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Brian Weslake

Larry wants to race

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From Valencia Sailing - http://valenciasailing.blogspot.com/2007/1...o-ahead-in.html

 

Call for America’s Cup to go ahead in Valencia in 2009

 

[source: Golden Gate Yacht Club] The Golden Gate Yacht Club will agree to comprehensive new compromises to get the America’s Cup back on track for Valencia in 2009 if the defender will disclose its rule for the boat's design.

 

“We are looking forward to putting this dispute about the rules behind us and racing for the America’s Cup in 2009 in Valencia as planned. That’s what we want, and that’s what all the challengers want,” Larry Ellison, syndicate head of the club’s America’s Cup team, BMW ORACLE Racing, said today.

 

“But it is impossible to accept a design rule that we have never seen.”

 

The American team has told challengers it is ready to agree to wide ranging new proposals discussed over the last 24 hours if it can confirm for itself that the design rule developed by Alinghi is fair for all competitors.

 

It has been normal practice over recent Cups for the design rule to be seen by all potential competitors well in advance of the event.

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From Valencia Sailing - http://valenciasailing.blogspot.com/2007/1...o-ahead-in.html

 

Call for America’s Cup to go ahead in Valencia in 2009

 

[source: Golden Gate Yacht Club] The Golden Gate Yacht Club will agree to comprehensive new compromises to get the America’s Cup back on track for Valencia in 2009 if the defender will disclose its rule for the boat's design.

 

“We are looking forward to putting this dispute about the rules behind us and racing for the America’s Cup in 2009 in Valencia as planned. That’s what we want, and that’s what all the challengers want,” Larry Ellison, syndicate head of the club’s America’s Cup team, BMW ORACLE Racing, said today.

 

“But it is impossible to accept a design rule that we have never seen.”

 

The American team has told challengers it is ready to agree to wide ranging new proposals discussed over the last 24 hours if it can confirm for itself that the design rule developed by Alinghi is fair for all competitors.

 

It has been normal practice over recent Cups for the design rule to be seen by all potential competitors well in advance of the event.

 

may be their legal team is not so confidant after the court presentations especially the bit about does it matter whether it is really a sailing club...

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For NYSC, identifying yourself as a 'Yacht Club' on the challenge document header, may be all that is needed?

 

It may look like a duck, walk li

e a duck, quack like a duck, sail like a rubber duck, but pin a label 'Yacht Club' on it, and it aint a 'duck' no longer?

 

Is SimonN a legally uneducated genius?

 

Any MENSA types on board, who can help?

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Anything to get the AC getting back on schedule is a good thing . As for SimonN being right , is something even the servers of SA could not handle OVERLOAD , OVERLOAD , OVERLOAD , OVERLOAD :ph34r::lol:

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Personally, I couldn't care less who is right or wrong, so long as there is a decent settlement that gets them racing in the new boats. Bring it on!

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Why don't they just show them, what they've got on the design rule and get the fuck on with it. I mean, haven't they already disclosed some of it during the meetings with the already accepted challengers?

Sound to me like there are no more excuses to fuck this up anymore.

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One thing has just struck me (not my wife for a change!). The rule is to be announced on 31st October anyway. Prominent designers have already said that based on what they know and the challengers deciding the displacement, Alinghi do not have an advantage. So is Larry about to save the day on something that was already saved?

 

I wonder what Alinghi have given up. I bet they have agreed to the challengers and defender choosing the officials together, but they are still to be employed by ACM.

 

What other changes do people think there will be?

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......

 

I wonder what Alinghi have given up. I bet they have agreed to the challengers and defender choosing the officials together, but they are still to be employed by ACM.

 

What other changes do people think there will be?

 

I wonder if EB would make some concessions on

the degree or level of Alingi's participation in the challenger selection series.

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This is interesting, and welcomed, news. But I wouldn't say this statement was released because BMWO is concerned they would lose their court case. I think some of the Challengers have finally stated they are pissed about the delay and they want to move one. And based on the letter, released by GGYC, it seems clear that a number of "accepted" Challengers weren't to happy with the current protocol so it is entirely possible that some are putting pressure on both Uncle Larry and EB by threatening to pull out of the event.......

 

Now that I think of it I don't know what the fuck is going on. All I know is both sides calling each other out in the press is getting old and this shit needs to be resolved. COMPROMISE is the name of the game right now, and enough is fucking enough!

 

WetHog :ph34r:

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Call for America’s Cup to go ahead in Valencia in 2009

This certainly sounds encouraging!

 

[source: Golden Gate Yacht Club] The Golden Gate Yacht Club will agree to comprehensive new compromises to get the America’s Cup back on track for Valencia in 2009

This part extremely encouraging!

 

IF the defender will disclose its rule for the boat's design.

