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Finally photos to prove things have been happening while somewhat slower than in the past my new ride is getting much closer to hitting the water :)

post-21278-058914900 1300351703_thumb.jpg

 

Hmm... on second thought maybe it's a good thing that you don't bring that missile to the Worlds.

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That's very pointy and round, looks fast, but not going to the worlds? Shame if not

Some progress at home in the shed

post-20243-071783200 1300391091_thumb.jpg

pattern work for moulds, perhaps moulds this weekend?

post-20243-049161700 1300391133_thumb.jpg

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Dave's new ride.

Latest Maas/Stevenson hybrid by Clark

post-738-044135700 1300400194_thumb.jpg

USA 250 Code name SmokeShow

With any luck it will get wet in 6 days.

SHC

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Finally photos to prove things have been happening while somewhat slower than in the past my new ride is getting much closer to hitting the water :)

post-21278-058914900 1300351703_thumb.jpg

 

Hmm... on second thought maybe it's a good thing that you don't bring that missile to the Worlds.

 

 

That's very pointy and round, looks fast, but not going to the worlds? Shame if not

Some progress at home in the shed

post-20243-071783200 1300391091_thumb.jpg

pattern work for moulds, perhaps moulds this weekend?

 

 

I'm looking forward to getting the missile wet in the next few weeks, all going well top coat will be sprayed on next week while we finish the other parts off... mast and plank carriage has been taken from Miracle Drug.

 

Worlds?????? lost of question mark around getting there at this stage its very doubtful I'll get there but not for the want of trying just dont have the funds its that simple :(

 

 

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Dave's new ride.

Latest Maas/Stevenson hybrid by Clark

post-738-044135700 1300400194_thumb.jpg

USA 250 Code name SmokeShow

With any luck it will get wet in 6 days.

SHC

 

 

Looks great, what about your ride Steve????

 

Dave's new ride.

Latest Maas/Stevenson hybrid by Clark

post-738-044135700 1300400194_thumb.jpg

USA 250 Code name SmokeShow

With any luck it will get wet in 6 days.

SHC

 

 

Looks great, what about your ride Steve????

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Dave's new ride.

Latest Maas/Stevenson hybrid by Clark

post-738-044135700 1300400194_thumb.jpg

USA 250 Code name SmokeShow

With any luck it will get wet in 6 days.

SHC

 

 

I think I need a moment or 2 alone with this boat ;)

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Why is it whenever you guys post pictures of *your* workmanship I deeply regret having posted anything of mine?

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Why is it whenever you guys post pictures of *your* workmanship I deeply regret having posted anything of mine?

The camera lies quite a bit.

Don't worry it looks a whole lot less Gucci in the flesh.

SHC

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Dave's new ride.

Latest Maas/Stevenson hybrid by Clark

post-738-044135700 1300400194_thumb.jpg

USA 250 Code name SmokeShow

With any luck it will get wet in 6 days.

SHC

 

is this the final finish scheme? Hope so:

 

Very Wally- esque. Gorgeous.

 

Time for new wallpaper....

 

P

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Pretty close to the finished look.

There will be a cove stripe and boot stripe to hide the ugly edges of the carbon.

This may be the same grey as the non skid, but doesn't have to be.

I will let the owner decide.

And maybe even do it.

SHC

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Dave's new ride.

Latest Maas/Stevenson hybrid by Clark

post-738-044135700 1300400194_thumb.jpg

USA 250 Code name SmokeShow

With any luck it will get wet in 6 days.

SHC

 

really a nice one Steve.

 

Of course i'm interested in the differences to GER 78

 

did you change the hull shape ?

did the use of carbon outside the ply enable you to stiffen the hull wothout the foam and kevlar inside like it was done in GER78 ?

Is the foredeck carbon only or is there some thin ply under it ?

Will yo hit teh Min weight ?

 

Sorry for being such curious ...

 

Roger

GER 78

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Shape is different.

Different set of cuts and darts, they didn't woirk quite as expected, so things had to be made up on the fly.

I think after a few more tries I will have a better idea of what it is going to look like before it is finished.

This ply method really requires you to jam and improvise, which is fun as long as you can tolerate it.

I tried not using the core in the bottom, but using EPS bulkheads as per Phil Stevenson.

Didn't like the results particularly.

Don't think it's gonna make minimum weight either.

However Dave was ome for the weekend and seems happy, so it's good.

SHC

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Has anybody a rule of thumb, per the new rules, about the relative percentage (weight wise) of

 

Hull

Seat

Foils

Rig

 

Adding up to 100%, of course. Or 50kg.

 

Also, for the epoxy challenged (i.e. allergies),

 

PU glues? For dinghy that lives on a trailer and garage that is:

 

Gorilla

Titebond 2 or 3

 

Or others, if not too toxic. And thanks Steve for the tip on green resin- checking it out on some of the British Surfing sites.

 

I don't mind extruded polystyrene, as long as I don't have to melt it.

 

Using a thicker ply instead of cloth sheathing- for example, 4mm rather than 3mm, 6mm rather than sheathed 4mm, etc.

 

chine logs for 90 degree joints instead of fillets.

 

Any advice would be welcome.

 

-P

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Here are some figures I have what I have built is fairly close to these figures where it doesn't match up it because I've stuffed up or had help by a vacuum pump shitting itself...

 

 

Im not much help on the rest.....

 

 

Hull very approx 59% (includes hull, fittings, carriage and paint)

Seat 15%

Foils 7.4%

Rig 18.6% (includes mast boom and rope for all controls etc)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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That is a relief to know, as it's near my ballpark numbers so far...

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Original stressed ply Hollow Log was about 35kg for hull, 9 for seat, 6 for rig and 3 for foils. total 53 from memory. Unstayed mast was heavy, and high freeboard would have added a few kg.

No experience of PU glues.

Expanded PS foam absorbes water if the boat leaks but extruded foams start out heavier. I try to build boats which do not leak. I prefer thicker foam bulkheads of lighter material to support more ply. Coating the foam does not seem to help much with water absorption and adds a lot of weight.

