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Lot of ignorance on this thread - but you can be sure that AMS does take into account water ballast

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1 hour ago, Zeusproject said:

The j1220 has water ballast ,big kites, carbon rig and rates lower than the smaller , non water ballasted, less sail area j111

j1220?

is there such thing or do you mean j121?

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4 hours ago, Dark Cloud said:

Lot of ignorance on this thread - but you can be sure that AMS does take into account water ballast

Not ignorance DC - more a lack of info on the AMS website / Rules about how water ballast is accounted for under the AMS Rule.

Is a water ballasted  boat measured with ballast tanks full or empty? Reading AMS requirements for measurement it states that all water tanks must be empty but nothing is mentioned about ballast tanks. Are you able to point me in the direction of an explanation of this situation in the AMS rules?

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Yeah fair call flatty, there could prob be better dissemination of info - i believe there's a contact email on their website

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On 2/1/2019 at 3:12 PM, Flatbag said:

Not ignorance DC - more a lack of info on the AMS website / Rules about how water ballast is accounted for under the AMS Rule.

Is a water ballasted  boat measured with ballast tanks full or empty? Reading AMS requirements for measurement it states that all water tanks must be empty but nothing is mentioned about ballast tanks. Are you able to point me in the direction of an explanation of this situation in the AMS rules?

Flatbag,

 

The boat would have to be measured with the ballast tanks emptied. Other wise you would end up in the protest room every week if you were Sailing AMS. The boat must sail all the time at no less then the minimum displacement it was weighed in at. So it’s like getting your boat weighed and measured with all your table and doors fitted and racing with them taken off the boat. It’s fine till you get caught then you would be labeled a cheat.

 

pulpit

 

P.S - how’s our mate hoppy going with his fundraising for the new boat and Hobart campaign ? 

 

I tried to set him him up on a good thing to help him out. 

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On 1/8/2019 at 10:49 PM, Swanno said:

Written off Walk on the Wild Side is heading back to Melbourne so the story goes. Picked up for a steal.

 

This looks like Walk on the Wild Side from the pictures-headed to Hobart according to the ad 

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/hobart-cbd/sail-boats/yacht-crew-wanted/1208822673?utm_campaign=socialbuttons&utm_content=app_ios&utm_medium=social&utm_source=ios_social

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I thought it had already gone. Renamed Thriller

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7 minutes ago, Next Level said:

Thanks.

Didn't last long...

Pretty sure that was always the plan. Results in 2018 Hobart would have to up the resale value, results in Geelong perhaps not?

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1 hour ago, Flatbag said:

Pretty sure that was always the plan.

Yep - the program was always about the 2018 Hobart - 12 months from conception to execution!

That said, it'd be an awesome ride for the 50th Transpac and the 75th Hobart....and it'd come with a few well informed crew if that was of any interest to the new owner.

 

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1 hour ago, Couta said:

Yep - the program was always about the 2018 Hobart - 12 months from conception to execution!

That said, it'd be an awesome ride for the 50th Transpac and the 75th Hobart....and it'd come with a few well informed crew if that was of any interest to the new owner.

 

Now Couta, 

 

Are you  just doing what most owners do with a good race Yacht or trying to keep the boss happy ?

 

Its for sale and no movement on price as well as being able to say “ Yes dear, the boats on the market there’s just no interest in it at the moment” 

 

Or are you hopping on the Hoppy campaign to get him a new Boat and his 2019 Hobart campaign ?

pulpit

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

 

Couta,

If you can convince Hugh to sell her to me for $80k, then I'll give you 50% ownership and you'll have an awesome ride for the 75th....

Now hoppy, 

 

You can afford more than $80k now since I helped you start your new campaign fund raiser. You need to remember that the rights of gay and lesbian whales is a untapped market and a great way for you to raise the funds to by Voodoo outright as well as campaign her.

 

Anyway Voodoo is only a extra 0  at $800k than your $80k that you were going to spend. 

 

Pulpit

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On 1/30/2019 at 7:24 AM, Couta said:

^^^ Hoppy, Reckless copped it hard.....very hard!! 

Nailed right on the bulkhead. Internals out to fix it all. 25K job apparently...

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15 hours ago, crafty_otter said:

Nailed right on the bulkhead. Internals out to fix it all. 25K job apparently...

oof

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Off to Safety Beach tonight and this weekend to do the Sail Peninsula Regatta on the J/133 Patriot. Fun event, a bit less frantic than FoS. Will be nice to have the team back together after the disappointment of the rudder loss in the Hobart. All fixed now, raring to go.

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On 2/20/2019 at 1:20 PM, hoppy said:

Ok, I see Voodoo is off to King Island soon

Ohh yes my friends...with the S2H just a warm up for the main event...the mighty Voodoo is putting the final preparation in for the major ocean racing event on the fixture.....that's right...the offshore classic, colossal and sometimes cataclysmic King Island race is on!!!!!! (and yep...there's plenty of depth in the harbour ;-) 

 

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54 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Does Voodoo have a AMS cert so you can try for the IRC/AMS double like last year or are you just going to be happy to get LH this year?

