• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Editor

Speed Freak

48 posts in this topic

Speed Freak

 

The hydrofoil Hydroptere set two world speed records off Lorient, France yesterday, one going 41.5 knots in one nautical mile, and one going 44.5 knots in 500 meters (we think). Both are subject to official homologation by ISAF/World Sailing Speed Council Record but it is pretty damn impressive no matter how you slice it! Thanks to Arnaud Pilpre / Sea & Co for the outstanding photographic work!

 

04/05/07

hydro_record.jpg_sml.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

awesome

 

more pics ??

 

link??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the 2nd record is "1 nautical mile", not a 1000 metres.

 

edit: pretty impressive!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a pretty impressive boat.

 

They're still 4.2kts from the outright speed record.

 

I said it in the last thread about this, but I wouldn't be surprised if they could pick up a substantial part of that 4.2kts just by getting a smaller rig, and getting rid of the furled sails.

 

edit - it looks like in the photo from yestarday, they did get rid of the furled sail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think it's not even fair to compare this machine to other purpose-built speedsters: none of them would survive 2 minutes, forget beat any records in the seas this record was set. It's not your ideal flat-water trench, it's just a normal breezy day in Atlantic!

 

I agree that the boat can sail fast in some pretty rough conditions, but so can windsurfers.

 

In any case, they have invited the comparison by stating that their aim is to beat the outright record.

 

Bjorn Dunkerbeck has done an open water nautical mile (on a windsurfer) at an average speed of 41.1 kts - which I think was the nautical mile record before this one at 41.5kts.

 

Anyway it's great effort, and I expect to see them go even faster. Competition is what drives things forward.

 

I have much greater respect for Hydropteur - which at least can sail on two tacks - than something like MI, which really does seem to need mirror flat water just to avoid self-destructing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would they not have gone faster with the full sail but sailing lower angles? I know it's an apparent wind machine anyway, but this would get better sail shapes and you'd probably be going with the waves; it might be a hydroplaner, but the waves will still cause drag on the foils.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These guys are fantastic, so is the boat.

 

But, better aerodynamics and a smaller rig and they would have gone over 50 by now IMHO, wheneve we see it at speed it's heavily reefed, don't need the top third of the rig at all...just drag, and at 45knots, lots of drag.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Issue the Goggles! B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm glad it's areal boat and not some stupid windsurfer which should have it's own separate speed title.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The loads on the foils must be huge .

 

It seems the center hull of a tri configuration is useless once it reaches foil lift speed

 

My guess is a cat configuration would be lighter and faster given similar beam .

 

Agree on the sail plan too , a main with some canting aspects and of various sail area sizes much like windsurfer sails for different wind conditions would increase speed as well.

 

 

One other foil configuration available for a cat with more box shaped hulls is two paralell boards in each hull with a connector bottom foil , much like a T foil rudder but resulting in U shape boards ,the bottom of the U being the lifting foil, the bottom foil could extend past the verticle boards for added area.

 

Canted hulls would establish the foil angle which ideally might be around the angle from the CE on the sail to the beam , --around 20 degrees outward.

 

The advantage of the cat with this foil configuration is the foils being outboard more at the point of lift giving the craft greater overall effective beam .

 

The tri configuration angles inward and beam becomes effectively less as it lifts .

 

Haven't followed the speed trials or new sailing craft in a while , have any experimented with this type of cat configuration yet ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is just straight up DEAD SEXY! The most impressive part is that it's a boat that they PLAN on doing passages with...not something the goes one direction...gets taken apart, and reassembled every run.

 

Cheers! Or however they would say that in French!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It seems the center hull of a tri configuration is useless once it reaches foil lift speed

 

Need the centre hull to take the massive rig tension required to keep the headstay tight - a cat would be just as heavy because it would need shit loads of strengthening to stop it bending.

 

Fucking crazy amazing boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before anybody asks, it doesn't matter what it rates. Send me one of those immediately. Probaby should send the guys that can sail it too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Before anybody asks, it doesn't matter what it rates. Send me one of those immediately. Probaby should send the guys that can sail it too.

 

 

French you do realise ?

:P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Would they not have gone faster with the full sail but sailing lower angles? I know it's an apparent wind machine anyway, but this would get better sail shapes and you'd probably be going with the waves; it might be a hydroplaner, but the waves will still cause drag on the foils.

