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Hey all

Impending hard drive failure has forced me to sort out all the pictures I have floating around on my 'puter so here, finally, are the pics from the IC Nationals at Ram Island in 2007. Im only 2 years late....

There are pics here of Del, Chris Mass in String Theory (I think, I cant really tell and it was 2 years ago, so Im not sure), Doctor Karl, Bill Beaver, John Kells, Mikey Radjgnkwxyvchxtz, Hudson, Gui, and the rest of the Clark/Moore gang.

It was fantastic picture weather, breezy enough for you folks to look good and nice and bright. There are some good action shots as well as the now famous shots of Del and the donkeys...

Can people forward these around until everyone has them?

 

About the albums- I know that Facebook makes some peoples gorge rise but its a reliable free server. You do NOT need a Facebook account to see these albums, but you DO need one if you want to tag people or comment so just friend me on FB if you want tagging/commenting rights. These are also hosted on the "International Canoes" group on Facebook, founded by Christian, and anyone on FB should join it. Also it occurs to me that maybe what the class needs is some Flikr streams to host pics on. Theyre free, shareable, fast and easy to use... just an idea.

 

2007 Nationals at Ram Island part 1: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=8096...mp;id=610542754

2007 Nationals at Ram Island part 2: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=8096...mp;id=610542754

 

and, since I might as well put all of these together, here are the links for the 2008 Nationals albums. These have Sol Marini, Mike Costello, and Rockey Geyer as well as the usual suspects. This was much less photogenic weather, but oh well.

 

2008 Nationals at Ram Island part 1: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=4630...mp;id=610542754

2008 Nationals at Ram Island part 2: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=4630...mp;id=610542754

2008 Nationals at Ram Island part 3: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=4630...mp;id=610542754

2008 Nationals at Ram Island part 4: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=4631...mp;id=610542754

 

Anyway, enjoy. Id love it if people could let me know whos in which picture.

Tommy

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Thanks very much for the rapid response.

I assumed that flaired topsides were ok, as almost all the new DCs have them,

but the method of measurement which Steve clark described seemd to me to throw double on that conclusion.

I was ok with the tape around the girth of the boat, but the 2m longitudinal tape seemed a bit problematic.

 

No worries. However DC's are no longer :rolleyes: , they turned into IC's 1st Jan 2009 :P (we need the title of this thread updated, Im sure JK has the wheels in motion)

 

I have bee out of the loop for a few weeks. It is good to see that the conversation is continuing.

 

H.

 

You have my number! I have ased the powers that be that the name of the thread be changed, but no luck yet!

 

El Crapitano,

 

I would avaid an applied measurement bump in the sheer. I would interpret the rules regarding tapes & hollows from the Beam Measurement Station to apply in both vertical and horizontal. Dont build anything that you would not want to land on in the event it all goes wrong:)

 

Tommy,

 

Thanks for the post!

 

Best

 

JK

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Hey all

Impending hard drive failure has forced me to sort out all the pictures I have floating around on my 'puter so here, finally, are the pics from the IC Nationals at Ram Island in 2007. Im only 2 years late....

There are pics here of Del, Chris Mass in String Theory (I think, I cant really tell and it was 2 years ago, so Im not sure), Doctor Karl, Bill Beaver, John Kells, Mikey Radjgnkwxyvchxtz, Hudson, Gui, and the rest of the Clark/Moore gang.

It was fantastic picture weather, breezy enough for you folks to look good and nice and bright. There are some good action shots as well as the now famous shots of Del and the donkeys...

Can people forward these around until everyone has them?

 

About the albums- I know that Facebook makes some peoples gorge rise but its a reliable free server. You do NOT need a Facebook account to see these albums, but you DO need one if you want to tag people or comment so just friend me on FB if you want tagging/commenting rights. These are also hosted on the "International Canoes" group on Facebook, founded by Christian, and anyone on FB should join it. Also it occurs to me that maybe what the class needs is some Flikr streams to host pics on. Theyre free, shareable, fast and easy to use... just an idea.

 

2007 Nationals at Ram Island part 1: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=8096...mp;id=610542754

2007 Nationals at Ram Island part 2: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=8096...mp;id=610542754

 

and, since I might as well put all of these together, here are the links for the 2008 Nationals albums. These have Sol Marini, Mike Costello, and Rockey Geyer as well as the usual suspects. This was much less photogenic weather, but oh well.

 

2008 Nationals at Ram Island part 1: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=4630...mp;id=610542754

2008 Nationals at Ram Island part 2: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=4630...mp;id=610542754

2008 Nationals at Ram Island part 3: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=4630...mp;id=610542754

2008 Nationals at Ram Island part 4: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=4631...mp;id=610542754

 

Anyway, enjoy. Id love it if people could let me know whos in which picture.

Tommy

 

For 2008:

White Hull & Deck = John Kells USA-244 Mayhem

Grey Hull w/ Flames = Steve Clark USA-235 Wonk

Blue Hull & Wood Deck = Dave Clark USA-92 Alice (Manana Hull)

Yellow Hull & Yellow Deck = Will Clark USA-241 Kato (Josie Hull)

Red Hull & Grey Deck = Oliver Moore USA-240 Uncle Walter (Josie Hull)

Grey Hull & Wood Deck = Rocky Guyer USA-200 Zydeco (Nethercott)

White Hull w/ Fish = Chris Moore USA-202 Matilda (Nethercott)

Blue Hull & Blue Deck = Mike Costello USA-201 Simple Sister (Nethercott)

Red hull & Red Deck = Sol Marini USA-226 Red Shift (Nethercott)

Blue Hull w/ Dished Deck = Sam Moore USA-230 Blue Meanie (Nethercott)

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2007 Nationals at Ram Island part 1: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=8096...mp;id=610542754

2007 Nationals at Ram Island part 2: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=8096...mp;id=610542754

 

 

For the 2007 Nationals the guilty parties are:

 

White Hull & Carbon Deck = Chris Maas USA-242 String Theory

Grey Hull & Deck = Steve Clark USA-239 Josie

Grey Hull w/ Flames = Del Olsen USA-235 Wonk

Green Hull & Grey Deck = Bill Beaver USA-219 (Nethercott)

Blue Hull & Wood Deck = Dave Clark USA-92 Alice (Manana Hull)

Yellow Hull & Yellow Deck = Will Clark USA-241 Kato (Josie Hull)

British Racing Green Hull & Cream Deck = Gui USA-222 Sock Puppet

Grey Hull & Wood Deck = Hampton ? USA-200 Zydeco (Nethercott)

White Hull w/ Fish = Oliver Moore USA-202 Matilda (Nethercott)

Orange Hull & Grey Deck = "Atyipcalguy" USA-232 Orange (Nethercott)

Red hull & Red Deck = Mikey R. USA-204 Red Shift (Nethercott)

Red hull & Wood Deck = Chris Moore USA-184 Gnu Canoe (Nethercott)

Blue Hull w/ Dished Deck = Sam Moore USA-230 Blue Meanie (Nethercott)

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2008 Nationals at Ram Island part 1: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=4630...mp;id=610542754

2008 Nationals at Ram Island part 2: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=4630...mp;id=610542754

2008 Nationals at Ram Island part 3: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=4630...mp;id=610542754

2008 Nationals at Ram Island part 4: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=4631...mp;id=610542754

 

 

For 2008:

White Hull & Deck = John Kells USA-244 Mayhem

Grey Hull w/ Flames = Steve Clark USA-235 Wonk

Blue Hull & Wood Deck = Dave Clark USA-92 Alice (Manana Hull)

Yellow Hull & Yellow Deck = Will Clark USA-241 Kato (Josie Hull)

Red Hull & Grey Deck = Oliver Moore USA-240 Uncle Walter (Josie Hull)

Grey Hull & Wood Deck = Rocky Guyer USA-200 Zydeco (Nethercott)

White Hull w/ Fish = Chris Moore USA-202 Matilda (Nethercott)

Blue Hull & Blue Deck = Mike Costello USA-201 Simple Sister (Nethercott)

Red hull & Red Deck = Sol Marini USA-226 Red Shift (Nethercott)

*Blue Hull w/ Dished Deck = Sam Moore USA-230 Blue Meanie (Nethercott)

 

*Sam Moore is sailing Gnu Canoe USA184 with USA-230 Sails

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Do'h... yes... NOW I get the bit about great circle routes for the tight tape, and the tape crossing the internal radius of the flare at a funny angle to give a hollow.