I love my steaks, so the M2KI is at the top of my bucket list.

So hoppy,

 

Hows you 2019 Hobart campaign going and your fund raising ? 

 

So is king island a wam up race for you and what Boat are you going on ? 

 

Pulpit 

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4 hours ago, hoppy said:

are you just going to be happy to get LH this year?

Records...unlike CD's....are there to be broken...nay...smashed!!!!

And with a hand picked crew of gourmands there'll be precious little of steaks, cheeses, beer and rum for those that are doomed to follow!

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On 2/22/2019 at 6:15 PM, pulpit said:

So hoppy,

 

Hows you 2019 Hobart campaign going and your fund raising ? 

 

So is king island a wam up race for you and what Boat are you going on ? 

 

Pulpit 

 

19 hours ago, hoppy said:

you tell me, you are running the fund raising for me.

Hoppy, 

I’m doing my best for you and the sponsors have been lining up for your Hobart Challenge 2019. The problem is they have all read your $80k topic and are all concerned that you are just a computer sailor who loves to start a new topic and not follow through and think that you are gun shy to buying a boat. Some have even asked if the you even owned a boat in your life with one saying you just picked a Boat out of “Boat Point” for sale and claimed if as your own.

 

Of course I said that wasn’t true and tried to explain that you are just looking for the perfect Boat with a fitout and a electric head. After that all was good. 

 

The thing is hoppy, it’s now time to sharpen your pencil and write your CV and start to sail some ocean miles to show the sponsors that your a “can do type of man” and “I can get the job done” and they all say the dollars will come your way.

 

So mate for your Hobart Challenge 2019 will come, it’s now up to you to show us all that your the man for the job. I’ll keep passing on your number to them.

 

pulpit

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On 2/23/2019 at 12:19 AM, hoppy said:

given that the record was set by PC, it's there for the smashing

 

That was a pretty special year in terms of conditions; but was well before they even remotely had that boat hooked up.

Schrödinger's cool?

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13 hours ago, crafty_otter said:

That was a pretty special year in terms of conditions; but was well before they even remotely had that boat hooked up.

Schrödinger's cool?

I believe one of the 40 footer Don Jones Cadibarra boats owned the King Island record for many years and it took a 50 footer to recently take the record!

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10 hours ago, Chucky said:

I believe one of the 40 footer Don Jones Cadibarra boats owned the King Island record for many years and it took a 50 footer to recently take the record!

Cadi 8 was the 42 and was pretty quick in that direction...

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A late scratching means that records will definitely stand...and there will be some beer, cheese and steak sandwiches left for the King Island race finishers.....Couta out!

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On 3/4/2019 at 9:57 PM, Couta said:

A late scratching means that records will definitely stand...and there will be some beer, cheese and steak sandwiches left for the King Island race finishers.....Couta out!

Hey Couta, you've been doing this stuff for a while, does that Swanno 36 right of picture in Connie Dock Jan 1st 1982 look familiar?

1700045435_ConstitutionDockJan11982.thumb.jpg.262afc5008f43f8a14b80af9a0a190b9.jpg

This one is  from very deep in the shoebox!

 

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12 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

Hey Couta, you've been doing this stuff for a while, does that Swanno 36 right of picture in Connie Dock Jan 1st 1982 look familiar?

1700045435_ConstitutionDockJan11982.thumb.jpg.262afc5008f43f8a14b80af9a0a190b9.jpg

This one is  from very deep in the shoebox!

 

Ohhh Sporty...that's one right out of the box....The mighty Sequel (boat without equal) owned by Mum & Dad....Dad & his best mate Chris Hall (Sunmaid yachts) mastered the 2 watches, with me and my mate Russell Dawes doing the hard yards...nearly got shanghaid by Chas from Tas to do a delivery to NZ, but instead spent 10 days cruising home and being taught to scuba dive by diving legend and sometime master foredeck hand Graham Griffiths....too many great memories here mate. Ta for sharing!!

 

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In the second row in Constitution,  I'd be surprised if you can even remember the climb onto the dock!

Back then it was drinks on every boat you crossed to get ashore.

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10 hours ago, Couta said:

Ohhh Sporty...that's one right out of the box....The mighty Sequel (boat without equal) owned by Mum & Dad....Dad & his best mate Chris Hall (Sunmaid yachts) mastered the 2 watches, with me and my mate Russell Dawes doing the hard yards...nearly got shanghaid by Chas from Tas to do a delivery to NZ, but instead spent 10 days cruising home and being taught to scuba dive by diving legend and sometime master foredeck hand Graham Griffiths....too many great memories here mate. Ta for sharing!!

 

Pleasure mate, though you'd like that one. My ride was bottom left corner, Revenge, Carter 33 with such luminaries as Frank (Filth) Hammond and Brett Bowden. Thats my Ex on board in the Connie Dock pic. Married in May, walked out of the first family Chrissy Dinner to catch a plane to Sydney - and that's when the troubles started... LOL

Made it to the Cover of the Rolling Stone (well, Sail Mag anyway) a couple of years later with a photo from that '81 Hobart start.

2145923298_81HobartStart.jpg.df41460576f3a8996eeaa24f0dcdf769.jpg

 

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"Straight to the pool room" with that shot!! I remember it so clearly - the only S2H start I did with coloured frontsails....and the scary prospect of having bigger, faster (but less start aggressive) boats running up our arse with nowhere to go (only one start line that year).....good times indeed!!!

 

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12 hours ago, huwp said:

Revenge ? Sproulies boat ?

Yes, I sold it to John for original owner Peter Green from RYCV. Sproulie dropped the Hobart on us with bugger all notice and we had to put a crew together about 6 weeks before the race. We never sailed together until start day!! One bloke joined us on the morning of the race after Mark Armstrong injured himself a day or so earlier. Different times!

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

Ahh the same Revenge at RMYS that we smoked in the last twilight....

Nearly 38 years later... yep, same boat Hoppy.

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Doesnt seem like 38 years. We are all still 18 and bullet proof right ?

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No more Association Cup? WTF? Used to be a BIG deal teams challenge between the Clubs. 

And ORCV's annual Easter Race to Port Fairy canned for lack of entries this year. Only four boats entered. 

A sad state of affairs for Victorian keel boat sailing.

 

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Flatty, the assoc cup has been irrelevant for 98% of club members for years - port fairy on life support for a few too - but yeah, i get the sentiment

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12 hours ago, hoppy said:

It seems a waste not having race at Easter. What is wrong with owners and crew these days? Have they gone soft about the potential cold weather?

Hoppy,

 

The fleets will grow again if people see others out racing and having fun. Most fleets just need some new blood into their fleets. 

 

Maybe this is your chance to buy a boat and start racing to help the fleets start again. 

 

Pulpit 

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6 hours ago, pulpit said:

Maybe this is your chance to buy a boat and start racing to help the fleets start again. 

 

Pulpit 

 

ohyou.jpg

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17 hours ago, PITA said:

It's been parked at CYCSA since Lincoln Week.  It will still there last Wednesday, anyway...

Motored past Cadi 8 parked in her berth at Sandringham at 8:30 this morning April 3.

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On 4/1/2019 at 9:48 PM, Flatbag said:

No more Association Cup? WTF? Used to be a BIG deal teams challenge between the Clubs. 

And ORCV's annual Easter Race to Port Fairy canned for lack of entries this year. Only four boats entered. 

A sad state of affairs for Victorian keel boat sailing.

 

Where did you hear that there was no more Association Cup? SYC are running it this year, although, I hear that RYCV has refused to join the party due to the Adams 10s being banned due to a lack of life lines. Details at the following link: https://syc.com.au/association-cup/

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49 minutes ago, mexican said:

Where did you hear that there was no more Association Cup? SYC are running it this year, although, I hear that RYCV has refused to join the party due to the Adams 10s being banned due to a lack of life lines. Details at the following link: https://syc.com.au/association-cup/

Its sad that Royals have declined to race safely with the life line requirements! SYC have done the right thing given the previous history of two skippers loss of life from Royals Adams 10 boats. Royals would also struggle to find any race boats left anyway without any of their Adam 10 racing!

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Aaah Chucky, I could not disagree with you more.

Having read the RYCV letter to members regarding the reasons for their refusal to participate, I believe SYC and AS have created a monster that will decimate racing fleets unless common sense prevails.

I see no evidence of that to date.

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2 hours ago, mexican said:

Where did you hear that there was no more Association Cup? SYC are running it this year, although, I hear that RYCV has refused to join the party due to the Adams 10s being banned due to a lack of life lines. Details at the following link: https://syc.com.au/association-cup/

See the ? at the end? My post was intended as more of a query than a statement of fact. Hopefully it can be revived to a level of good competition again.  Will watch with interest.

No sane sailor can argue with the lifelines requirement. RIP Graeme and Max.

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Pardon me for asking, but isn't the series sailed on the same water that dinghies, beach cats, Etchells, Diamonds and Dragons sail on without lifelines?

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1 hour ago, Curious said:

Pardon me for asking, but isn't the series sailed on the same water that dinghies, beach cats, Etchells, Diamonds and Dragons sail on without lifelines?

 

Yep, some might think, including RYCV and RMYS it would seem, it is a dangerous precedent to override the safety categories that all other races are sailed to.

It also may be seen as premature to decide that the safety lines were the issue when the coroners report has not been issued (last time I heard). Correlation is not necessarily causation.

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13 hours ago, L0kiSc0t said:

 

Yep, some might think, including RYCV and RMYS it would seem, it is a dangerous precedent to override the safety categories that all other races are sailed to.

It also may be seen as premature to decide that the safety lines were the issue when the coroners report has not been issued (last time I heard). Correlation is not necessarily causation.

Two dead sailors is not enough precedent for you ?

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13 hours ago, hoppy said:

What a nanny state overreaction... WTF They want cat 4 safety overrides in areas where cat 7 or cat 6 is the norm. Cat 5/5n is the normal highest safety requirement for the bay.

This is fucked.... 

Our juniors will probably be practising on their Quests on that day in similar conditions and the Tumlaren state championships will be on the day before.

Fucked you say? TWO dead sailors and you still think its an overreaction? You might like to speak with the families and friends of those two deceased sailors or perhaps the crews of the yachts that pulled them from the water, and see how they felt about it at the time and how they are still feeling about it today. I would be so bold as to suggest that the Race Officer for the next event in which a keel boat sailor dies while racing on Port Phillip will very likely face some time at Her Majesties pleasure and the conducting Club will likely be sued out of existence. Would you be prepared to volunteer your services as an R/O with that hanging over you?                            

FYI Keel boats and most dinghy classes have had the same max wind speed (25 Kts) at which they will start races here on Port Phillip for many years. One major difference is that the dinghies are sailing much closer to shore and will have  rescue boats close at hand. That is not the case for keel boats which are expected to be self-sufficient. 

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8 minutes ago, Flatbag said:

I would be so bold as to suggest suggest that the Race Officer for the next event in which a keel boat sailor dies while racing on Port Phillip will very likely face some time at Her Majesties pleasure and the conducting Club will likely be sued out of existence.

Nonsense. That's not being bold, it's talking without any reference to reality.

If a decision has been made that lifelines are required based on the two incidents you're referring to, it's fairly described as a knee jerk reaction until there's some identification that lack of lifelines contributed to those particular incidents. To my knowledge there hasn't been any relevant finding either way.

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52 minutes ago, Flatbag said:

Fucked you say? TWO dead sailors and you still think its an overreaction? You might like to speak with the families and friends of those two deceased sailors or perhaps the crews of the yachts that pulled them from the water, and see how they felt about it at the time and how they are still feeling about it today. I would be so bold as to suggest that the Race Officer for the next event in which a keel boat sailor dies while racing on Port Phillip will very likely face some time at Her Majesties pleasure and the conducting Club will likely be sued out of existence. Would you be prepared to volunteer your services as an R/O with that hanging over you?                            

FYI Keel boats and most dinghy classes have had the same max wind speed (25 Kts) at which they will start races here on Port Phillip for many years. One major difference is that the dinghies are sailing much closer to shore and will have  rescue boats close at hand. That is not the case for keel boats which are expected to be self-sufficient. 

Flatbag, good response which I totally agree with. SYC are using the PFD flag being flown quite frequency lately even for many of the twilight races. The Royals Adams 10's may need to consider installing lifelines shortly if they are to be any chance of wining the Association Cup!

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To Quote Hoppy - "The Association cup is racing that is no different to any other club racing run on the bay and of no greater risk". 

Except that, in recent years,  two bloody good blokes have died doing it.

His claim that it is a "Knee jerk overreaction by SYC with the convenience of knocking out some of the more competitive IRC race boats on the bay" is plain stupid. I now know there has been a lot going on in the background for many months at the highest level of the Club and a lot of top flight legal expertise has been applied to get to the position they have now adopted. His inference that they would adopt that position with the intent of gaining some sort of competitive advantage is particularly offensive. 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Flatbag said:

To Quote Hoppy - "The Association cup is racing that is no different to any other club racing run on the bay and of no greater risk". 

Except that, in recent years,  two bloody good blokes have died doing it.

His claim that it is a "Knee jerk overreaction by SYC with the convenience of knocking out some of the more competitive IRC race boats on the bay" is plain stupid. I now know there has been a lot going on in the background for many months at the highest level of the Club and a lot of top flight legal expertise has been applied to get to the position they have now adopted. His inference that they would adopt that position with the intent of gaining some sort of competitive advantage is particularly offensive. 

 

 

So tell me Flatbag, who is at fault for the sailor deaths?

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1 hour ago, Flatbag said:

  

FYI Keel boats and most dinghy classes have had the same max wind speed (25 Kts) at which they will start races here on Port Phillip for many years.

 

FB, that is an untrue statement, please retract it.

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21 hours ago, Chucky said:

Its sad that Royals have declined to race safely with the life line requirements! SYC have done the right thing given the previous history of two skippers loss of life from Royals Adams 10 boats. Royals would also struggle to find any race boats left anyway without any of their Adam 10 racing!

Its not sad at all, they are quite within their rights to not enter the event. I would have done the same if I was still the CC.

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17 hours ago, Curious said:

Pardon me for asking, but isn't the series sailed on the same water that dinghies, beach cats, Etchells, Diamonds and Dragons sail on without lifelines?

Correct, this has implications for all those classes of boat. Same reason that we asked ORCV to change the safety category of their winter series about twelve years ago.

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1 hour ago, Flatbag said:

Fucked you say? TWO dead sailors and you still think its an overreaction? You might like to speak with the families and friends of those two deceased sailors or perhaps the crews of the yachts that pulled them from the water, and see how they felt about it at the time and how they are still feeling about it today. I would be so bold as to suggest that the Race Officer for the next event in which a keel boat sailor dies while racing on Port Phillip will very likely face some time at Her Majesties pleasure and the conducting Club will likely be sued out of existence. Would you be prepared to volunteer your services as an R/O with that hanging over you?                            

FYI Keel boats and most dinghy classes have had the same max wind speed (25 Kts) at which they will start races here on Port Phillip for many years. One major difference is that the dinghies are sailing much closer to shore and will have  rescue boats close at hand. That is not the case for keel boats which are expected to be self-sufficient. 

And it didn't help the multiple people that have fallen off boats with lifelines either, sadly.

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45 minutes ago, Flatbag said:

To Quote Hoppy - "The Association cup is racing that is no different to any other club racing run on the bay and of no greater risk". 

Except that, in recent years,  two bloody good blokes have died doing it.

His claim that it is a "Knee jerk overreaction by SYC with the convenience of knocking out some of the more competitive IRC race boats on the bay" is plain stupid. I now know there has been a lot going on in the background for many months at the highest level of the Club and a lot of top flight legal expertise has been applied to get to the position they have now adopted. His inference that they would adopt that position with the intent of gaining some sort of competitive advantage is particularly offensive. 

 

 

So why are they still allowing 11m OD's to race in their own club racing without fitting lifelines? Will SYC request that such prescriptions be brought forward to the Range series?

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11 minutes ago, MelbourneA31 said:

So why are they still allowing 11m OD's to race in their own club racing without fitting lifelines? Will SYC request that such prescriptions be brought forward to the Range series?

Not often I agree with you MA31, but with this and your earlier comments I'm 100% in agreement

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56 minutes ago, Don said:

Not often I agree with you MA31, but with this and your earlier comments I'm 100% in agreement

Maybe you are coming into the mainstream of intelligent thought Don! In all seriousness, this sort of thing has really dire consequences for racing Etchells and Dragons if the wrong people get a hold of it. And believe me, the wrong people have tried to inflict their opinions on that type of racing before via the YV Race Officials Committee.

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3 hours ago, Flatbag said:

Two dead sailors is not enough precedent for you ?

Not if it the lack of life lines had nothing to do with their deaths. I'm not sure it did from the reports I've heard, but, if that is the conclusion in the coroner's report, then I think that Australian Sailing's Special Regulations would have to be reviewed. I'd suggest the clubs getting together to do this rather than prescribing an amendment in the NoR.

 

2 hours ago, Flatbag said:

You might like to speak with the families and friends of those two deceased sailors or perhaps the crews of the yachts that pulled them from the water, and see how they felt about it at the time and how they are still feeling about it today.

I'm very sure that Max, who I didn't know personally but others that I know did, would not like to see the Adams 10s ruled out of any racing.

Overall, I am strong believer in Rule 4. Everybody racing has the opportunity to say these conditions aren't right for my boat / crew / skill level and cease racing. Whilst basic safety requirements should be and are mandatory, I think this one oversteps the mark.

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1 hour ago, MelbourneA31 said:

And it didn't help the multiple people that have fallen off boats with lifelines either, sadly.

The facts are from previous Association Cup events run only once a year:

1. First Death 2009?? - Adam's 10 racing boat with no lifelines, helms person lost over board and dies (no PFD on). Conditions 30Kts plus

NOR changed to make if mandatory for PFD to be word on keel boats with no lifelines 

2. Second Death 2018 - Another Adams 10 racing with no lifelines, helms-person lost overboard and dies, apparently wearing a PFD! Conditions 30Kts plus

I believe the SYC RC have made their decision for a reason and it is hard to believe that Royals have declined to participate with the requirement for lifelines  based both these incidents coming from their own club and MelbourneA31 being a previous CC?

Note - Keel boat races may start in 25kts (Upper limit) but many of them may be raced and finished in 30kts plus, just look at the previous Association Cup events

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Seems reasonable to me as a sign of respect to the previous incidents :

Australian Sailing (AS) Prescriptions and Special Regulations Part 1 Category 6 shall apply, modified as follows:

a) Cl 3.12 Pulpits, Stanchions and Lifelines for Category 4 shall apply.

b) Cl 3.14 Toe Rail or Foot-Stop for Category 4 shall apply. 

c) Cl 3.24.3 through Cl 3.24.9 Engines for Category 5 shall apply. "

Compulsory life lines on an Adams 10 is a real pain. Due to the geometry of that particular boat it is really hard to sail well without getting the sheets  caught.  The stanchions probably get bent after a race or two any away. The Adams 10 boats without life lines in RMYS and RYCV are pretty competitive.  It is a shame to exclude them and I can understand how this exclusion is interpreted as a act of war.

I thought this was a thread about big boats ?

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1 hour ago, Don said:

So tell me Flatbag, who is at fault for the sailor deaths?

Who is at fault - ask the Coroner. The report on Graeme Paul's death was handed down some years ago and and is a matter of public record. I don't know if the Top Gun case has reached that stage yet.

 

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1 hour ago, Flatbag said:

Who is at fault - ask the Coroner. The report on Graeme Paul's death was handed down some years ago and and is a matter of public record. I don't know if the Top Gun case has reached that stage yet.

 

Your answer does not help.

The Coroner found in the case of Graeme Paul, that it was a preventable death. Graeme was the only crew onboard the yacht not wearing a life vest. The broken tiller arm bracket showed signs of progressive deterioration over time with visible hair line cracks.

So, the incident occurred due to lack of maintenance, not lack of lifelines. Who is responsible for a yachts serviceability? the owner/skipper, who in this instance was Graeme Paul. 

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So there's no good boats at RYCV so they pull the pin, fair enough, maybe build the floating marina and you might be able to save the club...?

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11 minutes ago, Checked said:

So there's no good boats at RYCV so they pull the pin, fair enough, maybe build the floating marina and you might be able to save the club...?

The surest way to kill a club is put in a floating marina unless the club owns all of the berths and never sells them by way of a grant of long term leases.

Inevitably the facility just becomes a boat storage facility and the club , an inconvenient add on which eventually fails where most of the people storing their boats never partake in club events.

In a perfect world the club owns all of the berths and if you don't do say 15 club events a year you are off the marina let someone else in.

I have been involved in plenty of marina/club litigation in case you are asking.

I hear that the Mooloolaba Marina company has approval for a 14 storey block of the units on the site while the former club building is a public restaurant.

A club of which I am a member and where I hold a long term lease has about 700 berths where most leases expire in 2041 but struggles to get 5 Div 1 IRC boats on a weekend.

Moreton Bay Boat Club is not long for this world on all accounts.

I understand that CYCA control all of their marina berths.

Sorrento has been smart never building a marina.

My 20 cents!

 

 

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10 hours ago, Flatbag said:

To Quote Hoppy - "The Association cup is racing that is no different to any other club racing run on the bay and of no greater risk". 

Except that, in recent years,  two bloody good blokes have died doing it.

His claim that it is a "Knee jerk overreaction by SYC with the convenience of knocking out some of the more competitive IRC race boats on the bay" is plain stupid. I now know there has been a lot going on in the background for many months at the highest level of the Club and a lot of top flight legal expertise has been applied to get to the position they have now adopted. His inference that they would adopt that position with the intent of gaining some sort of competitive advantage is particularly offensive. 

 

 

Do you know what instructions were put to the lawyers and what advice they gave? Do you know whether the advice was followed? Do you know whether the lawyers are appropriately specialised? Or is the “top flight legal expertise” from sailors who happen to be lawyers (and maybe bloody good ones)?

the existence of “months” of “a lot going on” at SYC and the fact that lawyers have somehow been involved is not in any way inconsistent with the response being knee jerk. Particularly if it’s right that it’s based on the two A10 incidents, neither of which have any associated finding that a lack of lifelines contributed.

If you know of such a finding do let us know

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22 hours ago, lydia said:

A club of which I am a member and where I hold a long term lease has about 700 berths where most leases expire in 2041 but struggles to get 5 Div 1 IRC boats on a weekend.

Maybe you should get boats rated for AMS instead

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Tried to get that going but seemed like the club was not very supportive as no money went to Sailing Australia

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I can’t imagine racing a keelboat without lifelines and stanchions, the amount of times they’ve stopped me and a crewman from going overboard is too numerous to mention. 

Racing in our bay can be pretty ordinary due to the depth causing some nasty short swells, so even in the bay they’re a bonus. 

You can’t use Etchells and the like as a comparison , there’s almost as many Ribs as sailboats in most classes. 

I’m so skinny I’d probably succumb to hypothermia if I went for a swim in Port Phillip bay!

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13 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

I can’t imagine racing a keelboat without lifelines and stanchions, the amount of times they’ve stopped me and a crewman from going overboard is too numerous to mention. 

Racing in our bay can be pretty ordinary due to the depth causing some nasty short swells, so even in the bay they’re a bonus. 

You can’t use Etchells and the like as a comparison , there’s almost as many Ribs as sailboats in most classes. 

I’m so skinny I’d probably succumb to hypothermia if I went for a swim in Port Phillip bay!

Ever heard of Etchells, Dragons, 5.5 meters, 6 meters, 8 metres, 12 metres, couta boats, J-class, Yglings, Flying Fifteens, Tumlarens, Americas Cup monohulls and multihulls, Int. 11 metres, Diamonds, etc. etc. etc.

In fact up until the introduction of fibreglass production "cruiser racers" in the early 70's nearly all true "racing" keelboats did NOT have lifelines.

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2 minutes ago, Don said:

Ever heard of Etchells, Dragons, 5.5 meters, 6 meters, 8 metres, 12 metres, couta boats, J-class, Yglings, Flying Fifteens, Tumarens, Americas Cup monohulls and multihulls, Int. 11 metres, Diamonds, etc. etc. etc.

In fact up until the introduction of fibreglass production "cruiser racers" in the early 70's nearly all true "racing" keelboats did NOT have lifelines.

G'day Don,

Yep, and I get all that. 

But lifelines do work. If you're racing keelboats, and you don't have a plethora of support boats standing by, it's just a common sense approach. 

As an owner, I always ask myself one question. Have I done enough from a safety aspect to stand in a dock in a coroners inquest and prove I did everything in my power to make my crew safe.

Let alone knocking on the door of my crews loved ones and answering the same question.

Each to their own. 

 

 

 

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Shaggy, the "plethora of support boats" is a pretty recent thing. We used to race Etchells offshore regularly with none. Pittwater fleet raced in the ocean for a few decades with no support boat. I think Cronulla has no support boats.

While the PP A10 deaths are tragic, there will always be deaths even if we all just sit at home. Driving to the club could be one of the most dangerous things we do. Just sitting at home and getting unfit instead of driving to the club is probably even worse.

How are your crew helmets and boom padding getting on?

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26 minutes ago, Curious said:

Shaggy, the "plethora of support boats" is a pretty recent thing. We used to race Etchells offshore regularly with none. Pittwater fleet raced in the ocean for a few decades with no support boat. I think Cronulla has no support boats.

While the PP A10 deaths are tragic, there will always be deaths even if we all just sit at home. Driving to the club could be one of the most dangerous things we do. Just sitting at home and getting unfit instead of driving to the club is probably even worse.

How are your crew helmets and boom padding getting on?

:)

I'm hearing you Curious. 

I just can't help thinking that how we used to do things just doesn't hold water anymore. Over-regulation and excessive oversight in our sport will happen if we don't meet what modern society would decree as a minimum standard.

We all bitch and moan when more regulations and oversight are brought into the sport, I for one hate it. But this means we need to show we are not deserving of this need for oversight, and explaining that this is how we used to sail just doesn't hold up to scrutiny in the modern day.  

Edit: For what it's worth, I'm not obsessed about it and can be as guilty as the next guy in certain aspects, I don't mandate pfd's in a daylight bay race, we're never clipped on etc etc. But I do see the safety compliance as a good thing and I actually enjoy the audits, it keeps me from getting complacent. 

Don't forget that our Category compliance is a minimum standard, not the be all. Hard to argue in court we're not partly to blame if we don't even meet the minimum standard.  

     

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Shaggy, world has done a compete about face.

AMSA has gone 180.

It is all about the "primary safety obligation" and not prescribed lists.

Prescription just makes a rod for the backs of masters now.

The primary safety obligation (what ever that is) is a matter for the master and if they breach it, their problem.

AS setting minimum standards actually creates a problem.

Here is an example.

So we sometimes sail an etchell on the Huon river with snow melt lowering the already cold water temp.

No AS requirement requires me to carry a thermal blanket in case of an immersion event.

To satisfy the primary safety obligation it would be the most logical equipment to carry on an open boat at that latitude.

Saying I had the AS prescribed equipment will not help me as I am obliged to make an independent assessment as a master.

Any competent master would say what is the most likely incident to happen and what should carry on board.

Needless to say I carry one.

It cost $14.00

The primary safety obligation as codified by statute requires different assessments on different voyages so one size never fits all now yet we have set of SA prescriptions.

 

 

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16 hours ago, hoppy said:

There was some death defying insanity in the Tumlaren championships on the bay today. Fathag and the SYC would have been horrified

 

56862202_2247133258712555_26187814517509

Best thing about this pic is the timber spars, dacron sails but a velocitek.

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3 hours ago, lydia said:

Shaggy, world has done a compete about face.

AMSA has gone 180.

It is all about the "primary safety obligation" and not prescribed lists.

Prescription just makes a rod for the backs of masters now.

The primary safety obligation (what ever that is) is a matter for the master and if they breach it, their problem.

AS setting minimum standards actually creates a problem.

Here is an example.

So we sometimes sail an etchell on the Huon river with snow melt lowering the already cold water temp.

No AS requirement requires me to carry a thermal blanket in case of an immersion event.

To satisfy the primary safety obligation it would be the most logical equipment to carry on an open boat at that latitude.

Saying I had the AS prescribed equipment will not help me as I am obliged to make an independent assessment as a master.

Any competent master would say what is the most likely incident to happen and what should carry on board.

Needless to say I carry one.

It cost $14.00

The primary safety obligation as codified by statute requires different assessments on different voyages so one size never fits all now yet we have set of SA prescriptions.

 

 

Thanks Lydia, 

So I can get my head around it...

You’re doing a day race in sheltered waters at Hammo. You’re compliant to Cat5 as required by the SI’s. 

A crewman goes overboard, and whilst he’s swimming around he gets stung by a box jellyfish.

we haul him back on board but he has a seizure and dies . I had no vinegar or hydrocortisone cream on board.

If I understand correctly, according to AMSA I am liable (in part) for his death?

Cheers,

SB

 

 

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5 hours ago, Don said:

Ever heard of Etchells, Dragons, 5.5 meters, 6 meters, 8 metres, 12 metres, couta boats, J-class, Yglings, Flying Fifteens, Tumlarens, Americas Cup monohulls and multihulls, Int. 11 metres, Diamonds, etc. etc. etc.

In fact up until the introduction of fibreglass production "cruiser racers" in the early 70's nearly all true "racing" keelboats did NOT have lifelines.

For those who might not know, this was filmed on Anarchist "Don"s boat. Cant imagine why a boat like his has lifelines. Can you?

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51 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

Thanks Lydia, 

So I can get my head around it...

You’re doing a day race in sheltered waters at Hammo. You’re compliant to Cat5 as required by the SI’s. 

A crewman goes overboard, and whilst he’s swimming around he gets stung by a box jellyfish.

we haul him back on board but he has a seizure and dies . I had no vinegar or hydrocortisone cream on board.

If I understand correctly, according to AMSA I am liable (in part) for his death?

Cheers,

SB

 

 

Shaggy

not a great a example as a box jellyfish sting is not really a boating death.

Have a look how the primary safety obligation is defined.

 

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55 minutes ago, Flatbag said:

For those who might not know, this was filmed on Anarchist "Don"s boat. Cant imagine why a boat like his has lifelines. Can you?

What is your point here FB? My boat has always had lifelines, and we have never had a man overboard.

Unlike 2 yachts sailing at SYC in a Wednesday Wonders race a little while back, they had 3 MOB's and they both have lifelines.

The issue is SYC mandating via NOR a couple of Cat 4 requirements and one cat 5 requirement for a series of what they designated as cat 6 races being sailed by keelboats in Port Philip. These being no more than 2 nm from the club house. Was it for safety? Why didn't they designate the series as Cat 4 if that was what they required.

I know what I think the SYC are up to, so I refused to accept their NOR and instead raced at Royal Brighton for the winter series. I will not enter my boat in a race run by SYC again, based on current NOR's

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Ya can't mandate for incompetence...driving past the RBYC/SYC fleet on Saturday arvo I witnessed a boat motoring upwind towards SYC - kite up and all other sails down....yep! Motoring upwind with kite all over the forestay mast and spreaders....it was perfect conditions presumably motoring to her berth - sunshine, flatwater & 10kts...FFS!!!

 

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14 hours ago, hoppy said:

I'm curious about your beef with SYC's NOR

Some things I've noticed

Entry fee $115    (our entry is free for club boats)

1.1 SYC Membership and MemberPoint sign on Before each race, all boats are required to sign on all their crew via the MemberPoint app. (MemberPoint > member services > crew sign on).

Does this mean that all crew must be members? no day passes? If that's the case, that then sucks...

Hard to explain, so I copied this from the SYC web site

WANT TO GO SAILING – AFFORDABLE DAILY RACE DAY ACCESS

Like all sporting clubs, there are fees associated with regular usage of that facility and enjoying the services it provides. At SYC we make it easy and affordable for potential new members to try out sailing and our facilities without having to immediately subscribe to annual membership.

The Club provides a ‘Day Pass Membership’ at a minimal cost. This enables you to sail at the Club and to then use the clubhouse facilities post-race. The ‘Day Pass Membership’ allows you to do this up to 12 times before you need to subscribe to annual membership. What’s even better, any money you spend on the Day Pass Membership will reduce your nomination fee when you do switch over to annual membership.

DAY PASS MEMBERSHIP AT SYC WORKS LIKE THIS;

  • The first 6 day passes cost $15 per sail     (Thursday Twilight Sailing – No Charge)

  • The following 6 day passes cost $35 per sail

Once you have sailed 12 times, you then need to become an annual member. The $300 you have paid to date then equates to the ‘Crew’ membership nomination fee – so effectively when you upgrade to annual membership, you pay the subscription only and not the nomination fee.

I am still trying to work out what facilities a "non-member" uses, that I as a senior member haven't already paid for, when they walk from the public car park to my boat, go sailing, then walk back to their car in the public car park, without going into the clubhouse.

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I remember when my old club stopped allowing non members to do twilight races as crew. Within a few years, the fleet had dropped dramatically. Even good boats find it hard to find enough good crew for twilight races a lot of the time. Discouraging people from hopping into a boat can lead to owners dropping out. I'm fairly sure that I have never heard a single offshore-type boat owner arguing that YA should have started requiring crew to be members of any club.

And yes, it's hard to work out what facilities a crew uses. Berths and bars should be profit earners, not something that other members (owners or crew) should subsidise. Toilets don't cost too much. Dinghy clubs manage to run races without eight members per boat so why can't yacht clubs?I'm not racing my boat seriously because it's hard enough to find eight people per race without having to get them to join another club as well. So my YC's policy of only allowing members to be regular crew is costing it bar profits and one semi-regular entry.

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SYC would be my choice in Melbourne BUT as I am between opportunities (aka unemployed) I am struggling to justify to the Minister of Finance that the costs associated are necessary.

Add in the 40 minutes in the car each way and paying for parking for what might be an hour twilight race.

Do any Melbourne Clubs have reciprocal rights with the Canberra Yacht Club? 

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