 

 

I think they're on a reach in the picture. Best I can tell, the waves are rear-quartering her, looks like a bit aft of beam. Really, without seeing video, it's hard to make such a judgment. She may well have been working b/forth to power up and depower.

 

--just went lookseed the vid. Yep, she's reachin'.--

 

Multihulls don't go fast dead or deep downwind - that's a leaner thing. We reach... and she be reachin'.

 

That pic is SO KEWL. Breakin records while reefed. Wow.

 

Vive l'Hydroptere!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is badass! Three day Pac Cup anyone?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where's Doug Lord when you need him? This thing is for real. No canting keels. No moveable water ballast. Just flat out hauling ass. I wonder what would happen if you had T foils like the moth on each hull and a way to have the windward foil pull down while the leeward foils lift. Set up a control like an airplane so you can change the heel with the foils rather than balast. The loads would be juge but maybe you could go full sail without flipping.

 

F'ing awsome boat. I'd hate to hit something or flip at those speeds in something that size though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not the biggest fan of multihulls, but that %#*()&$!!! Whats that? A zillion bucks for the boat? I'll take two!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Speed Freak

 

The hydrofoil Hydroptere set two world speed records off Lorient, France yesterday, one going 41.5 knots in one nautical mile, and one going 44.5 knots in 500 meters (we think). Both are subject to official homologation by ISAF/World Sailing Speed Council

 

When you calculate how much they took off the nautical mile record with such a sophisticated boat that has a computer analysing 65 sensors measuring various things along with ultrasonic height sensors it makes you wonder at what cost this effort has been done.

 

Lets keep in mind the records are still unofficial at this stage!

 

Previous record 41.14 knots over NM

=21.027 m/s

NM covered in 87.506 seconds

 

Hydroptere supposedly did (not official yet) 41.5 knots.

=21.211 m/s

NM covered in 86.747 seconds

So they beat the record by a whopping 0.759 of a second

 

44.5 knots is well short of the outright 500m record

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To all of you who have the least bit negative to say about this boat, Fu&*&ck you!, you can't have one!

 

A few comments that haven't been said:

 

This boat has been 47knts uncertified.

 

Yes, the wheel and driving seat are like a car, hard to appreciate but the accelleration of this boat could probably knock you down.

 

True, it does not have a canting keel but it does have shock absorbers on the main foils, that works but it can't be that simple.

 

This boat is a few years old, they've just now getting it dialed in. It was prototyped halfsize, I wonder where that boat is.

 

When is it going around the world?

 

enough already!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mega Super Awesome! I want one for the Great Lakes and do the Macs with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was really lucky (or duped) to meet some of the guys from the team at a pub on one of my trips overseas. Have no way to verify they were who they said they were and wish I could remember half of what we talked about between too many bottles, but the stories were amazing.

 

Somebody mentioned no water ballest on this thread. If I have it right, there actually is (or was) water ballest used for trim. At the time they did not think they had too much rig or aero drag. We did discuss cat and the other frenchy (I think) with the stepped hulls (which these guys eventually adopted). I am really reaching here but I think the issue with the cat was a need for four foil (2 rudders) and there would be more drag.

 

But like I said I could have been played like a fiddle that night... I was so wasted after closing a deal and being glad to be headed home.

 

One way or the other its an amazing boat.

 

Wess

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have little knowledge about boats of this calibur, but I have lots of knowledge about people here.

 

My first question to all of those here making suggestions... Don't you think they thought of that already?

 

Second I suspect the rig/sails and the center hull have a lot to do with getting to speed and foiling. Not sure if they reef as they go up in speed, but you get the point. You don't just set the sails and point the boat like a 4ksb. It must be wild watching the AWAs while getting up to speed. At 40 knots in 40 knots TW a beam reach turns into close hauled... look at the waves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The loads on the foils must be huge .

 

It seems the center hull of a tri configuration is useless once it reaches foil lift speed

 

My guess is a cat configuration would be lighter and faster given similar beam .

 

Agree on the sail plan too , a main with some canting aspects and of various sail area sizes much like windsurfer sails for different wind conditions would increase speed as well.

