to be particularly tough on the grinders.

As an aside, in a surf boat race down the east coast of OZ, they changed out two rowers during the race. A chase boat would race ahead, two blokes would jump in the water and await the surf boat. Two guys would jump out and two climb in, and then continue rowing. Unlikely to happen in the AC, however replacing the grinders with batteries might allow for longer races - would also lower the payroll.

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1 minute ago, Horn Rock said:

This is a big factor in the length of the races. The light air races, which can be longer, are said to be particularly tough on the grinders.

As an aside, in a surf boat race down the east coast of OZ, they changed out two rowers during the race. A chase boat would race ahead, two blokes would jump in the water and await the surf boat. Two guys would jump out and two climb in, and then continue rowing. Unlikely to happen in the AC, however replacing the grinders with batteries might allow for longer races - would also lower the payroll.

I detest the thought of ditching grinders.

Sucked in Valencia and would suck even more here cos the boats look even less like a traditional boat and there is precious little boat handling such as drops and hoists.

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6-8 grinders to create hydraulic pressure is lame, big time lame. 6-8 grinders on a kite hoist with a big drum with a 2:45 ratio overdrive to pull up the kite in 4-6 seconds , while bringing a loaded guy back, snugging the downhaul and while trimming out the sheet is cool..... 

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5 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I detest the thought of ditching grinders.

Yeah, but they're just 8 hydraulic monkeys, which is hardly traditional sailing anyway, although they do some sail handling in addition to their grinding duties. Lose the 8 grinders, and replace with one or two sail handlers/tactician etc. There's probably 10 or more grinders on the payroll. Losing them would be a significant cost cut. Say they're each on 100k, that's a million per year in saving.

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19 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Yeah, but they're just 8 hydraulic monkeys, which is hardly traditional sailing anyway, although they do some sail handling in addition to their grinding duties. Lose the 8 grinders, and replace with one or two sail handlers/tactician etc. There's probably 10 or more grinders on the payroll. Losing them would be a significant cost cut. Say they're each on 100k, that's a million per year in saving.

Is it ok if I cry now?

Maybe skip the sailors and just install massive servos for remote-control. 

It's kinda what they've done with the foil arms anyway. 

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9 hours ago, porthos said:

Do I have this right: according to wiki, the 2007 cup was held on courses with a total length of 12.6 nm (four legs of roughly three nm each). According to the AC site, the courses this cycle have legs that are between 1-2 nm long, depending on the course and configuration.  So these races are between 6-12 nm long depending on the course. I don't know if we have ever had a course that was at the higher end of that range (two nm per leg).  So most likely, these races have been half the distance of the 2007 races.

That's short, but not as short as I was expecting them to be in comparison. I think the bigger issue is that the boats are so fast that they chew up that length rather quickly.  

The problem is that 2007 was shortened from 24 at the end of the 12's and 18 or so from the beginning of the IACC's. These boats are fucking fast so why have them on even shorter courses. The courses were shortened originally because nobody wanted to watch 4 hour races. Now they could do a DOG course in a couple hours.

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58 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Yeah, but they're just 8 hydraulic monkeys, which is hardly traditional sailing anyway, although they do some sail handling in addition to their grinding duties. Lose the 8 grinders, and replace with one or two sail handlers/tactician etc. There's probably 10 or more grinders on the payroll. Losing them would be a significant cost cut. Say they're each on 100k, that's a million per year in saving.

Probably costs more than that, they need a fully equipped gymnasium at their home base plus a trainer then they have to transfer the lot and their families to the AC venue.

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

I detest the thought of ditching grinders.

Sucked in Valencia and would suck even more here cos the boats look even less like a traditional boat and there is precious little boat handling such as drops and hoists.

These grinders are only doing part of the work anyway. If they lifted the foils too then I agree, but they're not. Lose the fuckers and enclose the cockpits.

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11 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

The problem is that 2007 was shortened from 24 at the end of the 12's and 18 or so from the beginning of the IACC's. These boats are fucking fast so why have them on even shorter courses. The courses were shortened originally because nobody wanted to watch 4 hour races. Now they could do a DOG course in a couple hours.

Dog race would be 1.5 hours tops.

The valencia DoG races were about three hours with DoGzilla trundling up wind at a positively pedestrian 18 or 19 knots at a much lower angle I suspect.

 

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31 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Dog race would be 1.5 hours tops.

The valencia DoG races were about three hours with DoGzilla trundling up wind at a positively pedestrian 18 or 19 knots at a much lower angle I suspect.

 

Yeah, probably. Makes an even better case for it. I couldn't remember off hand how long those races were. Those boats look so primitive only 10 years on.

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14 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Yeah, probably. Makes an even better case for it. I couldn't remember off hand how long those races were. Those boats look so primitive only 10 years on.

Totally agree. Races should be at least an hour.

Problem with these boats is even closely matched boats would result in races that are horizon jobs.

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5 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Totally agree. Races should be at least an hour.

Problem with these boats is even closely matched boats would result in races that are horizon jobs.

Well maybe, but we all already  know that there is no second anyway.

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10 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Yeah, but they're just 8 hydraulic monkeys, which is hardly traditional sailing anyway, although they do some sail handling in addition to their grinding duties. Lose the 8 grinders, and replace with one or two sail handlers/tactician etc. There's probably 10 or more grinders on the payroll. Losing them would be a significant cost cut. Say they're each on 100k, that's a million per year in saving.

They should go all-electric, drop the grinders and bring instead hostesses and stewards. They are flying, aren't they? :)

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11 hours ago, jaysper said:

Totally agree. Races should be at least an hour.

Problem with these boats is even closely matched boats would result in races that are horizon jobs.

They kind of are horizon jobs anyway. In the end we're all waiting for a 2013 and an 1983. They happen a few times in a lifetime and it would be great if when the next time it does it doesn't end in 15 minutes.

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On 2/20/2021 at 8:11 PM, Baconator said:

Trying to figure out why this AC is so boring. .

 

 

 

Because these boats are so fast they are always going upwind and there is no way to attack from behind unless the leader makes a mistake. So once out in front, playing it safe is the way to win. We are lucky to get any action in the 2 minute start sequence. It is almost like F1, after the first lap (leg) or 2 it becomes a parade unless there is a mistake.

The Tech is great but some (most) of the time it gets boring real quick.

 

On 2/20/2021 at 8:30 PM, .......................... said:

Maybe the need to add in a middle distance race and an overnighter into the planned series.

Actually these boats are so new and fast they should have some longer speed runs for a top speed honor that could be factored in??? Much like the NHRA Drag racing, it is fun to see the things unleashed.

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2 hours ago, pusslicker said:

They kind of are horizon jobs anyway. In the end we're all waiting for a 2013 and an 1983. They happen a few times in a lifetime and it would be great if when the next time it does it doesn't end in 15 minutes.

Yes they all are with these boats because a 20 second lead puts the boats miles apart.

I think you are missing 1992, 1995, 2000, 2003 and 2007 from your list.

2007 when ETNZ went down to Alinghi was fucking close with one margin being about 1 second IIRC.

The rest were mismatches in the cup, but the LVC saw some incredibly close racing.

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16 hours ago, .......................... said:

6-8 grinders to create hydraulic pressure is lame, big time lame. 6-8 grinders on a kite hoist with a big drum with a 2:45 ratio overdrive to pull up the kite in 4-6 seconds , while bringing a loaded guy back, snugging the downhaul and while trimming out the sheet is cool..... 

You mean like actual sailing right?

Nah, will never catch on apparently :angry:

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29 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

Actually these boats are so new and fast they should have some longer speed runs for a top speed honor that could be factored in??? Much like the NHRA Drag racing, it is fun to see the things unleashed.

My comment " Maybe the need to add in a middle distance race and an overnighter into the planned series " was a total joke  (but I am sure you had that) - it was in reference to the TP 52 worlds when one owner boycotted the distance race (back when owners needed to drive some portion of the races) because the boats were "uncomfortable" offshore".....

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14 hours ago, jaysper said:

Totally agree. Races should be at least an hour.

Problem with these boats is even closely matched boats would result in races that are horizon jobs.

That's an interesting point. I'm not sure a DoG course would be any better with these boats. I wonder if that counsels in favor of a hybrid course that is longer but consists of maybe eight legs of four nm each with boundaries that are narrow enough to force tacks/gybes but wide enough to allow tacticians to find the best wind. That combination might give the trailing boat the best chance to make the race competitive.

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29 minutes ago, porthos said:

That's an interesting point. I'm not sure a DoG course would be any better with these boats. I wonder if that counsels in favor of a hybrid course that is longer but consists of maybe eight legs of four nm each with boundaries that are narrow enough to force tacks/gybes but wide enough to allow tacticians to find the best wind. That combination might give the trailing boat the best chance to make the race competitive.

Maybe one of these type of things ....... 

D0CE1FD1-E7A5-4DB1-905F-8B2F37330FE2.jpeg

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54 minutes ago, porthos said:

That's an interesting point. I'm not sure a DoG course would be any better with these boats. I wonder if that counsels in favor of a hybrid course that is longer but consists of maybe eight legs of four nm each with boundaries that are narrow enough to force tacks/gybes but wide enough to allow tacticians to find the best wind. That combination might give the trailing boat the best chance to make the race competitive.

Even then I'm not convinced.

Despite popular opinion, Rita was not a dog. Just a bit slower.

But the differentials in the races were at times massive.

Some of that was due to the rich getting richer, but I think the nature of these boats also exacerbate the effects of a mistake.

However the biggest factor is that a 60 second lead puts them close to opposite ends of the course. Contrast this with the IACCs where 60 seconds put them two or three hundred metres apart. The effective margin is the same, but in one race you need binoculars to see your opponent.

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