Simon is right, but just so you don't get too big-headed and all: It's only because compromises have finally been achieved on all the other important issues! That's really the big logjam apparently released here. Yes, the Rule is apparently the final hurdle, so in a sense it may have been the biggest hurdle too and you do get partial credit. But it was never the only issue, or even close to the most important one. It just turned out to be the last one, and hate to say it - may be the most difficult one because of the unnecessarily secretive way Alinghi has gone about it so far.

 

“We are looking forward to putting this dispute about the rules behind us and racing for the America’s Cup in 2009 in Valencia as planned. That’s what we want, and that’s what all the challengers want,” Larry Ellison, syndicate head of the club’s America’s Cup team, BMW ORACLE Racing, said today.

Right On, Larry!!!

 

“But it is impossible to accept a design rule that we have never seen.”

Agreed, a process that requires you to sign on the dotted line before you know what you're signing to is completely ass-backwards.

 

The American team has told challengers it is ready to agree to wide ranging new proposals discussed over the last 24 hours

Very interesting, I hope we see them soon - But great news, regardless!

 

IF it can confirm for itself that the design rule developed by Alinghi is fair for all competitors.

No more choosing between a mast height of 43.473m versus 43.192m ? :)

 

It has been normal practice over recent Cups for the design rule to be seen by all potential competitors well in advance of the event.

Given the very ambitious timeline there's always been an urgent need for this. It's way past due, so let's hope Alinghi makes a major move on this front too, quickly.

 

Overall: WooHoo! It's big forward momentum when Larry speaks so positively to the situation.

 

Hey Larry: Please get it in the fine print that your designers can paint your fancy new boats in big, bad and bold, splashy American RED, WHITE AND BLUE, BABY! Rumor is, you already have at least two stars signed to your side. :)

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BYM is reporting positive news too: New Class Rule drafted today

 

Emphasis mine:

 

America’s Cup: New Class Rule drafted today, other challengers invited to join finalisation process

Friday, 26 October 2007

 

“With the continued aim of organising the 33rd America’s Cup for 2009 in Valencia with pre-regattas in 2008, a Competitors Meeting took place this morning to continue work on the Class Rule. At the end of a constructive meeting the competitors left with a complete draft of the Class Rule and further meetings have been scheduled over the next few days in order to finalise this document and comply with the 31st October deadline for issuing the Rule. For the competitors and AC Management this is a fundamental milestone and the focus of all our attention.”

 

“As organisers of the 33rd America’s Cup, we certainly welcome any other challenger to come and join the process for the last few days of Class Rules development and for the consultations on the competition and event regulations.”

 

Michel Hodara – CEO ACM

 

Last Updated ( Friday, 26 October 2007 )

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Typical poor analysis.

 

That the rule might be the only remaining issue does not mean it was the only real issue from the start, as Simon has claimed.

 

We shall see when/if this agreement is published, but I suspect that the concessions from ACM are very significant in many areas other than the rule.

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Now that I think of it I don't know what the fuck is going on.

 

I'll translate for you Hoggie

 

Call for America’s Cup to go ahead in Valencia in 2009

 

Translation: Larry has realised that he may be about to piss away the tens of millions of dollars he has invested in Russell and the rest of the team because there is a good chance a judge in New York might realise that the word "having" is not past tense.

 

The Golden Gate Yacht Club will agree to comprehensive new compromises to get the America’s Cup back on track for Valencia in 2009 if the defender will disclose its rule for the boat's design.

 

Translation: Regardless of this, Russell and Tom have come up with another list of demands that they would like Alinghi to accept. The GGYC have agreed to compromise itself again by acting as a front so that Russell can keep his image lily-white yet again.

 

“We are looking forward to putting this dispute about the rules behind us and racing for the America’s Cup in 2009 in Valencia as planned. That’s what we want, and that’s what all the challengers want,”

 

Translation: Judging by what Dalts said to Tom outside the court in NY, and the way he said it, we accept that the challengers aren't exactly rooting for an Oracle win.

 

The American team has told challengers it is ready to agree to wide ranging new proposals discussed over the last 24 hours if it can confirm for itself that the design rule developed by Alinghi is fair for all competitors.

 

Translation: The American team has told challengers it is ready to agree to wide ranging new proposals discussed over the last 24 hours if it can confirm for itself that the design rule developed by Alinghi is fair for BMWOracle

 

America’s Cup: New Class Rule drafted today, other challengers invited to join finalisation process

Friday, 26 October 2007

 

“With the continued aim of organising the 33rd America’s Cup for 2009 in Valencia with pre-regattas in 2008, a Competitors Meeting took place this morning to continue work on the Class Rule. At the end of a constructive meeting the competitors left with a complete draft of the Class Rule and further meetings have been scheduled over the next few days in order to finalise this document and comply with the 31st October deadline for issuing the Rule. For the competitors and AC Management this is a fundamental milestone and the focus of all our attention.”