One other foil configuration available for a cat with more box shaped hulls is two paralell boards in each hull with a connector bottom foil , much like a T foil rudder but resulting in U shape boards ,the bottom of the U being the lifting foil, the bottom foil could extend past the verticle boards for added area.

 

Canted hulls would establish the foil angle which ideally might be around the angle from the CE on the sail to the beam , --around 20 degrees outward.

 

The advantage of the cat with this foil configuration is the foils being outboard more at the point of lift giving the craft greater overall effective beam .

 

The tri configuration angles inward and beam becomes effectively less as it lifts .

 

Haven't followed the speed trials or new sailing craft in a while , have any experimented with this type of cat configuration yet ?

 

The center hull may have a few uses here.

1) The rudder is attached to it.

2) the mast is attached to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The center hull may have a few uses here.

1) The rudder is attached to it.

2) the mast is attached to it.

 

Cat vs tri configuration for foiler design .

 

Too much bending in a cat, the tri is stiffer was a design objection one made , the extra drag of two rudders was another.

 

If the intent of the design is an all around racing machine one could argue the tri configuration would do well in lighter winds below foil lift speed ,--though so could the cat configuration.

 

The round the world races in 04 featured Playstation and other huge cats , one developed structural problems at the crossbeam hull connection with an O ring system used but I don't think that is reason enough to think the Tri configuration is superior, particularly for a foiler.

 

http://www.morrellimelvin.com/playstation/index.html

 

Two rudders would add some additional drag but also stabalize the lifting platform moreso . A more stable sail plan is a faster sailplan . The two rudders could be proportionally smaller than one main rudder on the tri also.

 

I think the mast and related stress and bending problems in the cat configuration could be overcome by using an A frame support that allows a canting rig .

 

Chris White pattened his design .

 

http://www.wingo.com/chriswhite/tiltrig.html

 

The base of the mast sits on a traveler ,--as it adjusts from center the geometry of the rig cants over and back for higher speeds and lift not unlike a board sail.

 

Add a large kite like the 18 skiffs with lots of luff angle and the sail plan would add greatly to the foil lifting capability .

 

I think a larger A frame stayed rig that allowed the mast to be supported at the connection rather than on a traveler would work better and could be similarly adjusted .

 

Engineering wise it would take the stress out of the center of the crossbeams and transfer the loads to each hull in the cat configuration, that would solve the stress in bending problems to some extent It could also be more balanced much like a sunfish lateen rig with part of the sail area forward of the A frame and pivot point.

 

One other advantage an A fram rig would have is its ability to be used to right a multihull after a capsize . Obviously the A frame would need to be aerodynamic and made like two wing masts joined at the top.

 

There is something wonderfull in the creative design process and always enjoy design threads and BSing about faster sailing craft and designs in general .

 

Damn --now I want to build an experimental craft again .

 

fast is fun .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When you calculate how much they took off the nautical mile record with such a sophisticated boat that has a computer analysing 65 sensors measuring various things along with ultrasonic height sensors it makes you wonder at what cost this effort has been done.

 

Lets keep in mind the records are still unofficial at this stage!

 

Previous record 41.14 knots over NM

=21.027 m/s

NM covered in 87.506 seconds

 

Hydroptere supposedly did (not official yet) 41.5 knots.

=21.211 m/s

NM covered in 86.747 seconds

So they beat the record by a whopping 0.759 of a second

 

44.5 knots is well short of the outright 500m record

 

 

Uuuummmm, 0.759 of a second is NOT a lot, you think?

 

First of all, a record is a record. If you're fastest, you get braggin rights, no matter how much you beat the previous record by... Just look at olympic sprinters, for example. The records there go up by only a few hundreds of a second at a time, and people still deserve the medals and the kudos.

 

Second, compare this effort to many motorsports, F1 in particular. F1 teams invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year (literally) to gain fractions of a second over the competition (Toyota and Ferrari are rumored to lead that pack in dollars spent, with 200-400 MILLION US$ each per year (and surprisingly different results!)). I don't know how much the Hydroptere guys have spent so far, but I've got to imagine it's only a small fraction of a single F1 team. And in F1, 0.7 seconds per mile would be a MASSIVE advantage over another car... the teams would be ecstatic to get that kind of improvement in performance for their investment over the course of a season.

 

So... stow the sour grapes, and join us adoring public! Go L'Hydroptere! :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think you want a big kite like an 18. You'd do better with a flat reacher with a wire luff. The aparent wind moves so far forward that you don't need a big kite to go deep. 18's have a huge kite to get a better VMG when on a W/L course. Cats that use an A sail, do so at a higher angle and have flatter kites. Properly sailed, this thing should never have the aparent wind behind the beam.

 

The comments about canting keels and water ballast came from a highjacked thread in DA on 18's. I think USA-7 posted the link to the train wreck earlier so I won't add it again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree that the boat can sail fast in some pretty rough conditions, but so can windsurfers.

 

In any case, they have invited the comparison by stating that their aim is to beat the outright record.

 

Bjorn Dunkerbeck has done an open water nautical mile (on a windsurfer) at an average speed of 41.1 kts - which I think was the nautical mile record before this one at 41.5kts.

 

Anyway it's great effort, and I expect to see them go even faster. Competition is what drives things forward.

 

I have much greater respect for Hydropteur - which at least can sail on two tacks - than something like MI, which really does seem to need mirror flat water just to avoid self-destructing.

 

 

Soon as I see a windsurfer take an Atlantic crossing record (or just get across at all - without stopping or having support boats) I'll consider them the same way as sailboats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

QUOTE(razorback @ Apr 5 2007, 09:40 PM)

Before anybody asks, it doesn't matter what it rates. Send me one of those immediately. Probaby should send the guys that can sail it too.

 

 

French you do realise ?

:P

 

 

That's okay. The money saved on laundry and showers can go to wine and cheese sauce.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ratio between whats in the water and sail area must be a pretty impressive number.I wonder how this number would measure up against a windsurfer?

From the picture it appears only the leward and rudder foils are in the water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Where's Doug Lord when you need him? This thing is for real. No canting keels. No moveable water ballast. Just flat out hauling ass. I wonder what would happen if you had T foils like the moth on each hull and a way to have the windward foil pull down while the leeward foils lift. Set up a control like an airplane so you can change the heel with the foils rather than balast. The loads would be juge but maybe you could go full sail without flipping.

 

F'ing awsome boat. I'd hate to hit something or flip at those speeds in something that size though.

 

I was thinking of doing that for an r/c cat, after my canter. There's a whole lot of things you can do with teensy boats that you could never pull off with something that big. It's be expensive as fuck even as an r/c boat... the radio by itself would probably be +/-$700. Then building the foils would be a real fucking treat :). Anyway, if I'm feeling ambitious and my present project works out, then I'll be on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After watching the video, I don't think DL understands how twitchy a bifoiling 60' boat would be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Congratulations to the Hydroptere team! Fantastic! I'll bet they get the outright record any day now..

For those interested Hydroptere uses movable ballast up to 1760lbs of water ballast in each mini ama-pumped from an intake on the rudder. Water ballast in the main hull can also be used for fore and aft trim. Hydroptere uses surface piercing foils and depends on the weight of the boat and ballast for righting moment.This extraordinary design is all the more incredible when you see the seas they're actually sailing in and the fact that they do this with a reefed rig instead of a dedicated "speed rig" makes their accomplishment all the more remarkabe. Way to go Hydroptere!

This photo is of an rc foiler(no longer produced) that scaled up would be almost the dimensions of Hydroptere. It uses fully submerged foils with the windward main foil pulling down and the leeward main foil lifting. It uses no ballast and has done close to 20 knots over a measured 500'. The boat uses two wands that work differentially to control altitude and provide RM. Designed by me;inspired by Dr. Sam Bradfield.

 

mfoilerf3_14a.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here comes the popcorn....

 

jibeset

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would take an Irish windsurfer over a French picklefork any day of the week. Ian!!, where are you...

 

Erin go braugh, bitches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Soon as I see a windsurfer take an Atlantic crossing record (or just get across at all - without stopping or having support boats) I'll consider them the same way as sailboats.

 

 

So you must definitely be of the opinion that that Yellow Pages Endeavour, and Macquarie Inovation are not sailboats, because neither of them can sail anywhere that's not as flat as your bathtub, without exploding.

