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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
dbo

Melbourne Big Boat Fleet

5,366 posts in this topic

On 21/06/2017 at 0:12 PM, hoppy said:

I was one of those pram pushers ;)

I would have thought at least having some dingy's, sailing schools etc in the boat show might be good to promote sailing. Unless you are opposed to having bogans out there sailing... Any potential bogan sailer on the water can mean one less jet ski wanker out there.

Firstly, there was a Foiling Wasp, 29er and Open Bic on display in the foyer, discover sailing (yachting vic) had a booth inside as did Tiwal.nz (inflatable dinghy, very cool) 

There was also a main stage sailing forum including a Volvo Ocean race pro, Jessica Watson and a few others. (check the website or your program you picked up at the front door)

3rd, It all comes down to Economics. As others said it's expensive to get yachts into the show. Retailers would need to sell one of every hull you brought in just to break even, and people with the coin to be serious buyers would have no problem seeing the same yacht at an interstate show of directly at the dealers wet pen. The roof height isn't as bad as suggested, last year 38-South brought a Jeanneau 37 in a got the mast up (looked great) but at the end of the day, Snapper fisherman still make up the bulk of the local attendees followed by families and tyre kickers. 

4th, and this impacts many weekend sports not just sailing. More people work weekends then ever before. retail, car service even banks are open Saturdays. That's a lot of people who don't have time for sailing not to mention that the rich are getting richer and the working class are struggling to meet the cost of modern living. No wonder big boats can't find crew, everyone else is at work making that guy the money that helped him buy the big boat. 

Would love to see a sailing show but it would need to be somewhere inexpensive, be well stocked by industry and well supported by the sailers (chicken/egg) and even then I dare say it would be hard for it to survive economically. 

 

 

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I see the ORCV winter series race 1 was yesterday with a small fleet size of only 11. Most boats from Brighton and the squadron with no SYC boats?

This event a few years ago was the largest winter series event in the bay and appears to be fading in numbers. The SYC local club winter series appears to have far more boats racing during the summer!

I have been racing in this series for years but this year my boat is in the shed having some TLC

Why don't all the Melbourne clubs all get together and run one combined winter series every two weeks to make sure the fleet numbers are up, ie a winter club marine series and maybe mix up the courses between fixed and laid marks and a two handed series?

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Over 100 each week in the CYCA winter series on Sydney Harbour

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1 hour ago, Chucky said:

I see the ORCV winter series race 1 was yesterday with a small fleet size of only 11. Most boats from Brighton and the squadron with no SYC boats?

This event a few years ago was the largest winter series event in the bay and appears to be fading in numbers. The SYC local club winter series appears to have far more boats racing during the summer!

I have been racing in this series for years but this year my boat is in the shed having some TLC

Why don't all the Melbourne clubs all get together and run one combined winter series every two weeks to make sure the fleet numbers are up, ie a winter club marine series and maybe mix up the courses between fixed and laid marks and a two handed series?

The ORCV winter series almost didn't proceed due to lack of entries - a few late ones got it over the line.

CMS in winter?  Nah we'd be finishing races up near StKilda or Royals.

The reason there are few/no SYC boats is their local club races provide more than enough winter sailing - there were 40 SYC boats out racing on Sat.

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According to Suds "maybe the winter series shouldn't be on the same weekend as most of the clubs racing"

???

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12 hours ago, resist said:

According to Suds "maybe the winter series shouldn't be on the same weekend as most of the clubs racing"

???

 

Yep, ORCV changed their dates a year or so ago for some reason, so now it's back to back Saturday/Sunday with a lot of clubs winter series. HBYC Brass Monkeys series had 71 boats out on the Saturday (including boats from RYCV & RMYS). Obviously not many want to back it up on the Sunday for another cold sail around the bay.