3mm ply will bend to the shapes asked of it. Thicker ply will make a different shape with less round and more V and spring. Depends on your preferences.

Thin ply with interior kevlar skin seems to provide best compromise of cost, stiffness and durability.

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Original stressed ply Hollow Log was about 35kg for hull, 9 for seat, 6 for rig and 3 for foils. total 53 from memory. Unstayed mast was heavy, and high freeboard would have added a few kg.

No experience of PU glues.

Expanded PS foam absorbes water if the boat leaks but extruded foams start out heavier. I try to build boats which do not leak. I prefer thicker foam bulkheads of lighter material to support more ply. Coating the foam does not seem to help much with water absorption and adds a lot of weight.

3mm ply will bend to the shapes asked of it. Thicker ply will make a different shape with less round and more V and spring. Depends on your preferences.

Thin ply with interior kevlar skin seems to provide best compromise of cost, stiffness and durability.

 

Why Kevlar instead of carbon for the inside skin? I'm guessing because anything lighter than 200gsm carbon is super expensive?

 

I didn't know, or had forgotten, that Hollow Log was so close to minimum. That's really impressive. Was it as stiff as you'd like, globally and panel?

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Original stressed ply Hollow Log was about 35kg for hull, 9 for seat, 6 for rig and 3 for foils. total 53 from memory. Unstayed mast was heavy, and high freeboard would have added a few kg.

No experience of PU glues.

Expanded PS foam absorbes water if the boat leaks but extruded foams start out heavier. I try to build boats which do not leak. I prefer thicker foam bulkheads of lighter material to support more ply. Coating the foam does not seem to help much with water absorption and adds a lot of weight.

3mm ply will bend to the shapes asked of it. Thicker ply will make a different shape with less round and more V and spring. Depends on your preferences.

Thin ply with interior kevlar skin seems to provide best compromise of cost, stiffness and durability.

 

I have 2 lb extruded polystyrene. Were you using 1 lb expanded? I know I can get 1 lb extruded, but I wonder about compression strength and outgassing, although some are using 1 lb as bulkheads with striplanking, and a Gore Tex (tm!) valve. In surfboards. Long and Fish.

 

P

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The EPS foam I used was 11kg/m3 which is about 1 lb/cuft.

 

Kevlar is a better material for ply skins because it yields and hence takes load at a rate about the same as the ply. Carbon being much stiffer takes all the load and sometimes even fails before the ply is significantly deflected enough to start taking load. When the carbon fails the load applied instantly overloads the ply and it fails too.

Carbon makes a stiffer boat but a more fragile one. Its also easier to use and get a finish. I used carbon on the inside of the hull and kevlar inside the working deck.

 

Steve has obviously used carbon on the outside but I bet he gets one of the younger generation to do the sanding.

Good to see the new interest in the stressed ply canoe concept. It can make some nice shapes with small outlay on materials and no jig.

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More pics of what has been happening.....

post-21278-083067800 1301035844_thumb.jpg

 

post-21278-048974300 1301035895_thumb.jpg

 

First time I've painted in a proper spray both... wow amazing how much easier it makes the job, even I can get a decent finish :)

Non skid goes on the dance floor tomorrow, then Sunday start screwing fitting to the deck, now I must finish that plank asap... (its not far off at least)

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weight split seems like about

25 kg bare hull( inc paint but no fittings/ carriage)

4 kg carriage

8 kg seat

4kg foils

mast+rigging 6kg

boom 2 kg

fittings 1 kg

will be a bit more accurate when I have all these bits made

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Painting done,

 

 

post-21278-064458700 1301114036_thumb.jpg

 

 

Next photo should be a fully fitted out boat ready to sail (errr maybe still needing a plank to be finished off).

Plan is to sail at the upcoming Australian Champs and then go from there, Worlds look very doubtful at the moment it would take something from left field to make that happen.

As much as I want to have a shot at title defence I just don't know how I'll scrap the funds together to make it happen :(. I built this boat in the hope I could make it somehow...... some things just aren't meant to be I guess.

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Morrison 2 shape now off the mould and just in the process of decking.

 

 

Sigh.... Oh all the cool shit Steve Clark has to play with !!! WOWzers, that is one sexy looking shell. Well done.

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Morrison 2 shape now off the mould and just in the process of decking.

 

 

Sigh.... Oh all the cool shit Steve Clark has to play with !!! WOWzers, that is one sexy looking shell. Well done.

Wrong Steve Clark: This one is from across the pond & uses an extra E on the last name.

 

 

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+ e.

 

How sure are we this isn't just a right coast nom de plum?

 

:)

 

Years of posting to the contrary............

 

It snowed today. Forgive me.

 

Is the back end kind of like a convertible in a squall? Drive faster, and the drops don't fall on the back seat?

 

Dance Floor!

 

Paul

 

Hot boat. Me envious.

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+ e.

How sure are we this isn't just a right coast nom de plume1?

Now Concorde is out of service building two boats simultaneously on each side of the Atlantic is a bit impractical...

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Smoke on the water.

post-738-081426300 1302271034_thumb.jpg

Chasing Kaito and Willy up the beat

post-738-070459900 1302271015_thumb.jpg

And in spite of my vast bulk and some watertight integrity issues

(I didn't find and fill all the little holes)

The boat doesn't float that low.

John just managed to get a wave in between the lens and the boat in every picture.

post-738-065105700 1302271000_thumb.jpg

 

Mobile in March was pretty special.

There are things to sort out, but the first impressions are the boat is plenty quick.

SHC

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Morrison 2 shape now off the mould and just in the process of decking.

 

 

Sigh.... Oh all the cool shit Steve Clark has to play with !!! WOWzers, that is one sexy looking shell. Well done.

Wrong Steve Clark: This one is from across the pond & uses an extra E on the last name.

 

 

 

 

Yes sorry to the original Steve Clark for causing confusion. I'lll change logon name.

 

More pictures at http://www.intcanoe....ls.php?album=48

 

AngloSteve

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But He, like Mr. Lightfoot, could afford roadies known for their fabrication prowess. Or at least the ability to tune guitars backstage with a Korg TM-40.

 

:lol:

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could afford roadies known for...

I have a sudden vision of the wrong white powder being used as a filler...

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I'm getting really close to pulling the trigger on the long coming IC. :o

 

I need to find a mast (used or new) or mast manufacturer:

 

unstayed

24 to 36" bury

1 piece

Gnav

19.5'

 

I know Phil used 3 (?) sections of different diameter, but wasn't totally pleased with the weight, Finn and ok masts are heaVY and so refined to be pointless, the MegaByte mast is elegant and eye popping $$$ wise. If there are mast suppliers to some of the other unstayed single hand dinghies, they are well hidden, at least in the US/Canada, and carbon tube manufacturers will not state any specifics.

 

So do I need to go to a NA?

 

Any input at this point would be welcome. Frankly, it's a bit maddening.

 

Paul

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I'm getting really close to pulling the trigger on the long coming IC. :o

 

I need to find a mast (used or new) or mast manufacturer:

 

unstayed

24 to 36" bury

1 piece

Gnav

19.5'

 

I know Phil used 3 (?) sections of different diameter, but wasn't totally pleased with the weight, Finn and ok masts are heaVY and so refined to be pointless, the MegaByte mast is elegant and eye popping $$$ wise. If there are mast suppliers to some of the other unstayed single hand dinghies, they are well hidden, at least in the US/Canada, and carbon tube manufacturers will not state any specifics.

 

So do I need to go to a NA?

 

Any input at this point would be welcome. Frankly, it's a bit maddening.

 

Paul

 

I have a mast in my shop that was intended for an unstayed IC rig. It was designed and built by Ted Van Dusen and is owned by Erich Chase. If you're interested I'll ask him if he wants to sell it.

 

Or you could ask Ted at www.vandusenracingboats.com to build you one. Masts are also in Erich's line of work - erich@chaseboats.com.

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#1- would you ask?

 

I will email Ted- he was a Famous Finn Sailor, no?

 

I tried googling Erich earlier, no satisfaction, so thanks for the address.

 

Thanks Chris,

 

Paul

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I'm getting really close to pulling the trigger on the long coming IC. :o

 

Paul,

 

This should be interesting. :D Are you in a position to reveal your design?

 

I need to find a mast (used or new) or mast manufacturer:

 

unstayed

24 to 36" bury

1 piece

Gnav

19.5'

 

I know Phil used 3 (?) sections of different diameter, but wasn't totally pleased with the weight, Finn and ok masts are heaVY and so refined to be pointless, the MegaByte mast is elegant and eye popping $$$ wise. If there are mast suppliers to some of the other unstayed single hand dinghies, they are well hidden, at least in the US/Canada, and carbon tube manufacturers will not state any specifics.

 

So do I need to go to a NA?

 

Any input at this point would be welcome. Frankly, it's a bit maddening.

 

Paul

 

The problem with adapting an existing mast is that the IC has so much more righting moment than any other similar sized boat with an unstayed mast. Getting enough stiffness without excessive mast diameter is always going to be a problem. On 21C.H.L., Phil had to add diamonds and a forestay to reduce the bending. My preferred option would be to use a large diameter at the base, say 100mm, then taper down quickly to a set of spreaders (raked forward) at say 500mm above the deck. Thereabove the mast can be a standard section, stayed, with normal sized spreaders (also raked forward) midway between the lower spreaders and the hounds. At the bottom, the stays would attach to the mast just above the deck bearing. Sort of a double spreader diamond stay setup. I envisage that the sreaders would only rake forward say 10 degrees as sideways bend is the biggest issue.

 

Mal.

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oh hell, why not...

 

doing this without epoxy leads me to 6mm! ply. 3M 5200, Titebond 3, etc. desperate times. What is 'under the waterline' mean

for an IC?

 

so she has to be as small as possible. Looks like Harken 27mm track is in the running, according to Harken Industrial, it can be cantilevered. Light too.

 

Looooow prismatic. over 300 Vacanti designs, BUT have to fine out a few things- what is th Bethwaite hump anyway?

 

I'd like to do an epp wing, but 15 sheets of epp later all I've found possible is an 18" chord, which equals a little less than 30 sq feet on a a 19' span, which means an interesting uh, jib, or screecher. trying to get 50 sq ft, but things get a bit floppy, so investing in carbon tape. And 30 more sheets of 1.5 lb epp. Can you say Gorilla glue? Goop waits in the wings.

 

Section is a Stanford derived section.

 

But a single sail on track is beginning to look appealing. As in less frustrating.

 

Other surprises, but anon.

 

Paul

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doing this without epoxy leads me to 6mm! ply.

It needn't you know... Excellent wood boats were built in the aerolite days with thin ply, multiple stringers, multiple skins, local doubling and all the rest of it as structure demanded...

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True. I wanted to go really pointy anyway, single chine flat bottom, the numbers are so much better for a skinny hull with a low WS, and it looks like I can meet weight with stiffer ply, and simpler construction. Since this hull is test a bed more than anything else, I'm thinking 'why not'? Whether she's fast or not, doesn't do the IOR death roll downwind and how easily she gets to a plane, we'll see, but there seem to be some shapes that do interesting things as far as wave making in this neck of the woods at higher SLR's, if my modeling can be believed.

 

The other direction I've been obsessed with has been generally a Formula Board with streamlined ends, which, except for the weight fits in nicely within the 10 sq sail area is happier with 1meter beam rule of thumb (sail area in sq f = width in cm) current with a lot of Formula shapers. But THAT is a big max beam IC, and will require more aircraft style structure to get to weight. Interesting though that some of the wider shapes while high in WS at rest, can be heeled to lower WS than their skinnier brethren for the light stuff. But would you need 8k to get them moving.

 

What does Steve Clark ( The Yankee ) call his shed? The Field of Broken Dreams?

 

 

B)

 

Paul

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I should add that one reason I've been fiddling with an epp wing is that I can go with a section (like 9% up) to go around a fatter mast, do it for a whole lot less $ than a sail, and with any luck it will not self destruct when it hits the water. The stuff is flexible too, and I'm beginning to think that if I'm clever enough, a symmetrical shape can distort into a nice asymmetrical shape under load. And 30 sheets are headed my way.

 

Oh yeah.

 

Paul

 

One of my neighbors, a retired structural engineer, is trying to get me to build the hull out of EPP. Claims I'll hurt myself less when I crash.

Cheeky Devil.

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The Lab of Luxury is on corner of Sleazy Street and the Avenue of Broken Dreams.

 

Just recently I have been playing games with Gorilla Glue.

Mix in water and the stuff foams quite well, about 3x.

Not as brittle as standard 2 part pour in place foam, kind of nifty.

 

I built a sandwich panel using Gorilla Glue as resin.

I did the sample between two sheets of aluminum and clamped it together, I haven't tried bagging it yet.

but it seems that you might be able to tab things together using the stuff, I think you may have to use some pressure or a bit of plastic on the air side.

 

Very light wooden stuff was built before the days of epoxy, you just need bigger gluing surfaces, which takes additional care and patience, but isn't a killer. Spend some quality time with thinned varnish or urethane sealers and make sure you have plenty of ventilation so that the inside can get nice and dry in between baths.

SHC

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I've been using Gorilla glue for the epp- fills nooks and crannies, and when it dries, easy to sand, and has similar flex and tearing strength as the foam, so seams (end butted sheets) are a non issue.

 

Thanks Steve, The bigger glueing area is what I've been planning- looks like clc has some nice light chine log and marine ply (puzzle cut scarf cut) stock- any thoughts on the best chine wood for screwing/nailing and gluing?

 

If I might bug you guys with another question: Gorilla glue under the waterline? Titebond 3? Not as toxic as 3M 5200.

 

The WoodenBoat guys say no, but they leave their boats in the water for weeks at a time I think.

 

Paul

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As JimC suggests, many pretty good boats were built before "real" "waterproof" glues were introduced.

I don't think that on a racing dinghy there is any difference between above and below the waterline.

The key is to manage to keep the wood pretty damn dry, which means putting lots of sealer on the surfaces and maintaining a good finish so that the wood doesn't start wicking up water. So you need to be more thoughtful about how you use the boat and how you care for it. But if it is necessary because it is the only way you can get the job done, then that's the price you pay.

Almost any glue joint will fail if you boil the wood long enough. Gorilla glue may fail sooner than epoxy, but that doesn't mean it isn't durable enough for a dinghy.

Standard dimension lumber for building this kind of stuff is Sitka spruce. It's is not the most durable wood, but is strong and light. Once again, it needs to be sealed and not left top soak in water for 10 months at a time.

Obeche was one of my favorites for years, glues well and is lighter than spruce, but less strong. Not a problem if all you are doing is holding plywood together however.

SHC

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Paul

 

Erich's mast is 100mm diameter at the base, 25mm at the tip. Straight taper. Apparently it was designed so that when fully loaded the tip would be about where a stayed mast tip was. I've left him a message.

 

 

As you know you live in the land of some of the finest wood on the planet. Western red cedar makes a good chine log or sheer clamp - lots of gluing surface for it's weight. If you can pick through some nice Douglas fir you can find stuff that is as light and stronger than Sitka spruce. Bill Buchan used to make Star masts out of it.

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Paul

 

Erich's mast is 100mm diameter at the base, 25mm at the tip. Straight taper. Apparently it was designed so that when fully loaded the tip would be about where a stayed mast tip was. I've left him a message.

 

 

As you know you live in the land of some of the finest wood on the planet. Western red cedar makes a good chine log or sheer clamp - lots of gluing surface for it's weight. If you can pick through some nice Douglas fir you can find stuff that is as light and stronger than Sitka spruce. Bill Buchan used to make Star masts out of it.

 

 

Thanks, Chris, just talked to Ted- he kind of remembered Erich's mast, but he does have the mandrel for it still. So he'll get back to me next week with a quote. I was thinking Carl V. D. Finn sailor. Ted's a canoe sailor. Doh! Anyway, he's also looking up Erich's mast file.

 

I appreciate the reminder about local WRC. I'm up to my elbows in resistance to splitting, fastener holding, bend ability, etc.. In my previous incarnation as piano tuner (42 years) I was heavily immersed in wood (think spruce), but at a level of detail (and industry) where I think I lost touch with the individuality of different woods outside of tone, which rapidly dwindles your horizons.. And that is a black art at best. Especially when you're putting together planks to create a soundboard. So you can understand that when Steve said 'spruce', I was relieved in that at least I have the illusion that I know something about it.

 

And here I'm back to counting growth rings per inch! :D I'd forgotten that Buchan made his Star masts out of the stuff. My dad ( who was an architect who was always building some carvel planked beauty) really like that. He was always checking out different woods at any yard he could find.

 

And considering whether softer woods will compress around a mechanical fastener. Hmmm. Maybe I should smuggle a screw in with me when I'm looking at wood.. I'm sure the yards would love that!

 

Paul

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And considering whether softer woods will compress around a mechanical fastener.

For sure they will... Mechanical fasteners are a sore point with me at the moment because I'm working (very intermittently!) on a 40 year old wood boat that has a lot of glue failure, and whilst the glue failure is resolvable chewed up ends of timber where the glue had failed and mechanical fasteners were doing the work is making me replace timber I'd rather have kept... I think its worth avoiding mechanical fasteners just as much with non epoxy as with epoxy construction. I've used odd scraps of polyurethane foam under cramps when clamping down cedar whilst curing to avoid local compression and I wonder if a similar approach could work if you need to use through fasteners when putting stuff together...

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There are going to be places where clamping is going to be awkward, or I reach a point where a boy can only own so many clamps.

 

I'm going with Titebond 3. It's a good glue, I think, for this application, and the toxicity is low, but it needs pretty high clamping pressure. it also tends to slide a bit over time, so i'm thinking some mechanical fastening would help things, as well has help keep things tight while the glue cures. 6" between clamps seems to be the rule of thumb, so I'm thinking of 12" mechanical spacing, and 12" clamp, which results in the 6 inches. But there are 100 screws to a pound, so screw weight is not that big a deal. Mechanical fastening also helps keep plywood together at the extreme.

 

As much as I like ring nails, I'm going with screws mainly to get easier (progressive?) clamping. You can also theoretically :lol: back a screw out after glue has cured and fill the space with something like Gorrilla Glue or epoxy. In the latest WoodenBoat there is an article about a builder of small speedboats who did that because he couldn't afford screws. But he could afford Weldwood.

 

Are you dealing with old screws or nails?

 

Paul

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You can also theoretically :lol: back a screw out after glue has cured and fill the space with something like Gorrilla Glue or epoxy. Are you dealing with old screws or nails?

Old screws... I normally back out screws when the glue is 90% cured - and use plain steel screws as well which is a saving. Another thought : if you back the screws out you could screw through a batten or something and so not have to worry about local compression of the wood. But there must be people who are far better than I am at this stuff, its just that the boat I'm working on is far lighter built than any UK built one. I'm still mulling over how I'm going to replace some lengths of stringer which have got badly chewed up because I can't get a cramp on those of course. Also worrying about keeping the shape of the boat. If I were energetic I guess I'd build a jig to locate her securely but I'm also short of room.

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The Lab of Luxury is on corner of Sleazy Street and the Avenue of Broken Dreams.

 

Just recently I have been playing games with Gorilla Glue.

Mix in water and the stuff foams quite well, about 3x.

Not as brittle as standard 2 part pour in place foam, kind of nifty.

 

I built a sandwich panel using Gorilla Glue as resin.

I did the sample between two sheets of aluminum and clamped it together, I haven't tried bagging it yet.

but it seems that you might be able to tab things together using the stuff, I think you may have to use some pressure or a bit of plastic on the air side.

 

Very light wooden stuff was built before the days of epoxy, you just need bigger gluing surfaces, which takes additional care and patience, but isn't a killer. Spend some quality time with thinned varnish or urethane sealers and make sure you have plenty of ventilation so that the inside can get nice and dry in between baths.

SHC

 

Made a sandwich panel with white Gorilla Glue- pretty heavy clamping, wood foam wood, sprayed some water on the foam, glued on wood sides, used a squeegie to even out Glue-foamed up so much that everything slid sideways in shear and broke a plastic clamp. Foam all over the place. Does the white foam up more than the brown GG?

 

:)

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Just put glue btw two sheets if ply and let it foam up to a jiged thickness?Otherwise regular pourfoam but it seems like a good way to waste lots of material figuring things out! That's why they mold surfboard blanks I suppose.

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Looking at the tabs on the sheer- they look like they're in front of the mast?

 

Paul

 

Edit- duh, jib track... :o. I am too una rig obsessed

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post-2679-058482200 1303397449_thumb.jpg

post-2679-018517500 1303397491_thumb.jpg

 

Dragonfly IC - nearly finished!

 

 

Cool. Low foredeck, built in mounts for self tacker, stern hung rudder.... and from other pictures clearly a planing machine.

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Just ordered a mast from Ted Van Dusen at www.vandusenracingboats.com . It's based on a mandrel he did for Erich Chase to fabricate an unstayed IC mast. :)

 

I'm going to Bill Hansen for a sail, which will be an una rig.

 

So anyone have any favorites for foils? I'm figuring that as long as I'm using this canoe as a test bed for foils among other things, I'm going to go with a leeboard (only 1 at a time, so I hope I can still come out and play....) to make trying out different boards a bit easier, since I can go with different dimensions without worrying about case size. I've talked to Phil's Foils, but anyone else out there that you guys know about? I don't know that much about importing foils, but if it isn't too out there, or too fiddly, I'm willing to consider it. I know PF are in Canada, but NAFTA helps there. I'm on the Left Coast, Rockies division.

 

Paul

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Dude, you will only be playing with yourself, pretty much. Staying in the same zip code as the rest of the fleet is hard enough without weird leeboard setups, rigs, etc. You have so many variables you will never find out if any of them are fast. Keep something conventional for heaven's sake!

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Really there's only one thing outside the class rules and that's the leeboard. And I would argue that there is nothing more canoe-ish than a leeboard. Killer argument, no?

 

As far as the una rig goes, Phil did good, and my sailing has included the Finn, OK, Lasers, Sol Cat 15, Moth (skiff), Windsurfers, Interclub, Force 5, Banshee, and various catboats. Notice a trend?

 

As for the zip code, it's 99223. So you're right about me sailing by myself. Even other classes as it turns out.. :lol: So it's more about (in my best Barry White) The Love, baby.

 

But if I can make it to a race, I'm hoping she'll at least draw a crowd for measuring.

 

You all can decide whether a leeboard is outside the pale. As long as there's only one on a boat, I don't see a leeboard (or off center centerboard) as a slippery slope to hydrofoils. But I'm blinded by the light, apparently.

 

Paul

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Really there's only one thing outside the class rules and that's the leeboard. And I would argue that there is nothing more canoe-ish than a leeboard. Killer argument, no?

 

As far as the una rig goes, Phil did good, and my sailing has included the Finn, OK, Lasers, Sol Cat 15, Moth (skiff), Windsurfers, Interclub, Force 5, Banshee, and various catboats. Notice a trend?

 

As for the zip code, it's 99223. So you're right about me sailing by myself. Even other classes as it turns out.. :lol: So it's more about (in my best Barry White) The Love, baby.

 

But if I can make it to a race, I'm hoping she'll at least draw a crowd for measuring.

 

You all can decide whether a leeboard is outside the pale. As long as there's only one on a boat, I don't see a leeboard (or off center centerboard) as a slippery slope to hydrofoils. But I'm blinded by the light, apparently.

 

Paul

can you make use of the already existing vanDusen mast built for Erich Chase that Chris has? I believe it is looking for a home.

could save you some cash and lighten Chris' load?

I am probably speaking out of turn. oh dear.

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It's my understanding that the mast belongs to Erich- I haven't heard from Chris or Erich, and as it turns out, my mast need is different enough so it makes sense to do the mast I just ordered.

 

Paul

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A leeboard will be of questionable legality, class rules wise. You are allowed to have the DB/CD 1 meter below the hull.

a straight leeboard will be imersed more than 1 m when the DB is on the lee side when the canoe is heeled

If it is curved toward the centerline plane so that the tip is 1m or less below the hull you may be compliant .

Nat'l Masurer

If you plan on switching DBs port for starboard in a tack, believe me you are already busy enough ,you don't need the added complication.

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But doesn't a curved foil start down the slippery slope of hydrofoils? Or would keeping the length of a straight LB within the radius of 1M below the hull at what, rest? when the hull is heeled (with the radius described by a daggerboard centerlined at 1 M under) to n degrees work? Would the results of modeling be any help in this, or do you need this to be reality based? Static heel?

 

Paul

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Hydrofoils are by name not banned however the application and practical use of them means they really aren't worth playing with on IC's, as Ive said before (maybe not in this thread) if you want to foil by a moth Canoes aren't about that they are different boats which are an absolute pleasure to sail.

 

I would say as long at the centreboard doesn't project more than 1m bellow the hull then a lee-board is ok whatever shape it finishes up isnt an issue, however the exact design would need to be seen so a ruling could be given (drawings sketched or detailed descriptions no need to build and then be told no good, I would hate to see money/time wasted). It possible to be legal with one part of the rules and inadvertently breach another rule.... (Steve and Co did a great job to try and cover loop holes)

 

ICU2

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It depends on the buoyancy of the chine closest to the LB? Loaded w/ my weight opposite at the end of the seat? While the sail drives the lee chine into the aqua? And a buoyant LB resists?

 

This is dynamic hell, in a way, at least. B)

 

Paul

 

But thanks IC, your reply is within the same vein as I'm in. I'm not trying to skirt a rule, just keep a non epoxy hull close to minimum weight.

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I'm not trying to skirt a rule, just keep a non epoxy hull close to minimum weight.

 

Paul,

 

I understand your enthusiasm for quirkiness, I'm just not sure that your justification for a leeboard based on structural weight saving is justified. It might be worth doing a weight estimate of centreboard case vs leeboard fixing arrangement before committing to a leeboard. The loads on an IC are a lot higher than on an open sailing canoe, so the leeboard fixing arrangement will need to be fairly substantial.

 

Mal.

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I'm going to go with a leeboard (only 1 at a time, so I hope I can still come out and play....) to make trying out different boards a bit easier, since I can go with different dimensions without worrying about case size.

I would have thought you'd be about two hundred times better of rigging up a cassette setup so you can plug and play foils in that... The structural implications of leeboards seem pretty complicated to me plus all the hassle of setting things up, surface losses, all the rest of it.

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I think I've found a way to use part of the seat carriage to be part of the leeboard support structure.

 

I may as well divulge that the seat will not slide, but will rotate, which opens up a lot of structural possibilities as well as balance on the hull.

And after watching the vid of the nose plants at the first DC worlds, it seems to me there may be something to being able to fluidly getting weight towards the stern, as well as working through waves. That and I've had a lot of injuries and resultant surgeries that limit some of what I can do.

I'm really not being quirky for it's own sake: centerboard cases are problematic enough with epoxy, and I'm not using epoxy. Building a cassette inside of a CB case without epoxy and carbon is going to get bulky, and probably heavy. The seat will have it's fulcrum at the CB, and a circular support running aft from each of the gunwales. If I join the support to the hull sides, I will have thickness, as well as a bulkhead at that running across a strong back for support. And as Andy was noticing with his una IC he found that he wanted to be close to the centerboard with the seat in some conditions. The LB plus rotating seat allows me the freedom to be on top of the LB in a number of different balance configurations, such as going downwind with the LB swung back a bit for balance and less lift.

 

Granted, I will be chicken hiking, but I will have more control over certain dynamics of the canoe. Less leverage leads to a lighter mast (~10lbs).

Which helps spiral things down elsewhere, which I need, given a non epoxy environment. A shorter seat I hope will lead to handling advantages such as switchingthe tiller extension, and speed in tacking as I presumably won't need to stand up and move the seat during tacks or jibes. it also leads to a lighter seat.

 

I've been doodling a LB as it describes a radius on the leeward side, and if you include buoyancy increase as the hull heals, I'm beginning to wonder how much the LB would go under a line drawn from the end of a 1 meter (from the bottom of the hull)CB at rest. I guess it boils down somewhat to whether the 1 meter measurement point is a line parallel to the beam at 1 meter under the hull, or a point at the midpoint and centerline of the hull. A curved LB to that point would be unfair to the spirit of the rules from my point of view, as it would represent a LOT more span.

 

It may be that the leeboard attachment is a violation of the no attachment to a point outside of the hull. I can see a lot of problems, but an unbroken structure is so much more appealing to me in so many different ways that if what I am doing is considered illegal, i would hope my canoe might be considered a National Canoe. in any event, I live so far from the next Canoe (Chris's) it can hardly matter.

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If your innovative canoe flips and you are righting it say with the LB down, seems like the hull is coming down on top of you as the mast rises. Then will the rotating seat stay put to windward or will it be taken by gravity to leeward or across the deck where you need to hop over it to get it to windward so you can sail? If the LB is high after a flip is it reachable - could be almost 30" up there, 10" above a Nethercott?

 

I am no expert on anything but experience shows I am proficient at flipping canoes.

 

 

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So I just graphed out in a fairly simple form what a LB does as a hull heels, and with a 39" LB on a square chined hull 30" Beam at zero degrees, rotating around the center longitudinal at 15" from the max beam chine that stays at the waterline during heeling, the tip of the LB goes down to the following depth past the 39" line under the hull:

 

The first number is the degree of heel

 

5 = 3/4"

 

10 = 1 1/2"

 

15 = 2 1/4"

 

20 = 3"

 

25 = 2 7/8"

 

After 25 degrees, things get shallower. So, a 36" LB should do the trick, as long as the measurement is a line, and not a point.

 

This does not take into account the hull gaining buoyancy as it heels, which it does with this hull shape, which may mean that the tip of a 29" LB never goes below the 39" depth.

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If your innovative canoe flips and you are righting it say with the LB down, seems like the hull is coming down on top of you as the mast rises. Then will the rotating seat stay put to windward or will it be taken by gravity to leeward or across the deck where you need to hop over it to get it to windward so you can sail? If the LB is high after a flip is it reachable - could be almost 30" up there, 10" above a Nethercott?

 

I am no expert on anything but experience shows I am proficient at flipping canoes.

 

Me too. Even canoes without sails.....

 

When I was a kid, our family had a sailing canoe with one LB. Hull about about 3' wide. Massive amounts of Father installed floation: No worse than a Laser or 5oh. Easier than a Finn.

 

Shock chord to help center seat, will be floating back on from the stern, given my hopping abilities. Flotation in the mast and or sail. The way that my boats have never stayed put the same way to the wind that they capsized when they come up, its' kind of hard to say which side of the hull I'd like it to be. ESP after a death roll, which was what I specialized in with my old Nethercott the most, by far.

 

Paul

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I'd worry about the seat rotating down at speed onto your head...

 

It is very easy to make a non-epoxy cb cassete with two chunks of 3/8" or 5/16" Delrin and some 10-32 allthread at the corners. Cut inside the scribed foil profile with a jigsaw and sand to fit with the actual board, then bolt it together and lock off with nylock nuts. Little G10 plates to keep it in the boat. Great action-Smooooth.

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Ps I think it states the db can't project more than one meter from the bottom of the hull; there is no specified angle of heel, so you should be Ok. But I need to review the rule.

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centerboard cases are problematic enough with epoxy, and I'm not using epoxy. Building a cassette inside of a CB case without epoxy and carbon is going to get bulky, and probably heavy.

I dunno, it still feels to me as if you are creating a large problem in order to avoid a small problem... You don't need to build a cassette inside the case at all.

This is what I'd do...

Just build a simple rectangular daggercase, which is something thousands of homebuilders did successfully with aerolite in the 60s and 70s, and have the outer skin overlap it say half an inch by 6mm or 8mm thick front and back - make the skin double thickness for a reasonable overlap of the board Get the foilbuilder to build the cassette with the foil (HD foam, glass for the cassette and an outer cover) and shape it so that it fits flush with the hull outer skin resting fore and aft on the skin - a tenon really. Captive bolts to screw on a capping piece, and there you go - something like this...

post-60-078739900 1303848542_thumb.gif

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I'm looking, I'm looking......

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I have to agree about the ease of building a rectangular case and a simple cassette many different ways of achieving the same result and all should be light and strong enough to do the job.

One thing I keep telling myself when I come up with some different ideas is that "its all been done before in IC's there is a reason things are how they are" which more often than not results in me going back to the tried and proven systems. That said I do have a collection of odd bits and pieces in my shed of things that didn't provide the hoped results, having a tinker and play is lots of fun..... I guess my point is some things are easily modified having to cut a hull apart in the future IF the lee board doesn't work as hoped is a big modification to do, Im sure there are a few lurking this thread who have lee board experience to say a definite yes or no to it merits weight/strength..

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One reason I'm looking at the LB is that I'm going with the sail all the way to the deck (like the MPS and Andy did) in hopes of getting more luff length to make up for the lack of a jib, and unless I do a centerboard the low boom is going to make pulling a daggerboard up on a light air reach or run impossible, or at least interesting as far as the life of the daggerboard. It's hard to tell from vids and pics, but is anyone pulling boards up downwind these days? I used to with the Incredibly Old and Decrepit Nethercott, but except for a pic of Bill Beaver going downwind with his board up a little that I have had on my wall for a while I haven't seen it.

 

And, well, I saw Massenet's Don Quixote recently. Might have something to do with it. B)

 

And i'm going to be sailing in lakes that are not mapped and I don't know at all.

 

Paul

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I have to agree about the ease of building a rectangular case and a simple cassette many different ways of achieving the same result and all should be light and strong enough to do the job.

One thing I keep telling myself when I come up with some different ideas is that "its all been done before in IC's there is a reason things are how they are" which more often than not results in me going back to the tried and proven systems. That said I do have a collection of odd bits and pieces in my shed of things that didn't provide the hoped results, having a tinker and play is lots of fun..... I guess my point is some things are easily modified having to cut a hull apart in the future IF the lee board doesn't work as hoped is a big modification to do, Im sure there are a few lurking this thread who have lee board experience to say a definite yes or no to it merits weight/strength..

 

 

It would be nice to hear some LB stories...

 

fwiw Selway Fisher claims that DB and LB racing canoes -class B? are close enough that sailing skill tells the tale. There. Maybe that will spur some comments.

 

Paul

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Ultimately it probably won't make any difference at all. Unless you want to sell it.

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My experience trying to sell our custom Perry Cruising Sled has convinced me that the best boats should be fun, but if you never want or have (need?) to sell it that is perfect. You should be able to burn or give it away when done and be happy. I guess approaching it like a personal expression of art, rather than as commodity. More of a process than an endpoint.

 

Anyway, the hull is by far the cheapest part of this exercise. I can't imagine that I'll get it right the first time.

 

ICU2 has it right. It should be fun.

 

Paul

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The more of an art project it becomes and the less a recognizable 10sqm canoe, the less reasons anyone else will have to care about it. And fundamentally the best part of this endeavor is the group of people it attracts. I applaud vision, but there is a hundred years or more of innovation behind the class, and if you are going to innovate you may as well do it in a way that facilitates comparative analysis, because that gives you a basis for interacting with other people beyond talking about construction techniques.

 

Anyway I'm sure you will do whatever floats your boat.

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fwiw Selway Fisher claims that DB and LB racing canoes -class B? are close enough that sailing skill tells the tale.

Sailing skill always tells the tale... At the last Olympics the Laser class typically finished in a 12% spread of elapsed times. That's far greater than the difference in handicap between a Laser and a Laser 4.7... Boat speed is great fun, but its not nearly as important as most people think! As I probably say far too often, I've never figured out how you tell whether Fred won because of his boat speed or in spite of his lack of it.

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From only a few years experience in the class I can accept that the IC attracts quirky people. Doing your own thing is part of the class.

 

But Paul I see disaster iminent on two counts:

 

Leeboards are are for boats sailed in shallow waters, dutch barges etc. not fast high performance dinghies. I tried some on a cat in 1964 and the structural issues plus huge turbulance between the hull and board made them short lived.

 

I also tried a swinging seat on the Hollow Log and it lasted one sail. There was no way of knowing where it was going to be after a tack, straight out, way forward or way aft. A very good chance that you will miss it when placing your body outboard.

 

On the other hand if you are buiding a boat to test some ideas and not intending to go racing then go right ahead, but maybe this is the wrong place for the design discussion?

Phil S

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I thought about a swinging seat while designing the new one for my own boat. I thought that with enough practice, it might be possible to tack without moving from the seat by swinging around under the boom from one side to the other, as the boat passed through head to wind. Cowardice prevailed however, and I abandoned the idea.

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and unless I do a centerboard the low boom is going to make pulling a daggerboard up on a light air reach or run impossible, or at least interesting as far as the life of the daggerboard.

I have a lever vang that clears the daggerboard by about an inch. It doesn't stop me pulling the foil up: it just means I need to shove it down again before I gybe or tack.

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Hi

As Hayden said most things have been tried in the IC class, Rob Michaels built a swinging seat, I think it challenged even his high skills of fabrication, and it was the only one done because it was very diffcult to build and did not work that well, perhaps someone else can remember it better than me, I think it was around before I started in canoes, perhaps about 1987? I saw it only once.

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Hard to believe Phil, but I think you're right. This may not be the place for this discussion. The Rob Micheals seat has always fascinated me, and the possibility of fast tacking and gybing is tantalizing. As long as you can stay on the seat during maneuvers. So as embarrassing as this is turning out (much to my surprise) I'm going to go ahead with it. It's nice to know the idea is still floating around, Mr. Nutter. And Phil, as you said, you did try the idea, and that counts with me.

 

Jim, I have snapped a Laser daggerboard that was pulled up a ways in the midst of a 35 degree shift in the midst of a gust.. No rescue boat. The couple who owned the beach I washed up on were very nice about it.

 

I must admit, the plethora of hydrofoils can take the blame for my interest in a vertical surface piercing foil, although I appreciate that Moth practice does not exactly apply. The Rave foiler is the most direct thought provoker. They do work. Or do they just seem to work?

 

I have sent a graph and a cartoon to Del Olson to get some sort of idea of legality.

 

So I think I'll go quiet here for a while while I work some things out, or, if anyone is interested enough and wants to go to a different thread that would be ok with me.

 

Paul

 

Does anyone know how to post pics on this forum with an iPad 2? It doesn't seem to support the offered software.

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Go for it Paul. As long as it measures as an IC, which is after all a development class, don't let the " we did that and it didn't work" sentiment dampen your enthusiasm.

 

I can envision your boat with the seat swung back over an I14 rudder/t-foil, tiny daggerboard, adjustable on the fly rake...

 

Absolutely discuss it here. But do please keep it an IC. No box to design within leads to madness.

 

Chris

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Paul:

All interesting ideas, but PLEASE before you trip lightly down the garden path, sail one of the existing boats and get a first hand understanding of what you trying to match. Chris or Kenny are not far away, and both will give you more than the time of day.

There is nothing wrong with taking a different approach to all this stuff, but I think you will have a better time and come closer to achieving your goals if you do a little bit of fieldwork before committing yourself to a design.

 

The boats I have raced with lee boards only had one. And it was complex figuring out whether to tuck the board in hard to the topsides or to have it far enough away that the hull and board had some way to relieve the interference drag.

SHC

 

Paul:

All interesting ideas, but PLEASE before you trip lightly down the garden path, sail one of the existing boats and get a first hand understanding of what you trying to match. Chris or Kenny are not far away, and both will give you more than the time of day.

There is nothing wrong with taking a different approach to all this stuff, but I think you will have a better time and come closer to achieving your goals if you do a little bit of fieldwork before committing yourself to a design.

 

The boats I have raced with lee boards only had one. And it was complex figuring out whether to tuck the board in hard to the topsides or to have it far enough away that the hull and board had some way to relieve the interference drag.

SHC

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Go for it Paul. As long as it measures as an IC, which is after all a development class, don't let the " we did that and it didn't work" sentiment dampen your enthusiasm.

 

I can envision your boat with the seat swung back over an I14 rudder/t-foil, tiny daggerboard, adjustable on the fly rake...

 

Absolutely discuss it here. But do please keep it an IC. No box to design within leads to madness.

 

Chris

 

Chris, I believe I will.

 

I was beginning to think that it was 'box to design within leads to madness, no?'. :P

 

Your aphorism is better.

 

How did you know about the adjustment on the fly?

 

Paul

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Paul:

All interesting ideas, but PLEASE before you trip lightly down the garden path, sail one of the existing boats and get a first hand understanding of what you trying to match. Chris or Kenny are not far away, and both will give you more than the time of day.

There is nothing wrong with taking a different approach to all this stuff, but I think you will have a better time and com