stinky

DC Designs

Recommended Posts

The tiller stock is done:

post-32376-1236566303_thumb.jpg

 

After a streak of bad luck - like learning that tileboard will self destruct if glued into a tight radius and that relieving the backside with slits will make it snap on the slit and running into a glass door after getting a root canal - I found a way to bend tileboard into a 14.25 in radius. The tiller and a rudder post sleeve, a boom mandrel (slides apart so it will unmold) and the mold for the mast bulkhead:

 

post-32376-1236566313_thumb.jpg

 

My hot wire setup is now functional, powered by a battery charger. Next up is styrofoam cores for spreaders.

 

Less exciting but very important is a shop reorganization. There's a 20' x 7' area dedicated to decks and hulls set apart from the workbenches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The ASBO at the dinghy show today looked interesting and a very tempting build project, anyone get photos?

 

ASBO? Here ya go! First of two

 

Ian McP

 

(Alan will kill me for showing paint runs!but demonstrates the pressurre and effort he went thhrough to get the boat there , great work ol' son)

post-15958-1236599475_thumb.jpg

post-15958-1236599512_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The ASBO at the dinghy show today looked interesting and a very tempting build project, anyone get photos?

 

ASBO? Take two.

post-15958-1236599879_thumb.jpg

post-15958-1236599955_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ASBO? Take two.

 

WOW. That looks good! Alan should be able to drive it hard without stuffing the bow. Excellent color choice. Thanks Ian.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just finished the daggerboard underhung rudder.

You can see the tiller post and cow horns for the extensions.

post-2679-1236795581_thumb.jpg

post-2679-1236795689_thumb.jpg

post-2679-1236795626_thumb.jpg

I hope there's not too much friction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So now its time to buy some Carbon ….. would it be wiser to buy the tape required or just take from the cloth that I buy and forget the tape ??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So now its time to buy some Carbon ….. would it be wiser to buy the tape required or just take from the cloth that I buy and forget the tape ??

 

 

Are you getting an Asbo? Or your own design? Looks great fun, can't wait to see a few of these sailing in the UK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So now its time to buy some Carbon ….. would it be wiser to buy the tape required or just take from the cloth that I buy and forget the tape ??

 

 

Are you getting an Asbo? Or your own design? Looks great fun, can't wait to see a few of these sailing in the UK

 

 

building a seat to the SteveC design, at the moment I have a Nethercott which I am rebuilding on a shoe string as not to sure

how work will be after the end of the month

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So now its time to buy some Carbon ….. would it be wiser to buy the tape required or just take from the cloth that I buy and forget the tape ??

 

 

Are you getting an Asbo? Or your own design? Looks great fun, can't wait to see a few of these sailing in the UK

 

 

building a seat to the SteveC design, at the moment I have a Nethercott which I am rebuilding on a shoe string as not to sure

how work will be after the end of the month

 

You need more than one kind of tape for the SHC seat. The fore and aft edges get uni, the bottom gets biaxial and maybe some uni. I used uni covered with biax tape at all three corners.

 

Making tape from cloth forces you to manage fraying. I'd rather use tape. Another consideration is what your cloth will look like after cutting. To get the lengths for the seat you'll be cutting the long way and the leftover material would be long and narrow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So now its time to buy some Carbon ….. would it be wiser to buy the tape required or just take from the cloth that I buy and forget the tape ??

 

 

Are you getting an Asbo? Or your own design? Looks great fun, can't wait to see a few of these sailing in the UK

 

 

building a seat to the SteveC design, at the moment I have a Nethercott which I am rebuilding on a shoe string as not to sure

how work will be after the end of the month

 

Cool,

I just finished my Steve Clarke seat, and will be starting on the carriage this weekend. I didn't buy any tape, we just picked off the rolls of bi and uni carbon we have for building the rest of the boat. Before I cut the carbon, I give it a very light spray with 3M craft glue which reduces edge fraying considerably and appears to have no adverse effects to the two resins we've used so far (AMPREG 21 and Boat Cote).

 

Have you got all your pieces cut up yet? Geoff H does an excellent job with this, and though he's in Australia with our dollar being where it is it might pay to see what his pre fab stuff will be landed in the UK.

 

Good luck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So now its time to buy some Carbon ….. would it be wiser to buy the tape required or just take from the cloth that I buy and forget the tape ??

 

 

Are you getting an Asbo? Or your own design? Looks great fun, can't wait to see a few of these sailing in the UK

 

 

building a seat to the SteveC design, at the moment I have a Nethercott which I am rebuilding on a shoe string as not to sure

how work will be after the end of the month

 

Cool,

I just finished my Steve Clarke seat, and will be starting on the carriage this weekend. I didn't buy any tape, we just picked off the rolls of bi and uni carbon we have for building the rest of the boat. Before I cut the carbon, I give it a very light spray with 3M craft glue which reduces edge fraying considerably and appears to have no adverse effects to the two resins we've used so far (AMPREG 21 and Boat Cote).

 

Have you got all your pieces cut up yet? Geoff H does an excellent job with this, and though he's in Australia with our dollar being where it is it might pay to see what his pre fab stuff will be landed in the UK.

 

Good luck

 

Yes all the parts cut out and ready to go think it would be the Carbon needed on the exchange rate but then thats the price you pay for the technoligy keep up the good work on your builds

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"building a seat to the SteveC design"

 

"Cool,

I just finished my Steve Clarke seat"

 

Just to stop any confusion, the Kudos for the CNC seat design now being produced in the UK must go to Steve Clark/SHC of the US of A, not SteveC/Steve Clarke of the UK.

Though SteveC is also doing some superb design work, this time on AC's design/layout and has recently revamped the uk IC web site.

See : http://www.intcanoe.org.uk/new/ or http://www.intcanoe.org.uk/gallery/.

 

Ian McP

 

Yipee it's getting warmer. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"building a seat to the SteveC design"

 

"Cool,

I just finished my Steve Clarke seat"

 

Just to stop any confusion, the Kudos for the CNC seat design now being produced in the UK must go to Steve Clark/SHC of the US of A, not SteveC/Steve Clarke of the UK.

Though SteveC is also doing some superb design work, this time on AC's design/layout and has recently revamped the uk IC web site.

See : http://www.intcanoe.org.uk/new/ or http://www.intcanoe.org.uk/gallery/.

 

Ian McP

 

Yipee it's getting warmer. :)

 

 

Hi Ian I stand corrected on the mention of the wrong S.C. in the earlier thread still all going well here space frame now in place

on the top face. Have to clear some space in the garage to get the boat in then off with the decks and the iron work

 

AdrianM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry guys, the Day 1 Nationals video which was posted on Facebook has been busted by the copyright nazis. Day 2 is still up tho (we'll see how long it lasts). Does anyone know of a trick to disguise the fact that I have music in the audio? I mean, I firmly believe that Warren Zevon hisownself would not mind me using Boom Boom Mancini in my silly little video, nor Dick Dale, nor Jack White. (However, yes, I am aware that this is technically a copyright violation, even tho Im making no money off of it and giving credit, but Im a college student and therefore immune to any pangs of conscience about intellectual property issues).

 

Im working on a mac and I made the vid in iMovie. The music is actually meshed in over the native background noise (waves, lines slapping, Evinrudes, all those romantic nautical noises) so thats been tried. Any advice?

 

In the mean time Im going to upload a silent version to youtube when they finish their site maint. Ill post the links soon.

 

-Tommy

 

"The cure for anything is salt water- sweat, tears or the sea" ~Isak Dinesen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry guys, the Day 1 Nationals video which was posted on Facebook has been busted by the copyright nazis. Day 2 is still up tho (we'll see how long it lasts). Does anyone know of a trick to disguise the fact that I have music in the audio? I mean, I firmly believe that Warren Zevon hisownself would not mind me using Boom Boom Mancini in my silly little video, nor Dick Dale, nor Jack White. (However, yes, I am aware that this is technically a copyright violation, even tho Im making no money off of it and giving credit, but Im a college student and therefore immune to any pangs of conscience about intellectual property issues).