 

Not only that, they can only sail on one tack - SO THEY CAN"T EVEN GET BACK TO WHERE THEY START FROM.

 

Windsurfers regularly sail in huge breaking waves - people sail them in hurricanes..., for fun. They can handle just about _any_ sea state.

 

Also, a french woman windsurfed across both the Atlantic, and the Pacific, without any support boats. Her board was just big enough to cary food and supplies for the trip, and she could get inside it to sleep, but it had a windsurfer rig.

 

I think Hydropteur is a fantastic boat, I hope to see it do amazing things, but I'll never own one.

 

I can however, own a garage fulll of windsurfers, and it's pretty easy for me to break 30kts on about $2k worth of equipment - so that's how I'll be getting my speed fix for now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's a pretty impressive boat.

 

They're still 4.2kts from the outright speed record.

 

I said it in the last thread about this, but I wouldn't be surprised if they could pick up a substantial part of that 4.2kts just by getting a smaller rig, and getting rid of the furled sails.

 

edit - it looks like in the photo from yestarday, they did get rid of the furled sail.

 

 

That is awesome!

 

4.2 kts… They may want to take a look at what is being doing in the ice boat arena. As you approach higher and higher speeds the sail aero dynamics (and more specifically drag) really start to kick in. Ice boats operate at speeds well above what we are seeing here, but the fundamentals should be considered.

 

In an ice boat you start out with a nice reach, that is where you get your horse power. But as you get up to speed and as the apparent goes forward you need to flatten out the sail. The flatter you can get it the higher your potential top speed.

 

Basically, you need some shape to get going but you need a board (no not wind surf) to fly.

 

The two attached will give an idea as to

1) Trying to make the sail as efficient as possible

2) Using mast bend to flatten out the sail

post-17827-1175866415_thumb.jpg

post-17827-1175866437_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Uuuummmm, 0.759 of a second is NOT a lot, you think?

 

First of all, a record is a record. If you're fastest, you get braggin rights, no matter how much you beat the previous record by...

 

Second, compare this effort to many motorsports, F1 in particular. F1 teams invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year (literally) to gain fractions of a second over the competition (Toyota and Ferrari are rumored to lead that pack in dollars spent, with 200-400 MILLION US$ each per year (and surprisingly different results!)). I don't know how much the Hydroptere guys have spent so far, but I've got to imagine it's only a small fraction of a single F1 team. And in F1, 0.7 seconds per mile would be a MASSIVE advantage over another car... the teams would be ecstatic to get that kind of improvement in performance for their investment over the course of a season.

 

So... stow the sour grapes, and join us adoring public! Go L'Hydroptere! :P

 

Yep 0.759 of a second is not a lot and it works out to be about 16 metres and this boat is 18 metres Long.So when you put this into perspective they were not even a boatlength in front of the record.

 

It is not a record untill it is officially ratified so maybe the french have shot off a little prematurely in claiming this.

 

If you want to compare this to motorsport then maybe Go Karts would be more suitable than F1 and lets face it 41.5 knots =76 Kph (47.5 Mph) is pretty slow even for a go kart.In F1 0.7 sec would probably separate the first 4-5 yet in karts 0.7 slower than pole probably puts you 45th on the grid in CIK racing.Computers and data loggers are common in Kart racing.

 

This Hydroptere was launched in 1994 so they have probably spent a truckload of money to get to this point and i cant recall them ever racing against the Orma 60ft trimarans and when you see they need min 12knots windspeed to fly it becomes obvious they would get flogged by an Orma tri in the lighter stuff.

 

As for the rest of you turkeys claiming they did this in waves it looked pretty flat in those photos and i wouldnt ride that thing in the southern ocean or Bass straight.You are dreaming if you think that thing will go RTW nonstop in any sort of record time.

 

It is not a case of sour grapes as i have always liked pickleforks and think cats which are two identical or mirror images of each other connected by long poles appear a bit homo.

 

I think this will be a short lived record if it is ratified as its not out of reach of the windsurfers and i think the newer maxi trimarans would also have a good chance at this record

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Need the centre hull to take the massive rig tension required to keep the headstay tight - a cat would be just as heavy because it would need shit loads of strengthening to stop it bending.

 

Fucking crazy amazing boat.

 

??????

 

Ensta_an2large.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites