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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
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Melbourne Big Boat Fleet

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On 7/7/2017 at 6:25 PM, Dark Cloud said:

Bit out of date - still have Chris Carlile as SYC commode

Might as well be , the current one is invisible

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The Australian Yachting Championships being held at SYC in January 2018, NOR is available online.

Racing under AMS is not mentioned.

But, AMS state championship will be held separately with separate NOR and SI's

Not good enough...no longer interested

 

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2 minutes ago, Don said:

The Australian Yachting Championships being held at SYC in January 2018, NOR is available online.

Racing under AMS is not mentioned.

But, AMS state championship will be held separately with separate NOR and SI's

Not good enough...no longer interested

 

AMS is in competition with the systems Australian sailing gouge owners for, not likely to be run in conjunction.

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This is why club sailors are becoming disenchanted with Australian Sailing. The perfect opportunity to provide an all inclusive regatta, and they deny the entry of boats to race in the primary Victorian rating system. Very narrow minded, and ultimately detrimental to sailing.

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Surely you don't consider AMS a credible rating system with its hidden and wildly inconsistent subjective factor?

I guess its cheap enough, so that's the real appeal to the punters when comparing with IRC.

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54 minutes ago, Don said:

This is why club sailors are becoming disenchanted with Australian Sailing. The perfect opportunity to provide an all inclusive regatta, and they deny the entry of boats to race in the primary Victorian rating system. Very narrow minded, and ultimately detrimental to sailing.

AS hate AMS and will never support it, which is why SYC cannot run a 'national' AMS champs.

But seriously, National championships in Aus are a wank - they are really State champs as the country is geographically too big for most interstaters to turn up.

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13 minutes ago, Last Post said:

Surely you don't consider AMS a credible rating system with its hidden and wildly inconsistent subjective factor?

I guess its cheap enough, so that's the real appeal to the punters when comparing with IRC.

And IRC doesn't have a hidden subjective factor?  Race results look closer across AMS than IRC

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No less credible than IRC from that perspective, and more credible when it comes to rating light displacement yachts fairer. Haven't you noticed the IRC type forming of 36 to 48 foot yachts in the last 18 months or so. Who can tell a Mills, from a Kerr, from a J/V etc, and you will never convince me they are pretty to look at i.e. the HH42

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35 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

And IRC doesn't have a hidden subjective factor?  Race results look closer across AMS than IRC

Granted, but the subjective factor in AMS is subject to much greater human, as opposed to mathematical, input and thus the wild inconsistencies.

All rating systems are eventually type forming.

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8 hours ago, Dark Cloud said:

AS hate AMS and will never support it, which is why SYC cannot run a 'national' AMS champs.

But seriously, National championships in Aus are a wank - they are really State champs as the country is geographically too big for most interstaters to turn up.

So do what we used to do in the Magic 25's.... YA won't ratify the class in time to hold a nationals? Fuck it - come sail "the Magic 25 Intergalactic championships."

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20 hours ago, Dark Cloud said:

AS hate AMS and will never support it, which is why SYC cannot run a 'national' AMS champs.

But seriously, National championships in Aus are a wank - they are really State champs as the country is geographically too big for most interstaters to turn up.

So here's a message to YA.

I will not support the AYC unless you include AMS.

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6 hours ago, Don said:

So here's a message to YA.

I will not support the AYC unless you include AMS.

Do you seriously believe AS would give a shit?

They already have nearly the entry numbers that they had for their last series in Sydney so look for them to trumpet loudly what a huge success it  is going to be. So far there's a less than impressive interstate entry - 1 boat but I m sure more will sign up in coming months. Surely Karl-Gav can't resist the temptation to take the candy from the kiddies one more time to keep that prime spot on his mantelpiece occupied.

SYC may choose to run a concurrent series for AMS and possible even PHD but I doubt  it would be AS sanctioned as a "National" Championship.

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Don't get me wrong, I would love to do this regatta. But why should boats and crew entering under AMS NOT be participants in the Australian Yachting Championships, especially as AMS is the only Australian rating system in use.

But multihulls using OMR are invited.

AYC 2018 NoR Rev 0.docx

1.RULES
1.1 The regatta will be governed by the rules as defined in:
a) The Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) of World Sailing;
B) IRC Rules Parts A, B and C where applicable;
c) ORCi Rating System Rules where applicable;
d) OMR rating rules where applicable.

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AMS is not a Nationally accepted rating system. Most other states have seen it for what it is and elected not to adopt it, a conspiracy theorist might say "possibly under pressure from AS" but whatever, that's the way it is.

From the SYC Website:

19 – 21 January 2018

Sandringham Yacht Club is pleased to announce the 2018 SYC Regatta incorporating the Australian Yachting Championships.

Australian Sailing’s premier keelboat event, the Australian Yachting Championships is being hosted by SYC in 2018 after being hosted previously at Hamilton Island and Sydney in 2017.

The SYC Regatta will include a range of sailing events including various handicap series.

With after race entertainment and celebrations, put this regatta in your diary as a must do event.

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26 minutes ago, Last Post said:

AMS is not a Nationally accepted rating system. Most other states have seen it for what it is and elected not to adopt it, a conspiracy theorist might say "possibly under pressure from AS" but whatever, that's the way it is.

Not quite correct - it is the largest rating system in Vic, SA, Tas, is in use in WA and just now being adopted in QLD.

NSW though is the red-headed stepchild

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And the only reason that it is big in those states is that it is CHEAP, not because it is better.  The old saying "the bitterness of poor quality linger longer than the sweetness of a cheap price"

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But it is certainly no worse either, just far better value.

And as someone who has just done the analysis of IRC vs AMS for our local fleet the difference are generally nothing to complain about for our fleet.

There a few strange ones like a Farr 30 speeds up against a Mumm 36.

And a First 40 gets sped up a little and is closer to a Sydney 38 .

Overall there is surprisingly little difference at least against a known base boat.

And please don't post without doing the comparison against  a known base not against two types of boats under two systems you will not get the right answers.

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What does it cost to get an IRC or AMS Handicap?

Just curious.

Not much point for my Jeanneau as we are still trying to have a race where the handicap does not get lower for the next race. 

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Yep TRT - you've obviously given that a lot of thought.

 

Hoppy, AMS is from memory $75 - IRC is $ x boat length - for a 35ft boat roughly $330 - of which about 2/3 goes into the pockets of AS / YA

Nice to know we can run our revered Aus Champs under the not used ORCi

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1 hour ago, Dark Cloud said:

Yep TRT - you've obviously given that a lot of thought.

 

Hoppy, AMS is from memory $75 - IRC is $ x boat length - for a 35ft boat roughly $330 - of which about 2/3 goes into the pockets of AS / YA

Nice to know we can run our revered Aus Champs under the not used ORCi

$75 is pretty good but I assume the boat needs to be weighed which would be an extra cost? I've seen that SYC has their special weighing days which would be the cheapest way to weigh.

Perhaps we should be grateful AS/YA does not use AMS because then the price would be bumped up. 

Who cares if AMS does not get included in the Australian championships. Some enterprising club should look at hosting an AMS championship event.

AMS World Championship Regatta

One lucky Melbourne yacht could be crowned as the AMS World Champion and there will be some division champions in the worlds as well. If it's good enough for the Yanks to call their baseball the world series, why not :)

 

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Hmm for a laugh I think I'd get an AMS rating just to enter the AMS worlds for a laugh :)

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7 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Hmm for a laugh I think I'd get an AMS rating just to enter the AMS worlds for a laugh :)

There's some Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40s with AMS ratings, Avanti at 828, Ingenue 847. Can do alright when the conditions suit them (not light wind). 

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Don't laugh, in the later 1970s the Sharpie fleet held a regatta in Port Moresby and called the World Championship.

Doug Trott who won was always referred to by Ian Grant a sailing journo (sort of)  as "World Champion Doug Trott".

 

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15 minutes ago, lydia said:

Don't laugh, in the later 1970s the Sharpie fleet held a regatta in Port Moresby and called the World Championship.

Doug Trott who won was always referred to by Ian Grant a sailing journo (sort of)  as "World Champion Doug Trott".

 

Stripey (RIP) a "sort of" journo :lol:.... lets just say he had a unique literary style. I miss his work, he was one of a kind.

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

One lucky Melbourne yacht could be crowned as the AMS World Champion and there will be some division champions in the worlds as well. If it's good enough for the Yanks to call their baseball the world series, why not

The reason the Baseball series is called the World Series is that it is named after the "World" newspaper.  I guess you have to wonder why Victoria call AMS "Australian" Measurement System

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2 hours ago, trt131 said:

The reason the Baseball series is called the World Series is that it is named after the "World" newspaper.  I guess you have to wonder why Victoria call AMS "Australian" Measurement System

Similar to the National Gallery of Victoria? :unsure:

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3 hours ago, trt131 said:

The reason the Baseball series is called the World Series is that it is named after the "World" newspaper.  I guess you have to wonder why Victoria call AMS "Australian" Measurement System

Why would it NOT be called Australian Measurement System, it was developed for Australian keel boat sailors to use? Are you Australian? or are you New South Welshman, or Victorian, etc. ect. That said, a couple of years ago AMS was relaunched internationally as Keelboat Measurement System International (KMSi).Keelboat Measurement System International (KMSi).

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11 hours ago, Ockaroo said:

There's some Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40s with AMS ratings, Avanti at 828, Ingenue 847. Can do alright when the conditions suit them (not light wind). 

I pretty much think that I will do the best with an 18-20 knot northerly in the white sail races. With my 135% cruising heavy genoa and a flat sea, I can carry the full sail and keep up a good speed. 

This reminds me about the problem with PHS. Am I correct to assume that there is a variation state by state and even by region between identical yachts with the PHS because the fleets don't mix.

I my very first race, my Jeanneau was given a handicap of 0.936 which was a fraction under the handicap of a Archambault 40 RC LOL After a bit of investigation I found that there was a SO40 racing out of Sydney or Pittwater that had a similar handicap as what I was given. I then found a few other boats in Sydney that were the same as in Melbourne but the Melbourne boats all were about 0.100 lower in PHS handicap. After my stellar performance in the race, I found that there is a SO40.3 (same hull, keel & rig but updated deck) racing out of SYC on 0.800 at some point and informed the club. Next race we were on 0.810 which seemed reasonable. Most races since have been light wind so the handicap is 0.763. If I can get a regular crew and a 20knot day, we will hopefully do well.

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8 hours ago, p5527 said:

Similar to the National Gallery of Victoria? :unsure:

I had to look it up... NGV is the oldest (1861), largest and most visited art museum in Australia. Given that Victoria was a seperate colony at the time, the name was perhaps accurate and it has stuck.

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19 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I pretty much think that I will do the best with an 18-20 knot northerly in the white sail races. With my 135% cruising heavy genoa and a flat sea, I can carry the full sail and keep up a good speed. 

This reminds me about the problem with PHS. Am I correct to assume that there is a variation state by state and even by region between identical yachts with the PHS because the fleets don't mix.

I my very first race, my Jeanneau was given a handicap of 0.936 which was a fraction under the handicap of a Archambault 40 RC LOL After a bit of investigation I found that there was a SO40 racing out of Sydney or Pittwater that had a similar handicap as what I was given. I then found a few other boats in Sydney that were the same as in Melbourne but the Melbourne boats all were about 0.100 lower in PHS handicap. After my stellar performance in the race, I found that there is a SO40.3 (same hull, keel & rig but updated deck) racing out of SYC on 0.800 at some point and informed the club. Next race we were on 0.810 which seemed reasonable. Most races since have been light wind so the handicap is 0.763. If I can get a regular crew and a 20knot day, we will hopefully do well.

Re PHS - yes.  Varies from club to club, from region to region, from state to state.  PHS by its nature tends to 'drift'  - and fleets from different clubs, states, areas, end up with totally incompatible PHS ratings.  A lot depends on the skill and effort of each clubs handicapper - to determine what a certain design should start with, irrespective of the crew and condition of the sails.  And as you experienced, an initial ridiculous handicap for a Jeanneau 40

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6 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

Re PHS - yes.  Varies from club to club, from region to region, from state to state.  PHS by its nature tends to 'drift'  - and fleets from different clubs, states, areas, end up with totally incompatible PHS ratings.  A lot depends on the skill and effort of each clubs handicapper - to determine what a certain design should start with, irrespective of the crew and condition of the sails.  And as you experienced, an initial ridiculous handicap for a Jeanneau 40

Maybe there is a need to "reset" the PHS rating annually. With all of the handicaps and race results in topyacht, you could write a program that compares handicaps club by club and state by state using yachts that do race out of their clubs fleets and also similar boats nationally (especially OD like the Sydney 38) and come up with a factor for adjusting the handicap for each club's entire fleet. 

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PHS is about "everyone wins a prize" not may the best man/woman/crew win.

It can't be consistent across fleets because then if there is one very well campaigned boat in a fleet somewhere no-one else with that design will be able to knock over their local fleet.  This leads to the same dollars race you get in the true ratings systems or the same people winning every week,  again just like the other ratings systems out there.

The best that can be said of PHS is that if you have a good day & sail better than normal you should be in with a chance of a place,  something which is often not possible racing "what you brung" against tricked out rating boats under any of the rating systems.

There is a place for both,  but I think bringing in a cross fleet standard PHS rating for similar boats is pointless if you want standard handicaps there are a range of rating systems to choose from,  any or none of which might suit your boat,  but all will give you a consistent measure to chart your progress against even if it is improving from 20th to 12th.

And no I'm not a gung ho race IRC or nothing type.  I currently race 2 boats, one IRC/ORC & the other PHS & in 20 Hobarts probably 15 have been in the then rating classes & the other 5 (including the last 3),  PHS.  I just don't consider the PHS results as important as the rating ones,  but when you are sailing a boat that is completely uncompetitive under IRC it adds to the fun factor to at least be in with a chance in the PHS division,  so yes we do sail to win it.

 

TUBBY

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3 minutes ago, TUBBY said:

It can't be consistent across fleets because then if there is one very well campaigned boat in a fleet somewhere no-one else with that design will be able to knock over their local fleet.  This leads to the same dollars race you get in the true ratings systems or the same people winning every week,  again just like the other ratings systems out there.

With a well designed methodology that takes in multiple factors and looks for anomalies in performance caused by top v hack crews and $$$$$ v $ budgets, then I think you could create a reasonable way of making ratings more consistent. The key thing about doing an annual "reset" is that it would affect all yachts in a club equally. 

There seems to be a 15% PHS difference between Mel/Syd SO40's (before I started racing) and my handicap is 22% less that the Syd. Perhaps the analysis of all results will see that the other 2 SO40's are consistently faster than yachts that I am slower than. So my exceptional performance might be ignored and after a full analysis they might decide that SYC (where the other SO40 is) will be adjusted up by 14% and RMYS (my club) up by 15%. So the Syd SO40 will stay at 0.936, the SYC will increase from 0.810 up by 14% to 0.923 and my 0.762 will go up by 15% to 0.876

The handicaps relative to your own club will be unchanged although RMYS yachts will be 1% worse off if they race at SYC, but their better handicap the previous year is perhaps part of the reason for the adjustment.

Potentially the only losers in the reset are the boats that race between clubs, but then again, their performances will be a major contributor towards how their club is adjusted. The more boats that race in mixed and home club fleets, the less likelihood the PHS gets out of sync between the clubs.

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PHS gives you a result when you don't have a proper measurement certificate. People can play the sand bagging game and drag their PHS down and then bring on some good crew for a big race and do well. The number means nothing, if you complain to the handicapper it usually goes up a bit... take the handicapper a nice bottle of red and it should drop. If you want to actually compare how you go against other boats get an AMS rating. 

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The rationale behind the PHS system is that if you sail your boat badly enough for long enough, you will eventually win a yacht race. Conversely, if you sail your boat well for long enough you will find yourself in the position whereby you cannot possibly win a race.

ie Good sailing is punished, bad sailing is rewarded. Go figure.

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PHS is just a way to spread the cheap wine around. We tried something along the lines of golf handicaps at one point. each boat got a crew rating of +/- 3% on boat rating. even then the same small group won most races and the bulk of the fleet got pissed off. It continues to amaze me how serious people get about winning a $4 bottle of wine based on a handicap which means nothing.

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4 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

The rationale behind the PHS system is that if you sail your boat badly enough for long enough, you will eventually win a yacht race. Conversely, if you sail your boat well for long enough you will find yourself in the position whereby you cannot possibly win a race.

ie Good sailing is punished, bad sailing is rewarded. Go figure.

Absolutely correct.

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15 hours ago, hoppy said:

With a well designed methodology that takes in multiple factors and looks for anomalies in performance caused by top v hack crews and $$$$$ v $ budgets, then I think you could create a reasonable way of making ratings more consistent. The key thing about doing an annual "reset" is that it would affect all yachts in a club equally. 

There seems to be a 15% PHS difference between Mel/Syd SO40's (before I started racing) and my handicap is 22% less that the Syd. Perhaps the analysis of all results will see that the other 2 SO40's are consistently faster than yachts that I am slower than. So my exceptional performance might be ignored and after a full analysis they might decide that SYC (where the other SO40 is) will be adjusted up by 14% and RMYS (my club) up by 15%. So the Syd SO40 will stay at 0.936, the SYC will increase from 0.810 up by 14% to 0.923 and my 0.762 will go up by 15% to 0.876

The handicaps relative to your own club will be unchanged although RMYS yachts will be 1% worse off if they race at SYC, but their better handicap the previous year is perhaps part of the reason for the adjustment.

Potentially the only losers in the reset are the boats that race between clubs, but then again, their performances will be a major contributor towards how their club is adjusted. The more boats that race in mixed and home club fleets, the less likelihood the PHS gets out of sync between the clubs.

Go into the race results pages of any of the Clubs and you will get a handle on the ratios of PHS/AMS/IRC handicaps and ratings. This may come as a shock because you currently think that your PHS handicap is too high, but RMYS boats are generally favourably handicapped against RYCV and HBYC boats which is why many of the RYCV trophies are won by boats from your Club. You know that you are sailing your boat well when your PHS number is higher than your AMS number.

Stop comparing your PHS number with the boats in Sydney - that is completely not the way that the PHS system works. By resetting the handicap each season back to the "Class Mark" for a given design you will skew the results for the first half of the season. The way to avoid having to do this is for boats from different Clubs to race against each other regularly in events such as Club Marine Series, Lipton Cup and Festival of Sails.

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5 hours ago, MelbourneA31 said:

Go into the race results pages of any of the Clubs and you will get a handle on the ratios of PHS/AMS/IRC handicaps and ratings. This may come as a shock because you currently think that your PHS handicap is too high, but RMYS boats are generally favourably handicapped against RYCV and HBYC boats which is why many of the RYCV trophies are won by boats from your Club. You know that you are sailing your boat well when your PHS number is higher than your AMS number.

Stop comparing your PHS number with the boats in Sydney - that is completely not the way that the PHS system works. By resetting the handicap each season back to the "Class Mark" for a given design you will skew the results for the first half of the season. The way to avoid having to do this is for boats from different Clubs to race against each other regularly in events such as Club Marine Series, Lipton Cup and Festival of Sails.

I think my handicap is fine, if not quite good, I am certainly well placed within RMYS to do well once I get a crew who come regularly and start to know what they are doing and we get favorable winds.

I know the principle of the PHS and by it's nature handicaps will vary over time when there is not enough mixing between fleets. I'll take your word on the RMYS handicaps give our boats an advantage over other clubs. This shows that in spite of some fleet mixing at the top of the bay, handicaps still get out of wack, to the benefit of some.

I'm not talking about a "class mark" reset. I'm saying that you can a use statistical analysis of all race results, to work out which clubs have advantageous and disadvantageous handicaps and adjust them on a fleet basis. Whilst fleet mixing will help synchronize handicaps between clubs, it only helps partially because only a small percentage of club fleets seem to sail outside of their club races.

 I think it is possible to make a PHS handicapping system that will allow you to be equally competitive wherever you race in Aus with the same PHS.

 

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17 hours ago, Rawhide said:

PHS is just a way to spread the cheap wine around. We tried something along the lines of golf handicaps at one point. each boat got a crew rating of +/- 3% on boat rating. even then the same small group won most races and the bulk of the fleet got pissed off. It continues to amaze me how serious people get about winning a $4 bottle of wine based on a handicap which means nothing.

Yeah, Who would get so serious about winning a $4 bottle of wine. I wonder???

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10 minutes ago, ozman said:

 

Yeah, Who would get so serious about winning a $4 bottle of wine. I wonder???

It's not the wine its the glory.

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39 minutes ago, Rawhide said:

It's not the wine its the glory.

I was doing the race results after a twilight race a few years ago and when I announced the winner, as he approached to take his bottle of Club sponsor product, I heard him say "I've been waiting three years for this". Then I knew that we had a problem!

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On 7/13/2017 at 0:20 PM, SPORTSCAR said:

The rationale behind the PHS system is that if you sail your boat badly enough for long enough, you will eventually win a yacht race. Conversely, if you sail your boat well for long enough you will find yourself in the position whereby you cannot possibly win a race.

ie Good sailing is punished, bad sailing is rewarded. Go figure.

When picking up our 2nd for AMS for the Range Series this year, they also gave me 3rd for PHS, should I be concerned?

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30 minutes ago, float drop said:

When picking up our 2nd for AMS for the Range Series this year, they also gave me 3rd for PHS, should I be concerned?

It just means they under estimated your sailing abilities. So you should feel insulted... not concerned.

Mex

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We had a good start in a pursuit race and were hopeful that we could win a prize for crossing the line closest to our start time. Sadly we did not make the top 3 :-(

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Phs doesn't translate across different venues because the conditions are different.....

 


Measurement rules typeform, performance rules are open to sandbagging. One is as corrupt as the other.

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Hmmmm just read just read this PHS handicapping guide from top yacht. I had assumed that the PHS handicapping rules were the same for all Aussie clubs and that it was the fleet mix and local conditions that skewed handicaps one way or another so the clubs will get out of sync. However there seems to be other factors that affects the maths that can be set by individual clubs. 

http://www.topyachtsoftware.com/ref/hcing/PHS handicapping - a sailors guide.pdf 

So in reality, even clubs with similar vessel/crew mixes sailing in the same location can have large PHS differences  because they choose to apply different rules to their PHS handicaps.

 

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9 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

It's not called "dial a winner" for nothing, or as it's known at out club "the east coast phenomenon"

Dart Board Racing

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So far on this site I have seen IRC dumped on, AMS dumped on, ORCI who cares ( only Syd Fishers has been interested here to keep those damn Victorians from having a say) and now PHS coping a serve WTF?

You tell me how you get a fair rule (other than one design and even then there are the haves and have nots (look at Aero aka JB continuous keen up in the Etcheles ) to compare the wide variety of boats and budgets.

I like to race PHS ( fairly no sand bagging) in my older and noncompetitive (IRC / AMS and probably ORCI) boat as it gives a bit of interest in the day on a smallish budget ( obviously I don't sail from the Targe) but we have fun.

Face it guys bitching about handicaps and handicap system is as old as yacht racing with the added complication of the Sydney Mafia yachting administration.

I'd happily support the Intergalactic Championships (sound a blast forgive the pun). 

As always winners are grinners and everyone else complains.

YA dinghy yardstick anyone?

 

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On 8/23/2017 at 0:51 PM, Chucky said:

Anyone have the story on the bad ass looking 38 to 40 foot canting keel race boat on the hard at SYC?

I heard that it's maybe been purchased by the owner of Belle??

Mex

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42 minutes ago, mexican said:

I heard that it's maybe been purchased by the owner of Belle??

Mex

Shaw design, upgrade on Little Nico. Correct re Belle owner. Also owns hot little Thommo 30 Aerosports 2 ex Foundation.

 

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Pretty certain it's not in the 38-40ft range Chucky - looks like a super 30 contender....very clean layout. These boats are pretty cool and don't come cheap......with a demand for talent to sail them well and a resale that'd make you cry. Looking at some of the Hammo vids, the FarEast 28's look like a big (fun!)  bang for the buck, some opportunity for tuning partnerships and possibly some OD racing. 

That said, if someone has the cash, talent and time to put into a program.....go for it! I'm looking forward to seeing the rig ( the keel bulb looks interesting!!)

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Sorry Sportscar - missed your post...so it's the latest Shaw 11? If so, what upgrades does it feature? Keel looks very similar....

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BIG Congratulations to the SYC J111 "Joust" crew.

3rd at the San Francisco Worlds by a whisker.

With 4 1st places a fantastic effort.

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On 8/25/2017 at 1:15 PM, Couta said:

Sorry Sportscar - missed your post...so it's the latest Shaw 11? If so, what upgrades does it feature? Keel looks very similar....

No idea what the upgrades would be but here's some pics to moisten your loins:

59a411eee6ca6_Shaw(1).thumb.JPG.bcdbcd14f0872ee643b32143493641b1.JPG59a411fc13515_Shaw(2).thumb.JPG.d87d62ec625c9908066630719ce42b39.JPG59a4120718d49_Shaw(3).thumb.JPG.cd0a5a9813ad17e513d26532aad1eeab.JPG

 

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10 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

No idea what the upgrades would be but here's some pics to moisten your loins:

59a411eee6ca6_Shaw(1).thumb.JPG.bcdbcd14f0872ee643b32143493641b1.JPG59a411fc13515_Shaw(2).thumb.JPG.d87d62ec625c9908066630719ce42b39.JPG59a4120718d49_Shaw(3).thumb.JPG.cd0a5a9813ad17e513d26532aad1eeab.JPG

 

Undies gusset expanding indeed! Looking at the Little Nico vids from Hammo, she appeared a little heavy (slower to lift her skirts on the reach than some of her rivals) although it couldabeen just the squirty breeze behind Dent...

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Obvious changes to Little Nico are the two "pit" winches (LN has one central winch), no starboard side forward sliding hatch, a clear cotpit floor hatch, rather than a solid hatch. Some minor accessory equipment mods e.g. turning blocks, kite retrieval line exit point, etc. My biggest question is where are the mounting points for the running backstays??

Little Nico only weighs 2600kg about 110kgs more than Smooth Criminal, but does have quite a percentage more wetted area. That said, LN does not push more water as she accelerates, if you watch some video of her she simply accelerates over her displacement hump (what there is of it) extremely easily and quickly, so when looking at her she does not appear to accelerate. But believe me she is a monster. I've never helmed an 11 meter yacht capable of a constant 19 knots two sail reaching in 20 knots of breeze until I had the opportunity when she was at SYC before competing at Geelong.

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Hearing Damo and his PP1 boys are involved in that new Shaw program. Good guys to get the thing going fast but I wonder how much influence on the sailing the PBO will have?

Could be an interesting on-board dynamic if past history is anything to go by.

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Thanks for the comparison Don - agree with your comments re acceleration of LN. Shaw 11 specs have displacement (sailing) of 2400kg while the MC31 quotes 2150kg (I'm assuming dry).....The MC31 still has some work to do if it's to capture further market...that said, I'm convinced it's performance is yet to be fully explored. Not saying it hasn't got some issues, just that we haven't seen it worked up. The more boats in this size range, the better!

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On 8/30/2017 at 11:50 AM, Last Post said:

Hearing Damo and his PP1 boys are involved in that new Shaw program. Good guys to get the thing going fast but I wonder how much influence on the sailing the PBO will have?

Could be an interesting on-board dynamic if past history is anything to go by.

Now hearing all is not rosy in the program and there may be a few "issues"

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I'm assuming it is Faze who has had this built. Give the man his due, he has kept many a boatbuilder and sailmaker going when he goes off on another tangent. If anyone tracked his boats it would have most people's bucket list yachts on it.

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On 9/7/2017 at 6:41 AM, Jono said:

I'm assuming it is Faze who has had this built. Give the man his due, he has kept many a boatbuilder and sailmaker going when he goes off on another tangent. If anyone tracked his boats it would have most people's bucket list yachts on it.

Affirmative, Faze it is. Not sure this one is going quite the way he may have planned. No progress in the last 2 weeks, rumours abound... but you get that in boatyards.

Agreed, he does have great taste in fine yachts. His 60 fter Belle has sat for weeks / months at Sandy without her mast in yet another case of yachtus interruptus, for which he is well known. He has developed a bit of a habit of mothballing good boats.

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On 9/8/2017 at 5:27 PM, DickDastardly said:

And in other news I understand a certain Cookson 50 may be heading north soon.

So that leaves Primative Cool.

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What are the odds that the 6th J111 coming to SYC will be named Scarlet Runner?

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On 9/8/2017 at 5:27 PM, DickDastardly said:

And in other news I understand a certain Cookson 50 may be heading north soon.

Sold or what? It heads north about this time nearly every year.

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1 hour ago, Last Post said:

Sold or what? It heads north about this time nearly every year.

May well be about time it headed north, but it is essentially sold.  Probably leaving next week.

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Must be about time to rename this thread with Primitive C the only "big" 50+ boat left on this puddle. And they're not exactly worth a thread of their own.

On the "Melbourne A Bit Smaller Boat Fleet" theme, hearing one of the very few Soto 30s built back when that projects driver Long Tim was inhabiting these pages is heading our way from somewhere in Asia. 

Maybe they can help revitalise the more affordable 30ft sport/keelboat that isnt competitive under AMS or IRC scene?  

Meanwhile, the brand spanking new Shaw 'Little Nico' clone parked in the yard at Sandringham continues to be a bustling hive of inactivity.

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8 hours ago, Last Post said:

Must be about time to rename this thread with Primitive C the only "big" 50+ boat left on this puddle. And they're not exactly worth a thread of their own.

On the "Melbourne A Bit Smaller Boat Fleet" theme, hearing one of the very few Soto 30s built back when that projects driver Long Tim was inhabiting these pages is heading our way from somewhere in Asia. 

Maybe they can help revitalise the more affordable 30ft sport/keelboat that isnt competitive under AMS or IRC scene?  

Meanwhile, the brand spanking new Shaw 'Little Nico' clone parked in the yard at Sandringham continues to be a bustling hive of inactivity.

Does this mean that my 40ft Jeanneau is included in the Melbourne Big Boat fleet? ;)

In the races at RMYS the only boats in the fleet that are bigger than us are a First 44.7 & 47.7

I think PC does not join the spring series because they are scared of us :)

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Big is a subjective thing. A 30ft keelboat is big compared to an opti

PC is probably aground for the start of your races Hoppy - maybe CBF racing against themselves in any case

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So it's "Melbourne Keel Boat Fleet"...?

What does the future hold for Primitive Cool, just focus on ocean events, leave it in Sydney, be the fastest PHS boat on the bay, sell? 

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21 hours ago, Modurn-ate said:

Big boats in Vic = longer than a Couta!

Rule revision Aug 2017 :)

Easy Tiger...you might be surprised how big I am... <_<

 

 

 

 

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On 11/09/2017 at 1:44 PM, DickDastardly said:

May well be about time it headed north, but it is essentially sold.  Probably leaving next week.

Sold.  Leaving Mebourne on Monday.   First race in Sydney October 7.  We got some learning to do...

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