 

Im working on a mac and I made the vid in iMovie. The music is actually meshed in over the native background noise (waves, lines slapping, Evinrudes, all those romantic nautical noises) so thats been tried. Any advice?

 

In the mean time Im going to upload a silent version to youtube when they finish their site maint. Ill post the links soon.

 

-Tommy

 

"The cure for anything is salt water- sweat, tears or the sea" ~Isak Dinesen

 

I've been thinking about this as well, I haven't tried this fix, but since your on a mac, couldn't you use garageband? Play your song loud on your computer speakers using Itunes and record it using your internal mic as a custom track on Garageband, then load that track as the audio.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

C'mon, dude, man up and send the artist(s) an email and ask for permission. They'll probably say yes, as long as there's a link to a site selling their stuff. They might even be stoked.

 

Or you'll learn something valuable.

 

What is is ain't exactly clear.....

 

Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Warren Zevon is dead from Mesothelioma, hence the song "My Shit's Fucked Up" and the album, My Ride is Here. Been a WZ fan since the first album, Excitable Boy. Jackson Brown may have the song copyrights... Dick Dale rocks!!!!! Better Shred than Dead!

 

13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Warren Zevon is dead from Mesothelioma, hence the song "My Shit's Fucked Up" and the album, My Ride is Here. Been a WZ fan since the first album, Excitable Boy. Jackson Brown may have the song copyrights... Dick Dale rocks!!!!! Better Shred than Dead!

 

13

 

 

Try and contact the publishing record company, If it is still on their current list they should know who hold copyright, as the must sent fees somewhere. Copyright issues are always difficult to follow up especially for older material. At least you had the courtesy to acknowledge, and I think there are few people who refuse permission if an acknowledgement is offered. Its all good free advertising for them. Good luck and keep trying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Warren Zevon is dead from Mesothelioma, hence the song "My Shit's Fucked Up" and the album, My Ride is Here. Been a WZ fan since the first album, Excitable Boy. Jackson Brown may have the song copyrights... Dick Dale rocks!!!!! Better Shred than Dead!

 

13

 

Thanks, Andrew. I've been mixed up in the music biz so long I forget that most people do not associate an artist with their distribution/legal (et al) machine, however apparently invisible.

 

B)

 

Paul

 

edit- TC, sorry I wasn't more clear. You could start with ASCAP, I suppose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
post-16686-1237165829_thumb.jpgpost-16686-1237165849_thumb.jpg

Rigging progress

 

Very, very Nnce,

My mere mortal amateur build of the Geoff designed Flatpack is plodding along too

DSC00177.JPG

 

Had to measure up for sails before a lot of the fittings go on, so I have some for next months Nationals - I feel I will be going in well prepared with plenty of 'on water' time B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
post-16686-1237165829_thumb.jpgpost-16686-1237165849_thumb.jpg

Rigging progress

 

Genius!! absolute Genius.

 

How is it every boat you build can improve so much when last one was so awesome, Im so jealous thats not my boat.

Looks like I will have to go away and learn how to build a boat over a longer period of time compared to what I normally do so I have a vague chance of even getting close to the supurb quality you keep producing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
post-16686-1237165829_thumb.jpgpost-16686-1237165849_thumb.jpg

Rigging progress

 

Chris,

 

Once again, thanks for your contribution to the class. I am looking forward to seeing your new boat firsthand later this year! You give me something to aspire to for the next build!

 

It was also good to end the informative, but off topic Copyright Law highjack:)

 

Up here in the US East Coast the beginning of the sailing season begins with our late season Midwinters at the Sarasota Sailing Squadron. No form guide, but the usual suspects are expected.

 

Steve Clark will be sailing testing & evaluating GER 78 before she goes into the container.

Will Clark on the bright yellow "Kaito" will NOT be listening to any over early calls...

Dave Clark will continue the sibling rivalry drawing "Wonk" as his weapon of choice for the event

ICYM will be riding the ever fast "Uncle Walter"

John K will be causing Mayhem on the course

Atypicalguy may make a cameo appearance from LA on "Rapa Nui"?

Mr. Bill is expected to sail his 1988 design and inspiration for the new rule "Lust Puppet"

Big George will be driving "Mr. Boat"

 

 

Best

 

John K

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pardon my ignorance but what do the blocks do? Looks like it might alter the rake of the centerboard by the look of the small slide underneath but it's hard to see?

 

By the way, here's my effort so far (photo is day 3, without the seams carbon taped). Day four of the build program, about 8- 10hrs so far...

 

post-26260-1237169452_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
post-16686-1237165829_thumb.jpgpost-16686-1237165849_thumb.jpg

Rigging progress

 

Is that mess 'o blocks your brothers handiwork?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pardon my ignorance but what do the blocks do? Looks like it might alter the rake of the centerboard by the look of the small slide underneath but it's hard to see?

 

By the way, here's my effort so far (photo is day 3, without the seams carbon taped). Day four of the build program, about 8- 10hrs so far...

 

post-26260-1237169452_thumb.jpg

 

The blocks would be for locking/limiting a gybing board, similar system to what most I14's are using these days.

 

Looks like you have been getting stuck into your build also, keep the pics coming as JK often said to me :).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chris,

Have you raised the back of the dance floor just a bit?

Looks like a bit more freeboard on centerline at the pointy bit.

SHC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pardon my ignorance but what do the blocks do? Looks like it might alter the rake of the centerboard by the look of the small slide underneath but it's hard to see?

 

By the way, here's my effort so far (photo is day 3, without the seams carbon taped). Day four of the build program, about 8- 10hrs so far...

 

post-26260-1237169452_thumb.jpg

 

 

Hey Jethrow see you got a new sponsor in the council get it while you can....

 

New there was another use for them dam bins

 

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_LWMLvDM0AGs/Sb2n...-h/P3160001.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chris,

Have you raised the back of the dance floor just a bit?

Looks like a bit more freeboard on centerline at the pointy bit.

SHC

 

 

Yes, by about 25mm. That pretty much doubles the volume back there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah Adrian, those council wheelie bins are the greatest thing for boat building since the invention of milk crates :D About hip height and pretty stable. Kinda sucks though on rubbish night, when you have to move the boat around just so you can put the garbage out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kinda sucks though on rubbish night, when you have to move the boat around just so you can put the garbage out.

 

I hate that. I have the same problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I need the scoop on IC sails for a couple of reasons. First is to size my boom and mast, second is to commit to purchase.

 

Really important to me is to be able to glum onto the rigging and sail tuning that others, especially in RI, use. I don't want to be experimenting with rigs while learning to sail a new type of boat. I have a standard high modulud IC mast on order.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I need the scoop on IC sails for a couple of reasons. First is to size my boom and mast, second is to commit to purchase.

 

Really important to me is to be able to glum onto the rigging and sail tuning that others, especially in RI, use. I don't want to be experimenting with rigs while learning to sail a new type of boat. I have a standard high modulud IC mast on order.

 

Your mainsail is going to depend on your mast bend, so you'll need to measure that when it arrives to give to your sailmaker. A great guide for doing that can be found here http://www.cstcomposites.com/How%20to%20be...your%20mast.pdf .The decisions you need to make are where to mount your hounds, spreaders, gooseneck, and your forestay position (so you know the triangle your jib needs to fit in). Much of this hasn't changed from Nethercotts so here is a good starting point: http://www.internationalcanoe.yachting.org...^039;s/11863/0/

 

I'd love to update this table if people want to forward me their measurements.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I need the scoop on IC sails for a couple of reasons. First is to size my boom and mast, second is to commit to purchase.

 

Really important to me is to be able to glum onto the rigging and sail tuning that others, especially in RI, use. I don't want to be experimenting with rigs while learning to sail a new type of boat. I have a standard high modulud IC mast on order.