 

“As organisers of the 33rd America’s Cup, we certainly welcome any other challenger to come and join the process for the last few days of Class Rules development and for the consultations on the competition and event regulations.”

 

Translation: The rule has been issued, and the challengers are happy. And by the way, go fuck yourself Russell, you're not getting a copy.

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You guys certainly are not lawyers are you :D ..............what has happened is that EB got his Azz kicked in the courtroom and is now in a dealmaking mood. Just as predicted he has caved on all of the big issues and look for an agreement that is nearly identical to AC32 with a box rule 90 footer as the boat.

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You guys certainly are not lawyers are you :D ..............what has happened is that EB got his Azz kicked in the courtroom and is now in a dealmaking mood. Just as predicted he has caved on all of the big issues and look for an agreement that is nearly identical to AC32 with a box rule 90 footer as the boat.

 

Translation: Larry has realised that he may be about to piss away the tens of millions of dollars he has invested in Russell and the rest of the team because there is a good chance a judge in New York might realise that the word "having" is not past tense.

 

Guys

 

Until we see what the comprimises are, we cannot even begin to speculate on who has crumbled and IMO, what will be agreed will lead us to continue to argue who has conceeded most and therefore who felt they were going to lose in court.

 

At the moment, the only thing that I believe we have any evidence of a concession on is the design. If what has been reported is correct, Alinghi will have conceeded nothing on the design as this is what they always said and the rule will have been announced on their timetable.

 

However, I would like to offer another potential scenario. As is often the way, both sides have only heard what they want to and have interpreted each others motives and actions in the way they have wanted to. Now they have been forced to talk and have found that the situation is nowhere near as bad as each other had thought. It is often said that the first step in gaining an agreement is the understanding of the other party's viewpoint and it seems to me that neither side has tried to understand the other.

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Until we see what the comprimises are, we cannot even begin to speculate on who has crumbled and IMO, what will be agreed will lead us to continue to argue who has conceeded most and therefore who felt they were going to lose in court.

 

Exactly right.

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First, thankyou to Mr. Bean for making it so I can understand what the hell is going on :P

 

Second, no matter who "won" in this it appears that a resolution is in the works. For those of us that love this event this is excellent news.

 

And C, in defense of BMWO, where would the Challengers and the Protocol be right now if BMWO/GGYC didn't take this to court. Can anyone assume that "concessions" would have been made? Considering how this "shitfight" started does anyone think EB would compromise IF the court action wasn't taken? I don't think EB would have. Probably is really pissed he actually had to compromise with BMWO and Mr. Coutts. So it doesn't matter if Oracle or Alinghi were to lose in court, because of BMWO's action the shitty protocol has been apparently amended for the better, and the Design Rule for the 90 footer has been aggreed upon by ALL involved.

 

*EDIT*

So the protocol is apprently fixed, the boat parameters are ironed out, and the Cup defense will be in 2009. Sounds like a WIN for BMWO/GGYC to me. :D

 

*EDIT* one more time :rolleyes:

Then again nothing is finalized is it? Until things are, and BMWO is officially a challenger for AC33 i don't think this shit is over yet! :o

 

WetHog :ph34r:

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where would the Challengers and the Protocol be right now if BMWO/GGYC didn't take this to court. Can anyone assume that "concessions" would have been made? Considering how this "shitfight" started does anyone think EB would compromise IF the court action wasn't taken?

 

What they always said they were asking for was two things:

 

1) A fair set of rules

 

2) A design rule where Alinghi did not have a head start

 

1) Has been negotiated but that agreement is contingent on 2) also being satisfied.

 

If Alinghi has 2) and won't give in then I guess we wait on the court decision.

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What they always said they were asking for was two things:

 

1) A fair set of rules

 

2) A design rule where Alinghi did not have a head start

 

1) Has been negotiated but that agreement is contingent on 2) also being satisfied.

 

If Alinghi has 2) and won't give in then I guess we wait on the court decision.

You make it sound so simple yet you have little evidence to back it up! Until we see a settlement, we won't know what was really going on. First, you say that they have negotiated a fair set or rules yet we haven't seen what changes have been made. Let's see how close the changes are to the list of complaints that GGYC previously posted. As for your second point, it has been know for some time that the rule is fair and that Alinghi does not have a head start. This has been stated by a few challengers who have been involved with the new rule. So, it should be an issue. However, I bet the deal isn't done until after the rule is officially announced on 31st October, because there was a commitment made to only show it to signed up challengers befor ethen.

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What a mind wank.

Haven't you got anything better to do with your time?

I suppose if you repeat it enough times it almost becomes plausible.

Only thing is, most of the challengers just want to float their boats and reel in the sponsors regardless of

the rule(s).

There are only two ego's involved here (RC & CD notwithstanding), the rest just want free racing and an easy number.

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You make it sound so simple yet you have little evidence to back it up! Until we see a settlement, we won't know what was really going on. First, you say that they have negotiated a fair set or rules yet we haven't seen what changes have been made. Let's see how close the changes are to the list of complaints that GGYC previously posted. As for your second point, it has been know for some time that the rule is fair and that Alinghi does not have a head start. This has been stated by a few challengers who have been involved with the new rule. So, it should be an issue. However, I bet the deal isn't done until after the rule is officially announced on 31st October, because there was a commitment made to only show it to signed up challengers befor ethen.

 

Apparently you missed the last bit of ACMs communiqué Simon.

 

ACM CEO Michel Hodara commented:

 

'With the continued aim of organising the 33rd America’s Cup for 2009 in Valencia with pre-regattas in 2008, a Competitors Meeting took place this morning to continue work on the Class Rule. At the end of a constructive meeting the competitors left with a complete draft of the Class Rule and further meetings have been scheduled over the next few days in order to finalise this document and comply with the 31st October deadline for issuing the Rule. For the competitors and AC Management this is a fundamental milestone and the focus of all our attention.'

'As organisers of the 33rd America’s Cup, we certainly welcome any other challenger to come and join the process for the last few days of Class Rules development and for the consultations on the competition and event regulations.'

 

FWIW Oracle was invited to participate in the process as observers a while back if I recall correctly.

:rolleyes:

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Apparently you missed the last bit of ACMs communiqué Simon.

 

ACM CEO Michel Hodara commented:

 

'With the continued aim of organising the 33rd America’s Cup for 2009 in Valencia with pre-regattas in 2008, a Competitors Meeting took place this morning to continue work on the Class Rule. At the end of a constructive meeting the competitors left with a complete draft of the Class Rule and further meetings have been scheduled over the next few days in order to finalise this document and comply with the 31st October deadline for issuing the Rule. For the competitors and AC Management this is a fundamental milestone and the focus of all our attention.'

'As organisers of the 33rd America’s Cup, we certainly welcome any other challenger to come and join the process for the last few days of Class Rules development and for the consultations on the competition and event regulations.'

 

FWIW Oracle was invited to participate in the process as observers a while back if I recall correctly.

:rolleyes:

 

Speaking of communiqués - There's a really good PJM audio interview hosted by VS here

Tom Ehman and Hamish Ross talk to PJ Montgomery on Radio NZ

 

Earlier today, PJ Montgomery, one of New Zealand's most prominent sailing journalists, interviewed Tom Ehman from BMW Oracle and Hamish Ross from Alinghi on Radio NZ.

 

It was quite a long and interesting interview, although both men repeated most the arguments their teams have publicly stated in the last couple of months. It seems the last hurdle before any deal can be made is for BMW Oracle to be convinced Alinghi doesn't have a head start on the design of the new boat.

 

Listen to the entire 22-minute interview, using the following media player:

 

Ehman: Where is the capital 'C' in 'Challengers Cup'?

 

Ross: Oracle has to sign on and accept the Alinghi Protocol, before they are allowed to comment on the Alinghi Design. Court appeals could take 2 years.

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Judging by what Dalts said to Tom outside the court in NY, and the way he said it, we accept that the challengers aren't exactly rooting for an Oracle win.

What did Dalts say to Tom outside the courtroom?

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*EDIT*

So the protocol is apprently fixed, the boat parameters are ironed out, and the Cup defense will be in 2009. Sounds like a WIN for BMWO/GGYC to me. :D

 

*EDIT* one more time :rolleyes:

Then again nothing is finalized is it? Until things are, and BMWO is officially a challenger for AC33 i don't think this shit is over yet! :o

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

There is no win until we know when and where we're going sailing again. Then EVERYONE wins. There are more parties than just GGYC/ SNG here

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There is no win until we know when and where we're going sailing again. Then EVERYONE wins. There are more parties than just GGYC/ SNG here

 

Well IMO Oracle took their action not only for their own gain, but the Challengers gain as well. And considering that concessions have apparently been made by Alinghi, with the boat and the protocol, I consider that a benefit to Oracle/GGYC. Do you think any changes to the protocol would of been made by Alinghi if Oracle/GGYC did nothing? Considering how fast ETNZ, Shosholoza, and Origin bent over to become Challengers it didn't appear they were in a strong negotiating position. :lol:

 

What did Dalts say to Tom outside the courtroom?

 

Not sure it matters what Dalts said to Ehman. Before ETNZ signed up for AC33 I figured ETNZ would of fought this protocol like Oracle. Maybe ETNZ fought behind the scenes, and maybe they didn't, but taking the "halyard lock" crap and how quick ETNZ signed up to AC33 I don't hold ETNZ in high regard anymore. For some reason I'm more interested in what UITG opinion is then ETNZ. Crazy huh? :huh:

 

WetHog :ph34r:

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