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and whats thoose black bits on the port side of Willys boat?

Unpainted repairs. A pretty big nomex delam as the result of a fairly violent crash, I think.

Willy is generally stronger than most things he hits.

And that is not anything about being hard headed.

SHC

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Kenny,

The canoes are committed to coming west next year for North Americans. However, we have not decided between Richmond YC or the Gorge. Either way I hope to see you there and at Sugar.

 

Christian,

There is more video and some truly priceless pictures. Tommy currently has her hands on them and they should be posted to the US website in short order. We'll also post the links on SA. I believe Del also has some more video of us racing on thursday. I think Chris Moore took some video on Del's camera but I am not sure. Tommy was even brave enough to let us do some in the water fly bys after we had finished racing on Thursday. The resulting pictures and video are pretty awesome.

 

Bill,

If you want to get out to Sugar Island the place to go is Misty Isles Lodge. They run a water taxi back and forth from the island. Wish you could have made it out, seen us sailing up close, and maybe even gone for a boat ride.

 

In regards to the patch on my boat I was kind of hoping no one would notice....... fail. As Dad said me hitting something hard usually results in bits of said thing breaking away. Actually the ironic thing is that the delam happened barely a week after I had put a brand new coat of paint on the boat. FML! Anyway, we had a truly awesome week of sailing and, despite Chris being pretty much dominant, the racing was very tight and competitive. We had ten boats, and seven different designs all of which were competitive at different times. I hope to see even more boats there next time. Anyone who didn't make it really missed out. A full regatta report will be in the fall edition of the Canoesletter.

 

Check the website for a regatta report on nationals within the next couple of days.

 

best,

 

Willy

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It's about time I did this.

 

Results from Sugar Island -

 

Sunday -

 

"Around the Island Race" -

 

1 Chris Maas - Angel of Attacks

2 Del Olsen - Donkey

3 Willy Clark - Kaito

4 Sam Moore - Blue Meanie

5 Chris Moore - Wonk

6 John Kells - Mayhem

DNF David Clark - Alice (tried to go between Island 47 and Sugar. Hit a rock)

 

Monday-

Blown out, way too aggressive conditions

 

Tuesay -

Crane Trophy

 

1 Chris Maas - Angel of Attack

2 Oliver Moore - Uncle Walter

3 Chris Moore - Wonk

4 John Kells - Mayhem

5 Bill Beaver - Lust Puppet

6 Willy Clark - Kaito

DNF Del Olsen - Donkey

 

Championship Series

R1

1 Chris Maas - Angel of Attack

2 Oliver Moore - Uncle Walter

3 John Kells - Mayhem

4 Del Olsen - Donkey

5 Chris Moore - Wonk

6 Bill Beaver - Lust Puppet

7 Willy Clark - Kaito

DNS Sam Moore - Blue Meanie

DNS David Clark - Alice

DNS George Saunders - Mostly Harmless

 

Wednesday -

Mermaid Trophy

 

1 Chris Maas - Angel of Attack

2 Del Olsen - Donkey

3 Oliver Moore - Uncle Walter

4 John Kells - Mayhem

5 Willy Clark - Kaito

6 Chris Moore - Wonk

7 David Clark - Alice

8 Sam Moore - Blue Meanie

 

Championship Series

R2

1 Chris Maas - Angel of Attack

2 Del Olsen - Donkey

3 John Kells - Mayhem

4 Oliver Moore - Uncle Walter

5 Chris Moore - Wonk

6 Willy Clark - Kaito

7 David Clark - Alice

8 Sam Moore - Blue Meanie

DNS Bill Beaver - Lust Puppet

DNS George Saunders - Mostly Harmless

 

Thursday -

"Around the Island Race Mach 2"

1 Oliver Moore - Uncle Walter

2 Sam Moore - Blue Meanie

3 Bill Beaver - Lust Puppet

4 Willy Clark - Kaito

5 David Clark - Alice

6 Chris Moore - Wonk

 

Butler Trophy

1 Oliver Moore - Uncle Walter

2 Chris Maas - Angel of Attack

3 John Kells - Mayhem

4 Willy Clark - Kaito

5 Bill Beaver - Lust Puppet

6 David Clark - Wonk

7 Del Olsen - Donkey

DNF Sam Moore - Blue Meanie

DNS Chris Moore (cut his foot during the 2nd Around the Island race)

 

Championship Series

R3

1 Chris Maas - Angel of Attack

2 Willy Clark - Kaito

3 Bill Beaver - Lust Puppet

4 Del Olsen - Donkey

5 John Kells Mayhem

6 David Clark - Wonk

DNF Oliver Moore- Uncle Walter

DNS Sam Moore - Blue Meanie

DNS Chris Moore

DNS George Saunders - Mostly Harmless

 

Friday - No wind = No Racing

 

Finals Championship result

1 Chris Maas - 1 1 1 - 3 pts

2 Del Olsen - 4 2 4 - 10 pts

3 John Kells - 3 3 5 - 11 pts

4 Willy Clark - 7 6 2 - 15 pts

5 Oliver Moore - 2 4 DNF - 17 pts*

6 Chris Moore - 5 5 DNF - 21 pts

7 Bill Beaver - 6 DNS 5 - 23 pts

8 David Clark - DNS 7 6 - 25 pts

9 Sam Moore - DNS 8 DNS - 30 pts

10 George Saunders - DNC

 

* I scored DNFs as one more than the number of registered boats mainly because it meant I beat Oliver (haha) however, if instead you score a DNF as one more than the number of boats that finished the scoring after the top 3 gets reshuffled

 

We also raced informally for the Lysak Cup, also known as the "Morning Series." An actually trophy dedicated to the memory of Steve Lysak has been donated by Kim Clark and will be awarded to the winner of next years morning series.

 

I apologize for the extreme length of this post but, I felt that it was important.

 

best,

 

Willy

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Yee freakin haa, how cool are these boats!

 

I just got back from my very first sail in an IC. It was my AUS 33 "Magic Carpet Ride" and it was her very first sail too. I was stoked with how it went! Breeze was only 5 knots with puffs to 8 maybe. I was surprised with the stability, I was expecting it to be much tippier. I guess once I get into waves and stronger winds it will be different. I'm not convinced that the vectran rigging will work in the end. Since it's a una rig I don't need heaps of rig tension but after about an hour of sailing the boat felt wobbily while tacking as the rig had streched in a bit.

 

The boat felt comfortable underfoot but I was cheating a bit. I didn't bother with sliding the seat across all the time, just centered it and sat out. I need some more tell tales as the cambered sail didn't give much feedback on pointing and I think I was pointing too high, but once I came off the wind the boat took off. I know you are always fast when sailing by yourself but I recon I was doing at least better than windspeed while running back to the club.

 

I know the sailing anarchy rule of "pictures or it didn't happen" but this was a super secret first sail. I didn't tell anyone I was going incase it was a dismal failure and the boat needed to be burnt in a hurry but happily it was a success, for me anyway. I'll be out on the weekend and hopefully get the wife to take some shots from her dinghy (if she can keep up :lol: )

 

All in all a great session of sailing...

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Excellent news!

Glad you like your boat.

I would run away from Vectran rigging as fast as you can.

Personally I have a fondness for stainless steel rod.

This may also be because I have close to a lifetime supply due to purchase minimums...

Not that it was that bad, I had to buy $100 of each size I needed, and that turned into hundreds of meters of the stuff.

Making the terminals work is a trick, but you get something that is lighter than 1x19 and stretches not at all.

SHC

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i'm currently balls deep tarting up a 30 year old solo (not the swift kind), i'm hacking out bits of rotten ply, patching a leaky centerboard case, trying to ignore the skanky solid ply rudder blade thats more whittled than shaped and I'm trying to fair a hull thats so lumpy trench warfare could break out any minute. This is the kind of work to make a man question his sanity but having just spent 2 days reading this thread cover to cover i'm totally fired up again on my boat hacking missions!

 

the boats you lot sail and build are ridiculous, i've done a couple of white wee wee's perving at the pictures (i'm not proud of this)

 

once i've cleaned myself up i'm back to a damp and dreary garage with the leaky roof to carry on bringing a shit boat back to life.., reason? i gotta start somewhere if i'm to becoming a boat building jedi. hopefully this thread will still be running in 20 years or so when i got skills!

 

keep up the good work

 

timmay xx

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i'm currently balls deep tarting up a 30 year old solo (not the swift kind), i'm hacking out bits of rotten ply, patching a leaky centerboard case, trying to ignore the skanky solid ply rudder blade thats more whittled than shaped and I'm trying to fair a hull thats so lumpy trench warfare could break out any minute. This is the kind of work to make a man question his sanity but having just spent 2 days reading this thread cover to cover i'm totally fired up again on my boat hacking missions!

 

the boats you lot sail and build are ridiculous, i've done a couple of white wee wee's perving at the pictures (i'm not proud of this)

 

once i've cleaned myself up i'm back to a damp and dreary garage with the leaky roof to carry on bringing a shit boat back to life.., reason? i gotta start somewhere if i'm to becoming a boat building jedi. hopefully this thread will still be running in 20 years or so when i got skills!

 

keep up the good work

 

timmay xx

 

Greetings young Jedi,

What is the name and sail number of the boat you have acquired. As Canousletter Editor it is my responsibility to keep track of what boats exhist and who own them. I'm glad you are having some fun.

 

best,

 

Willy

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i'm currently balls deep tarting up a 30 year old solo (not the swift kind), i'm hacking out bits of rotten ply, patching a leaky centerboard case, trying to ignore the skanky solid ply rudder blade thats more whittled than shaped and I'm trying to fair a hull thats so lumpy trench warfare could break out any minute. This is the kind of work to make a man question his sanity but having just spent 2 days reading this thread cover to cover i'm totally fired up again on my boat hacking missions!

 

the boats you lot sail and build are ridiculous, i've done a couple of white wee wee's perving at the pictures (i'm not proud of this)

 

once i've cleaned myself up i'm back to a damp and dreary garage with the leaky roof to carry on bringing a shit boat back to life.., reason? i gotta start somewhere if i'm to becoming a boat building jedi. hopefully this thread will still be running in 20 years or so when i got skills!

 

keep up the good work

 

timmay xx

 

Greetings young Jedi,

What is the name and sail number of the boat you have acquired. As Canousletter Editor it is my responsibility to keep track of what boats exhist and who own them. I'm glad you are having some fun.

 

best,

 

Willy

 

Hi Willy

 

I'm afraid i'm living vicariously through this post about IC's, the boat i'm renovating is an old school UK Solo (jack holt stylee) and i'm guessing you don't need the name and sail number for it?! Hopefully one day I'll be able to provide you with a name and a sail number for a IC, but i fear that's a few years away!

 

cheers for showing an interest

 

tim

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Greetings muckypuffin it seems that you have found out that this is the greatest thread on the whole site. Please don't tell anyone or it might get spoiled.

Oh, by the way "fuck offbie", don't worry it's just a tradition.

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post-16686-1252521436_thumb.jpg

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K. Austin dropped down from Canada for some two boat tuning. Bob Lewis also made a cameo appearance to pick up his new IC and sail for a day.

 

I have nothing earth shattering to report. It was pretty light wind - we tied on a jib boom one day and might have seen some improvement in offwind speed. Also, we messed around with jib shapes. It is amazing how critical the shape of the top of the jib seems to be. It is easy to have too much camber up there. We built a monofilm jib one evening but it, alas, was not recognizible as a sail when we were done. You sailmakers have my respect.

 

Kenny sports a Bieker I14 rudder as his daggerboard. We couldn't see a difference in performance between our boards except that mine, which is about 10% smaller and a thin - 8%- section, seems to need a moment of close reaching after a tack till it feels comfortable about going upwind again.

 

One suprising thing was how a couple of thin strands of weed on the bow will slow the boat noticably - sailing next to a nearly identical boat really highlighted this. I wish I didn't know about this as it is not easy to get weed off the stem - it's not as if you can reach up there.

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One suprising thing was how a couple of thin strands of weed on the bow will slow the boat noticably - sailing next to a nearly identical boat really highlighted this. I wish I didn't know about this as it is not easy to get weed off the stem - it's not as if you can reach up there.

Chris! An opportunity to build a kelp cutter into the stem!

Imagine that with little stectra contro lines that swipe everytime the seat tacks?

Could bring bonus points for cutting off fingers when putting the boat on the dolly.

SHC

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Did I hear that right--that the NA's next year will be either Richmond or the Gorge?

 

I wouldn't miss either of those. However, I am not sure my boat can compete. What's the outlook like on borrowing/chartering something a bit more competitive than my 1981 Nethercott? I recognize there's steals to be had everywhere on the old hulls but if I'm going to spend money on an IC I think I might as well get a nice narrow light one....and I don't think there's any of those on the market in the four-figure range...are there? Bill, need a testbed for a stich-and-glue hardchined DC I can build before then?

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Did I hear that right--that the NA's next year will be either Richmond or the Gorge?

 

I wouldn't miss either of those. However, I am not sure my boat can compete. What's the outlook like on borrowing/chartering something a bit more competitive than my 1981 Nethercott? I recognize there's steals to be had everywhere on the old hulls but if I'm going to spend money on an IC I think I might as well get a nice narrow light one....and I don't think there's any of those on the market in the four-figure range...are there? Bill, need a testbed for a stich-and-glue hardchined DC I can build before then?

 

The Canoes will be on the west coast for NAs next year. As far as chartering or borrowing a new rules boat, that is tricky. Most of the new rules boats are new enough that their owners are still in love with them and thus there are not many new loaner boats available. But, there may be new rules boats available depending on who is able to attend the event.

 

The predominant American builder at this point is Chris Maas and I believe the price a new Maas boat is not in the four figure range. However, if you were to buy just the bare hull and finish it yourself the price drops considerably. The other inexpensive option is the Australian flatpack technique.

 

boats can be made available to people who want them.

 

best,

 

Willy

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The other inexpensive option is the Australian flatpack technique.

 

The Flatpack is a good option, which (if I stop crashing into Fireballs) should start getting some good results under it's belt. It's definitely worth looking at especially if you have a rig you can drop onto it (saves some cash and helps you dial it in sooner).

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If you have the ability to build there are plenty of designs available from various people posting on this thread which allows some personal tweaking and will save you many $$$. Also I saved a heap with my new boat by taking all the rigging, foils, plank etc from my Nethercott all I needed to build was a hull and new carriage, so far it feels competitive.

 

Did I hear that right--that the NA's next year will be either Richmond or the Gorge?

 

I wouldn't miss either of those. However, I am not sure my boat can compete. What's the outlook like on borrowing/chartering something a bit more competitive than my 1981 Nethercott? I recognize there's steals to be had everywhere on the old hulls but if I'm going to spend money on an IC I think I might as well get a nice narrow light one....and I don't think there's any of those on the market in the four-figure range...are there? Bill, need a testbed for a stich-and-glue hardchined DC I can build before then?

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A few photos from yesterday. you can see me cheating in light winds with the centered seat( middle photo, sorry about the plumbers crack :D) . Later in the day I was actually climbing out on the seat with it extended, YeeHaa. First race today...

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A few photos from yesterday. you can see me cheating in light winds with the centered seat( middle photo, sorry about the plumbers crack :D) . Later in the day I was actually climbing out on the seat with it extended, YeeHaa. First race today...

 

Looking good, keep us posted on how the first race goes

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Website is back up and Tommy should be posting some pictures and video to it shortly. We got some awfully cool video/stills at Sugar Island and it is long overdue for the website.

 

best,

 

Willy

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May seem an ignorant question, but with a focus on the measurements that apply at the BMS station - between 1300mm and 2600mm forward of the stern - the widest beam of the hull and the relationship of thevertical measurements of 100mm and 275mm/750mm min width - what or where is the BMS location considered to be when from a shroud/sidestay attachment point aft the beam could be constant to accomodate a carriage track.

Would the 750mm min. width apply back aftwards to the 1300mm mark? <_<

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May seem an ignorant question, but with a focus on the measurements that apply at the BMS station - between 1300mm and 2600mm forward of the stern - the widest beam of the hull and the relationship of thevertical measurements of 100mm and 275mm/750mm min width - what or where is the BMS location considered to be when from a shroud/sidestay attachment point aft the beam could be constant to accomodate a carriage track.

Would the 750mm min. width apply back aftwards to the 1300mm mark? <_<

 

The maximum beam does not need to be at the Beam Measurement Station. The hull can be wider at another location. The rule dictates that at the at the Beam Measurement Station that the hull meets minimum width & depth.

 

The trade off is that the farther back the BMS, the finer the hull can be forward, but to do this, you must accept a taller free board aft.

 

I hope that this helps.

 

John K

IC

USA-244

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My boat is basically parallel from the shoud base back to about 500mm from the stern to give me a nice long area to mount the carriage track but now I think that it's a bit too extreme. When I do another hull I probably won't run the track as far back.

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May seem an ignorant question, but with a focus on the measurements that apply at the BMS station - between 1300mm and 2600mm forward of the stern - the widest beam of the hull and the relationship of thevertical measurements of 100mm and 275mm/750mm min width - what or where is the BMS location considered to be when from a shroud/sidestay attachment point aft the beam could be constant to accomodate a carriage track.

Would the 750mm min. width apply back aftwards to the 1300mm mark? <_<

 

As I understand it the BMS is any ONE place between 1300mm and 2600mm where the hull complies with those three (100mm/275mm/750mm) measurements. The hull can be wider or narrower fore and aft of the BMS as long as it complies with the hollows rule.

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My boat is basically parallel from the shoud base back to about 500mm from the stern to give me a nice long area to mount the carriage track but now I think that it's a bit too extreme. When I do another hull I probably won't run the track as far back.

 

Thanks MCR.

 

I have watched with interest your posts and the "god's eye view" shows your parallel gunwhale/track situation well. I note your comment regarding the next hull and not extending your hull width so far aft.

 

Tell me more about your North sail. Yes it is a una rig and thus would be the

full10 sq. metres. Do you feel that the main only enables the boat to go about as well as a jib and main? How do you deal with the lowering requirement when on water? Which North outlet did you go to?

 

Thanks JT HI

 

 

 

 

Thanks JT HI

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G'day JT

 

The mainsail is more like 11SqM as you get an allowance for the fullness of the sail and an extra allowance for the luff sock. I can't remember the actual numbers but they are spelled out in the rules. I have a zipper running down the side of my luff sleve so I can remove the mainsail from along side without de-rigging the mast.

 

Now that I'm a six times veteran of sailing my boat :lol: I feel that I have a 100% handle on how these boats work (not!). I find that I have plenty on just tacking the boat without worrying about tacking the jib but I miss being able to back the jib to help the bow around in more breeze. In the moderate stuff it's nor so much of an issue. I'll have more info in a few weeks when I go up against the current world champion and a few other guys in our first regatta of the year.

 

The mainsail was build by me when I was a sail designer for North Sails Sydney and is basically a development of some of my previous Moth sails melded with some overseas Moth sails and our 18' skiff stuff, definitely a one off.

 

As I said, more info in a few weeks....

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Good stuff, any more for us to enjoy?

 

Just sorting through some other Sugar Island vids. Willy, is this you?

 

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Hi Peeps

 

After blowing the dust off the winter project (to many home improvements being done) I have lost some

where in my head if the new "V" seats that have been built over the last year have any strengthening on the lower face f the seat at its outer edge and if so what sort of size has been used and I presume it to be hardwood

 

Adrian

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Hey guys

I have been contacted by a woman looking for any info about her dad, Adolf Morse, who used to sail ICs out of Sugar Island and City Island in the 40s 50s and 60s. Anyone got anything? I think I vaguely recall seeing those names on some of the Sugar trophies. Chris Maas, could you take a look?

Tommy

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Good stuff, any more for us to enjoy?

 

Just sorting through some other Sugar Island vids. Willy, is this you?

 

 

Oh Karl, thats downright mean!

 

I thought you guys might know who it was; I don't recognize them but it looks like it might be someone at Sugar? Anyway sorry if I hurt Willy's feelings; I thought he was secure enough to take some ribbing...

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Caption contest! Have at it folks.

 

 

Willys head over heals or is that arse over tit about Canoes.

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Hey guys

I have been contacted by a woman looking for any info about her dad, Adolf Morse, who used to sail ICs out of Sugar Island and City Island in the 40s 50s and 60s. Anyone got anything? I think I vaguely recall seeing those names on some of the Sugar trophies. Chris Maas, could you take a look?

Tommy

 

Adolf Morse won the Crane Trophy in 1955, '56, '59 and '60 sailing Nymph III.

 

He won the Challenge Cup in 1949 sailing Nymph II and in '57 in Nymph III.

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I think there is more than one Sugar Island.

The one we care about is in the St Lawrence River off Gananoque Ontario.

Adolf Morse was ona of the better american IC sailors of his era. He and Lou Whitman trasveled to England to challenge for the NY cup in 1946 or 1947 and didn't win. Lou came back in 1948 with MananaII and won. Adolf may have been on the defending team in 1956 and 1958, I'm not sure.

His name came up a lot in conversation with the old guys in the mid 70s. Always with respect and affection. This was not all that common. Those guys often had more bad to say than good about many people.

SHC

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Hey guys

I have been contacted by a woman looking for any info about her dad, Adolf Morse, who used to sail ICs out of Sugar Island and City Island in the 40s 50s and 60s. Anyone got anything? I think I vaguely recall seeing those names on some of the Sugar trophies. Chris Maas, could you take a look?

Tommy

 

 

I have a few photos, might be of interest. Adolf Morse was part of the 1955 team in the NYCC cup against the Brits. Two left hand photos are sailing during the event. The top right is the US team, Adolf Morse, Lou Whitman, Frank Jordeans and Joey Ferrugia. Bottom right the British team, Ron Head, John Stothert, Graham Goodson and Bill Kempner. I included these photos in the history (of British Canoe sailing) which I wrote some years ago. This info came from Ron Head who has a gret photo archive for the 1950s. Can see more pictures on Flickr, or if you want the history see my website, http://andrew-eastwood.com.

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And another one.