 

 

Kinder Industries and Tony Arends (Racer X) make the IC sails that most people are using in NA. Steve, Oliver, Willy etc. are using Kinder and John K is going fast with Racer X. Both these sailmakers will have bend #'s for your mast. It may be that the gnav pushes in a little more bend down low, I don't know.

I've got a new set of Kinders that I'll put up in the next day or so. I'll take some pictures.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I need the scoop on IC sails for a couple of reasons. First is to size my boom and mast, second is to commit to purchase.

 

Really important to me is to be able to glum onto the rigging and sail tuning that others, especially in RI, use. I don't want to be experimenting with rigs while learning to sail a new type of boat. I have a standard high modulud IC mast on order.

 

 

Kinder Industries and Tony Arends (Racer X) make the IC sails that most people are using in NA. Steve, Oliver, Willy etc. are using Kinder and John K is going fast with Racer X. Both these sailmakers will have bend #'s for your mast. It may be that the gnav pushes in a little more bend down low, I don't know.

I've got a new set of Kinders that I'll put up in the next day or so. I'll take some pictures.

 

Both Kinder & Racer X will be represented at the Midwinters this weekend, Both make good sails.

 

Kinder Sails follow the IC standard for the past 25 yeard with a 7.8 SM Main, and a 2.2 SM Jib

 

Racer X puts more area into the Main with 8.0 SM & and a 2.0 SM Jib.

 

Racer X sails have more area in the head and a longer foot.

 

Both are fast, & both will win races over the weekend.

 

We will have 9 IC's on the line!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What a difference a week makes! The photo below was taken last Thursday...

 

post-26260-1237452348_thumb.jpg

 

This photo was taken today (Thursday Oz time)

 

post-26260-1237452401_thumb.jpg

 

I'm pretty happy with how it's going but now I realize that Stressed Ply Construction has nothing to do with what you do with the ply. It's you mindset when you start bending all this stuff together and the stress on your body and mind increases with the tension on the ply. I have third degree burns (maybe not quite) from trying to get the last of a pot of epoxy glue onto the job after it had kicked and got stuck on my (unprotected) finger. I couldn't get the wire ties through the holes on the foredeck as well as applying the glue in time so resorted to heaps of gaffer tape. Luckily I didn't try and do the carbon inside the hull in the same day as I was intending. If I'd tried that I would have ended up in a straight jacket. Oh, well, tomorrows another day. Bring on the carbon...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What a difference a week makes! The photo below was taken last Thursday...

 

post-26260-1237452348_thumb.jpg

 

This photo was taken today (Thursday Oz time)

 

post-26260-1237452401_thumb.jpg

 

I'm pretty happy with how it's going but now I realize that Stressed Ply Construction has nothing to do with what you do with the ply. It's you mindset when you start bending all this stuff together and the stress on your body and mind increases with the tension on the ply. I have third degree burns (maybe not quite) from trying to get the last of a pot of epoxy glue onto the job after it had kicked and got stuck on my (unprotected) finger. I couldn't get the wire ties through the holes on the foredeck as well as applying the glue in time so resorted to heaps of gaffer tape. Luckily I didn't try and do the carbon inside the hull in the same day as I was intending. If I'd tried that I would have ended up in a straight jacket. Oh, well, tomorrows another day. Bring on the carbon...

 

Looking good! Is that Steve's design?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What a difference a week makes! The photo below was taken last Thursday...

 

post-26260-1237452348_thumb.jpg

 

This photo was taken today (Thursday Oz time)

 

post-26260-1237452401_thumb.jpg

 

Damn Jethrow. Look at you go! Very cool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What a difference a week makes! The photo below was taken last Thursday...

 

post-26260-1237452348_thumb.jpg

 

This photo was taken today (Thursday Oz time)

 

post-26260-1237452401_thumb.jpg

 

I'm pretty happy with how it's going but now I realize that Stressed Ply Construction has nothing to do with what you do with the ply. It's you mindset when you start bending all this stuff together and the stress on your body and mind increases with the tension on the ply. I have third degree burns (maybe not quite) from trying to get the last of a pot of epoxy glue onto the job after it had kicked and got stuck on my (unprotected) finger. I couldn't get the wire ties through the holes on the foredeck as well as applying the glue in time so resorted to heaps of gaffer tape. Luckily I didn't try and do the carbon inside the hull in the same day as I was intending. If I'd tried that I would have ended up in a straight jacket. Oh, well, tomorrows another day. Bring on the carbon...

 

At the rate your going we will see you at the OZ national this Easter :), keep up the good work looking good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jethrow started with Steve's cad file, reviewed my Hollow Log article, borrowed my models to see what happens in reality and then designed his own boat. Looking good so for but a lot of work yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's right Phil. the easy bit is done now.

 

As of ten minutes ago the inside is carboned so we'll see how stiff it is tomorrow. If anyone is doing their own stressed ply hull I'd definitely have a good look at Phil's write up on how he built his hull, even if you go for a different design, it's a wealth of knowledge. I had the entire hull and seat CNC cut (five and a half sheets) and because I paid careful attention to the design file, the whole jigsaw puzzle went together quite well. The Steve Clarke wave splice works a treat but don't attempt to do it by hand, it needs to be to quite close (computer cut) tolerances otherwise the geometry will be thrown out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sailed the new boat in wind waves yesterday best test so far. Wind was around 20kts gusting upto 25kts from the North at McCrae for those who have sailed there know the waves do build up from that direction, as wind built from light upto around 20 through the day, the waves while big enough were very sailable.

 

Uphill - the boat handled like any other canoe just faster through the water tacking in the waves take a little more care to not just throw the boat around without considering the sea state at the time like what was possible with the Nethercott in similar conditions. Reaching - was huge, a really exciting ride catching and passing cats is always fun :). My heart was in my mouth for most of the ride thinking Im going to send her down the mine on every wave, thankfully I didn't. I came real close once when hit by a decent gust of at least 25knots as the bow was starting to go down the face of a wave I really thought I was gone but managed somehow to save it.

Running - while the boat didn't feel super fast the A-cats out on the day didn't really pull away all that much nowhere near the amount Im use to in the past or expected they would so that was a nice surprise.

 

Through the waves is the word not over thats the biggest difference compared to the Nethercotts at least for my hull shape. Its a very different type of sailing scary at times but exciting and pleasing when the bow doesn't head down the mine when at first you think that its all over.

 

I need to add some more beef to my carriage to stop some flexing otherwise everything held together and worked.

 

Unfortuantly no photos the races where just that bit to far from the club, we have some nice pic's of boats in the distance though and if you look hard you can spot the canoe :).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sailed the new boat in wind waves yesterday best test so far. Wind was around 20kts gusting upto 25kts from the North at McCrae for those who have sailed there know the waves do build up from that direction, as wind built from light upto around 20 through the day, the waves while big enough were very sailable.

 

 

Good report. Must have been interesting launching off the beach there, how did that go?

 

How far aft was your carriage on those reaches?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sailed the new boat in wind waves yesterday best test so far. Wind was around 20kts gusting upto 25kts from the North at McCrae for those who have sailed there know the waves do build up from that direction, as wind built from light upto around 20 through the day, the waves while big enough were very sailable.

 

 

Good report. Must have been interesting launching off the beach there, how did that go?

 

How far aft was your carriage on those reaches?

 

 

Getting off the beach was ok, coming back was not very graceful. I need a better rudder/cassette system and centre board that doesn't have a tight spot to make it look sort of gracefull. I've sailed at McCrae with bigger waves and more wind from North which made getting back really difficult, where last weekend was just challenging as the waves only built up during the day from nothing the other time they had all night to build (scary)

 

The carriage was a most of the way up the back of the bus, I still had some more travel aft if I really needed, from the footage of the Worlds I would say about the same amount back that I saw you had String Theory's carraige.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Technical question; does anyone have an estimate for the weight/area for epoxy coating and uv protection on plywood? Just tyring to get an accurate panel weight for 3mm plywood conrtuction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Technical question; does anyone have an estimate for the weight/area for epoxy coating and uv protection on plywood? Just tyring to get an accurate panel weight for 3mm plywood conrtuction.