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1 hour ago, Ockaroo said:

 

Yep, ORCV changed their dates a year or so ago for some reason, so now it's back to back Saturday/Sunday with a lot of clubs winter series. HBYC Brass Monkeys series had 71 boats out on the Saturday (including boats from RYCV & RMYS). Obviously not many want to back it up on the Sunday for another cold sail around the bay.

Ah. Last year/year before I remember it being on 'off' weekends. We're not entered this year, but then it sounds like few are. 

Shame, it was good racing when everyone turned up.

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The ORCV have obviously made a mistake with the winter series schedule.

I also consider their decision with the final race to Geelong being the wrong move as I would prefer to make the last race (with double points) being a short race out of the heads to Western port and back to the heads with a finish line off Port Lonsdale. This type of race will give many ocean race newbies a chance to taste some ocean type racing and then go back to Blairgowrie for a night at the yacht club with a few beers. The Hastings race many years ago used to be a great place to stay after the Hastings race until the marina was filled up with cruising boats but why not use Blairgowrie for celebrating the end of the ORCV winter series.

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5 hours ago, Chucky said:

The ORCV have obviously made a mistake with the winter series schedule.

I also consider their decision with the final race to Geelong being the wrong move as I would prefer to make the last race (with double points) being a short race out of the heads to Western port and back to the heads with a finish line off Port Lonsdale. This type of race will give many ocean race newbies a chance to taste some ocean type racing and then go back to Blairgowrie for a night at the yacht club with a few beers. The Hastings race many years ago used to be a great place to stay after the Hastings race until the marina was filled up with cruising boats but why not use Blairgowrie for celebrating the end of the ORCV winter series.

Because Blairgowrie is as greedy as all fuck these days and would likely want big bucks to use their fancy marina?

Winter ORCV Geelong race was good fun in the past, nice to sail there without having the heart torn from your wallet like it is in January. RGYC is a good club with good people when you take away the FOS razzamatazz and bullshit.

The Queenscliff to Hastings way back when was a great race too, interesting course with tidal influences at both ends and real offshore conditions rounding the Shank. Always amusing watching newbies cutting corners in the WP marina approach channel and even worse getting out again with a skin full of piss and bravado. Any race that goes out the Heads will necessarily add a day to the event and these days, most won't want to do that, particularly in Winter.

We have increasingly become "instant gratification" sailors wanting or at least blindly accepting short races with close proximity starts and finishes so its all over quickly and we can get back to the drudgery of domestic/family duties. Running ORCV Winter Series on the same weekends as major Club winter series racing is just plain dumb. Leave passes for two days in the one weekend are impossible to negotiate for many.

Clearly, ORCV has some serious thinking to do to get that once major series back on track.

 

 

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Our sport continues its decline and our peak body repeats the same story about how hard it's working to provide the support needed to attract, train and retain participants....as it spends our dollars on a chosen few.

So, I thought I'd review the basic recruitment process - an online search - and came up against a few fundamental barriers:

First, I googled "learn to sail melbourne" and found the SA/YA "Discover Sailing" program is listed #5 in the rankings behind several clubs and a couple of professional centres.

I then went to the Discover Sailing website and tried to look up what courses were being offered and where.....

http://discoversailing.org.au/activity-finder/

...only to find that the links were broken.

This is our peak body - and it's nowhere near good enough. The websites are substandard - with poor SEO/Google ranking, layout (not optimised for mobile), search capability, presentation and content. As the portal to our sport, it goes some way to explaining why we're not attracting participants.

From this perspective it looks like SA/YA have thrown the minimum amount of resourcing into this and left it to yacht clubs to do the heavy lifting

Here's a serious challenge - Anyone got an idea or two on How we can we hold SA/YA accountable?

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Couta, I would think the only way would be for lots of members to lobby their own clubs, but I can't really see that happening.

The 'peak body' is and has been rotten for years. You around Glen ?

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Looks like the links are now working - must've been a server overload with all the enquiries on a friday arvo!!!!

