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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

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Bulzeye

What do you know about Flying Junior boats?

49 posts in this topic

As many of you are aware (based on the large amount of replies I received on my prior post), I am trying to get started in sailing and want to get my own small boat. The availability has been pretty sparse around my part of the world (Dallas TX area). I found a listing for a FJ and wondered if anyone had any thoughts on it for a first boat? I have not found any mention of one on here. There may be a very good reason for the lack of mention, I don't know.

 

Thanks for any input you can provide.

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I sailed one...it sucked, but it might be a good starter as I think they use them for american college sailing (what do I know though, I'm canadian)

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FJs are too small and uncomfortable and most are not self-rescuing. They are neither fast nor well-rigged. Outside of junior squadrons you will find very few active. The class was popularly raced in the early 60s and served well as a training boat but nothing beats a Laser for learning skills and getting fit. If you can sail a Laser well you can sail anything.

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What's this about the FJ not being self-rescuing? um....no

 

I sailed FJs all through High School and College, and they're good boat to learn on. The only problem is that they teach you to pinch, which is not a good habbit to get into.

 

They are a simple boat (you can't change settings on the mast, etc) but it offers you a cheap, simple, forgiving platform to learn on. Good for developing communication between skipper and crew too.

 

Laser is also an excellent option if you can find one near you, which I don't think would be very hard...

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What's this about the FJ not being self-rescuing? um....no

 

I sailed FJs all through High School and College, and they're good boat to learn on. The only problem is that they teach you to pinch, which is not a good habbit to get into.

 

They are a simple boat (you can't change settings on the mast, etc) but it offers you a cheap, simple, forgiving platform to learn on. Good for developing communication between skipper and crew too.

 

Laser is also an excellent option if you can find one near you, which I don't think would be very hard...

 

 

I believe he means that they don't come up "dry" like a Laser but unstable and full of water. Bad choice of words. Not being self-rescuing would indicate that once tipped you would require external help to right the boat and continue...clearly not the case.

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Oh, ok. But still, if you do it properly, the boat doesn't fill up with water. I have capsized many times, and yes you do have water inside, but you can still keep racing. Happens all the time. That's what the crew's there for right?! Hike, bail, hike, bail! haha

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If you can sail a Laser well you can sail anything

 

Do you hoestly believe that statement? You might have good tactics that could be brough into certain other classes but not anything.

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If you can sail a Laser well you can sail anything

 

Do you hoestly believe that statement?

 

YES

 

 

 

 

 

 

You might have good tactics that could be brough into certain other classes but not anything.

 

Who knows what you mean?

 

What I mean is that once you master a Laser you can really sail well. Better than well because you've done it all on your own, You KNOW how to head up and bear off on every wave upwind and down and gybe and tack efficiently. Keeping a Laser on its feet at all times takes real skill and developed strength. Like I said earlier, if you can sail one well you can sail anything.

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As many of you are aware (based on the large amount of replies I received on my prior post), I am trying to get started in sailing and want to get my own small boat. The availability has been pretty sparse around my part of the world (Dallas TX area). I found a listing for a FJ and wondered if anyone had any thoughts on it for a first boat? I have not found any mention of one on here. There may be a very good reason for the lack of mention, I don't know.

 

Thanks for any input you can provide.

Have you tried Craigslist or Sailing Texas for boats?

Sample searches -

I found a Force 5 for sale,

http://dallas.craigslist.org/boa/162936010.html

and a Lido 14.

http://dallas.craigslist.org/boa/162332757.html

Here's a Windmill I found at Sailing Texas.

http://www.sailingtexas.com/swindmillb.html

 

Links: Sailing Texas | Dallas Craigslist

 

Cheers,

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HorsesMouth,

I just found craig's List last night and am checking it now.

 

The windmill sold within 24 hours of its listing and I didn't know anything about the type of boat.

 

The Lido has transome damage. I'm not sure I should try to repair a boat yet. I am handy, but I haven't worked with fiberglass much. I'd hate to screw it up.

 

I don't know anything about a "Force 5" .

 

Thanks!

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my first boat that i owned was a FJ. a piece of shit it was. but it gave me great joy. i sailed the boat by myself all the time. i also sail fj's for high school racing.

 

but if i were you i would go for the force 5 or a laser (a force 5 is a wannabe laser) there greate boats and you learn alot

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my first boat that i owned was a FJ. a piece of shit it was. but it gave me great joy. i sailed the boat by myself all the time. i also sail fj's for high school racing.

 

but if i were you i would go for the force 5 or a laser (a force 5 is a wannabe laser) there greate boats and you learn alot

 

 

What!, a Force 5 is wannabe Laser. The Force 5 is a heluva lot more boat than a POS Laser. The one on craigslist will need the correct sail though.

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my first boat that i owned was a FJ. a piece of shit it was. but it gave me great joy. i sailed the boat by myself all the time. i also sail fj's for high school racing.

 

but if i were you i would go for the force 5 or a laser (a force 5 is a wannabe laser) there greate boats and you learn alot

 

 

What!, a Force 5 is wannabe Laser. The Force 5 is a heluva lot more boat than a POS Laser. The one on craigslist will need the correct sail though.

 

I agree the Force 5 is a much nicer boat than a Laser. Furthermore, the force 5 came out first. If AMF hadnt botched the manufacturing of the first batch of boats (deck to hull joint failure) history might have gone differently.

 

I wouldnt take an FJ off a christmas tree, or a Lido either.

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FJs are too small and uncomfortable and most are not self-rescuing....

 

Geez, we didn't know FJ's weren't self-rescuing when I sailed them in college, so we went right ahead and popped 'em upright and went back to sailing.

 

There were a couple of different FJ models built by Vanguard. Some of the early (60's - 70's) vintage models had low seats and narrow gunwales, and those would come up with water in them. But the vast majority of the collegiate FJ's that I've seen have full side tanks like a 470. The cockpit is out of the water when capsized, and they come up dry. The tanks are also comfortable for hiking.

 

Here's the general arrangement from the Vanguard site: http://www.teamvanguard.com/2005/images/li...rawings/cfj.gif

 

The answer to, "What's the best boat to buy?" is, "Whatever is actively raced in your area." There's a natural evolution of classes that are best suited for the local sailing conditions. You will find a source of used boats and a ready market when you want to sell yours. And you'll have the fun of sailing with others of your kind, plus a lot of help learning how to do it.

 

If you live in Texas, I'd take a look at the scow classes, too. I also sailed an M-16 in college, and I often wish I still had that wooden Melges. There are four clubs on White Rock, and they sail the gamut of ILYA classes. The MC may be a good choice for you - it's a growing class, you can sail it single-handed or take out several friends, and it's a stable, nice handling boat. Comes up dry, too.

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my first boat that i owned was a FJ. a piece of shit it was. but it gave me great joy. i sailed the boat by myself all the time. i also sail fj's for high school racing.

 

but if i were you i would go for the force 5 or a laser (a force 5 is a wannabe laser) there greate boats and you learn alot

 

 

What!, a Force 5 is wannabe Laser. The Force 5 is a heluva lot more boat than a POS Laser. The one on craigslist will need the correct sail though.

 

I agree the Force 5 is a much nicer boat than a Laser. Furthermore, the force 5 came out first. If AMF hadnt botched the manufacturing of the first batch of boats (deck to hull joint failure) history might have gone differently.

 

I wouldnt take an FJ off a christmas tree, or a Lido either.

 

 

fine fine. im sorry for calling a force 5 a a wannabe laser. actually a force 5 is a great boat. i prefer it over a laser in some conditions. i was just trying to describe the thing :P sorry guys.

 

heres the thing about lasers, there is shit loads of them in the world and its not hard to find a fleet.

 

force 5's on the other hand are much nicer boat but there isnt as many and finding a fleet is very difficult (in fact i dont even know of one, but that maybe becase i havnt looked into it much)

 

cheers

fdh

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I'd take costs into consideration. If you can get the FJ for a cheap price, go for it. But you need a bailer for the FJ. It does not have an autobailer except for the POS skupper in the back. So pretty much a laundry detergent bottle with the bottom cut off will do.

 

When you capsize or get water in the boat, you gotta bail by hand (unless you like cold feet).

 

 

Anyway, there are much better boats out there. You could look for a 420 (which itself is a POS) which has larger fleets and more use in HS and college programs. A laser is a decently difficult boat which you could find play for almost anywhere. Also, lasers keep their value pretty well, so when it's time to move on, you'll be able to get a decent amount of money back.

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If all you're looking for is a small beginner boat, an FJ is fine if you can find one in decent shape for not a relatively low price. It will get you in the habit of pinching, which taking into other boats probably isn't the greatest thing. Just remember in heavy air to keep your weight back.

 

I guess it all depends on if you're trying to race at all, and if so, look at the classes around you, as racing in a decent fleet will teach you a lot more about your boat than just sailing by yourself.

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Hey Bulzeye-

 

Good advice getting what there is in your area. You'll have more fun.

 

There are IFJs and CFJs. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a CFJ- schools bought them up like crazy, put floats at the top of the mast, and thrashed the shit out of them. Straight mast, small main, small jib.

 

IFJs are lighter, have spinnakers and a single trapeze. Lots of cool strings to pull, and the stuff is small enough not to cost an arm and a leg. I have a blast in mine. I had been out of sailing for about 20 years and wanted to get back in. I found mine on Craig's list. Ready to go, 2 sets of sails and trailer for 500 bucks. When a puff hits, it really takes off. When I sail it myself, the trap and spinn go unused, but it is still a kick in the head.

 

That being said, I don't think I would pay the 5 or 6 thousand they want for a new one... there's some pretty wicked cool stuff around these days, and the class is pretty fragmented.

 

If it is there and cheap, get it and get out sailing! If its an IFJ, you will have a good time.

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my first boat that i owned was a FJ. a piece of shit it was. but it gave me great joy. i sailed the boat by myself all the time. i also sail fj's for high school racing.

 

but if i were you i would go for the force 5 or a laser (a force 5 is a wannabe laser) there greate boats and you learn alot

 

 

What!, a Force 5 is wannabe Laser. The Force 5 is a heluva lot more boat than a POS Laser. The one on craigslist will need the correct sail though.

 

I agree the Force 5 is a much nicer boat than a Laser. Furthermore, the force 5 came out first. If AMF hadnt botched the manufacturing of the first batch of boats (deck to hull joint failure) history might have gone differently.

 

I wouldnt take an FJ off a christmas tree, or a Lido either.

 

 

fine fine. im sorry for calling a force 5 a a wannabe laser. actually a force 5 is a great boat. i prefer it over a laser in some conditions. i was just trying to describe the thing :P sorry guys.

 

heres the thing about lasers, there is shit loads of them in the world and its not hard to find a fleet.

 

force 5's on the other hand are much nicer boat but there isnt as many and finding a fleet is very difficult (in fact i dont even know of one, but that maybe becase i havnt looked into it much)

 

cheers

fdh

 

ah, there's the rub. some classes of really cool boats are small time, local phenomena, while the big classes of less interesting boats grow and grow. Force 5 is really only a racing class in the northeast, like the Tasar is only a racing class in the northwest.

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Personally, i am a high school sailor, and we use 420's in high school there is a variation between 420's and FJ's but the 420 beats the hell out of the FJ, hull wise and comfort wise. the FJ is a slow boat and the 420 is self planing for fast reaching and on an FJ there is not jib cleat which sucks for the crew but the 420's are becoming allot more popular in college sailing and its a better boat another good boat the a vanguard 15 and lasers are good as well

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Personally, i am a high school sailor, and we use 420's in high school there is a variation between 420's and FJ's but the 420 beats the hell out of the FJ, hull wise and comfort wise. the FJ is a slow boat and the 420 is self planing for fast reaching and on an FJ there is not jib cleat which sucks for the crew but the 420's are becoming allot more popular in college sailing and its a better boat another good boat the a vanguard 15 and lasers are good as well

 

 

Please. There's no real difference between a 420 and an FJ except for the cross trimming on the jib. I've done the same things in both boats without real difficulty.

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Personally, i am a high school sailor, and we use 420's in high school there is a variation between 420's and FJ's but the 420 beats the hell out of the FJ, hull wise and comfort wise. the FJ is a slow boat and the 420 is self planing for fast reaching and on an FJ there is not jib cleat which sucks for the crew but the 420's are becoming allot more popular in college sailing and its a better boat another good boat the a vanguard 15 and lasers are good as well

 

 

Please. There's no real difference between a 420 and an FJ except for the cross trimming on the jib. I've done the same things in both boats without real difficulty.

 

Please the entire hull is much different and the jib controls the the FJ unlike the 420

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Personally, i am a high school sailor, and we use 420's in high school there is a variation between 420's and FJ's but the 420 beats the hell out of the FJ, hull wise and comfort wise. the FJ is a slow boat and the 420 is self planing for fast reaching and on an FJ there is not jib cleat which sucks for the crew but the 420's are becoming allot more popular in college sailing and its a better boat another good boat the a vanguard 15 and lasers are good as well

 

 

Please. There's no real difference between a 420 and an FJ except for the cross trimming on the jib. I've done the same things in both boats without real difficulty.

 

Please the entire hull is much different and the jib controls the the FJ unlike the 420

 

420 has a wider and slightly longer hull. The thwart in the 420 is higher up though, so the crew has got to watch out for his head when gybing/tacking.

 

As for that cam cleat for the jib on the 420...fucking hate it. It always catches the sheet after you uncleat it to tack which makes tacking slower, and over time frays the sheet. One time my sheet got jammed good and hard in the cleat in 30 knots of wind. Jib got backwinded and the boat turtled in about 5 seconds. I like the FJ over the 420 because I can make small adjustments to the jib without having to uncleat the sheet while hiked out on the rail.

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So don't cleat the sheet.

 

Both boats are the same thing. You can polish them however you like, they are both pieces of shit.

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So don't cleat the sheet.

 

Both boats are the same thing. You can polish them however you like, they are both pieces of shit.

 

pretty much sums it up

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So I guess that big smile on my face is a shit eating grin??

 

I owned a Force 5, and had a great time on it. I own an FJ and have a great time on it. Sailed a couple of Lasers a couple of times.... and I sail an FJ.

 

2 sets of sails, trailer, ready to sail, got it for cheap. Fit in with my life at the right time, and I'm having a ball.

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no, dinghy anarchy is all about being cool and owning the latest and greatest boats. but you know, dinghys are pretty far behind from technology:

 

we don't have the smarts of putting lead in our daggerboards/centerboards to up the righting moment and make us not capsize

 

we havent figured out that a outboard or even better a inside motor makes it a heck easier to move the boat

 

we decided that drinking and yachting doesn't go hand in hand and we don't drink while we dinghy sail, for the most part

 

we'd rather fight with jet-skiers and everyone else launching at ramps instead of putting up with club politics and dockage

 

but shame on you if you don't have a carbon fiber sprit on a A-sail with wings and a trap

 

eh. what am I saying, I'm getting a L2 ! i'm overjoyed.

 

danny

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what do i know about FJs? that ive sailed them the past 6 summers, that they suck, and that you should get a 420 instead.

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I taught myself how to sail on an FJ and they are great to learn in but aren't what'd I'd consider fun to sail... Plus, at least in the FJs at school, capsizing def ends up with a ton of water unless you weigh less than 100 lbs - you might want to consider something self-bailing.

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what do i know about FJs? that ive sailed them the past 6 summers, that they suck, and that you should get a 420 instead.

 

no way. at least fjs are tactical. 420s are just slow and you bang a side 99% of the time because the fucker is too heavy to tack a bunch. both boats are way too much effort for very little speed in my opinion. get a 29er- whole new set of tactics and they go pretty fast.

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we decided that drinking and yachting doesn't go hand in hand and we don't drink while we dinghy sail,

 

Speak for yourself...

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what do i know about FJs? that ive sailed them the past 6 summers, that they suck, and that you should get a 420 instead.

 

no way. at least fjs are tactical. 420s are just slow and you bang a side 99% of the time because the fucker is too heavy to tack a bunch. both boats are way too much effort for very little speed in my opinion. get a 29er- whole new set of tactics and they go pretty fast.

 

Roll them.

 

And who have you been sailing against? Banging a corner around me gets you DFL every single time.

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we decided that drinking and yachting doesn't go hand in hand and we don't drink while we dinghy sail,

 

Speak for yourself...

 

 

Agree with Laser...clearly danny is not familiar with the MCSA

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QUOTE(celphtaught @ Jul 22 2006, 03:55 PM)

 

what do i know about FJs? that ive sailed them the past 6 summers, that they suck, and that you should get a 420 instead.

 

 

 

no way. at least fjs are tactical. 420s are just slow and you bang a side 99% of the time because the fucker is too heavy to tack a bunch. both boats are way too much effort for very little speed in my opinion. get a 29er- whole new set of tactics and they go pretty fast.

 

And a 29er stops dead when you tack because you can't roll I don't see the difference

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QUOTE(celphtaught @ Jul 22 2006, 03:55 PM)

 

what do i know about FJs? that ive sailed them the past 6 summers, that they suck, and that you should get a 420 instead.

 

 

 

no way. at least fjs are tactical. 420s are just slow and you bang a side 99% of the time because the fucker is too heavy to tack a bunch. both boats are way too much effort for very little speed in my opinion. get a 29er- whole new set of tactics and they go pretty fast.

 

And a 29er stops dead when you tack because you can't roll I don't see the difference

exactly the 29er and 420 are exactly the same upwind except one goes a shitload faster. and yea you can and do roll a 29er in light air as well as ooch from the shrouds. so if your gonna sail 420s you might as well sail 29ers instead, they are more tactical with the asy downwind and go a bunch faster and are the youth world boat and cost pretty similarly especially considering you will go through multiple 420s in a youth sailing career or only need one 29er for the whole time.

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what do i know about FJs? that ive sailed them the past 6 summers, that they suck, and that you should get a 420 instead.

 

no way. at least fjs are tactical. 420s are just slow and you bang a side 99% of the time because the fucker is too heavy to tack a bunch. both boats are way too much effort for very little speed in my opinion. get a 29er- whole new set of tactics and they go pretty fast.

 

Roll them.

 

And who have you been sailing against? Banging a corner around me gets you DFL every single time.

at big regattas thats all anyone does in 420s. and not to sound like a dick but when i sailed 420s i had won cisa, and come in the top ten in youth champs as well as multiple other big regattas.

edit: it only works if you win the start and bang the correct corner.

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yeah, exactly, for people who arent top ten youth champs, bangin the corner is not a good idea. you have to get a good start, have figured out which corner you want to bang, and then gamble on that side being better. its not consistant, and winning is all about consistancy

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I am currently learning on an FJ and I am having a blast. I have no doubts there are better boats for a number of reasons and in time I hope to learn more about each one. But in the meantime, I'm a student, I don't have much money, and I'm learning at the university's sailing center. If the FJ is a POS, then I'm proud to be learning on a POS. The experience will make me appreciate the differences as I go along. But like I said, if nothing else, I'm having fun and the more I learn the more I enjoy sailing.

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good for you. I also enjoyed taking a shit in my diaper (so im told) until i realized that there were better options out there....

 

The FJ still sucks and while i loved college sailing - i am happy to not be in the damn things 6days a week anymore...My shins are extremely happy to not be in them anymore... Although i will miss sailing 6days a week, being on the water, and the camaraderie that comes with a good team.

 

also - there are a lot of people on this thread that dont post anymore... wonder where the hell they went.

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I think most of them were told you had to be over 18 to post here mustang

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thats funny, except i know a number of them personally - and they're not little kids. They're also damn good sailors.

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... ...

What I mean is that once you master a Laser you can really sail well. Better than well because you've done it all on your own,... ... .... Like I said earlier, if you can sail one well you can sail anything.

 

Yes, it's true, the Laser is where I learned all my spinnaker & navigating skills

 

FB- Doug

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There's a good Sunfish circuit in Texas, also. Plenty of them around.

 

Check out the Texas Centerboard Circuit for more ideas on what people are sailing.

 

It really is better if you can get a boat that someone else you know or at least can talk to has. Trying to learn a "one of a kind" boat leaves you in the dark and relying on internet info instead of hands on advice.

 

Main thing is to get sailing, and have fun!!

 

US307

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I've sailed and raced 420s and FJs for several years. 420s IMO are more fun to sail because of the greater speed, trapeze, and hull shape. It's true that these boats are more for juniors, and no, they are not that fast compared to the latest and greatest dinghies of today. As the wind speed increases, these boats are more fun to sail. The real fun starts when its just you, your crew, and 50 other boats on the starting line before a race. New dinghy sailors learn in this boat, and experienced sailors are challenged.

 

Another thing comparing the two boats... I would rather race a 420 than an FJ. However, single-handing an FJ around the bay in 25 knots of breeze is an absolute blast.

 

I say go for it.

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There is an MC Scow at Rush Creek for $650.00 there also is an active fleet at the same club.

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I saw them racing in Belgum while there for a 505 regatta a while back- looked like cool little boats. Lots of really nice wood boats. Do all FJ´s suck or just the American "Club" or whatever version?

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Generally the original boats (FJs, 420s) aren't that bad everywhere else in the world. The bastardized "club" versions are generally a lot heavier and have less sail area, they start to get fun when you get small craft warnings, but even then you can feel the weight in the boat if you've ever sailed something that's built as a race boat rather than a training boat that can be hammered day in and day out without noticing. It amazes me how much damage some of the kids can cause to these boats considering how over-built they are...

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collegiate versions of the club boats are event worse - no kite and no traps....

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