But of course the tape won't quite be 'fore and aft', but i guess the intention is to have each end at the same distance laterally from the centreline.

My boat may have a small hollow in the line for the last few inches in the crease of the flare - caused by having a tapered chine pintail instead of a more parallel chine/Veed transom. - oh the unintended consequences of rules.

 

The TT 1.2 is nearly done, primer paint on the hull.

 

post-2679-1234115079_thumb.jpg

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The reformed Tin Teardrop 1.2 is looking good. I think that now we have the word from Steve about flairs, that is they are allowed,

the meaning of the wording 'fore and aft' is less critical. Glad that you see the point I was making.

It didn't seem trivial to me at the time and I felt it needed to be cleared up. So thanks to both you and Steve.

Do'h... yes... NOW I get the bit about great circle routes for the tight tape, and the tape crossing the internal radius of the flare at a funny angle to give a hollow.

But of course the tape won't quite be 'fore and aft', but i guess the intention is to have each end at the same distance laterally from the centreline.

My boat may have a small hollow in the line for the last few inches in the crease of the flare - caused by having a tapered chine pintail instead of a more parallel chine/Veed transom. - oh the unintended consequences of rules.

 

The TT 1.2 is nearly done, primer paint on the hull.

 

post-2679-1234115079_thumb.jpg

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I should be interested to know what weight this seat turns out. Looks to me a little overbuilt.

I shall perhaps post some ideas about seat design, and how one might maximise strength and minimise weight.

As Rob Michael has said the seat is a very highly stressed item. With the reduction of minimum weight from 9 kg

(last time I built one) to 6 kg now good mechanical design becomes more critical.

Is the top face carbon sheathed and wrapped round the edge?

 

Ian McP

IC GBR 253

 

The top face is 4mm ply with 2 oz Kevlar vacuum bagged to the underside with three layers of 1" carbon uni tape along each edge. There's Kevlar tape reinforcing the webs around the heel holes. I have pix but they are a bit out of focus.

 

The bottom will get two layers of 1.5 in carbon uni down the middle. The 3 edges where the plys will get some glass tape and the triangular end pieces will be bonded in. Also on the list is making certain that water entering the heel holes won't leak into adjacent cells.

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Question from an interested bystander (who has no intention of building an IC). Why do you need a minium weight on the seat? As the seat is effectively movable ballast I though you'd build the boat as light as possible and put any "left over" weight in the seat.

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Weight in the seat is only important for the majority who can not build a 17ft IC hull under 30kg, which is about what is needed to make the 50kg all up target. A few pros have done it but not many amateurs. Consider that an I14 hull has min of about 80kg and compare.

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I think my wording was a bit suspect, and didn't quite say what I intended. 6 kg or thereabouts seems to be about what is being aimed for currently.

There is a max of 12 kg, same as the old rules, which If my memory serves me is to avoid the sort of ballasting you are talking of.

It's almost certainly easier to take weight out of the seat than the hull or other equipment to achieve the 50 kg limit. I think that's what Phil is saying.

Could, however, be wrong on any or all these points as I've not built one either.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Question from an interested bystander (who has no intention of building an IC). Why do you need a minium weight on the seat? As the seat is effectively movable ballast I though you'd build the boat as light as possible and put any "left over" weight in the seat.

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Weight in the seat is only important for the majority who can not build a 17ft IC hull under 30kg, which is about what is needed to make the 50kg all up target. A few pros have done it but not many amateurs. Consider that an I14 hull has min of about 80kg and compare.

 

The weight goal for the bare hull needs to be close to 21 kg.

 

My weight allocations in kg are

 

Hull 21.3

Carriage 5.5

Seat 7.5

Blades 3.9

Spars 5.8

Rigging 2.3

Margin 3.2

 

The rudder came in spot on but the daggerboard is a pound over. The seat without the external tapes and finish is 12.2 pounds, it might well offset the daggerboard's overage. If it comes in at 15 pounds and never breaks I'll be happy.

 

The allocation has 6.5% margin while this may appear to be generous, given the development stage (not much built/prototyped), an aerospace design team would likely stand down until 15% margin is had.

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The numbers look good, I expected your seat to be heavier with all that structure in it. However, as you say it should last well.

Weight in the seat is only important for the majority who can not build a 17ft IC hull under 30kg, which is about what is needed to make the 50kg all up target. A few pros have done it but not many amateurs. Consider that an I14 hull has min of about 80kg and compare.

 

The weight goal for the bare hull needs to be close to 21 kg.

 

My weight allocations in kg are

 

Hull 21.3

Carriage 5.5

Seat 7.5

Blades 3.9

Spars 5.8

Rigging 2.3

Margin 3.2

 

The rudder came in spot on but the daggerboard is a pound over. The seat without the external tapes and finish is 12.2 pounds, it might well offset the daggerboard's overage. If it comes in at 15 pounds and never breaks I'll be happy.

 

The allocation has 6.5% margin while this may appear to be generous, given the development stage (not much built/prototyped), an aerospace design team would likely stand down until 15% margin is had.

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The guts of the seat. The seat is the SHC laser cut plywood design. Somewhere in this thread someone asked what the lasering cost. I can't tell you, Bud at Precision Laser set the price at whatever I thought it was worth and wouldn't budge.

post-32376-1232768215_thumb.jpg

 

Received two CNC plank kits today from Geoff Harman to Steve Clark's design. Says he cant do a kit for a case of beer but will do them for $300.00 AUD each plus GST including the plywood.

Says he can do them with jigsaw joints on the long pieces so they can be packed for easy transport.

 

Here are the two for the flatpack - not unpacked yet as we need to clear some space to work

post-9663-1234206570_thumb.jpg

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Hi all

 

I've notice from the photos that the theory seems evenly split between vee seats (with a ridge along the c'line) and wedge seats (thinner at the front than the back). I would have thought that the wedge seats would twist down at the front edge when really loaded but make a better entry and skip when they come in contact with the water. Does this sound about right. I've decided to go with the vee seat but this isn't set in stone yet.

 

Geoff

 

AUS 33

MCR

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Hi all

 

I've notice from the photos that the theory seems evenly split between vee seats (with a ridge along the c'line) and wedge seats (thinner at the front than the back). I would have thought that the wedge seats would twist down at the front edge when really loaded but make a better entry and skip when they come in contact with the water. Does this sound about right. I've decided to go with the vee seat but this isn't set in stone yet.

 

Geoff

 

AUS 33

MCR

 

I think the shape of the seat is largely dependant on ease of build and what weight the carriage built down too whilst still being strong. Best seat/carriage (and I've had 2 wedge types, 1 Steve type and 1 TW type) I have used is the Tim Wilson one that I had on AUS018 - lines could never get tangled in it and it had a great fit and took the waves beautifully, but I reckon it would be difficult to get the carriage light enough for a new rules boat.

 

Maint thing is to ensure it is strong enough - plenty of great seats built that were almost good enough

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Hi all

 

I've notice from the photos that the theory seems evenly split between vee seats (with a ridge along the c'line) and wedge seats (thinner at the front than the back). I would have thought that the wedge seats would twist down at the front edge when really loaded but make a better entry and skip when they come in contact with the water. Does this sound about right. I've decided to go with the vee seat but this isn't set in stone yet.

 

Geoff

 

AUS 33

MCR

 

I have a wedge shaped sheet, used the same seat since around 98 I have never felt like it twisted. IMHO its a personal thing, when the seat digs in, it digs in shape doesnt really seam to mater, I went the wedge as I felt is was easier to make. Each to their own as they say :).

 

ICU2

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Hi all

 

I've notice from the photos that the theory seems evenly split between vee seats (with a ridge along the c'line) and wedge seats (thinner at the front than the back). I would have thought that the wedge seats would twist down at the front edge when really loaded but make a better entry and skip when they come in contact with the water. Does this sound about right. I've decided to go with the vee seat but this isn't set in stone yet.

 

Geoff

 

AUS 33

MCR

 

I've got some experience with both seat types. it is a bit of an apples and oranges thing though, because the wedge seat is on my old rules Nethercot, and the Vee seat is on the latest Chris Maas weapon.

the wedge used to plane for a bit, or smack down and not sink immediately, with time to scramble in. the Vee seat on the new boat seemed to plant and that was it, roll in to weather.

the mass of the old boat which feels almost twice the new one really kept things steaming along, where with the new one, if I stick my foot in the water to slow down, I damn near roll it in on top of me ! the old boat would just slow down. the new one stops. so, I guess I've wasted everyone's time. the old wedge did plane nicely on the stronger days. not sure about the Vee.

I think the Vee can be built very strong at a lighter weight than the wedge. I'm happy Chris went with the Vee. it's my job to keep it out of the water!

cheers, Kenny

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Hi all

 

I've notice from the photos that the theory seems evenly split between vee seats (with a ridge along the c'line) and wedge seats (thinner at the front than the back). I would have thought that the wedge seats would twist down at the front edge when really loaded but make a better entry and skip when they come in contact with the water. Does this sound about right. I've decided to go with the vee seat but this isn't set in stone yet.

 

Geoff

 

AUS 33

MCR

 

Geoff, Do you think you'd need to pack them differently to send one or two seat kits to NZ? Extra cost for packing? I'd get my freight guy to sort everything else.

 

Cheers

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Hi all

 

I've notice from the photos that the theory seems evenly split between vee seats (with a ridge along the c'line) and wedge seats (thinner at the front than the back). I would have thought that the wedge seats would twist down at the front edge when really loaded but make a better entry and skip when they come in contact with the water. Does this sound about right. I've decided to go with the vee seat but this isn't set in stone yet.

 

Geoff

 

AUS 33

MCR

 

Geoff, Do you think you'd need to pack them differently to send one or two seat kits to NZ? Extra cost for packing? I'd get my freight guy to sort everything else.

 

Cheers

Sorry - wrong Geoff

 

Cheers

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The absolute thickness of the seat and the amount of it left in the carriage at max extension determine the loads on the materials, aside from the flat panel slamming of the bottom into waves.

 

The narrower a V, the steeper the angle of entry in relation to the motion of the boat and the water surface. I sailed a narrow V for some years on Lust Puppet; you get one bounce. The second time it hits the water it plants and you stop. Not fast when others can hit the lull, bounce a few times, then plane along for awhile before stopping. So a wider seat is better for a symmetric V bottom.

 

I had a narrow wedge on Pita and liked it.

 

I have a wide seat on Clockwork from Steve's mold - identical to the rest but with a vertical shear web tying the upper and lower halves together at max thickness. When the edges delam it doesn't break (so far).

 

Wider seats are nice when the bow plants or you take the top off a wave because you have to move farther before you fall off. But the optimal heel hole distance for my taste is pretty narrow and it's nice if the seat is deep there so the heels can fall way down in and stay planted.

 

Structurally, a deep vertical rear seat edge, with perhaps an equal height vertical shear web some inches further forward to create a truss box type thing, then tapering up to meet the top forming a wedge on the front, seems like a good plan to optimize planing shape and structural beef. But it would be heavier than a single shear web seat, particularly in ply.

 

The CNC ply seat program is awesome. It really makes the thing accessible to just about anyone without requiring god-like composite skills.

 

Great to see so many people doing projects.

 

Karl

 

Hi all

 

I've notice from the photos that the theory seems evenly split between vee seats (with a ridge along the c'line) and wedge seats (thinner at the front than the back). I would have thought that the wedge seats would twist down at the front edge when really loaded but make a better entry and skip when they come in contact with the water. Does this sound about right. I've decided to go with the vee seat but this isn't set in stone yet.

 

Geoff

 

AUS 33

MCR

 

I've got some experience with both seat types. it is a bit of an apples and oranges thing though, because the wedge seat is on my old rules Nethercot, and the Vee seat is on the latest Chris Maas weapon.

the wedge used to plane for a bit, or smack down and not sink immediately, with time to scramble in. the Vee seat on the new boat seemed to plant and that was it, roll in to weather.

the mass of the old boat which feels almost twice the new one really kept things steaming along, where with the new one, if I stick my foot in the water to slow down, I damn near roll it in on top of me ! the old boat would just slow down. the new one stops. so, I guess I've wasted everyone's time. the old wedge did plane nicely on the stronger days. not sure about the Vee.

I think the Vee can be built very strong at a lighter weight than the wedge. I'm happy Chris went with the Vee. it's my job to keep it out of the water!

cheers, Kenny

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The guts of the seat. The seat is the SHC laser cut plywood design. Somewhere in this thread someone asked what the lasering cost. I can't tell you, Bud at Precision Laser set the price at whatever I thought it was worth and wouldn't budge.

post-32376-1232768215_thumb.jpg

 

Received two CNC plank kits today from Geoff Harman to Steve Clark's design. Says he cant do a kit for a case of beer but will do them for $300.00 AUD each plus GST including the plywood.

Says he can do them with jigsaw joints on the long pieces so they can be packed for easy transport.

 

Here are the two for the flatpack - not unpacked yet as we need to clear some space to work

post-9663-1234206570_thumb.jpg

 

The Kit (2 kits actually) - unpacked:

post-9663-1234249719_thumb.jpg

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Weight in the seat is only important for the majority who can not build a 17ft IC hull under 30kg, which is about what is needed to make the 50kg all up target. A few pros have done it but not many amateurs. Consider that an I14 hull has min of about 80kg and compare.

 

The weight goal for the bare hull needs to be close to 21 kg.

 

My weight allocations in kg are

 

Hull 21.3

Carriage 5.5

Seat 7.5

Blades 3.9

Spars 5.8

Rigging 2.3

Margin 3.2

 

The rudder came in spot on but the daggerboard is a pound over. The seat without the external tapes and finish is 12.2 pounds, it might well offset the daggerboard's overage. If it comes in at 15 pounds and never breaks I'll be happy.

 

The allocation has 6.5% margin while this may appear to be generous, given the development stage (not much built/prototyped), an aerospace design team would likely stand down until 15% margin is had.

 

El Crapitano,

 

Your weight targets look to be spot on! They are almost identical to where I was at with Mayhem. I would expect that your rigging might be a little light and that your margin will be paint.

 

Regarding seats, I have not seen anything less than 7 kg last for any reasonable length of time, and even a 7.5 kg. seat needs to be built with care and the best materials.

 

Regarding the section of the seat, I have built and sailed both V's & Wedges. It is a trade off between maximizing the structure and ease of manufacture. V's are symetrical fore & aft allowing one tool to build both the front & rear beams. The wedge has more boyancy. I think that the upward slope of the back end ov a V seat actually sucke you down as much as the forward wedge pushes you up....

 

JK

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First off the 12.2 pound weight I gave is incorrect, it's really 13.2 and still needs taping and finishing. I spent some time leak checking it and have made it watertight. It has several tablespoons of internal water now - I need to add a drain and am leaning towards a Laser drain on one end.

 

I allocated 2.3 kilos for paint and unaccounted for epoxy in the hull number. The largest unknown in the hull is how many bulkheads to add. Right now I've penciled in a bulkhead under the mast, one at the leading edge of the daggerboard, another at the forward edge of the rudder slot and one at the headstay tang. I'm considering a second daggerboard bulkhead and another spanning halfway between the daggerboard and rudder. Ideas? I'm looking at a carbon sandwich hull with Divinycell H80, .25 in and a thin e-glass outercoat to address porosity.

 

When I made a list of the collection of rigging bits it became clear that 5 pounds was not going to cover it. I took a trip to a chandlery and picked up a small carbo block. Fortunately they are light.

 

It seems like I need to join an IC organization. It's not clear how I sign up, in fact it's not even clear what organization to join. Options seem to be the Canoe (mostly paddling) Federation, US IC, International IC and maybe some I missed. I'd like to get a sail number so I'll start with whatever group designates them.

 

I budgeted for a new suit of sails but now am thinking that starting with a used set might be a good idea. Anyone in the US have sails available that would rig similarly to a new set of Kinders?

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It seems like I need to join an IC organization. It's not clear how I sign up, in fact it's not even clear what organization to join. Options seem to be the Canoe (mostly paddling) Federation, US IC, International IC and maybe some I missed. I'd like to get a sail number so I'll start with whatever group designates them.

 

I'll make this clear on the www.intcanoe.org website, (the things you miss when you are already in the association). In the meantime, Mr Kells is your main man in the US.

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I allocated 2.3 kilos for paint and unaccounted for epoxy in the hull number. The largest unknown in the hull is how many bulkheads to add. Right now I've penciled in a bulkhead under the mast, one at the leading edge of the daggerboard, another at the forward edge of the rudder slot and one at the headstay tang. I'm considering a second daggerboard bulkhead and another spanning halfway between the daggerboard and rudder. Ideas? I'm looking at a carbon sandwich hull with Divinycell H80, .25 in and a thin e-glass outercoat to address porosity.

 

I have a V-Bulkhead from shrouds to mast which extends down to the floor, as well as a bulkhead from shroud to shroud which lines up with the front of the centre case, a strong back from behind the centre case to approx 200mm forward of the rudder case which is at the very back of the boat for a hing up arrangement, I also have a forward strong back from the mast to the forestay tie, all internal structure had holes as large as I dare cut out to save some weight but nothing different to any other boat I've seen built the forestay has additional tabbing to the hull the rest just has generous fillets when glues in place. I've used similar foam and the same laminate you describe its more what I was able to get my hands on at a good price at the time which wold do the job. So far I have had no problems with the internal gear some other little issues which dont relate to not enough bulkheads. If you dont have any strong backs then some extra bulkhead is something I would recommend then it come down personal choice I guess, I just find a strong back quicker and easier to shape than lots of bulkheads.

There are some pic's either within this thread or over at the "IC" forum at www.intcanoe.org

 

Hope that helps, happy building.

ICU2

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I need to add a drain and am leaning towards a Laser drain on one end.

 

A laser plug is the perfect thing. It's quick, it's easy, and it fits perfectly. Also, in the event that you do get some water in the seat, if your sneaky you can actually drain the seat out while on the water. I have done this when I've left my plug out on the way to the race course. Its very convenient.

 

In other news,

Nationals are going to be held at Bristol Yacht Club the weekend of July 12th. Hope to see lots of people there. In my excitement I accidentally added it to the calendar twice and cant remove the second one because we do not actually have the technology to remove events. So, just ignore the one that has the event running sunday and monday. The real one is saturday sunday. I'm going to send in the regatta application form tomorrow. Mark Rotsky has been kind enough to hold the weekend open while I get my act together.

 

In other other news,

The full 2009 racing schedule will be in the next addition of the newsletter. I'm a little behind schedule because of this pesky college business which for some reason actually requires work. Who knew? I am still looking for contributions and was hoping I could get a few write ups from some of the people doing cool winter projects. It doesn't have to be long, it doesn't have to be great. After all we're sailors first and critics second. People want to know about your boats not about how good your grammar is.

 

Anyone with a submission to the Canoesletter please email me at wvc6@cornell.edu. Submissions are awesome because it's less writing that I have to do myself. Help me out [cough] Oliver [cough].

 

Later,

 

Willy "I talk real good" Clark

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I need to add a drain and am leaning towards a Laser drain on one end.

 

A laser plug is the perfect thing. It's quick, it's easy, and it fits perfectly. Also, in the event that you do get some water in the seat, if your sneaky you can actually drain the seat out while on the water. I have done this when I've left my plug out on the way to the race course. Its very convenient.

 

In other news,

Nationals are going to be held at Bristol Yacht Club the weekend of July 12th. Hope to see lots of people there. In my excitement I accidentally added it to the calendar twice and cant remove the second one because we do not actually have the technology to remove events. So, just ignore the one that has the event running sunday and monday. The real one is saturday sunday. I'm going to send in the regatta application form tomorrow. Mark Rotsky has been kind enough to hold the weekend open while I get my act together.

 

In other other news,

The full 2009 racing schedule will be in the next addition of the newsletter. I'm a little behind schedule because of this pesky college business which for some reason actually requires work. Who knew? I am still looking for contributions and was hoping I could get a few write ups from some of the people doing cool winter projects. It doesn't have to be long, it doesn't have to be great. After all we're sailors first and critics second. People want to know about your boats not about how good your grammar is.

 

Anyone with a submission to the Canoesletter please email me at wvc6@cornell.edu. Submissions are awesome because it's less writing that I have to do myself. Help me out [cough] Oliver [cough].

 

Later,

 

Willy "I talk real good" Clark

Oliver may have some thoughts culled from his testing sessions last fall at Richmond, in Chris' boats ?

Kenny

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I was interested to read of Steve Clark's experiment to build a seat to the V-design without any reinforcement.(IC forum) People have been building box section seats for over 50 years and it is probably only in the last 25 years that anyone has used fibre reinforcement, thus one assumes that it cannot be that difficult, but it was in the days that seats had to be 9Kg, so a lot of timber could go into it. Now ,however, weight is an issue as it can make achieving the new 50 Kg all up boat weight easier. I am not in a position to build seats, but have done some calculations. The stresses in a seat are close to the strength of the timber used in the seat. I cannot say exactly how close as I don't have data of modern plywoods. It surprises me that we don't have more breakages than we do.

 

The strength and stiffness of a seat depends on its I-value (second moment of area) just as the stiffness of the mast depends on its I-value. I have calculated the second moment of area for both the V-seat of Steve Clark and the British wedge, without any reinforcement. For these calculations I have made some approximations and simplifications.

 

Firstly I assumed that the seat was made from materials all of which have the same Modulus. And that where plywood was used it was 4 mm thick and for the frames in the wedge ¾ inch timber is used. For the V seat I assumed a width of 450 mm, whereas a width of 400 mm was used for the wedge. I further assumed that there were no footholes cut in the box. This will be discussed later, together with the way the seat is restrained in the carriage.

 

For the V seat an I value of 4.6 MN/ (mm) 4th with a neutral axis at about 30 mm below the top surface was found. For the wedge I got 4.9MN/(mm)4th with the neutral axis at the half thickness of the seat. These are used to calculate the maximum bending stress in the seat which occurs just at the exit point from the seat carriage. This gives a stress of about 10 N/mm. As data on plywood doesn't seem to be available, so strength of timbers was used to suggested breaking stresses of about 40 N/mm. At first sight this would seem satisfactory, but the footholes could increase the actual stress in the seat by at least three (for circular holes). For squarer holes the stress concentrations will be higher. From this we might expect actual stresses perhaps 30 N/mm or more. Two other factors should be mentioned. Firstly the strength for ply will be lower than for the timber it's made, so 40 N/mm might be on the high side. Again I'm not sure by how much but even a small reduction starts to make the seats look unsuitable for the job. There is a second factor which will also reduce the ability to carry load and that is how the seat is designed by way of the restraining points. The above analysis assumed that the seat was restrained across its entire width uniformly. For both the wedge and the V seat this is far from true. For the wedge the restraining loads are applied at points which are strong because of the seat depth at that point, but the restraining forces are applied to the V seat which it has only a small depth and so little strength from the geometry, although the seat bottom should support the load.

 

If you want a strong seat, I would recommend the following.

 

Make it as deep as you feel you reasonably can. Have the seat restraints where the seat is deepest. Make the outermost footholes as circular and small as you can, the rest are less important. Try not to have the foothole directly above the edge of the seat carriage. Put any reinforcement on the top and bottom surfaces where the stresses are highest. The top of the seat is in tension and the bottom in compression so lengthwise internal framing should be continuous at the top , and any slots for interlocking should be at the bottom. Hope some of this is useful.

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I need to add a drain and am leaning towards a Laser drain on one end.

 

A laser plug is the perfect thing. It's quick, it's easy, and it fits perfectly. Also, in the event that you do get some water in the seat, if your sneaky you can actually drain the seat out while on the water. I have done this when I've left my plug out on the way to the race course. Its very convenient.

 

In other news,

Nationals are going to be held at Bristol Yacht Club the weekend of July 12th. Hope to see lots of people there. In my excitement I accidentally added it to the calendar twice and cant remove the second one because we do not actually have the technology to remove events. So, just ignore the one that has the event running sunday and monday. The real one is saturday sunday. I'm going to send in the regatta application form tomorrow. Mark Rotsky has been kind enough to hold the weekend open while I get my act together.

 

In other other news,

The full 2009 racing schedule will be in the next addition of the newsletter. I'm a little behind schedule because of this pesky college business which for some reason actually requires work. Who knew? I am still looking for contributions and was hoping I could get a few write ups from some of the people doing cool winter projects. It doesn't have to be long, it doesn't have to be great. After all we're sailors first and critics second. People want to know about your boats not about how good your grammar is.

 

Anyone with a submission to the Canoesletter please email me at wvc6@cornell.edu. Submissions are awesome because it's less writing that I have to do myself. Help me out [cough] Oliver [cough].

 

Later,

 

Willy "I talk real good" Clark

 

Out of interest...is there going to be a separate division for Nethercotts or are we all going to be together? I honestly don't mind racing with the IC's, in fact I enjoy watching them blow by, but I'm interested to see how many people will be showing up in Nethercotts as opposed to IC's and whether there will be enough to support a separate division. This also might be a good time to get new people out onto canoes and get the older boats sailing. Hopefully with a bunch of people sailing their new IC's there will be a large fleet of interested sailors in Nethercotts. Thanks.

 

TC

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I was interested to read of Steve Clark's experiment to build a seat to the V-design without any reinforcement.(IC forum) People have been building box section seats for over 50 years and it is probably only in the last 25 years that anyone has used fibre reinforcement, thus one assumes that it cannot be that difficult, but it was in the days that seats had to be 9Kg, so a lot of timber could go into it. Now ,however, weight is an issue as it can make achieving the new 50 Kg all up boat weight easier. I am not in a position to build seats, but have done some calculations. The stresses in a seat are close to the strength of the timber used in the seat. I cannot say exactly how close as I don't have data of modern plywoods. It surprises me that we don't have more breakages than we do.

 

The strength and stiffness of a seat depends on its I-value (second moment of area) just as the stiffness of the mast depends on its I-value. I have calculated the second moment of area for both the V-seat of Steve Clark and the British wedge, without any reinforcement. For these calculations I have made some approximations and simplifications.

 

Firstly I assumed that the seat was made from materials all of which have the same Modulus. And that where plywood was used it was 4 mm thick and for the frames in the wedge ¾ inch timber is used. For the V seat I assumed a width of 450 mm, whereas a width of 400 mm was used for the wedge. I further assumed that there were no footholes cut in the box. This will be discussed later, together with the way the seat is restrained in the carriage.

 

For the V seat an I value of 4.6 MN/ (mm) 4th with a neutral axis at about 30 mm below the top surface was found. For the wedge I got 4.9MN/(mm)4th with the neutral axis at the half thickness of the seat. These are used to calculate the maximum bending stress in the seat which occurs just at the exit point from the seat carriage. This gives a stress of about 10 N/mm. As data on plywood doesn't seem to be available, so strength of timbers was used to suggested breaking stresses of about 40 N/mm. At first sight this would seem satisfactory, but the footholes could increase the actual stress in the seat by at least three (for circular holes). For squarer holes the stress concentrations will be higher. From this we might expect actual stresses perhaps 30 N/mm or more. Two other factors should be mentioned. Firstly the strength for ply will be lower than for the timber it's made, so 40 N/mm might be on the high side. Again I'm not sure by how much but even a small reduction starts to make the seats look unsuitable for the job. There is a second factor which will also reduce the ability to carry load and that is how the seat is designed by way of the restraining points. The above analysis assumed that the seat was restrained across its entire width uniformly. For both the wedge and the V seat this is far from true. For the wedge the restraining loads are applied at points which are strong because of the seat depth at that point, but the restraining forces are applied to the V seat which it has only a small depth and so little strength from the geometry, although the seat bottom should support the load.

 

If you want a strong seat, I would recommend the following.

 

Make it as deep as you feel you reasonably can. Have the seat restraints where the seat is deepest. Make the outermost footholes as circular and small as you can, the rest are less important. Try not to have the foothole directly above the edge of the seat carriage. Put any reinforcement on the top and bottom surfaces where the stresses are highest. The top of the seat is in tension and the bottom in compression so lengthwise internal framing should be continuous at the top , and any slots for interlocking should be at the bottom. Hope some of this is useful.

 

Having just (glued the WRC for the bull noses on last night) built a slightly modified Steve Clark Seat (whichs should see it watertight......) I am very interested to know if it is strong enough - and really looking forward to testing it in my new boat.

Have you also taken into account the timber noses on the SC seat that slide in the carriage? I'm pretty sure that these must add some significant stiffness. Also, on the wedge seats I've had there has often been spruce and other wooods in there to add strength without too much weight.

Untried and untested as it is, I am very happy with the modified Steve Clark seat so far it feels just as solid as other seats I've had, was relatively simple to assemble and still feels light.

 

Cheers

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The V seat with reinforcement as described by El Capitano or by Steve elsewhere will, in my opinion, by bullitproof. No guarantees of course.

In my calculations I make some approximations which made things look less favourable and of course there was no reinforcement.

Both V and wedges seem about the same strength so theres not much to choose at the moment. Some of the Swedish seats of

the 1980s looked very interesting from the point of view of achieving maximum strength at minimum weight. Hope to post some photos soon.

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The modulus of Okume is 1,140,000 psi along the grain. Across the grain the modulus is roughly 1/4 of that. Plywood laminations that are balanced in ply thickness will have a net modulus of 712,000 psi. That compares to Douglas fir at 1,600,000 psi or spruce at 1,200,000 psi. Bullnoses of timber contribute significantly to the moment of inertia because all the grain is aligned with the load. Plywood does have virtues. It doesn't split or splinter like timber and the defect sizes are small and localized to a single ply and it has a toughness that allows it to absorb impacts.

 

The SHC seat is 4 mm ply except for the bottom two pieces which are 3 mm. Given the carbon reinforcements, which are very much stiffer than the plywood structure, the loads are going to be at the three edges where the carbon is. The seat is 83 inches wide and will have 19.2 inches of overlap on the carriage at full extension. The footwells do not overlap the carriage at full extension. The slots in the triangles close up when weight is applied. The slots in the longitudinals open up. Given the carbon reinforcement this is good design - the triangle stiffness and strength is optimized to distribute loads out to the reinforcements. If the seat was built with no reinforcement the slots might want to be reversed.

 

I'm not going to do it because I'm otherwise busy, but a 94 inch long seat would have 2/3 of the bending moment and could be possibly be built in all 3 mm ply. Then it would be both stronger and lighter. On the minus side it would require more material and when fully extended it would contribute less righting moment.

 

Back to the real world - I drilled the hole for the Laser plug. I used a sharp bit and the hole looked really good. That is until later on when I looked at a picture of an IC sailing and saw hiking straps. Doh. I could have put the drain where the hiking strap isn't going to go. :o

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Back to the real world - I drilled the hole for the Laser plug. I used a sharp bit and the hole looked really good. That is until later on when I looked at a picture of an IC sailing and saw hiking straps. Doh. I could have put the drain where the hiking strap isn't going to go. :o

 

You could always go for a double strap set-up as opposed to a single to bypass attaching the strap to the centerline of the carriage. Any more pictures of how things are coming?

 

TC

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The slots in the triangles close up when weight is applied.

 

I'm not going to do it because I'm otherwise busy, but a 94 inch long seat would have 2/3 of the bending moment and could be possibly be built in all 3 mm ply. Then it would be both stronger and lighter. On the minus side it would require more material and when fully extended it would contribute less righting moment.

Thanks for the post.

A couple of points.

There seems to be some confusion between Bending moments and reactions.

Increasing the length of the seat will NOT affect the bending moment which is entirely determined by the weight of the sailor when hiking from the end of the seat,

it is a maximum just where the seat enters/exits the carriage and is given by the distance between this point and the centre of gravity of the sailor.

If you built a longer seat and had the restraint at the inboard end of the seat rather than at the centreline of the boat, then the reaction force

on the seat due to the restraint would indeed be reduced by about 2/3. This would also reduce the reaction forces on the seat at the carriage exit.

At the central restraint the reaction forces are downward, so do tend to close the slots in the triangular webs. This part of the seat is, however, not the part

which is carrying much stress. At the carriage exit the reaction forces are upward, they have the effect of putting the lower face of the seat under tension,

so opening the slots in the trianguler webs. This section of the seat also carries the high stresses due to bending.

With the amount of carbon which you put in your seat the plywood is almost irrelevant, except it hold the carbon in position.

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Should have said Maximum bending moment is the weight of the sailor times the distance between his centre of gravity and the point where the seat exits the carriage.

( half my sentence went missing)

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It shouldn't make any difference which way the slots run because they are captured by the plywood top and bottom and can only open and close to the extent that 4mm of plywood stretches or compresses.

post-738-1235087674_thumb.jpg

This is the seat test we just did on GER 78 . There is 412 pounds in the basket, which covers my ass and about 1/2 G of acceleration.

SHC

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While I'm planning for a carbon sandwich hull and decks, the spine/strongback may be plywood. In a carbon hull the spine serves to keep the centerlines of the hull and dance floor/deck from distorting towards each other. The torque translating from the carriage to the centerboard and shrouds puts a torsion load in the hull that can put the spine into compression. Compression gets my attention. A coworker who, unlike me, has built many boats, keeps telling me that hulls fail in compression. I had an idea and built a test piece. I took two pieces of 1.5 mm ply and bonded them together in this fixture. I did some informal testing and it resists buckling better than 4 mm ply. It's easy to work with too, pushes through a saw easily.

post-32376-1235089139_thumb.jpg

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post-32376-1235087646_thumb.jpg

 

Looking good, i notice that you haven't put your bullnoeses on yet? Mine are on and should be routering tonight, and then carboning the seams tomorrow.

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Looking good, noticed you having put your wood on for the bullnoses yet? I've put mine on but haven't carbones the seams yet (tonights job if I can get to the shops and pick up a router).

 

My seat is bullnoseless. With the carbon the bullnoses become redundant.

 

The curved ply in the pix above is for the dance floor mold, not the actual dance floor.

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Looking good, noticed you having put your wood on for the bullnoses yet? I've put mine on but haven't carbones the seams yet (tonights job if I can get to the shops and pick up a router).

 

My seat is bullnoseless. With the carbon the bullnoses become redundant.

 

The curved ply in the pix above is for the dance floor mold, not the actual dance floor.

 

I'm no expert on this but isn't the bullnose for allowing the carriage rails to be more curved and stronger?

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Looking good, noticed you having put your wood on for the bullnoses yet? I've put mine on but haven't carbones the seams yet (tonights job if I can get to the shops and pick up a router).

 

My seat is bullnoseless. With the carbon the bullnoses become redundant.

 

The curved ply in the pix above is for the dance floor mold, not the actual dance floor.

 

You don't want a sharp leading edge on that thing. If your leg or other body part goes into the water at speed, you don't want to be swept back against a hard corner. Also, if you clip anyone or anything else at speed with the seat, it is safer to have a larger radius there. For instance, rescuing someone from the water in a blow is always a bit dicey when you pull up to leeward of them with the seat in the water and the leading edge at about their neck/eye/head level.

 

KW

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It shouldn't make any difference which way the slots run because they are captured by the plywood top and bottom and can only open and close to the extent that 4mm of plywood stretches or compresses.

post-738-1235087674_thumb.jpg

This is the seat test we just did on GER 78 . There is 412 pounds in the basket, which covers my ass and about 1/2 G of acceleration.

SHC

I entirely agree it shouldn't matter, but that is different to saying it cannot matter. In the case of an unreinforced seat which was what I was looking at, the webs could be expected

to carry about 20 percent of the tensile load, but the stresses are lower than in the top surface, so failure is not likely except from building flaws.

When I did the analysis for the unreinforced seat I was going by the photos posted on the thread but they may be deceptive. If not all the timber was shown

in the photos then I may have missed something out of the calculation for the I value, which would have the consequence that I underestimated the strength.

El Crapitano refered to bullnoses, which I did not see in the photos, so were not included in the calculation.

With CF reinforcement, as you commented on sometime earlier,

the reinforcement has to be sufficient so that it cannot fail. Thus because of the disparity in strength of Carbon and ply, the easiest way is to be design the seat assuming

that the ply is irrelevant for load carrying. With his reinforcement I would estimate

that his seat would be capable of supporting well over a thousand pounds, maybe 1500. I don't see the neccessity to try. Its well overengineered,

with all that Carbon, the ply is in effect just keeping the carbon in the correct position and carrying only small compression and tensile laods.

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The pix might not show it, but the seat has a half inch tall blunt edge front and back, not a sharp edge. The top and bottom corners of the blunt edges are slightly rounded.

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Hi all, slightly off the current direction of topic.

 

The seat has a volume/ bouyancy of approx 90kg's. If you build it from solid foam does it count as the 75kg's foam/ floatation that you need in the hull?

 

Thanks

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Hi all, slightly off the current direction of topic.

 

The seat has a volume/ bouyancy of approx 90kg's. If you build it from solid foam does it count as the 75kg's foam/ floatation that you need in the hull?

 

Thanks

 

It should not because when the seat carriage blows up the whole program is no longer attached to the hull.

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After breaking a homebuilt router fixture I made a ghetto router table and cut the curved parts for my dance floor.

post-32376-1235087918_thumb.jpg

 

El Crappy for us router-ignorant types can you describe the jig? I have to cut some curves with varying radii in the same curve and was wondering how this is typically done, though yours may be constant radius I can't tell from the photo.

 

Thanks,

ATG

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Hi all, slightly off the current direction of topic.

 

The seat has a volume/ bouyancy of approx 90kg's. If you build it from solid foam does it count as the 75kg's foam/ floatation that you need in the hull?

 

Thanks

 

Im afraid it doesn't.

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After breaking a homebuilt router fixture I made a ghetto router table and cut the curved parts for my dance floor.

post-32376-1235087918_thumb.jpg

 

This is it. Blow up the picture to 100% and look in the upper right corner. The router bit (yellow) is there and you can see some Philips head screws and a circular cutout. The router is bolted to a 3/8's piece of ply and screwed the ply to the underside of the big piece of ply that rests on sawhorses. I measured from the edge of the router bit and drilled a 1/2 in dia hole at the prescribed radius. In the pix you can see some of these holes. There's a corresponding 1/2 in hole in the end product plywood. In goes a 1/2 in bolt, on goes the router and the radius is cut in no time. You want a good router bit. Mine is 1/2 in diameter with carbide cutters. Before my first cut I jigsawed the arc so the router only had 1/8 in to cut. It wasn't necessary and took time.

 

My radii are constant. For multiple radii you will need to make another set of holes in the big piece of ply and the end product ply and make another cut. If you have a constantly varying radii you have to make a router template - rough cut 1/8 stock with a jigsaw, sand it to size and use it as a template. Or you could get it laser cut which would be lots easier.

 

Routing makes lots of chips and dusts up the air. Do it outside if you can or have your mate (I'm learning Australian) hold a vacuum cleaner near the cutting.

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The pix might not show it, but the seat has a half inch tall blunt edge front and back, not a sharp edge. The top and bottom corners of the blunt edges are slightly rounded.

 

 

El Crapitano,

 

Atypicalguy is giving you great advice!

 

PLEASE put some radius on that weapon. Something on the order of 2" diameter would be the minimum! When reaching at 15+knots (not that hard to imagine) a wave knocking your foot back could do some serious damage. I'm thinking broken bones!

 

So.... Before you build your seat carriage please know that this is worth considering.

 

I think that the larger separation will add a little structural integrity to the program as an added bonus. I think that having the bearing surface perpendicular (horizontal) to the load (vertical) is also a good idea. Having the bearing surfaces on the angled surfaces of the wedge could pinch and deform the seat at the point of maximum load, and that could cause problems. The bullnose could be built up with H80 foam, and a couple of layers of carbon if you are concerned about weight.

 

Knife like edges aside, the seat looks great! It is very nicely put together. I'm looking forward to seeing the hull as it develops

 

Best

 

John K

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post-16686-1235264081_thumb.jpg

 

Peter's boat goes into the oven for a little post cure

 

Chris, and this is on a boat building level only, I am beginning to dislike you - everytime i do something that I am happy with, you post another pic....

 

 

Nah, it's cool and Peters boat looks good - forget the post cure oven, just send them over to my shed if you want a 50-60 degree bake (especially a couple of weeks ago)

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forget the post cure oven, just send them over to my shed if you want a 50-60 degree bake (especially a couple of weeks ago)

Wish we had some of that over here... I gave up trying to post cure the mast mods I've been doing, couldn't get heat without doing insane things to my parents electricity bill and taking too many risks on dodgy lashups... Went to test out the revised spar today and got two hours of 5 knots wind and half an hour of 25knots wth gusts everywhere and direction. Strange weather in Pomland... And my oath, the water is cold.

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sorry guys, but from an outsider who dosnt want to see this off the front page,

 

BUMP.

 

I realy wish I had the ability to do that.

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sorry guys, but from an outsider who dosnt want to see this off the front page,

 

BUMP.

 

I realy wish I had the ability to do that.

 

Just do it - PM me if you want to arrange a test sail.

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For one thing, I realy doubt I have the ability to even sail the thing (I once spent an hout trying to get on a moth pre foils, before I walked the thing home). although, it might be fun trying

 

For 2nd, you guys do such an amasing job building these things, I dont think mear mortals like me can hope to compare wih the quality of boat you guys are turning out

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For one thing, I realy doubt I have the ability to even sail the thing (I once spent an hout trying to get on a moth pre foils, before I walked the thing home). although, it might be fun trying

 

For 2nd, you guys do such an amasing job building these things, I dont think mear mortals like me can hope to compare wih the quality of boat you guys are turning out

For 1st they're not *that* hard to sail until it tops 20 knots. There's an open invite on mine at my club and no-one has ever failed to be able to sail it around and back...

 

For 2nd, although you're right, these guys do seem to set the bar unbelievably high when it comes to build quality, there are also folks like me, who's very much an approximate boatbuilder (couple more layers of carbon unis and it will probably stay on all right). People may not admire my boat the way they do some of the others, but I haven't had anyone actually sneer at it either: they are a nice crowd...

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For one thing, I realy doubt I have the ability to even sail the thing (I once spent an hout trying to get on a moth pre foils, before I walked the thing home). although, it might be fun trying

 

For 2nd, you guys do such an amasing job building these things, I dont think mear mortals like me can hope to compare wih the quality of boat you guys are turning out

 

Funny you mention the pre-foils moth, my brother had a similar experience with my old Wombat (80's fat skiff), yet settled into the IC remarkably well, but you'll never know if you don't give it a shot (never know, you might just love it).

 

There are a few IC sailors in Queensland (including Geoff who designed and is pre-fabricating a lot of my new boat) who would be more than happy to let you try an IC

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For one thing, I realy doubt I have the ability to even sail the thing (I once spent an hout trying to get on a moth pre foils, before I walked the thing home). although, it might be fun trying

 

For 2nd, you guys do such an amasing job building these things, I dont think mear mortals like me can hope to compare wih the quality of boat you guys are turning out

 

Don't worry about ability, it is more about attitude and not loosing sight of your sense of humor. Apart from 6 months sailing in highschool, I am learning to sail. On an IC.

 

I have the grace, co-ordination and stomping ability of a drunk elephant but even I can punt my canoe around in up to 15 kts and it is an absolute hoot being out on the end of the plank.

 

See if you can arrange a test sail before you write off being able to sail a canoe. You may surprise yourself. There are a couple of canoe's for sale on the east coast and a couple in Adelaide. Hell, if you are able, come along to the nationals this year and chat to a bunch of canoe sailors all together.

 

It is quite doable to build your own canoe if that takes your fancy. I am building with IC_AUS and I have zero experience with wood working, resin and carbon. We are building the prototype 'Flatpack' IC's to prove that pretty much anybody can build one.

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Hmm, my intrest has been rased. I have met Geoff and like the look of his boat.

 

Where / When are the nationals this year?

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Hmm, my intrest has been rased. I have met Geoff and like the look of his boat.

 

Where / When are the nationals this year?

 

Adelaide, Easter - do you need a place to crash?

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Hmm, im looking for somthing to do at easter

 

PM Pete or myself and we should be able to sort something out for you for Easter once you're certain you're keen to come over. Should be able to slot you into a nethercott, which will be a good experience and give you a feel for the class.

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Here is the footage of the US Nationals at Ram Island, 2008. Ze evil nazi music copyright people on Youtube are giving me problems so these will be hosted on FB until I find a way to defeat the stupid music detection software. Im pretty pleased with how it came out and I will be uploading a higher quality vid thru the IT office's extra fancy connection next time I bring my computer up to campus. Overall the vids came together pretty well. There are only 2 little goofs, first is on the Day 1 video where I misspelled Kaito, oops, and then as I was changing it for Day 2 the titles migrated to the left, so the titles that identify Willy in the Day 2 vid are in the wrong places (but spelled right). But its the bright yellow boat, its not that hard to pick out. I was kind of anal about labeling the boats cause I wanted it to be understandable to people who arent quite as practiced at telling members of the family apart :rolleyes:. I will fix the goofs when I upload the HQ vid. Also please keep in mind that these were taken from a very small inflatable with a handheld camera and so they are REALLY wobbly. I do not recommend watching them too many times or you are liable to get seasick at your desk, lol.

 

Day 1 (Music: Icky Thump, The White Stripes)

http://www.facebook.com/v/66324497754

 

Day 2 (Music: Miserlou, Dick Dale; Boom Boom Mancini, Warren Zevon)

http://www.facebook.com/v/66378467754

(The day 2 vid also includes final and conclusive proof that old age and treachery will triumph over youth and talent. Look at about the 8 minute mark. It is hilarious)

 

Like last time, you do not need a facebook account to see the video.

 

Enjoy guys!

Tommy

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Nice job with the videos. Those things are seriously cool boats.

 

And Steve, that's a rather dirty trick! But, I guess you do what's required to stay ahead of the kids :)

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And Steve, that's a rather dirty trick! But, I guess you do what's required to stay ahead of the kids :)

 

In all fairness I think he really thought Will was over early. But it makes a much better story this way, haha.

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And Steve, that's a rather dirty trick! But, I guess you do what's required to stay ahead of the kids :)

 

In all fairness I think he really thought Will was over early. But it makes a much better story this way, haha.

 

Hmm, well, I guess putting the truth out there is only fair to Steve, but the original was definitely the better story! Now for the real question - who crossed the finish line first?

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And Steve, that's a rather dirty trick! But, I guess you do what's required to stay ahead of the kids :)

 

In all fairness I think he really thought Will was over early. But it makes a much better story this way, haha.

 

Hmm, well, I guess putting the truth out there is only fair to Steve, but the original was definitely the better story! Now for the real question - who crossed the finish line first?

 

Ah, well that would be John Kells, or possibly Dad. I think John won most of those races, altho Oliver was close on his heels until he had to go to the hospital. I dont think Will was at the front in any of those races on Day 2.

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Nearly done, hope to sail this weekend.

post-2679-1236206472_thumb.jpg

The sail still needs a bit of surgery to remove the luff sleeve and add a bolt-rope, trim the foot. Hopefully it will be only about 0.4 sq m down on size.

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Nearly done, hope to sail this weekend.

post-2679-1236206472_thumb.jpg

The sail still needs a bit of surgery to remove the luff sleeve and add a bolt-rope, trim the foot. Hopefully it will be only about 0.4 sq m down on size.

 

Cool, can't wait to hear how she goes on the water

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And Steve, that's a rather dirty trick! But, I guess you do what's required to stay ahead of the kids :)

 

In all fairness I think he really thought Will was over early. But it makes a much better story this way, haha.

 

False! utterly false, he sabotaged me and I had the entire fleet port tacked by five boat lengths.

 

My revenge will be sweet

 

Willy

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And Steve, that's a rather dirty trick! But, I guess you do what's required to stay ahead of the kids :)

 

In all fairness I think he really thought Will was over early. But it makes a much better story this way, haha.

 

False! utterly false, he sabotaged me and I had the entire fleet port tacked by five boat lengths.

 

My revenge will be sweet

 

Willy

 

At least you didn't go back for no reason at a Worlds and it cost you a medal, and 3 years of "we could have challenged for the New York Cup if only....."

 

BTW Great job Tommy.

 

Andy,

Is that a mainsheet bridel towards the back of the dance floor I spy? (hard to tell in the photo) interesting idea if it is.

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Nearly done, hope to sail this weekend.

post-2679-1236206472_thumb.jpg

The sail still needs a bit of surgery to remove the luff sleeve and add a bolt-rope, trim the foot. Hopefully it will be only about 0.4 sq m down on size.

 

Cool, can't wait to hear how she goes on the water

 

 

Wow andy, that rig's a bloody long way aft... can't help but think there could be some helm balance fun and games to contend with :S

 

Best of luck to you, I'm sure that if you managed to get some of your early moths to work you'll get the teardrop working just fine too.

 

Nice paintjob too, by the way.

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Wow andy, that rig's a bloody long way aft... can't help but think there could be some helm balance fun and games to contend with :S

 

Best of luck to you, I'm sure that if you managed to get some of your early moths to work you'll get the teardrop working just fine too.

 

Nice paintjob too, by the way.

 

The mast is in the 'normal' position for 2-sail boats, it just looks a long way back with no jib and a bit of rake, ( and the long boom ).

This means that there is the chance of adding a jib later, if it still don't work.

Helm balance should be fine, since the board is also moved back ( the old case has been left in if the jib gets fitted ).

The old boat had too much directional stablility, and didn't like turning, the new version has everything more close around the middle of the boat -crew weight, seat, sail, board, centre of buoyancy, so it will turn better - oh and there's more rocker in the back too.

 

Paint was what was left in several tins, shame its the catayst that goes off, leaving lots of colour base.

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Andy,

Is that a mainsheet bridel towards the back of the dance floor I spy? (hard to tell in the photo) interesting idea if it is.

 

Yes indeed! a 29er style mainsheet with transom bridle, and twin tiller extensions, with a swift solo style stick/bungee arrangement on the tiller to flip the new extension into my hand when tacking ( i hope ).

 

The bridle disconnects the carriage from the sheet loads, so the seat will shift aft more easily when going from a beat to a reach.

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post-16686-1236360167_thumb.jpg

 

Peter's boat gets some paint.

 

That boat is going to get MOMA in NYC to send in a SWAT team to steal it so it never gets sailed.

 

One word. Wow.

 

--

Bill

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post-16686-1236360167_thumb.jpg

 

Peter's boat gets some paint.

 

 

Sick, sick, sick..........what primer/paint are you using?

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Yes indeed! a 29er style mainsheet with transom bridle, and twin tiller extensions, with a swift solo style stick/bungee arrangement on the tiller to flip the new extension into my hand when tacking ( i hope ).

 

The bridle disconnects the carriage from the sheet loads, so the seat will shift aft more easily when going from a beat to a reach.

GOOD LUCK!

SHC

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Andy:

Looking good. Couple questions:

Are those camber inducers connecting the battens to the mast?

Does the mast rotate?

Thanks!

 

Nearly done, hope to sail this weekend.

 

They are/were camber inducers, but they are now removed, and a boltrope added.

 

The rules now say that the sail must be able to be lowered or furled and in another section removed from the mast whilst afloat etc etc, making the sleeve luff camber induced rig difficult to comply.

 

The boom is attached to the mast with jaws like a moth, so the mast rotates with the boom.

I tried over--rotation on moth rig some years ago, but it didn't make a noticeable difference.

 

Unfortunately the forecast is 15kts sat and 21kts sunday, at least that gives me time to sort the strings and everything else out for next weekend.

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post-16686-1236360167_thumb.jpg

 

Peter's boat gets some paint.

 

 

Sick, sick, sick..........what primer/paint are you using?

 

 

It's Awlgrip LPU with Sterling 94-U1000 primer. I much prefer the Sterling primer to Awlgrips 545. Way easier to apply and covers much better. Expensive though.

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...twin tiller extensions, with a swift solo style stick/bungee arrangement on the tiller to flip the new extension into my hand when tacking ( i hope ).

I shall watch that with *great* interest... And I think we in the UK shall *all* have to watch out for a trailing tiller extension when crossing tacks with Andy... Maybe you should paint the ends orange?

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