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Bit out of date - still have Chris Carlile as SYC commode

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On 7/7/2017 at 6:25 PM, Dark Cloud said:

Bit out of date - still have Chris Carlile as SYC commode

Might as well be , the current one is invisible

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The Australian Yachting Championships being held at SYC in January 2018, NOR is available online.

Racing under AMS is not mentioned.

But, AMS state championship will be held separately with separate NOR and SI's

Not good enough...no longer interested

 

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2 minutes ago, Don said:

The Australian Yachting Championships being held at SYC in January 2018, NOR is available online.

Racing under AMS is not mentioned.

But, AMS state championship will be held separately with separate NOR and SI's

Not good enough...no longer interested

 

AMS is in competition with the systems Australian sailing gouge owners for, not likely to be run in conjunction.

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This is why club sailors are becoming disenchanted with Australian Sailing. The perfect opportunity to provide an all inclusive regatta, and they deny the entry of boats to race in the primary Victorian rating system. Very narrow minded, and ultimately detrimental to sailing.

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Surely you don't consider AMS a credible rating system with its hidden and wildly inconsistent subjective factor?

I guess its cheap enough, so that's the real appeal to the punters when comparing with IRC.

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54 minutes ago, Don said:

This is why club sailors are becoming disenchanted with Australian Sailing. The perfect opportunity to provide an all inclusive regatta, and they deny the entry of boats to race in the primary Victorian rating system. Very narrow minded, and ultimately detrimental to sailing.

AS hate AMS and will never support it, which is why SYC cannot run a 'national' AMS champs.

But seriously, National championships in Aus are a wank - they are really State champs as the country is geographically too big for most interstaters to turn up.

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13 minutes ago, Last Post said:

Surely you don't consider AMS a credible rating system with its hidden and wildly inconsistent subjective factor?

I guess its cheap enough, so that's the real appeal to the punters when comparing with IRC.

And IRC doesn't have a hidden subjective factor?  Race results look closer across AMS than IRC

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No less credible than IRC from that perspective, and more credible when it comes to rating light displacement yachts fairer. Haven't you noticed the IRC type forming of 36 to 48 foot yachts in the last 18 months or so. Who can tell a Mills, from a Kerr, from a J/V etc, and you will never convince me they are pretty to look at i.e. the HH42

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35 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

And IRC doesn't have a hidden subjective factor?  Race results look closer across AMS than IRC

Granted, but the subjective factor in AMS is subject to much greater human, as opposed to mathematical, input and thus the wild inconsistencies.

All rating systems are eventually type forming.

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8 hours ago, Dark Cloud said:

AS hate AMS and will never support it, which is why SYC cannot run a 'national' AMS champs.

But seriously, National championships in Aus are a wank - they are really State champs as the country is geographically too big for most interstaters to turn up.

So do what we used to do in the Magic 25's.... YA won't ratify the class in time to hold a nationals? Fuck it - come sail "the Magic 25 Intergalactic championships."

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20 hours ago, Dark Cloud said:

AS hate AMS and will never support it, which is why SYC cannot run a 'national' AMS champs.

But seriously, National championships in Aus are a wank - they are really State champs as the country is geographically too big for most interstaters to turn up.

So here's a message to YA.

I will not support the AYC unless you include AMS.

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Is this the AYC feedback service?

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6 hours ago, Don said:

So here's a message to YA.

I will not support the AYC unless you include AMS.

Do you seriously believe AS would give a shit?

They already have nearly the entry numbers that they had for their last series in Sydney so look for them to trumpet loudly what a huge success it  is going to be. So far there's a less than impressive interstate entry - 1 boat but I m sure more will sign up in coming months. Surely Karl-Gav can't resist the temptation to take the candy from the kiddies one more time to keep that prime spot on his mantelpiece occupied.

SYC may choose to run a concurrent series for AMS and possible even PHD but I doubt  it would be AS sanctioned as a "National" Championship.

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Don't get me wrong, I would love to do this regatta. But why should boats and crew entering under AMS NOT be participants in the Australian Yachting Championships, especially as AMS is the only Australian rating system in use.

But multihulls using OMR are invited.

AYC 2018 NoR Rev 0.docx

1.RULES
1.1 The regatta will be governed by the rules as defined in:
a) The Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) of World Sailing;
B) IRC Rules Parts A, B and C where applicable;
c) ORCi Rating System Rules where applicable;
d) OMR rating rules where applicable.

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AMS is not a Nationally accepted rating system. Most other states have seen it for what it is and elected not to adopt it, a conspiracy theorist might say "possibly under pressure from AS" but whatever, that's the way it is.

From the SYC Website:

19 – 21 January 2018

Sandringham Yacht Club is pleased to announce the 2018 SYC Regatta incorporating the Australian Yachting Championships.

Australian Sailing’s premier keelboat event, the Australian Yachting Championships is being hosted by SYC in 2018 after being hosted previously at Hamilton Island and Sydney in 2017.

The SYC Regatta will include a range of sailing events including various handicap series.

With after race entertainment and celebrations, put this regatta in your diary as a must do event.

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26 minutes ago, Last Post said:

AMS is not a Nationally accepted rating system. Most other states have seen it for what it is and elected not to adopt it, a conspiracy theorist might say "possibly under pressure from AS" but whatever, that's the way it is.

Not quite correct - it is the largest rating system in Vic, SA, Tas, is in use in WA and just now being adopted in QLD.

NSW though is the red-headed stepchild

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And the only reason that it is big in those states is that it is CHEAP, not because it is better.  The old saying "the bitterness of poor quality linger longer than the sweetness of a cheap price"

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But it is certainly no worse either, just far better value.

And as someone who has just done the analysis of IRC vs AMS for our local fleet the difference are generally nothing to complain about for our fleet.

There a few strange ones like a Farr 30 speeds up against a Mumm 36.

And a First 40 gets sped up a little and is closer to a Sydney 38 .

Overall there is surprisingly little difference at least against a known base boat.

And please don't post without doing the comparison against  a known base not against two types of boats under two systems you will not get the right answers.

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What does it cost to get an IRC or AMS Handicap?

Just curious.

Not much point for my Jeanneau as we are still trying to have a race where the handicap does not get lower for the next race. 

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Yep TRT - you've obviously given that a lot of thought.

 

Hoppy, AMS is from memory $75 - IRC is $ x boat length - for a 35ft boat roughly $330 - of which about 2/3 goes into the pockets of AS / YA

Nice to know we can run our revered Aus Champs under the not used ORCi

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1 hour ago, Dark Cloud said:

Yep TRT - you've obviously given that a lot of thought.

 

Hoppy, AMS is from memory $75 - IRC is $ x boat length - for a 35ft boat roughly $330 - of which about 2/3 goes into the pockets of AS / YA

Nice to know we can run our revered Aus Champs under the not used ORCi

$75 is pretty good but I assume the boat needs to be weighed which would be an extra cost? I've seen that SYC has their special weighing days which would be the cheapest way to weigh.

Perhaps we should be grateful AS/YA does not use AMS because then the price would be bumped up. 

Who cares if AMS does not get included in the Australian championships. Some enterprising club should look at hosting an AMS championship event.

AMS World Championship Regatta

One lucky Melbourne yacht could be crowned as the AMS World Champion and there will be some division champions in the worlds as well. If it's good enough for the Yanks to call their baseball the world series, why not :)

 

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Hmm for a laugh I think I'd get an AMS rating just to enter the AMS worlds for a laugh :)

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7 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Hmm for a laugh I think I'd get an AMS rating just to enter the AMS worlds for a laugh :)

There's some Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40s with AMS ratings, Avanti at 828, Ingenue 847. Can do alright when the conditions suit them (not light wind). 

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Don't laugh, in the later 1970s the Sharpie fleet held a regatta in Port Moresby and called the World Championship.

Doug Trott who won was always referred to by Ian Grant a sailing journo (sort of)  as "World Champion Doug Trott".

 

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15 minutes ago, lydia said:

Don't laugh, in the later 1970s the Sharpie fleet held a regatta in Port Moresby and called the World Championship.

Doug Trott who won was always referred to by Ian Grant a sailing journo (sort of)  as "World Champion Doug Trott".

 

Stripey (RIP) a "sort of" journo :lol:.... lets just say he had a unique literary style. I miss his work, he was one of a kind.

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

One lucky Melbourne yacht could be crowned as the AMS World Champion and there will be some division champions in the worlds as well. If it's good enough for the Yanks to call their baseball the world series, why not

The reason the Baseball series is called the World Series is that it is named after the "World" newspaper.  I guess you have to wonder why Victoria call AMS "Australian" Measurement System

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2 hours ago, trt131 said:

The reason the Baseball series is called the World Series is that it is named after the "World" newspaper.  I guess you have to wonder why Victoria call AMS "Australian" Measurement System

Similar to the National Gallery of Victoria? :unsure:

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3 hours ago, trt131 said:

The reason the Baseball series is called the World Series is that it is named after the "World" newspaper.  I guess you have to wonder why Victoria call AMS "Australian" Measurement System

Why would it NOT be called Australian Measurement System, it was developed for Australian keel boat sailors to use? Are you Australian? or are you New South Welshman, or Victorian, etc. ect. That said, a couple of years ago AMS was relaunched internationally as Keelboat Measurement System International (KMSi).Keelboat Measurement System International (KMSi).

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11 hours ago, Ockaroo said:

There's some Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40s with AMS ratings, Avanti at 828, Ingenue 847. Can do alright when the conditions suit them (not light wind). 

I pretty much think that I will do the best with an 18-20 knot northerly in the white sail races. With my 135% cruising heavy genoa and a flat sea, I can carry the full sail and keep up a good speed. 

This reminds me about the problem with PHS. Am I correct to assume that there is a variation state by state and even by region between identical yachts with the PHS because the fleets don't mix.

I my very first race, my Jeanneau was given a handicap of 0.936 which was a fraction under the handicap of a Archambault 40 RC LOL After a bit of investigation I found that there was a SO40 racing out of Sydney or Pittwater that had a similar handicap as what I was given. I then found a few other boats in Sydney that were the same as in Melbourne but the Melbourne boats all were about 0.100 lower in PHS handicap. After my stellar performance in the race, I found that there is a SO40.3 (same hull, keel & rig but updated deck) racing out of SYC on 0.800 at some point and informed the club. Next race we were on 0.810 which seemed reasonable. Most races since have been light wind so the handicap is 0.763. If I can get a regular crew and a 20knot day, we will hopefully do well.

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8 hours ago, p5527 said:

Similar to the National Gallery of Victoria? :unsure:

I had to look it up... NGV is the oldest (1861), largest and most visited art museum in Australia. Given that Victoria was a seperate colony at the time, the name was perhaps accurate and it has stuck.

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19 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I pretty much think that I will do the best with an 18-20 knot northerly in the white sail races. With my 135% cruising heavy genoa and a flat sea, I can carry the full sail and keep up a good speed. 

This reminds me about the problem with PHS. Am I correct to assume that there is a variation state by state and even by region between identical yachts with the PHS because the fleets don't mix.

I my very first race, my Jeanneau was given a handicap of 0.936 which was a fraction under the handicap of a Archambault 40 RC LOL After a bit of investigation I found that there was a SO40 racing out of Sydney or Pittwater that had a similar handicap as what I was given. I then found a few other boats in Sydney that were the same as in Melbourne but the Melbourne boats all were about 0.100 lower in PHS handicap. After my stellar performance in the race, I found that there is a SO40.3 (same hull, keel & rig but updated deck) racing out of SYC on 0.800 at some point and informed the club. Next race we were on 0.810 which seemed reasonable. Most races since have been light wind so the handicap is 0.763. If I can get a regular crew and a 20knot day, we will hopefully do well.

Re PHS - yes.  Varies from club to club, from region to region, from state to state.  PHS by its nature tends to 'drift'  - and fleets from different clubs, states, areas, end up with totally incompatible PHS ratings.  A lot depends on the skill and effort of each clubs handicapper - to determine what a certain design should start with, irrespective of the crew and condition of the sails.  And as you experienced, an initial ridiculous handicap for a Jeanneau 40

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6 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

Re PHS - yes.  Varies from club to club, from region to region, from state to state.  PHS by its nature tends to 'drift'  - and fleets from different clubs, states, areas, end up with totally incompatible PHS ratings.  A lot depends on the skill and effort of each clubs handicapper - to determine what a certain design should start with, irrespective of the crew and condition of the sails.  And as you experienced, an initial ridiculous handicap for a Jeanneau 40

Maybe there is a need to "reset" the PHS rating annually. With all of the handicaps and race results in topyacht, you could write a program that compares handicaps club by club and state by state using yachts that do race out of their clubs fleets and also similar boats nationally (especially OD like the Sydney 38) and come up with a factor for adjusting the handicap for each club's entire fleet. 

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PHS is about "everyone wins a prize" not may the best man/woman/crew win.

It can't be consistent across fleets because then if there is one very well campaigned boat in a fleet somewhere no-one else with that design will be able to knock over their local fleet.  This leads to the same dollars race you get in the true ratings systems or the same people winning every week,  again just like the other ratings systems out there.

The best that can be said of PHS is that if you have a good day & sail better than normal you should be in with a chance of a place,  something which is often not possible racing "what you brung" against tricked out rating boats under any of the rating systems.

There is a place for both,  but I think bringing in a cross fleet standard PHS rating for similar boats is pointless if you want standard handicaps there are a range of rating systems to choose from,  any or none of which might suit your boat,  but all will give you a consistent measure to chart your progress against even if it is improving from 20th to 12th.

And no I'm not a gung ho race IRC or nothing type.  I currently race 2 boats, one IRC/ORC & the other PHS & in 20 Hobarts probably 15 have been in the then rating classes & the other 5 (including the last 3),  PHS.  I just don't consider the PHS results as important as the rating ones,  but when you are sailing a boat that is completely uncompetitive under IRC it adds to the fun factor to at least be in with a chance in the PHS division,  so yes we do sail to win it.

 

TUBBY

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3 minutes ago, TUBBY said:

It can't be consistent across fleets because then if there is one very well campaigned boat in a fleet somewhere no-one else with that design will be able to knock over their local fleet.  This leads to the same dollars race you get in the true ratings systems or the same people winning every week,  again just like the other ratings systems out there.

With a well designed methodology that takes in multiple factors and looks for anomalies in performance caused by top v hack crews and $$$$$ v $ budgets, then I think you could create a reasonable way of making ratings more consistent. The key thing about doing an annual "reset" is that it would affect all yachts in a club equally. 

There seems to be a 15% PHS difference between Mel/Syd SO40's (before I started racing) and my handicap is 22% less that the Syd. Perhaps the analysis of all results will see that the other 2 SO40's are consistently faster than yachts that I am slower than. So my exceptional performance might be ignored and after a full analysis they might decide that SYC (where the other SO40 is) will be adjusted up by 14% and RMYS (my club) up by 15%. So the Syd SO40 will stay at 0.936, the SYC will increase from 0.810 up by 14% to 0.923 and my 0.762 will go up by 15% to 0.876

The handicaps relative to your own club will be unchanged although RMYS yachts will be 1% worse off if they race at SYC, but their better handicap the previous year is perhaps part of the reason for the adjustment.

Potentially the only losers in the reset are the boats that race between clubs, but then again, their performances will be a major contributor towards how their club is adjusted. The more boats that race in mixed and home club fleets, the less likelihood the PHS gets out of sync between the clubs.

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PHS gives you a result when you don't have a proper measurement certificate. People can play the sand bagging game and drag their PHS down and then bring on some good crew for a big race and do well. The number means nothing, if you complain to the handicapper it usually goes up a bit... take the handicapper a nice bottle of red and it should drop. If you want to actually compare how you go against other boats get an AMS rating. 

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The rationale behind the PHS system is that if you sail your boat badly enough for long enough, you will eventually win a yacht race. Conversely, if you sail your boat well for long enough you will find yourself in the position whereby you cannot possibly win a race.

ie Good sailing is punished, bad sailing is rewarded. Go figure.

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PHS is just a way to spread the cheap wine around. We tried something along the lines of golf handicaps at one point. each boat got a crew rating of +/- 3% on boat rating. even then the same small group won most races and the bulk of the fleet got pissed off. It continues to amaze me how serious people get about winning a $4 bottle of wine based on a handicap which means nothing.

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4 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

The rationale behind the PHS system is that if you sail your boat badly enough for long enough, you will eventually win a yacht race. Conversely, if you sail your boat well for long enough you will find yourself in the position whereby you cannot possibly win a race.

ie Good sailing is punished, bad sailing is rewarded. Go figure.

Absolutely correct.

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15 hours ago, hoppy said:

With a well designed methodology that takes in multiple factors and looks for anomalies in performance caused by top v hack crews and $$$$$ v $ budgets, then I think you could create a reasonable way of making ratings more consistent. The key thing about doing an annual "reset" is that it would affect all yachts in a club equally. 

There seems to be a 15% PHS difference between Mel/Syd SO40's (before I started racing) and my handicap is 22% less that the Syd. Perhaps the analysis of all results will see that the other 2 SO40's are consistently faster than yachts that I am slower than. So my exceptional performance might be ignored and after a full analysis they might decide that SYC (where the other SO40 is) will be adjusted up by 14% and RMYS (my club) up by 15%. So the Syd SO40 will stay at 0.936, the SYC will increase from 0.810 up by 14% to 0.923 and my 0.762 will go up by 15% to 0.876

The handicaps relative to your own club will be unchanged although RMYS yachts will be 1% worse off if they race at SYC, but their better handicap the previous year is perhaps part of the reason for the adjustment.

Potentially the only losers in the reset are the boats that race between clubs, but then again, their performances will be a major contributor towards how their club is adjusted. The more boats that race in mixed and home club fleets, the less likelihood the PHS gets out of sync between the clubs.

Go into the race results pages of any of the Clubs and you will get a handle on the ratios of PHS/AMS/IRC handicaps and ratings. This may come as a shock because you currently think that your PHS handicap is too high, but RMYS boats are generally favourably handicapped against RYCV and HBYC boats which is why many of the RYCV trophies are won by boats from your Club. You know that you are sailing your boat well when your PHS number is higher than your AMS number.

Stop comparing your PHS number with the boats in Sydney - that is completely not the way that the PHS system works. By resetting the handicap each season back to the "Class Mark" for a given design you will skew the results for the first half of the season. The way to avoid having to do this is for boats from different Clubs to race against each other regularly in events such as Club Marine Series, Lipton Cup and Festival of Sails.

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5 hours ago, MelbourneA31 said:

Go into the race results pages of any of the Clubs and you will get a handle on the ratios of PHS/AMS/IRC handicaps and ratings. This may come as a shock because you currently think that your PHS handicap is too high, but RMYS boats are generally favourably handicapped against RYCV and HBYC boats which is why many of the RYCV trophies are won by boats from your Club. You know that you are sailing your boat well when your PHS number is higher than your AMS number.

Stop comparing your PHS number with the boats in Sydney - that is completely not the way that the PHS system works. By resetting the handicap each season back to the "Class Mark" for a given design you will skew the results for the first half of the season. The way to avoid having to do this is for boats from different Clubs to race against each other regularly in events such as Club Marine Series, Lipton Cup and Festival of Sails.

I think my handicap is fine, if not quite good, I am certainly well placed within RMYS to do well once I get a crew who come regularly and start to know what they are doing and we get favorable winds.

I know the principle of the PHS and by it's nature handicaps will vary over time when there is not enough mixing between fleets. I'll take your word on the RMYS handicaps give our boats an advantage over other clubs. This shows that in spite of some fleet mixing at the top of the bay, handicaps still get out of wack, to the benefit of some.

I'm not talking about a "class mark" reset. I'm saying that you can a use statistical analysis of all race results, to work out which clubs have advantageous and disadvantageous handicaps and adjust them on a fleet basis. Whilst fleet mixing will help synchronize handicaps between clubs, it only helps partially because only a small percentage of club fleets seem to sail outside of their club races.

 I think it is possible to make a PHS handicapping system that will allow you to be equally competitive wherever you race in Aus with the same PHS.

 

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17 hours ago, Rawhide said:

PHS is just a way to spread the cheap wine around. We tried something along the lines of golf handicaps at one point. each boat got a crew rating of +/- 3% on boat rating. even then the same small group won most races and the bulk of the fleet got pissed off. It continues to amaze me how serious people get about winning a $4 bottle of wine based on a handicap which means nothing.

Yeah, Who would get so serious about winning a $4 bottle of wine. I wonder???

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10 minutes ago, ozman said:

 

Yeah, Who would get so serious about winning a $4 bottle of wine. I wonder???

It's not the wine its the glory.

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39 minutes ago, Rawhide said:

It's not the wine its the glory.

I was doing the race results after a twilight race a few years ago and when I announced the winner, as he approached to take his bottle of Club sponsor product, I heard him say "I've been waiting three years for this". Then I knew that we had a problem!

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On 7/13/2017 at 0:20 PM, SPORTSCAR said:

The rationale behind the PHS system is that if you sail your boat badly enough for long enough, you will eventually win a yacht race. Conversely, if you sail your boat well for long enough you will find yourself in the position whereby you cannot possibly win a race.

ie Good sailing is punished, bad sailing is rewarded. Go figure.

When picking up our 2nd for AMS for the Range Series this year, they also gave me 3rd for PHS, should I be concerned?

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30 minutes ago, float drop said:

When picking up our 2nd for AMS for the Range Series this year, they also gave me 3rd for PHS, should I be concerned?

It just means they under estimated your sailing abilities. So you should feel insulted... not concerned.

Mex

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We had a good start in a pursuit race and were hopeful that we could win a prize for crossing the line closest to our start time. Sadly we did not make the top 3 :-(

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Phs doesn't translate across different venues because the conditions are different.....

 


Measurement rules typeform, performance rules are open to sandbagging. One is as corrupt as the other.

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Hmmmm just read just read this PHS handicapping guide from top yacht. I had assumed that the PHS handicapping rules were the same for all Aussie clubs and that it was the fleet mix and local conditions that skewed handicaps one way or another so the clubs will get out of sync. However there seems to be other factors that affects the maths that can be set by individual clubs. 

http://www.topyachtsoftware.com/ref/hcing/PHS handicapping - a sailors guide.pdf 

So in reality, even clubs with similar vessel/crew mixes sailing in the same location can have large PHS differences  because they choose to apply different rules to their PHS handicaps.

 

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It's not called "dial a winner" for nothing, or as it's known at out club "the east coast phenomenon"

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9 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

It's not called "dial a winner" for nothing, or as it's known at out club "the east coast phenomenon"

Dart Board Racing

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