 

 

Mal - PM Me if you haven't gotten your answer yet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AUS31 has had her 'final' paint before the Nationals (yes it is undercoat, and yes she will be rubbed back and faired after the Nationals - I just ran out of time to get the finish I want before the racing starts. Fittings are being added now.

DSC00159.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And her foils are here:

 

 

This is how the MECHAR foils come with (or without) a Flatpack IC kit - CNC 2 piece centreboard and 1 piece rudder (also pictured is kick up rudder stock). Not pictured is the Centreboard cassette, and tiller.

post-9663-1237841896_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Technical question; does anyone have an estimate for the weight/area for epoxy coating and uv protection on plywood? Just tyring to get an accurate panel weight for 3mm plywood conrtuction.

 

I'm guessing somewhere around 400gm/meter2 for a couple of coats of epoxy, sanded and painted with some kind of finish.

There must be someone on here who knows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mal,

Back before we started building the development canoes there was a serious argument as to whether we could build them down to 50kg minimum AUW. American canoeist and design expert Paul Miller provided a spreadsheet with all the unit weights:

1/8in okume 0.4 lb/sqft

1/8 okume with 4 oz carbon one side 0.46 lb/sqft

Okume with carbon both sides 0.49lb/sqft

 

Paul's spreadsheet attempted to prove that the 50kg was imposible but as several of us have now built ply boats down to weight and lots af foam boats well under, some of the numbers might be a bit out.

 

Phi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mal,

Back before we started building the development canoes there was a serious argument as to whether we could build them down to 50kg minimum AUW. American canoeist and design expert Paul Miller provided a spreadsheet with all the unit weights:

1/8in okume 0.4 lb/sqft

1/8 okume with 4 oz carbon one side 0.46 lb/sqft

Okume with carbon both sides 0.49lb/sqft

 

Paul's spreadsheet attempted to prove that the 50kg was imposible but as several of us have now built ply boats down to weight and lots af foam boats well under, some of the numbers might be a bit out.

 

Phi

 

My boat is now 4kg under ( 46kg) even after two major hacks, much doubling of carbon etc at many joints, and many layers of paint.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mal,

Back before we started building the development canoes there was a serious argument as to whether we could build them down to 50kg minimum AUW. American canoeist and design expert Paul Miller provided a spreadsheet with all the unit weights:

1/8in okume 0.4 lb/sqft

1/8 okume with 4 oz carbon one side 0.46 lb/sqft

Okume with carbon both sides 0.49lb/sqft

 

Paul's spreadsheet attempted to prove that the 50kg was imposible but as several of us have now built ply boats down to weight and lots af foam boats well under, some of the numbers might be a bit out.

 

Phi

 

My boat is now 4kg under ( 46kg) even after two major hacks, much doubling of carbon etc at many joints, and many layers of paint.

 

I've been a bit nervous to weigh mine, there is not much I can do about it now anyway so I'll just weigh at the end. 4kg under is awesome!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At last sailing!

 

post-2679-1237930896_thumb.jpg

 

post-2679-1237930905_thumb.jpg

 

Mostly good, some not so good.

 

The sail conversion to a more conventional bolt-rope style is much easier to use - it's nowhere near a s stiff as the camber-induced sail, making tacking and gybing much easier. ( but is now about 0.7 sq m too small) .

 

More room under the boom.

 

The transom sheeting works well, the twin extensions work OK, but a bit of a bungie fest. It means a dropped extension now stays within reach.

 

The water flow at the back seems less disturbed, more rocker double chines works ok in the tacks too allowing the bow to turn better.

 

The worst thing is the underhung rudder in a big bearing box thingie. It has as suspected too much friction, so steering is very jerky.

So it's time to find the bits of the old stock and hang it off the transom on a pin as before. ( but this wll limit the tiller/steering angle at the mainsheet strop :angry: )

 

Also tricky is the board position under the seat, so I need to move the carriage well back to get the board in or out.

 

In the first race of the season, I was still comfortably faster and higher upwind than anything else, but slow downwind! No change there, but at least I should be able to do a race making every tack instead of 1 fail in 4 or 5 .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In the first race of the season, I was still comfortably faster and higher upwind than anything else, but slow downwind! No change there, but at least I should be able to do a race making every tack instead of 1 fail in 4 or 5 .

 

Faster and higher up wind than????? just for interest sake :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In the first race of the season, I was still comfortably faster and higher upwind than anything else, but slow downwind! No change there, but at least I should be able to do a race making every tack instead of 1 fail in 4 or 5 .

 

Faster and higher up wind than????? just for interest sake :)

 

handicap racing with RS700s, RS800s, 5o5, (but also pointing higher than RS400s in different class ) and Dart15 cats - but it's hard not to point higher than a Dart 15.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks to those who responded to my panel weight question. I'm trying to design a plywood IC without using any carbon (mainly a cost thing). For panel stiffness I'm using closely spaced frames, egg box style. I'm modelling everything including the glue fillets, so I should be able to get an accurate weight if my inputs are correct.

 

A question for Andy P; Initially your boat had a T foil rudder and a fixed carriage. I'm revisiting that idea. Can you please remind me why you dumped that idea?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Mal

 

With the ply IC I'm building now I have been pleasantly surprised at how much the double bias carbon has stiffened up the hull. Even with a fair bit of bending of the bottom panel the floor is still pretty flexy (in comparison). I think you would need a lot of bulkheads to reduce the panel size to stop oil canning. The carbon is only another Aus$250 approx to do the floor and it also helps the tortional strength when the seat is at the back and the mast is trying to go the other way. I only have the carbon from the mast step back to the stern but you could probably go from the shrouds to the back of the seat track and be just as effective and also use a couple of meters less carbon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The US Midwinters wrapped up this Sunday after three days of challenging short course racing with a variety of wind strengths. Regardless of the wind strength, the shifts and puffs kept everyone on their toes. Everyone had a race where they shined, and it was proved on more than one occasion that a well sailed Nethercott can still whip a New Rules boat if the idiot with the stick is not sailing well.

 

Steve Clark Sailing GER 78 won the event. Rogers’s new ride definitely showed burst of speed when the wind was up and when sailing downwind. As usual ICYM was very quick in a breeze, but poor navigation and hardware issues contributed to some high scores and some alphabet on the score sheet. Mayhem lived up to her name, and while it was not pretty she placed well. Willy Clark is getting Kato up to speed, and Dave Clark took on Wonk and the conditions with grit & determination. Big George showed us all how to sail in a breeze, and it was great to have Atypicalguy come on out east to join us for the first time in a couple of years.

 

As the conditions were challenging, the regatta results boiled down to the sailors much more than the boats, variations in hull, rig & foil design. Keeping the sails dry is fast, and keeping your boat together is faster! Steve sailed a great regatta, and thrived in the difficult conditions. Congratulations!

 

Sarasota Sailing Squadron 2009 One Design Midwinters

March 20-22, 2009

INT. CANOE Class Series Summary

 

1 GER 78 Steve Clark 17 Points 4 1 3 1 1 1 3 1 (9\DNS) 2

 

2 USA 244 John Kells 25 Points 1 3 4 4 5 (6) 2 2 1 3

 

3 USA 240 Oliver Moore 27 Points2 7 1 (9\DNF) 2 5 1 3 5 1

 

4 USA241 Willy Clark 44 Points7 (9\DNS) 2 9\DNF 7 2 5 5 2 5

 

5 USA220 George Saunders 45 Points6 2 6 3 3 (9\DNS) 9\DNS 9\DNS 3 4

 

6 92 David Clark 48 Points 5 6 7 (9\DNF) 6 3 4 4 4 9\DNS

 

7 USA216 Bill Beaver 59 Points 3 4 5 2 (9\DNS) 9\DNS 9\DNS 9\DNS 9\DNS 9\DNS

 

8 USA219 Karl Wittneble 59 Points 8 5 (9\DNS) 5 4 4 9\DNS 9\DNS 9\DNF 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The US Midwinters wrapped up this Sunday after three days of challenging short course racing with a variety of wind strengths. Regardless of the wind strength, the shifts and puffs kept everyone on their toes. Everyone had a race where they shined, and it was proved on more than one occasion that a well sailed Nethercott can still whip a New Rules boat if the idiot with the stick is not sailing well.

 

Steve Clark Sailing GER 78 won the event. Rogers’s new ride definitely showed burst of speed when the wind was up and when sailing downwind. As usual ICYM was very quick in a breeze, but poor navigation and hardware issues contributed to some high scores and some alphabet on the score sheet. Mayhem lived up to her name, and while it was not pretty she placed well. Willy Clark is getting Kato up to speed, and Dave Clark took on Wonk and the conditions with grit & determination. Big George showed us all how to sail in a breeze, and it was great to have Atypicalguy come on out east to join us for the first time in a couple of years.

 

As the conditions were challenging, the regatta results boiled down to the sailors much more than the boats, variations in hull, rig & foil design. Keeping the sails dry is fast, and keeping your boat together is faster! Steve sailed a great regatta, and thrived in the difficult conditions. Congratulations!

 

Sarasota Sailing Squadron 2009 One Design Midwinters

March 20-22, 2009

INT. CANOE Class Series Summary

 

1 GER 78 Steve Clark 17 Points 4 1 3 1 1 1 3 1 (9\DNS) 2

 

2 USA 244 John Kells 25 Points 1 3 4 4 5 (6) 2 2 1 3

 

3 USA 240 Oliver Moore 27 Points2 7 1 (9\DNF) 2 5 1 3 5 1

 

4 USA241 Willy Clark 44 Points7 (9\DNS) 2 9\DNF 7 2 5 5 2 5

 

5 USA220 George Saunders 45 Points6 2 6 3 3 (9\DNS) 9\DNS 9\DNS 3 4

 

6 92 David Clark 48 Points 5 6 7 (9\DNF) 6 3 4 4 4 9\DNS

 

7 USA216 Bill Beaver 59 Points 3 4 5 2 (9\DNS) 9\DNS 9\DNS 9\DNS 9\DNS 9\DNS

 

8 USA219 Karl Wittneble 59 Points 8 5 (9\DNS) 5 4 4 9\DNS 9\DNS 9\DNF 6

 

That DNS the race committee gave me is totally false. I won that start.

 

Kaito is starting to go awfully fast particularly when the wind comes up. Once I get out off the end of my seat I really feel like she clicks into a whole new gear. I definitely roasted a few people off the line when I wasn't tying myself in knots because I can't ever come up with systems that work. I was also attacked by an inconvenient albacore fleet on numerous occasions.

 

In other news the winter issue of the Canoesletter is nearly finished and I should be publishing shortly. I am just working out one last scheduling question and then I will send it along to John who handles the mailing list. If you did not initially receive a newsletter last time and had to pm me to get one chances are this will happen again. I added your names to my mailing list but then I fractured my hard drive and lost everything. If you do not receive a copy this time around pm myself or John and one of us will forward you a copy and add you to the mailing list.

 

Word,

 

Willy

 

PS all you tech heads this is the newsletter for you as it is almost entirely about boat construction and design. I got a lot of interesting submissions from a bunch of interesting people. Thanks to everyone who submitted to the newsletter, it makes my life easier

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Willy

 

Is the new newsletter going to be available online for us non-US people or is it "If I told you I'd have to kill you"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its good to hear that Steve won in a stressed ply boat not completely unlike the Log. Still fast downwind too with a sloop rig.

Should inspire Jethrow who's building the same style of boat.

As there is no active buyer interest in the Log it might have to have a revamp over the winter? Chainplates and shrouds at least but sloop or cat rig?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The US Midwinters wrapped up this Sunday after three days of challenging short course racing with a variety of wind strengths. Regardless of the wind strength, the shifts and puffs kept everyone on their toes. Everyone had a race where they shined, and it was proved on more than one occasion that a well sailed Nethercott can still whip a New Rules boat if the idiot with the stick is not sailing well.

 

Steve Clark Sailing GER 78 won the event. Rogers’s new ride definitely showed burst of speed when the wind was up and when sailing downwind. As usual ICYM was very quick in a breeze, but poor navigation and hardware issues contributed to some high scores and some alphabet on the score sheet. Mayhem lived up to her name, and while it was not pretty she placed well. Willy Clark is getting Kato up to speed, and Dave Clark took on Wonk and the conditions with grit & determination. Big George showed us all how to sail in a breeze, and it was great to have Atypicalguy come on out east to join us for the first time in a couple of years.

 

As the conditions were challenging, the regatta results boiled down to the sailors much more than the boats, variations in hull, rig & foil design. Keeping the sails dry is fast, and keeping your boat together is faster! Steve sailed a great regatta, and thrived in the difficult conditions. Congratulations!

 

Sarasota Sailing Squadron 2009 One Design Midwinters

March 20-22, 2009

INT. CANOE Class Series Summary

 

1 GER 78 Steve Clark 17 Points 4 1 3 1 1 1 3 1 (9\DNS) 2

 

2 USA 244 John Kells 25 Points 1 3 4 4 5 (6) 2 2 1 3

 

3 USA 240 Oliver Moore 27 Points2 7 1 (9\DNF) 2 5 1 3 5 1

 

4 USA241 Willy Clark 44 Points7 (9\DNS) 2 9\DNF 7 2 5 5 2 5

 

5 USA220 George Saunders 45 Points6 2 6 3 3 (9\DNS) 9\DNS 9\DNS 3 4

 

6 92 David Clark 48 Points 5 6 7 (9\DNF) 6 3 4 4 4 9\DNS

 

7 USA216 Bill Beaver 59 Points 3 4 5 2 (9\DNS) 9\DNS 9\DNS 9\DNS 9\DNS 9\DNS

 

8 USA219 Karl Wittneble 59 Points 8 5 (9\DNS) 5 4 4 9\DNS 9\DNS 9\DNF 6

 

 

thats definetely great news to me - but i will have no excuses when my performance isnt as fantsstic as steves

I agree with Phil that this should inspire everybody who is thinking about or already building a stressed ply boat

 

Roger

IC GER 68 + 78

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi Willy

 

Is the new newsletter going to be available online for us non-US people or is it "If I told you I'd have to kill you"?

 

The Newsletter comes to me and I forward it on to the Aussie masses.

 

Great to see all these different styles of IC doing well, it means there is no one definitive 'fast hull' which I think is fantastic - my Saturday launch looks like pushing into Sunday (there just aren't enough hours in the day when you still have to go to work).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A question for Andy P; Initially your boat had a T foil rudder and a fixed carriage. I'm revisiting that idea. Can you please remind me why you dumped that idea?

 

 

A good idea, but it didn't work quite well enough.

The carriage was in the aft position, so my weight was always well back.

In theory, the pintail stern should have low drag even when immersed, but with the low rocker hull shape and weight aft it was a bit slow and slappy at the front until it got windy.

The T foil was intended lift the hull aft when going upwind like i14, and prevent nosedives downwind like moth, but didn't really do either ( probably due to the low rocker shape and the long hull ), and the slowness of the twist tiller extn adjustment.

The boat was OK in a breeze ( apart from the tacking issues as previously discussed ), when the aft seat and the Tfoil worked Ok in steady conditions.

In very light stuff, the boat was much faster if i stood up by the mast, so i needed to move weight fwds.

 

The boat was much better after adding a carriage so the seat could be fwd upwind, and running. I sailed at an open meeting with two types of rudder - with the normal rudder I had good speed upwind, being near or at the front of the (IC and AC ) fleet at the first mark. In similar conditions in other races, using the T-foil I was mid fleet - so i didn't use it again! It seemed to add drag for no benefit in lift or anti-nosedive. Maybe faster control would improve it, but I don't have enough hands.

 

Perhaps a hull with lots of rocker would work better, the T foil would have more effect on trim, and the hull wouldn't need as much external trim angle adjustment anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A question for Andy P; Initially your boat had a T foil rudder and a fixed carriage. I'm revisiting that idea. Can you please remind me why you dumped that idea?

 

 

A good idea, but it didn't work quite well enough.

The carriage was in the aft position, so my weight was always well back.

In theory, the pintail stern should have low drag even when immersed, but with the low rocker hull shape and weight aft it was a bit slow and slappy at the front until it got windy.

The T foil was intended lift the hull aft when going upwind like i14, and prevent nosedives downwind like moth, but didn't really do either ( probably due to the low rocker shape and the long hull ), and the slowness of the twist tiller extn adjustment.

The boat was OK in a breeze ( apart from the tacking issues as previously discussed ), when the aft seat and the Tfoil worked Ok in steady conditions.

In very light stuff, the boat was much faster if i stood up by the mast, so i needed to move weight fwds.

 

The boat was much better after adding a carriage so the seat could be fwd upwind, and running. I sailed at an open meeting with two types of rudder - with the normal rudder I had good speed upwind, being near or at the front of the (IC and AC ) fleet at the first mark. In similar conditions in other races, using the T-foil I was mid fleet - so i didn't use it again! It seemed to add drag for no benefit in lift or anti-nosedive. Maybe faster control would improve it, but I don't have enough hands.

 

Perhaps a hull with lots of rocker would work better, the T foil would have more effect on trim, and the hull wouldn't need as much external trim angle adjustment anyway.

 

 

 

right on everybody ! it is great to see so much free thinking followed by active building in our class.

I hope to be able in the future to show my face at some Worlds and meet you all!

I hope to pick up my prototype hull from Chris Maas next week and get it finished in time for softer water.

Yahoo!

cheers, Kenny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A good idea, but it didn't work quite well enough.

The carriage was in the aft position, so my weight was always well back.

 

My intention is to have the seat fixed in the forward position for optimal static trim in light conditions, and to use the foil to control downwind trim in heavier winds. I would be saving the weight of the carriage and track system, and simplifying the hull construction a little. If a quick control can be used, like a twist grip tiller extension, it may be possible to get better trim control downwind than if using a seat carriage. I find in practice that when I move my carriage aft, it's never in the optimum position for the whole leg, I always want it further aft in the gusts, and further forward in the lulls. Will the added drag of the foil be worth the gains? I don't know.

 

There is a bit of an ulterior motive to using the rudder foil. For a while I've had the idea of using a canting centreboard. The idea is to allow the centreboard to swing sideways up to say 45 degrees either side of centreline. It then becomes a surface piercing foil, or at least, will provide some additional lift when sailing upwind. This idea gets around the foil restrictions in the canoe rules, and in light winds it can be locked in the vertical position, so becomes a conventional centreboard. There will be a bit of work involved in designing the centreboard case :lol:

 

On the subject of the panel weight, for those interested, I've decided to allow for about 200 microns of epoxy on each side of the panel. This give me a coating weight of around 420g/m^2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My theory on the rudder is that it isn't as important on a lightly loaded 17' skinny singlehander as on a heavier 14' doublehander, or a non-foiling 11' Moth.

 

Sounds like the A-cats are playing the same game with daggerboards canted tips inward to provide some lift. I don't see what it has to do with a rudder lifting foil though.

 

The daggerboard on my moth cants fore/aft on a pivot. You could do something roughly similar with a laterally canting board; just make a socket for the top of the board to fit into, and run pins fore/aft into the leading and trailing edges of the socket at the hull exit. You can build little recesses in the bottom of the boat to land the pins in, and through bolt them to the bottom of the hull, with a separate pin at the top of the socket permitting you to pull the board up through it to satisfy the rule and permit reefing offwind. Making a case is a simple matter of deciding how much cant you want to try; I would suggest going with about twice as much as you think you will use, as it is easier to take range out than put it into your trunk after the fact (ask me how I know). It could be kind of fun to try a lot of cant and have the boat scoot sideways if you get caught out by a puff and end up heeling a lot. Maybe put some rubber stops on either side, damp it down a bit, and let it float both upwind and down - sort of a nice idea.

 

A good idea, but it didn't work quite well enough.

The carriage was in the aft position, so my weight was always well back.

 

My intention is to have the seat fixed in the forward position for optimal static trim in light conditions, and to use the foil to control downwind trim in heavier winds. I would be saving the weight of the carriage and track system, and simplifying the hull construction a little. If a quick control can be used, like a twist grip tiller extension, it may be possible to get better trim control downwind than if using a seat carriage. I find in practice that when I move my carriage aft, it's never in the optimum position for the whole leg, I always want it further aft in the gusts, and further forward in the lulls. Will the added drag of the foil be worth the gains? I don't know.

 

There is a bit of an ulterior motive to using the rudder foil. For a while I've had the idea of using a canting centreboard. The idea is to allow the centreboard to swing sideways up to say 45 degrees either side of centreline. It then becomes a surface piercing foil, or at least, will provide some additional lift when sailing upwind. This idea gets around the foil restrictions in the canoe rules, and in light winds it can be locked in the vertical position, so becomes a conventional centreboard. There will be a bit of work involved in designing the centreboard case :lol:

 

On the subject of the panel weight, for those interested, I've decided to allow for about 200 microns of epoxy on each side of the panel. This give me a coating weight of around 420g/m^2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sounds like the A-cats are playing the same game with daggerboards canted tips inward to provide some lift. I don't see what it has to do with a rudder lifting foil though.

 

That depends on whether there is enough lift to fly the hull, in which case the rudder foil would be needed for longitudinal stability. If not, then the rudder foil would not be needed. Theoretically you should be able to tune the cant angle so that the hull will never fly, but which is faster? Flying with a surface piercing foil brings up ventilation issues, so not flying might be a good option, particularly if you can do without the rudder foil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My intention is to have the seat fixed in the forward position for optimal static trim in light conditions, and to use the foil to control downwind trim in heavier winds. I would be saving the weight of the carriage and track system, and simplifying the hull construction a little.

I'll be very interested to see how it works out. My concern would be having the plank in the forward position means that in breeze the foil will have to be creating a good deal of negative lift, and thus really forcing the boat back down into the water. Not only drag from the foil, but also drag in increased displacement.

 

At the time Andy was building his boat I was mulling over the idea of having two fixed positions for the plank, light airs and heavy airs. That way I could use the T foil to lift the boat in a breeze, but be able to use the foil to control trim if caught with the plank in the light airs position. I more or less abandoned the idea when Andy's eval came back quite so negative. And in truth the weight saving over a sliding carriage wasn't that great. The biggest bonus would have been the possibility of cleaner aerodynamic drag.

 

There's no reason not to try again - something radical has to be amazingly right first time if its to be better than well established systems. Its pretty unlikely that a first implemention will be great. However unless you are as fast and capable a builder and rebuilder of boats as Andy is I would suggest you build in the capacity for the boat to be readily converted to something more conventional. Having had to back out the odd idea myself in the past I suggest you give the boat a seat carriage with tracks in the mk one, and only introduce the fixed position afer you've got reasonable confidence in the optimum position.

 

You could talk to Andy about canting daggerboards too: he has some experience!

 

Time to go back to puzzling over my ideas for a better jib pole. Might be time to get the broomstick and string out soon!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My intention is to have the seat fixed in the forward position for optimal static trim in light conditions, and to use the foil to control downwind trim in heavier winds. I would be saving the weight of the carriage and track system, and simplifying the hull construction a little. If a quick control can be used, like a twist grip tiller extension, it may be possible to get better trim control downwind than if using a seat carriage. I find in practice that when I move my carriage aft, it's never in the optimum position for the whole leg, I always want it further aft in the gusts, and further forward in the lulls. Will the added drag of the foil be worth the gains? I don't know.

 

I tried the T - foil rudder on String Theory. It was very effective. It could easily lift the stern clear of the water upwind (and stuff the bow in!) with the carriage all the way aft. Downwind it could suck the stern right down making the boat a lot less scary on windy reaches. The problem was that it was slow. Or at best no faster. There were some flaws in the execution though - the twist grip control was so jerky that fine adjustments couldn't be done. The foil could have been smaller too, it was roughly 6cm x 70cm.

 

I don't think using the t-foil instead of your weight - which you are carrying around anyway so might as well use - to pull the stern down is the way to go. The IC doesn't have the brute power of an I14 and, for us, these little bits of drag really cost.

 

Properly done it might be faster. Maybe along with your canting board. It's all fun stuff to play with and, as Andy shows us, if you don't like it change it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A question for Andy P; Initially your boat had a T foil rudder and a fixed carriage. I'm revisiting that idea. Can you please remind me why you dumped that idea?

 

 

 

The T foil was intended lift the hull aft when going upwind like i14, and prevent nosedives downwind like moth, but didn't really do either ( probably due to the low rocker shape and the long hull ), and the slowness of the twist tiller extn adjustment.

 

 

But as Chris Maas says, the T could make the bow fly high, or lift the stern so much that the stem was fully immersed, but without making it faster ( it felt slower whatever angle it was at - always the wrong angle )

 

The twist extension adjustment was too slow, needing several turns from max + to max - , tricky when doing a nosedive.

The moth t-foil style is self damping - a nosedive gives downforce = less of a nosedive.

If the T is set for upwind lift, any gust increases the boat speed, ( lift = square of boatspeed ), so the bow goes down in a puff - upwind.

T's are used on UK cherubs now, with fairly big foils and using them i14 style upwind, with both crew often trapping behind the transom in a breeze - upwind :blink: . They mostly use string and block adjustment, which is much more rapid for adjustment, and the T can be 'blown' to neutral or downforce by releasing from a cleat, which can be operated by the crew,- or the helm if the crew is doing mainsheet.

 

 

I've tried canting daggerboard on a moth ( another one of my 'too many good ideas on one boat' ). At the time, we were using high wings to get added righting moment - and alloy masts which helps sorta in this way , so the cant was intended to make the board vertical when the boat was heeled. Others were doing adjustable canting rigs with lots of string and wires, but the canting board seemed a simpler method - one moving part, automatic function.

Sailed level, the board gave noticeable lift, and the boat was fast reaching.

However, tacking or light winds were very wobbly, with the hull flopping over very quickly from one cant angle to the other side. Running was almost impossible unless the board was locked.

 

Later developments using lighter carbon rigs, flatter wings made the boats easier and faster, so the canting rigs and boards were left behind as another not quite there development.

 

The board case had a normal foil shaped slot at the bottom, with a triangular section open case, wide at the top, a small roller on the top front of the board to sit on an arc front of the case, bungie to hold it down, a string and cleat to lock it off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks to those who responded to my panel weight question. I'm trying to design a plywood IC without using any carbon (mainly a cost thing). For panel stiffness I'm using closely spaced frames, egg box style. I'm modelling everything including the glue fillets, so I should be able to get an accurate weight if my inputs are correct.

 

A question for Andy P; Initially your boat had a T foil rudder and a fixed carriage. I'm revisiting that idea. Can you please remind me why you dumped that idea?

 

Hi Mal

 

My hull (no decks yet - still.) has been built using carbon where necessary under frames and taped on joins etc. 100gsm eglass over 3mm gaboon both sides - haven't weighed it yet. Took a bit of advice and pluck to go that way and may prove too soft when rig tension gets pulled on but I had to cut costs as well. It seems to be plenty stiff so far but time will tell. I think the chines may also add to f-a stiffness

 

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I gave the foiled rudder thing ago a few years back and found very similar results to Chris and like atypicalguy said the foil isn't as important on the long narrow light 17' long hull.

 

I never even thought about using it on Twist of Fate for the last Worlds. Having sailed my new rules boat finally in some breeze and waves I dont think the expense and difficulty launching and retrieving is even worth a try with the new canoe's. Going down the mine is more about your skill reacting to the gusts. I have a fairly fine bow which is only slightly fuller than String Theory and found 20 knots much easier than I scared myself into thinking it was going to be like.

 

The cost of foils on a rudder v's carriage rails pay's for a fair amount of carbon in the hull. Having a stronger stiffer hull I think is a better investment, than a gadget thats been tried before and found to be of no real benefit. When people from different corners of the world doing their own thing come up with such similar conclusions I figure there is something in that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Having a stronger stiffer hull I think is a better investment, than a gadget thats been tried before and found to be of no real benefit. When people from different corners of the world doing their own thing come up with such similar conclusions I figure there is something in that.

 

But Hayden, where's the fun in doing what everyone else does? Of course I fully agree that if the objective is to win races, then the more conservative approach is best, i.e. use the best proven technology and train hard. However, I'm firstly a designer and tinkerer, and winning races is not my prime objective. Actually, my other boat is a Laser, and what I like about the Laser is that I can't tinker with it and I am therefore forced to rely on sailing skill alone to go fast. So for me, the IC provides an opportunity to experiment, which is fun in itself, at the risk of looking like an idiot.

 

As mentioned by others, often a good idea can be lost through less than optimal implementation. Moths would not be on foils now if people hadn't persevered after the initial failures.

 

Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Having a stronger stiffer hull I think is a better investment, than a gadget thats been tried before and found to be of no real benefit. When people from different corners of the world doing their own thing come up with such similar conclusions I figure there is something in that.

 

But Hayden, where's the fun in doing what everyone else does? Of course I fully agree that if the objective is to win races, then the more conservative approach is best, i.e. use the best proven technology and train hard. However, I'm firstly a designer and tinkerer, and winning races is not my prime objective. Actually, my other boat is a Laser, and what I like about the Laser is that I can't tinker with it and I am therefore forced to rely on sailing skill alone to go fast. So for me, the IC provides an opportunity to experiment, which is fun in itself, at the risk of looking like an idiot.

 

As mentioned by others, often a good idea can be lost through less than optimal implementation. Moths would not be on foils now if people hadn't persevered after the initial failures.

 

Cheers.

 

To not just follow the masses is part of why I sail Canoe's and its fun to tinker with idea's I have a shed half full of them would be full if I didn't clear them out every so often :).

 

I just thought i'd mention about my experience so you could decided if it still something you want to tinker with being that its not a cheaper thing to do. Considering that Chris, Any P, Colin Brown, John Ellis and myself at the very least ( I think there are some others I can't remember) have all had a crack at it. Im happy that my implementation was sound having used the exact same system and foils... the I14's used therefore a guage to measure from. Having seen the quality Chris keeps producing I'd guess his system would have made mine look agricultural.

 

But by all means think outside the square have a shot and prove foiled rudders work on a canoe. Like you mention having a tinker is all part of the fun. I look foward to seeing your idea's on the water in the near future :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sailed level, the board gave noticeable lift, and the boat was fast reaching.

However, tacking or light winds were very wobbly, with the hull flopping over very quickly from one cant angle to the other side. Running was almost impossible unless the board was locked.

 

I had thought about this problem. Again, a rudder foil goes some way towards rectifying this by gaining back some of the roll inertia lost by letting the centreboard go floppy. I have also thought about a damping system, as alluded too by atypicalguy in an earlier post. I think it may be possible to use a continuous multi part block system to slow the movement of the centreboard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a thought that I feel like sharing.