 

"Daves Parking on the startline technique still needs some refinement"

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hey Cats,

should we attempt to be included in the Columbia Gorge One Design Regatta, which last summer was on July 24th?

or did some of you want to just blast around there before or after the proposed Nationals at Richmond?

 

here's the sailing association's link : http://www.cgra.org/

 

cheers, Kenny

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hey Cats,

should we attempt to be included in the Columbia Gorge One Design Regatta, which last summer was on July 24th?

or did some of you want to just blast around there before or after the proposed Nationals at Richmond?

 

here's the sailing association's link : http://www.cgra.org/

 

cheers, Kenny

 

Kenny,

I would highly recommend that you west coast guys add this event to your calendar. I see no reason to not jump at the chance to sail in the gorge.

 

However, right now the intention is to have NAs in late June. Class consensus was that was best time for the most people. As a result the east coasters will probably be back east by then. However, I would highly recommend you west coasters add it to your racing schedule. It sounds like a blast! I'm sure that any right coasters that are still left on the 24th will jump at the chance.

 

best,

 

Willy

 

PS there is also the question of whether we qualify as a one design class any more? However, I sincerely hope no one answers that as it may lead to us no longer getting invited to one design regattas.

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PS there is also the question of whether we qualify as a one design class any more?

As far as I can see in the US the definition of one design includes any boat under twenty five feet long without lead: I14s and the like are regularly described as such. Bizarre...

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PS there is also the question of whether we qualify as a one design class any more?

As far as I can see in the US the definition of one design includes any boat under twenty five feet long without lead: I14s and the like are regularly described as such. Bizarre...

 

 

hmm, at the moment the real issue might be lack of #'s to make a fleet ! might be able to get enough. mebbe I'll contact the Gorge folks and see what shakes.

cheers, K

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So as the uk season is drawing to a close is there any new builds going to happen

out there this year. my IC is still in the garage un finshed :angry: so I must get on with

it this winter along with the other work in the house

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PS there is also the question of whether we qualify as a one design class any more?

As far as I can see in the US the definition of one design includes any boat under twenty five feet long without lead: I14s and the like are regularly described as such. Bizarre...

 

 

Its not that they're One Design, it's just that they race scratch against other class boats. No handicaps.

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Mast simplicity. No doubt it has been done before but I'm thinking....... a deck stepped rotating mast, sail within a track, with a boom at the base located between two mast mounted sideplates, a bolt through holding the boom. Compression strut 'vang'

The mast stayed with side and forestays attaching at the front face of the mast to allow rotation.

Obviously spreaders would be out as rotation of mast would affect spreader length so mast control could be by diamonds.

What pros and cons are out there?

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Mast simplicity. No doubt it has been done before but I'm thinking....... a deck stepped rotating mast, sail within a track, with a boom at the base located between two mast mounted sideplates, a bolt through holding the boom. Compression strut 'vang'

The mast stayed with side and forestays attaching at the front face of the mast to allow rotation.

Obviously spreaders would be out as rotation of mast would affect spreader length so mast control could be by diamonds.

What pros and cons are out there?

 

What you suggest is all quite doable. Moths have used similar rigs for many years. They also have spreaders, which are fixed to the front of the mast at a single hinge point. So off you go and build one!

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Mast simplicity. No doubt it has been done before but I'm thinking....... a deck stepped rotating mast, sail within a track, with a boom at the base located between two mast mounted sideplates, a bolt through holding the boom. Compression strut 'vang'

The mast stayed with side and forestays attaching at the front face of the mast to allow rotation.

Obviously spreaders would be out as rotation of mast would affect spreader length so mast control could be by diamonds.

What pros and cons are out there?

 

If you dig back through this thread you will find pictures of Andy P's IC 'Tin Teardrop'. He uses the rig you describe. So does MCR33. There are some recent pictures here.

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JT

The rig Chris is thinking about rules out having a jib, or at least makes it difficult. The diamonds would have to be very short to allow the mast to rotate and rig tension is harder to achieve, but do you need it anyway? this must have been done at some time, I know that over rotating masts have been tried, I think with diamonds like you are describing.

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JT HI, Do you want a jib? That does make it harder to do doesn't it? I put a modified Taser mast on my first IC. It over rotated and was a pain to control. Fortunately it got stuck in the mud of San Francisco Bay and never sailed again. Diamonds worked ok but the shroud base on the old IC is wider.

 

It sounds like you are thinking of a mast that rotates with the boom like a Moth. Probably no aerodynamic advantage there upwind as the boom is on center line. Maybe a little better offwind. There has been a fair bit of research into rotating masts, wingmasts, separation bubbles etc. Check out Boat Design. net.

 

It might be tricky to control mast bend if you use a gnav.

 

Might be worth a try though. It may just be that no one has done it right yet.

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There has been a fair bit of research into rotating masts, wingmasts, separation bubbles etc. Check out Boat Design. net.

I am *very* unconvinced about the quality of information there on this sort of topic... very hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Non over rotating masts don't really seem to over much of an advantage at all in practice... On the overrotating thing I am sort of a fan of the idea: I've sailed with them a fair bit, and I own an original (ex Nicola) Bethwaite wooden wing mast, the precursor to the Tasar rig. They are absolute sonofabitches to get right, whereas pole masts are fairly straightforward. It seems pretty clear that no-one has really ever managed to gain anything like the performance advantages from "short" (say under 6 inch chord) wing masts that simplistic analysis would seem to suggest are available, and I've seen, although I can't remember the source, some recent CFD analysis which suggests that pole masts don't perform nearly as badly aerodynamically as you would think they ought to. All in all my feeling is that its not at the moment a very fruitful area for experimentation unless you want to devote an awful lot of time and resources, and in that case an IC may not be the perfect platform. I've thought about it lots, especially now that NS14 carbon sections are available, but all actual work I've done recently has been on a pole mast... If you do have the time and resources and interest to spend a lot of time in developing something that may well not work then I think it could be a very interesting area, but with the passing of the years I have become less convinced rather than more that its worth me doing one on my main boat.

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Hi JT (HI?)

 

I'll be sailing this weekend and I'll take some closer photo's of what I did with my rig. There are some more on the blog. Bye for now...

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Mast simplicity/ also rule confusion.

 

Thanks to the respondants regarding 'mast simplicity' Your input has been of value.

 

Confusion. I note that -

 

A. Appendix IV Development and Measurement Rules of the International Ten Square Metre Sailing Canoe (January 2008)

 

Section 5 Hull (B) Lines of greatest beam.......indicates references to convex and concave curves, also straight lines.

 

B. Appendix IV Development and Measurement Rules of the Internatonal Ten Square Metre Sailing Canoe. (No reference date is indicated in the text)

Section 5 Hull (B) Lines of greatest beam.......makes no reference to concave, convex or straight lines.

 

Which set of rules may be regarded as the correct and current version ...... A or B?

 

Wading through all this stuff must be harder than the building and sailing part!

 

Thanks all,

 

JT. HI.

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Mast simplicity/ also rule confusion.

 

Thanks to the respondants regarding 'mast simplicity' Your input has been of value.

 

Confusion. I note that -

 

A. Appendix IV Development and Measurement Rules of the International Ten Square Metre Sailing Canoe (January 2008)

 

Section 5 Hull (B) Lines of greatest beam.......indicates references to convex and concave curves, also straight lines.

 

B. Appendix IV Development and Measurement Rules of the Internatonal Ten Square Metre Sailing Canoe. (No reference date is indicated in the text)

Section 5 Hull (B) Lines of greatest beam.......makes no reference to concave, convex or straight lines.

 

Which set of rules may be regarded as the correct and current version ...... A or B?

 

Wading through all this stuff must be harder than the building and sailing part!

 

Thanks all,

 

JT. HI.

 

Where have you found these copies of the rules (it will help in clearing up issues by removing old versions)? The ICF approved and current rules, can be found on the IC Website (www.intcanoe.org) - which is infortunately down at the moment thanks to some severe hacking! However, thanks to the UK IC sailors here is a copy of the current rules: http://www.intcanoe.org.uk/images/pdf/Form...009%20rules.pdf

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Thanks ICAUS

 

The differing rules both came from the same source www.intcanoe.org/library.

 

Google in as I have titled 'A' that includes the (2008) and it will bring up the references to convex, concave and straight.

 

Google in as I have titled 'B' which does not include (2008) and there is no reference to convex,concave and straight.

 

I checked with the UK IC site as you suggested and it is 'A' that appears.

 

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Certainley the less than correct material needs to be removed as it is misleading.

 

Turning attention now to an imaginary hull, the rules would require that a transition from a side gunwhale edge to a 45 degree (or thereabouts) transom, at deck plan level would require a radius of at least 60mm.

 

What's the situation below at the chine. Does that require a simular radius? ......or may it be a hard angular junction .........suggesting that the tranistion point, from gunwhale or sheer to chine, is a section of an inverted cone?

 

Thanks.

 

JT HI

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Thanks ICAUS

 

The differing rules both came from the same source www.intcanoe.org/library.

 

Google in as I have titled 'A' that includes the (2008) and it will bring up the references to convex, concave and straight.

 

Google in as I have titled 'B' which does not include (2008) and there is no reference to convex,concave and straight.

 

I checked with the UK IC site as you suggested and it is 'A' that appears.

 

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Certainley the less than correct material needs to be removed as it is misleading.

 

Turning attention now to an imaginary hull, the rules would require that a transition from a side gunwhale edge to a 45 degree (or thereabouts) transom, at deck plan level would require a radius of at least 60mm.

 

What's the situation below at the chine. Does that require a simular radius? ......or may it be a hard angular junction .........suggesting that the tranistion point, from gunwhale or sheer to chine, is a section of an inverted cone?

 

Thanks.

 

JT HI

 

I'll have a hunt around and see if I can get the old versions removed, as to your other questions; there is a heck of a lot of info if you trawl this thread - and I'm sure smarter guys than me can answer your tech questions pretty quickly.

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Turning attention now to an imaginary hull, the rules would require that a transition from a side gunwhale edge to a 45 degree (or thereabouts) transom, at deck plan level would require a radius of at least 60mm.

 

What's the situation below at the chine. Does that require a simular radius? ......or may it be a hard angular junction .........suggesting that the tranistion point, from gunwhale or sheer to chine, is a section of an inverted cone?

 

Thanks.

 

JT HI

 

If my interpretation is correct, the curvature rule applies to the shearline in plan view. I'm pretty sure that Chris Mass's boats have a hard point at the chine. Given the intent of the rule, I would think that as long as the hard point in the chine did not project outboard of the sheerline, then the hard point is ok. I'm not sure what the official position is, but I think that if the hard point did project outboard of the shearline, that is, if it could be seen in plan view, due to tumblehome, then it may be illegal. I'm not quite sure how Chris's boats get around the issue. In any case, a 60mm radius is not actually very big, so it is probably easy. enough to round off any offending bumps with a bit of sandpaper and filller.

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You will note that the rule says "Line of greatest beam" not gunwale or chine.

What happens on Chris's boat and others with "pointy transoms" is that the line of maximum bean ceases to be the gunwales and starts to become the chine at the transom. So it actually runs down the topsides/transom transition. It is very easy to make this a 60mm radius. Just a little forward rake to the transom is just about all you need.

The rule is there to make sure that blips ( like where he hull is flared in the area of chain plates) are rounded off enough so people don't put an eye out when they fall on the boat.....

On your other point, follow the boom rotation was very common 30 years ago. It was common for masts to have large enough cross sections to not require spreaders or diamonds. That and the height of the hounds was pretty critical. Lou Whitman and others were very aggressive in making wood masts that they tuned with planes such that the matched the luff curves of their mainsails beautifully and were also tuned to their weight such that the gust response was perfect.

This was in the early 70s.....

I had a mast that rotated with the boom that I added swing spreaders to because it wasn't stiff enough, and I also built a version of the moth proder that had a jumper stay instead of hooking up to the fore stay. There was nothing particularly wrong with those rigs, but there was also nothing particularly brilliant about them either.

People have a hard time understanding ICs in general, so I tend to limit the number of back flips their minds have to do just to keep them attached to the conversation.

SHC

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Thanks SHC for the explanation re 'Line of greatest beam'. Funny how one can get hooked into a fixed vision and not see something else. :rolleyes: Mast info from you and others appreciated.

An older and wiser JT HI

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Hey, Ive been really lax on the website lately but I was going to try to get a little blurb about the HPDO over columbus day weekend. Who actually went, tho? John, did you?

Tommy

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On measurement; I have a slight problem of my bow joining with a slight concave (about 5mm deep measured in a straight line back from the bow) will this measure or not? - curious.

 

Cheers

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On measurement; I have a slight problem of my bow joining with a slight concave (about 5mm deep measured in a straight line back from the bow) will this measure or not? - curious.

 

Cheers

 

How many concaves do you have? You can have 1 concavity per side over a length of 1000mm max 100mm deep on plan view that is. Does that help?

 

Good to hear of some more progress, do you have some more pics to share?

 

c) A 1000mm straight edge set to span such a concavity fore and aft, with 0mm at the outboard tangent, shall nowhere be more than 100mm from the hull skin.

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The anti concavity rules only apply to two situations.

One is to limit the size and abruptness of shroud wings, and thus is applied to the line of greatest beam.

The other is to prevent "bumping" at the beam measurement station (BMS).

So there can be hollows in topsides, chines or bottom panel as long as they are 1 meter forward or 1 meter aft of the BMS.

I doubt you have any hollows worth mentioning in the line of greatest beam.

Get er done!

SHC

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Cheers guys

 

The build is stumbling along from a combination of factors: preparing for OK worlds in Feb, keeping work afloat and wife is pregnant...again. I have got someone interested in NZL2 (nethercott) so once I'm done we should have a couple of boats to play together. Have also got a set of (nethercott) plans down to a prospect in Christchurch (tried to get him to build to new rules but he wants a kite) - we may triple the fleet in the next 12 months!

 

Pardo

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The anti concavity rules only apply to two situations.

One is to limit the size and abruptness of shroud wings, and thus is applied to the line of greatest beam.

The other is to prevent "bumping" at the beam measurement station (BMS).

So there can be hollows in topsides, chines or bottom panel as long as they are 1 meter forward or 1 meter aft of the BMS.

I doubt you have any hollows worth mentioning in the line of greatest beam.

Get er done!

SHC

 

 

Aaaaaaghhhh, you mean I didn't have to rebuild my carriage rail supports??? Ah well, job done now

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Cheers guys

 

The build is stumbling along from a combination of factors: preparing for OK worlds in Feb, keeping work afloat and wife is pregnant...again. I have got someone interested in NZL2 (nethercott) so once I'm done we should have a couple of boats to play together. Have also got a set of (nethercott) plans down to a prospect in Christchurch (tried to get him to build to new rules but he wants a kite) - we may triple the fleet in the next 12 months!

 

Pardo

 

Cool, plus we need to nut out some details on an NZ IC Worlds. I reckon we have the club sorted, so if I get some spare time I'll sketch out a proposal for you to go over.

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The anti concavity rules only apply to two situations.

One is to limit the size and abruptness of shroud wings, and thus is applied to the line of greatest beam.

The other is to prevent "bumping" at the beam measurement station (BMS).

So there can be hollows in topsides, chines or bottom panel as long as they are 1 meter forward or 1 meter aft of the BMS.

I doubt you have any hollows worth mentioning in the line of greatest beam.

Get er done!

SHC

 

 

Aaaaaaghhhh, you mean I didn't have to rebuild my carriage rail supports??? Ah well, job done now

 

From memory you also have a concavity at the front of the carraige rails near the chainplates cant remember exactly what? your only allowed one per side thats why you needed to do the mods.

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Cheers guys

 

The build is stumbling along from a combination of factors: preparing for OK worlds in Feb, keeping work afloat and wife is pregnant...again. I have got someone interested in NZL2 (nethercott) so once I'm done we should have a couple of boats to play together. Have also got a set of (nethercott) plans down to a prospect in Christchurch (tried to get him to build to new rules but he wants a kite) - we may triple the fleet in the next 12 months!

 

Pardo

 

Cool, plus we need to nut out some details on an NZ IC Worlds. I reckon we have the club sorted, so if I get some spare time I'll sketch out a proposal for you to go over.

 

Oh Boy !

an NZ Worlds sounds good to me in the great white north!

cheers, Kenny

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Shroud location - DC canoe. What sort of measurement seems to be 'the go' for the location of shroud anchorage points aft of the mast. I'm sure it varies and realise that people have shrouds that are adjustable but as a 'peg in the ground' figure what sort of distances are out there. Be interesting to compare main/foresail rigs against main only.

 

JT HI

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Shroud location - DC canoe. What sort of measurement seems to be 'the go' for the location of shroud anchorage points aft of the mast. I'm sure it varies and realise that people have shrouds that are adjustable but as a 'peg in the ground' figure what sort of distances are out there. Be interesting to compare main/foresail rigs against main only.

 

JT HI

 

JT HI,

 

When planning the deck & rig in my IC (DC's don't exist anymore :P ) I was more concerned with the chainplates matching the angle back from the center of the mast on the deck. I matched the angle that was on my Nethercott, and the boat is not slow.

 

The distance back will vary with the beam, with the chainplates beeing farther back on wider boats.

 

FWIW, the chainplates are 34 degrees aft of the mast on Mayhem USA-244.

 

Regards

 

John

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Shroud location - DC canoe. What sort of measurement seems to be 'the go' for the location of shroud anchorage points aft of the mast. I'm sure it varies and realise that people have shrouds that are adjustable but as a 'peg in the ground' figure what sort of distances are out there. Be interesting to compare main/foresail rigs against main only.

 

JT HI

 

For an IC, 12 inches aft of the mast.

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Hey guys

I have been contacted by a woman looking for any info about her dad, Adolf Morse, who used to sail ICs out of Sugar Island and City Island in the 40s 50s and 60s. Anyone got anything? I think I vaguely recall seeing those names on some of the Sugar trophies. Chris Maas, could you take a look?

Tommy

 

 

As a teen-ager, I used to sail out of Grant's Boat Club on City Island and knew the canoe sailors--Adolph Morse, Lou Whitman, Frank Jordaens--but only casually. For detailed memories, she should contact Fay Jordaens, Frank's wife, co-owner of Grant's, canoe sailor, and City Island historian, at FayJ1@aol.com.

Peter Belenky

 

PS: If anyone hasn't looked at Andrew Eastwood's photostream on Flickr, he should.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24499444@N05/sets/

 

2328692167_263c8de30d_o.jpg

 

The American Team, Adolf Morse, Lou Whitman, Frank Jordaens and Joey Ferrugia, 1955

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Hi all,

 

Well , it's almost upon us - Christmas that is - so here's the opportunity to share Seasons Greetings with everybody and wish them the joy of Christmas in what ever way they celebrate it.

 

My thanks to those of you have have responded to my requests for information regarding an IC build -your comments are appreciated and my knowledge bank is expanding - the build is not too far away.

 

Happy sailing - whether it be in the snow or the sun!

 

Cheers

 

JT HI

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What's all that white stuff. I went sailing yesterday on the IC and had to come in because I thought I had heat exhaustion. It's bloody steaming over here.

 

Best wished to all IC guys and also to anyone who hasn't seen the light. See ya in '10

 

Jethrow

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Scene from the front door yesterday morning. Linlithgow, Scotland

 

Even if I wanted to I couldn't get into the workshop- snow 18cm deep , temperature in workshop -3 degree C ( epoxy is snug and warm in the house) :rolleyes:

 

The developed ply job might get finished by next autumn at this rate.

 

Pics of the on-going build here - http://www.flickr.com/photos/phydaux2000/s...57622726090462/ - click on the slideshow icon top right hand side of the screen.

 

Best wishes, and seasons greetings,

 

Ian McP

 

IC gbr 253 and new build "bird on a wire"

post-15958-1261652359_thumb.jpg

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Pics of the on-going build here - http://www.flickr.com/photos/phydaux2000/s...57622726090462/ - click on the slideshow icon top right hand side of the screen.

 

Wow, Ian that is excellent. The shape looks really good. It's amazing that you can do that with plywood.

 

Is that Steve Clark's design? What is the ply thickness if you don't mind?

 

Did it take a lot of goofing around with models to figure out what shape to push it into at each stage?

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Wee- are you using a sandable filler to fair in the shape at the bottom of keel at the point where the hull goes from the plywood all the way across the bottom of the hull vs. the aft end of the plywood keel gap towards the bow? Do the chine's effect on the bottom athwartships curve help alleviate the pressure at that joint that in my model making, at least, always makes a little external bump in the plywood curve flow aft of that point?

 

Paul

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Ian,

 

Keep the post's coming, and good luck with the build. The hull shape sure does look a little familiar (GER-78)! What are your plans for the rig? One sail or two?

 

I'm a little surprised that 18 cm of snow can cause so much trouble it takes about 18" in to do the same here:)

 

Happy Holidays and wishing all a great new year!

 

Best

 

John

USA-244

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Nice pics mcp. It's amazing that the ply will take that shape with such little framing. I don't know much about canoes but the reverse sheer at the mast step looks a little unusual to me.

 

Btw jethrow - I saw you launch the other day at byra. How did the boat go? Got any pics?

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Hi Munter

 

Yeah, it's a steep learning curve. I've been neglecting the blog a bit but the sailing is a hoot so far. Feel free to come up and say G'day if you're around...

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Wee- are you using a sandable filler to fair in the shape at the bottom of keel at the point where the hull goes from the plywood all the way across the bottom of the hull vs. the aft end of the plywood keel gap towards the bow? Do the chine's effect on the bottom athwartships curve help alleviate the pressure at that joint that in my model making, at least, always makes a little external bump in the plywood curve flow aft of that point?

 

Paul

The bump in the keel is avoidable if you are careful and do two important things:

1. End the keel dart with a knife cut, then a saw cut then the curved edges coing in tangentially. I find it very important to make the transition from curve to curved V as subtle as possible. (I see that Ian has ended his dart with a round hole which will minimise splitting, but from my experience it could potentially agravate the bump problem.)

2. Spread the topsides in this area as wide as possible before doing the carbon seams so that the aft end of the seam is effectively flat, and transitions into any V as smoothly as possible. To get the sides wide enough you