The first is that if you use the rudder foil to manage trim and sea keeping, then you can further reduce the water plane and flare. This should produce some drag reductions that will offset the wetted area of the foil and the induced drag of the foil.

You may be able to use a "not so very" movable seat carriage for generic trim and let the foil take care of the rest.

So plunking a foil on the rudder of a hull hat doesn't need one would certainly be slow, you have to see what efficiencies can be gained by eliminating what the foil makes redundant.

At first blush, Tin Tear Drop looked like that hull. Maybe the ends have to be still pointier?

SHC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have a thought that I feel like sharing.

The first is that if you use the rudder foil to manage trim and sea keeping, then you can further reduce the water plane and flare. This should produce some drag reductions that will offset the wetted area of the foil and the induced drag of the foil.

You may be able to use a "not so very" movable seat carriage for generic trim and let the foil take care of the rest.

So plunking a foil on the rudder of a hull hat doesn't need one would certainly be slow, you have to see what efficiencies can be gained by eliminating what the foil makes redundant.

At first blush, Tin Tear Drop looked like that hull. Maybe the ends have to be still pointier?

SHC

 

Better yet put a bow wand on the thing and let it control the angle of dangle. That would be sort of cool and thoughtless - in the good sense of the term.

 

Damp the cant! I have the dampers. I will sell them to you.

 

I have been blogging this up for kicks: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/downloa...o/6274/talk/492

 

It has a short vid of what I am running on the moth, but on a kite/cat thingy going somewhere pretty darned fast. Just offered because I know canoe sailors like this kind of stuff.

 

On another topic, I emailed Chris earlier about sticking the bow in on reaches. I sailed Mayhem over last weekend in some breeze and was struck by how fast it went until I immersed the knuckle. At reaching speed, this throws a huge amount of water up the sides of the bow which seems to generate lots of drag for whatever reason. I had noted the same phenomenon on Lust Puppet.

 

So I was thinking, why not put a step into the bow way down by the knuckle to release that flow from the sides of the boat.

 

I'm sure someone has thought of this before but just wanted to get the wisdom of the group on why it is a stupid idea.

 

KW

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have a thought that I feel like sharing.

The first is that if you use the rudder foil to manage trim and sea keeping, then you can further reduce the water plane and flare. This should produce some drag reductions that will offset the wetted area of the foil and the induced drag of the foil.

You may be able to use a "not so very" movable seat carriage for generic trim and let the foil take care of the rest.

So plunking a foil on the rudder of a hull hat doesn't need one would certainly be slow, you have to see what efficiencies can be gained by eliminating what the foil makes redundant.

At first blush, Tin Tear Drop looked like that hull. Maybe the ends have to be still pointier?

SHC

 

Yeah well that was the idea - very pointy ends, very pintail stern, any support needed to prevent squatting from the T foil, upwind lift to keep the bow in from the T foil, pitch reduction from the T foil, allowing full power reaching due to the t foil..... This works fine on moths, but the length / beam of the IC is different - longer, more stability, but twice the beam, and not as pointy.

It's not that it didn't work, just that it didn't work in the way I wanted it to, and when I wanted it to. A bit like sharing the steering wheel on a car, it feels wrong!

 

Rapid easy adjustment may yet make it work.... a wand dangly thing yes!

 

My boat has low chines and vertical topsides, so the water just goes up and down, not out. ( like cat hulls ), but seems fastest with the stem just in. It doesn't slow down much with the water up to the top of the stem , but if it goes over the foredeck I do ease off a bit.

Or maybe it just doesn't lift enough at speed to 'plane'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Karl,

When we all sailed each other's canoes after the McCrae WC it was clear to most that String Theory and Hollow Log went through waves without drag, while Mayhem, Josie and others needed to have the bow go over the waves or get very draggy. The fine bow boats go more like cat hulls. Look on IC forum for various reports.

Cat hull designers worked this out in the 1960s when the fine bow boats consistantly beat the fat bowed boats, The moth class found out in the 90s when Andy Patterson made the first really narrow moth. The result is no fat bow cats or moths anymore. There seems no need for fat bow canoes either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Karl,

When we all sailed each other's canoes after the McCrae WC it was clear to most that String Theory and Hollow Log went through waves without drag, while Mayhem, Josie and others needed to have the bow go over the waves or get very draggy. The fine bow boats go more like cat hulls. Look on IC forum for various reports.

Cat hull designers worked this out in the 1960s when the fine bow boats consistantly beat the fat bowed boats, The moth class found out in the 90s when Andy Patterson made the first really narrow moth. The result is no fat bow cats or moths anymore. There seems no need for fat bow canoes either.

 

Ok but how much fatter is a josie or a mayhem up front than your boat? String theory is skinnier I'll give you that, but I'm thinking freeboard has as much to do with it as wetted surface goes up dramatically when the knuckle hits..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Phil neglects to point out that in 1999 the A cats started going in the other direction when the Flyers were introduced.

Forward waterlines and beam was increased to create more waterplane inertia and reduce pitching.

To Karl's point, topsides clearly count as wetted surface. All sorts of things go wrong when the bow stuffs. The wetted surface grows, the waterlines get blunter, the waterplane gets shorter, which increases the displacement/ length ratio ( bad) and reduces the waterplane inertia ( also bad.)

SHC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It looks to me like a skinny IC bow is comparable to a fat A cat bow so I am not sure how much the lessons learned in A cats , or moths for that matter, help with IC design.

 

I would have thought an increase in waterplane inertia forward might tend to increase pitching. Do I have that wrong?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, like Chris I think a Flyer is still a lot sharper than any canoe. I still do not understand the raked bow on the A's, it seems to make the waterline blunter the deeper it goes. The deck being narrower than the bottom might balance this out but I would have thought having the stem vertical and narrow waterline angles up high would be even better for wave passing? Hence the pinched in topsides on Hollow Log.

But narrow topsides also means that the rate of increase in volume with depression is much less than a full bow, and if that is what Steve means by inertia, my interpretation is that is a reduction not an increase. My understanding of hobby horsing theory goes back to 12m AC yachts in the 60s when the Poms had a boat with long overhang and V bow sections which bucked all over the course while the US boat with plumb bow and topsides passed waves with ease.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My approach to designing for a rudder foil is shown in the following images:

 

post-3095-1238287804_thumb.jpg

post-3095-1238287890_thumb.jpg

post-3095-1238287916_thumb.jpg

post-3095-1238287959_thumb.jpg

 

The design is reasonably conservative, but I've used a wide keel plank forward to increase the forward waterplane area low down, while attempting to keep the waterlines further up the stem fairly narrow. The wider waterplane area forward moves the LCF forward, which increases the righting arm for the foil. This in turn means that a smaller foil or reduced foil angle can be used, which reduces the foil drag.

 

The hull design is usually a compromise between speed and seakeeping. From my model yacht experience (admittedly), it seems that the rudder foil allows you to 'dial in' the running trim required, and makes the boat very pitch stable. So it should be possible to go much more radical than the design shown here with regard to reducing reserve bouyancy forward.

 

Having a fixed seat carriage allows for more efficient transfer of torsional loads to the rig support structure, which hopefully results in a lighter structure overall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My approach to designing for a rudder foil is shown in the following images:

 

post-3095-1238287804_thumb.jpg

post-3095-1238287890_thumb.jpg

post-3095-1238287916_thumb.jpg

post-3095-1238287959_thumb.jpg

 

The design is reasonably conservative, but I've used a wide keel plank forward to increase the forward waterplane area low down, while attempting to keep the waterlines further up the stem fairly narrow. The wider waterplane area forward moves the LCF forward, which increases the righting arm for the foil. This in turn means that a smaller foil or reduced foil angle can be used, which reduces the foil drag.

 

Conservative compared to what?

 

I remember that with the t-foil pitching was very much reduced. It made for an entirely different and wetter ride.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hasn't Jim Antrim done something like this on one of his new open designs? Chines in back too.

 

Iphone message

 

Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites