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It's interesting that in some classes the poled out jib is seen as necessary - Star, NS 14 etc., but in the IC the performance gain, if any, hasn't lead to it's widespread use.

 

I wonder if it's just not effective on an IC for some reason?

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So I have a question about this jib boom thing.

 

Will it work basically like a swing rig when off the breeze?

 

Upwind, I presume the tack is at the bow, and the rig is 'normal'; thus avoiding the tacking problems with swing rigs.

 

 

Yes, like a swing rig offwind except the jib swing is decoupled from the main.

 

Right, the tack is tacked down to the bow upwind.

 

Out for a sail yesterday it was surprising how little oomph - I think that's the right term - it added in light wind. Well I guess I'll find out if it works in a couple of weeks when I go down to sail with Erich, Del and Anders. Mikey and Dan too if they can break free.

 

Chris- Oomph is kind of why I was asking about changing the space between the jib and main as it swings out. I was looking over a paper called "The Low Reynolds Number Aerodynamics of Leading edge Flaps" by Bakhtian and Babinsky (AIAA 2007-662). It occurred to me that your rig actually deploys so much more accurately that the flow in between the main and jib might slow down a lot more than the approximation that is a normal jib and main and put the slot in really low re, as well as much lower attack angles for the jib, and you are getting the usual twilight zone of laminar separation bubble and bubble bursts over the sails.

 

The paper investigates Re 40,000- 120000, and is based on a row of feathers that deploy at the leading edge of some soaring birds at low speeds,

and runs the concept through a wind tunnel to try to figure what is going on. Fixed flap testing showed a distinct performance at these low Re numbers, and at angles of greater than 20 degrees, a regime in which the baseline airfoil experienced detrimental laminar separation effects.

 

Anyway, they tried out 3 basic approaches- a flap attached to the leading edge which worked really well, but would be pretty complex to deploy.

(Ha!- I am talking to Chris!), a tape trip on the sail (smooth electrical tape .12mm thick 19mm wide, total span, at approximately 5% chord) which only worked above 95000 re (but really well), and a wire trip (1.1 mm spanning the entire airfoil) placed out in front of the leading edge right in the direction of the coming flow, and it worked well over all regimes. Placed the wire at the same position as the leading edge of the flap.

 

I think you have a sleeve luff on the jib. And if you do, a simple experiment might be to try a jib with the jib wire exposed, and the jib itself flying

from hanks? So the forestay acts as a trip. It looks like the wire in the wind tunnel was deployed at 5 - 10% of chord length ahead of airfoil. It may be that low attack angles, at low Re, (if your rig has a sleeve jib luff) produce weaker pressure peaks which allow laminar flow which may lead to upper surface laminar separation and bubble burst. At least at low re. Like under 95000 re. To put it simply, you may need some turbulence over the leading edge to encourage turbulent reattachment of the flot rather than encouraging laminar flow which will burst and detaching forever. If the jib is not working, no oomph.

 

Some sort of leading edge flap might help on the mast for similar reasons, a wire trip might be more difficult to pull off. It might be that your mast is encouraging laminar flow at low Re?

 

Paul

 

Well okay, but when reaching with the swing jib the main and jib are operating at a similar setting and AoA as if sailing very free upwind - more twist and a freer jib sheet than when close hauled I am thinking is the way to go. So wouldn't the flow through the slot be faster than when close hauled? For a given AWS of course.

 

I don't know yet what the best course is on a run. Try to sail hot enough to get flow across the sails or sail deep and stalled and rely on that increased projected area? Too bad so much of the jib is so low.

 

 

I guess what the results of the paper are saying a few things- one is that when the reynolds number drops below 95000, too little aoa leads to bubbles on the leading edge that burst and prevent the flow from reattaching, which I think is like a stall.

 

the radio control folks have a rule of thumb formula for reynolds number-

 

780 * speed in mph * chord in inches = re #

 

I don't know what you consider light air, but:

 

780 * 5mph * 24" chord = 93,600

 

12" chord = 46,800

 

6" chord = 23,400

 

So given how much slower the flow is down by the water rather than up even 3-4 feet, you may be right about the planform of typical jibs, particularly in light air: in lower winds, it may be that the usual happy accident of more chord in the sails down where the wind is less, and less where there is more wind needs to get turned around, just to get enough velocity to iron out low re discontinuities. I assume you are adding twist at least partly to accommodate wind shear, as well as induced twist from the planform?

 

But it might be worth trying a bit more aoa in the light stuff to see if might give you a bit more power. It might just stall too...

 

As far as the flow in the slot speeding up when you free up the angle between the 2 foils? IIRR, biplane theory gets a bit vague on that one, so I tend to look at the radio control guys who are messing around with biplanes, and I think with your swing rig you are in the realm of biplanes and tandems (the tandem upwind, which is what, say, a regular sloop rig is closer to) . Anyway, there's a lot of conversation that boils down to "everybody has their own ideas on biplane setup and what works for them." Big help, huh? But the farther away the two foils of a biplane cell are, the more they act like a single airfoils.

 

Anyway, if I can get it to work, here's a link-

 

http://www.hippocketetaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php/topic,2497.0.html (edit- damn it doesn't work) I'll try to find it.

 

Personally, I think if you loosen up the trailing edges, you might get more velocity in the aft part of the cell, and then you're into the Kutta conditionand all that poetry. And you lose aoa up front. But that's why I was interested in the article that started these ravings.

 

But longer chord is a way to get higher re, which could help getting you out of some of these issues. And if it matters supports your idea of more chord up higher, where a combination of longer chord and higher velocities might combine towards something better.. Which is where mainsails have been going.. And it helps to remember that when quadrilateral jibs, high clew jibs and that kind stuff were being tired out, aeronautics was in it's biplane era.

 

Paul

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try googling "biplane wing setup hip pocket aeronautics" haven't figured out how to get my ipad to copy and paste yet, and every time I enter the address on the SADIC thread it doesn't work. But it does come up on the google results. First as it turns out.

 

fun stuff.

 

But it might be fun to get an hanked old jib on and see if low wind oomph increases.....

 

Paul

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It's interesting that in some classes the poled out jib is seen as necessary - Star, NS 14 etc., but in the IC the performance gain, if any, hasn't lead to it's widespread use.

 

I wonder if it's just not effective on an IC for some reason?

 

I use a jib boom on my Classic IC, and I believe it is marginally faster downwind, goosewinged, than it is without it. The difference is enough that I have persisted with it. The other advantage is that it makes the jib self tacking, and there is only a single jib sheet to deal with.

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You know, Chris, you could go to a mastheadish rig, with a jib of 1/2 of the sail area, move the mast back and make the main higher AR. That way you could, with a slightly different planform, move the area of the jib up higher, have a higher rig AR in general, and balance the rig better downwind. One of the new Int 14's is kind of going that way, complete with a stiffer mast, I think. Last issue of Sea Horse?

 

Back to the future! :lol:

 

 

Paul

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Phil or Andy, did you feel you had any problems going downwind? I'm having Bill Hansen do my sail and one of the concerns he has is the death roll downwind.

 

Paul

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You know, Chris, you could go to a mastheadish rig, with a jib of 1/2 of the sail area, move the mast back and make the main higher AR. That way you could, with a slightly different planform, move the area of the jib up higher, have a higher rig AR in general, and balance the rig better downwind. One of the new Int 14's is kind of going that way, complete with a stiffer mast, I think. Last issue of Sea Horse?

 

Back to the future! :lol:

 

 

Paul

 

Ha ha. At least you didn't say I could JUST go with a masthead rig. I'm taking baby steps here, starting with the proven rig configuration and now this new rig is stiffer with the hounds raised about a foot. I guess the same direction that I14 has gone.

 

FWIW I had a short sail on Phil's IC and didn't find any difficulty dealing with that big main. Except that gybing looked like it would take some getting used to, what with all that sail swinging across.

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Hollow Log was much pointier aft than most modern boats. Just what I thought would be good at the time without influence form anyone else. The topsides just curved in to the centre from the back end of the seat tracks which were substantially further forward than everyone else. None the less I rarely ever moved the seat more than half way back along the tracks and had very few diving adventures. My perception is that width and volume aft makes for a nose dive prone boat. Narrow stern also has less wetted area. Everyone else seems to have other opinions but thats the diversity that makes home designs so interesting.I thought the water flow off the back was very clean. There was a small wave near the centreline which I considered was due to the fat rudder.

Tin Teardrop was also pointy aft - we were both pintail mothies ;) with our own views.

I also didn't have nosedivy problems - it would go through waves, but not slow or dive under.

Wake looked clean too, following the chine line to the 'transom', but a bit of rooster tail sometimes.

A problem was the low volume/lack of rocker making turning the hull when tacking not easy - tiller over too fast and the ends push sdeways through the water, too slow and it's a nice curve, but gets stopped head to wind.

 

 

Phil or Andy, did you feel you had any problems going downwind? I'm having Bill Hansen do my sail and one of the concerns he has is the death roll downwind. Paul

 

una rig problems -

the sail is big, so tricky to gybe. The sail area is a bit too big for the limited mast height = a long boom.

No jib to assist tacking ( let off to get the boat turning, backing it if it goes head to wind )

Camber induced rig was faster than the bolt-rope conversion, but the sleeve-luff sail was difficult - launching in a breeze, getting in irons too easily and getting out of irons.

No problems with death rolls though. ( compared to lasers )- The boom doesn't go out that far, the rig is stiff and the cloth is stable, so you don't get the death roll.

some pics of the rig/s

post-2679-038723500 1305579065_thumb.jpg

post-2679-036836800 1305579141_thumb.jpg

post-2679-020141300 1305579225_thumb.jpg

post-2679-055311200 1305579423_thumb.jpg

post-2679-051427400 1305579503_thumb.jpg

post-2679-098414000 1305579581_thumb.jpg

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You know, Chris, you could go to a mastheadish rig, with a jib of 1/2 of the sail area, move the mast back and make the main higher AR. That way you could, with a slightly different planform, move the area of the jib up higher, have a higher rig AR in general, and balance the rig better downwind. One of the new Int 14's is kind of going that way, complete with a stiffer mast, I think. Last issue of Sea Horse?

 

Back to the future! :lol:

 

 

Paul

 

Ha ha. At least you didn't say I could JUST go with a masthead rig. I'm taking baby steps here, starting with the proven rig configuration and now this new rig is stiffer with the hounds raised about a foot. I guess the same direction that I14 has gone.

 

FWIW I had a short sail on Phil's IC and didn't find any difficulty dealing with that big main. Except that gybing looked like it would take some getting used to, what with all that sail swinging across.

 

Hee hee. I thought it. Getting your IOR on.... :lol:

 

I think the reason Bill mentioned it (death roll) was experience with the early Hoots death rolling downwind, possibly because so much of the rig was on one side. Was The 21st C Log more stable than the Hoot downwind? I watched you sail one (on a reach) in Seattle, and it looked pretty stable, but it had quite a bit of development behind it by then.

 

Paul

 

Paul

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Hollow Log Una rig points:

Most of the swims I ever had were either

1. Tacking but only if the mainsheet or seat jammed, normally both when sheet jammed in seat runners.

2. Gybing, until I learned to swap the tiller to my forward hand first, (behind my back), leaving my aft hand to hold the sheet and throw the seat. I learned later from Kevin Knott that the same reverse hand technique is usde to gybe OK dinghies.

Things which helped were to:

a. tighten up the gaps in the seat runners so the sheet would not fit.

b. throw all the loose sheet aft onto the deck before tacking

c. no hesitation gybing like any other boat.

d. not bothering to sheet in and out in a gybe but swinging the boat under the boom till it swings, then squaring away suddenly for ballance

e. getting on the seat early in a gybe, even before the boom swings over, a lot like gybing a foiling moth.

 

No idea of relative stability with Hoot. My guess is only Chris has ever sailed both. I think all who sailed the log considered it the most unstable canoe at McCrae.

Although I minimised keel spring I must have had a lot more than Andy did because it would tack and steer through waves easilly. The only time I ever beat Hayden with his dev canoe was when I beat him in a long tacking duel in shifting winds on his lake. No jam ups that time. When it went well tacking was much quicker than the sloop rig boats. What also helped was the mainsheet being in front of the seat carriage, so I could throw the seat in one action and cross without going back behind the mainsheet blocks. This is only possible with the mast so far forward.

 

I was always happy with the hull of the Log. It was always fast reaching and running, in pretty well any weather I could catch and pass boats. I think the big issue was the unstayed rig never being stiff enough to get the leach tight. And the resulting excess luff curve meaning that the sail was fuller and more drag than a clean flat tight leach sail which goes much better on a low drag hull sailing close angles upwind. The unstayed rig was a result of the cat rig and the narrow hull. The mast was only 1.5m from the bow and the hull was only about 500mm wide at that point, much too narrow for a shroud base.

 

While a lot of canoe sailors use brute mainsheet loads for leach tension, the big boom demands a more authoritive boom vang. To get reasonable moments meant raising the boom and sacrifising luff length. I eventually broke the boom looking for more leach tension.

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It's interesting that in some classes the poled out jib is seen as necessary - Star, NS 14 etc., but in the IC the performance gain, if any, hasn't lead to it's widespread use.

 

I wonder if it's just not effective on an IC for some reason?

 

This is a very good question, especially the NS 14 comparison as it has a lot of similarities to the IC. I decided to try it based on Bethwaite's gooswing flow theories using an NS 14 as the example.

 

The only reason I can think of why its not so beneficial on an IC compared to an NS 14 is that the jib has such a short foot so when running at some angle the jib get out of the main wind shadow.

 

I didn't test it thorowly (if gains) and I ran out of time before the worlds so I just decided to remove it. Then I stopped sailing IC after the worlds. If any want to test it, I can recommend my approach. The system worked well, easy to launch, and when not in use it had no impact on the sailing as the jib-stick sat parallel to the boom.

 

Cheers

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The IC is significantly lighter and faster than the NS14 even though the rigs are so very similar. From experience in both classes I think the IC moves the apparent wind forward much easier than the NS. So Chris' system has potential to be better than goosewinging when even slightly off square, as the apparent would flowing from luff to leach.

 

The idea of a bigger jib on a swing rig is not viable. If the jib is bigger than about 25% of the total area the rig will trim itself and will not go out when the sheet is eased. I had a radio RM once with an oversised jib on a new swing rig and it was diabolical to sail. On a canoe it would be impossible. If you read the old report from the US canoe sailor who tried it years ago you will hear of a similar problem.

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The idea of a bigger jib on a swing rig is not viable. If the jib is bigger than about 25% of the total area the rig will trim itself and will not go out when the sheet is eased. I had a radio RM once with an oversised jib on a new swing rig and it was diabolical to sail. On a canoe it would be impossible. If you read the old report from the US canoe sailor who tried it years ago you will hear of a similar problem.

 

The first RC swing rig I built, I made the mistake of making the jib too big. Once you get the idea though, it's not that hard to build a swing rig that is well behaved. I've often thought that the IC was a good candidate for a swing rig. As a matter of fact, inspired by Chris Mass's experiments, I had my IC rigged on the lawn over the weekend to measure it up for a new ballestron boom!

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I think it's more a sprit. Well maybe a boom. I call it a swing jib. The sprit/boom pivots at the mast base. Kind of like a swing rig but not tied to the main boom.

 

I'm not sure it's fast. I'm not even really sure it's legal.

 

I'd be interested to know how you control that. It looks like the forestay is still attached to the foredeck?

 

It looks like you're coupling main and jib control to the sheet? If so, this is one of the finest traditional design avenues in sailing dinghy and canoe running rigging design. IIRR the Canoesletter and AYRS have been full of articles about this. When I was a teenager, I was convinced that a gentleman who figured out an elegant solution to this problem could be knighted. :lol: Really.

 

It should be legal.

 

Paul

 

Just another reason why I won't be knighted any time soon.

 

The swing of the jib is controlled by p&s guys and is entirely de-coupled from the main boom and sheet. It should make mark roundings a bit of a fire drill. I don't imagine I'll deploy it if it's blowing over 15.

 

You can see why I put such a big window in the jib. Otherwise I can't see where I'm going.

 

umm, you US fellows can't really have kniggets, because you don't have any guy dressed up like a woman (a queen), figuratively running the country. and you all bailed on the weird and oppressive system at some kinda tea party.

no kniggets...

very very nice thinking and fabrication though!

cheers, K

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But, Manfred had a really good time. I mean, brakes on a canoe?

 

:lol:

 

Edit- forgot while I was posting here. One of the reasons I've seen that the endplate is a problem on top is upwash is hard to manage, which is one of the reasons you see so much variation on airplane wingtips. Depends on planform too. I've never seen anything on, uh, downwash?

 

Or maybe the flow sneaking around to the low pressure side at the foot causes upwash down lower, and faster?

 

Now I'll have to spend hours in my office looking for articles. Darn. Purcell and Aero. B)

 

Paul

 

Couple of ignorant questions here...

 

How would a "Madison Avenue Boom" be measured WRT Sail area? If its not measured, rather than just foam, wouldn't a series of mylar "T Tabs" (each say 1/2" long to allow shape of the sail to still work fine) say about 4" on each side of the bottom of the sail work better?

 

As for Upwash - I always thought that what was causing the upwash was the "sweep" of the LE of the jib (caused by the angled forestay) and the resulting skew in flow. And that on aircraft, wingtip endplates reduced drag by reducing tip vortice energy rather than by reducing "pressure leakage" - So wouldn't the same issue apply to a sailplan with a forestay mounted jib?

 

IE "upwash" increases drag at the mast tip not so much "leakage"?

 

If this is so, I'd be curious about the dif between the impact of a fractional rigged foresail vs. Masthead. And it would also seem that a Masthead rigged foresail would benefit from a "winglet" plate at the top of the Mast. D'ya know of any experiments with a flat plate on the top of the mast reducing drag? I know that in the era of AL masts, that's a lot of "weight aloft", but for "endplate effect", you could just glue a 2ply sheet of CF up there which would add less weight than the Tricolor

 

 

Ignorant questions from you. Right. ;)

 

I really meant the "Madison Ave Boom" as a historical example of an attempt at an endplate. Hard to know what the ratio of endplate to chord

to fence? endplate? would have to be.

 

But I'm still looking..

 

Every time I have seen a description of tip vortices, the reason they start is high pressure stuff going to a low pressure area by going around the tip. Control of that vortice, or maybe a better word is management of that vortice seems to be the aim. The strategies go from multiple foils sprouting at the end of the wind, to curved up, etc. I've assumed that upwash makes things more dynamic, but does it change the equation? Does the energy of a tip vortex become less if it is smaller? Or broken up into smaller vortexes? Leakage is an old fashioned term for it, but I have been reading Munk lately, so I apologize. It seemed descriptive.

 

I messed with an endplate in my windsurfer days, but I out thought myself, in hindsight, and proved nothing. I became obsessed with up wash and down wash until I though an endplate was only better in a small range of rig inclination like when the flow was right across the luff at right angles to it. At least the Ampex Grand Master 1/4" recording tape I had up at the tip of the mast seemed to indicate that. I then tried an endplate that rotated around the end of the mast in the same plane as the sail fabric (up and down), but then thought it had to be held at some angle to the flow in order for it to work, and thought that small bungie chords might work, but then became convinced that they were screwing up the flow, and then I mangled everything during a nice face plant and gave it up.

 

The end.

 

Paul

 

I think the main reason for the Madison Ave. boom on J Boats was not the end plate effect, but a way to stake down the foot on the main in an airfoil curve to transmit that curve up the main, thus having a theoretically excellent main camber right to the boom.

I saw a foto of that somewhere, maybe in an old Marcach book .

maybe I'm on glue. wait, I AM on glue!

K

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Nice to see you at NOOD Chris. From what I could see (from a great distance) your downwind speed seemed pretty good (as in keeping in the hunt vs the other boats you were sailing against), but upwind you seemed to be higher and faster. How did you do against the Mustos? Seemed like you were in the midst of them. 29ers too? Your jib setup is elegant and intuitive. Hope you found your carrier ok on Sat. No room on the dock. Beautiful IC. Lots of folk asking me about it after you launched. Stoke was high. Even among Weta sailors.

 

Paul

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Nice 'n shiny at last - Blue Dragonfly, ready for collection.

post-2679-084629100 1306505055_thumb.jpg

 

nice lines Andy! nothing very draggy looking going on there!

I'm so very glad our boats can be pretty light now.

I may have my Maas Canoe in Italy soon, on the Adriatic at first.

won't be making the worlds though.

 

cheers, Kenny

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Nice 'n shiny at last - Blue Dragonfly, ready for collection.

post-2679-084629100 1306505055_thumb.jpg

 

nice lines Andy! nothing very draggy looking going on there!

I'm so very glad our boats can be pretty light now.

I may have my Maas Canoe in Italy soon, on the Adriatic at first.

won't be making the worlds though.

 

cheers, Kenny

 

hey Chris, you may want to visit me in Italy for some two boat tuning, later on!

K

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Nice 'n shiny at last - Blue Dragonfly, ready for collection.

post-2679-084629100 1306505055_thumb.jpg

 

nice lines Andy! nothing very draggy looking going on there!

I'm so very glad our boats can be pretty light now.

 

 

This is Alistair's boat, to his design ( Not my lines )

 

Weighs in at 23.7kg - painted, inc carriage tracks, without fittings.

post-2679-080231000 1307005174_thumb.jpg

post-2679-027327500 1307005476_thumb.jpg

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Alistair has gone from one extreme to another. At McCrae he had the sharpest V shaped canoe in the fleet, now he has a flat bottom and tight bilges. It should float a lot higher with less wetted surface and plain easilly too, not that the Monkey was slow.

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Yes its a bit differant, found that Monkey was fine upwind and on a run but lost out on the reaches or in marginal planing conditions, hope the new hull has addressed this. Its now in the garden being fitted out, a little more to do on the seat and carrage, so I hope to be afloat by the end of June, just in time for the worlds, finger crossed nothing falls apart!

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How are the various new boats getting on with hitting the water? Or is it all top secret? Hopefully at least some of the new UK boats are doing Champs this weekend/next week, but I can't get there...

 

I've been stuffed for sailing time this year by problems unrelated to sailing, but my modified Nethercott is knocking up a few miles club racing... I think I overcooked the stern by making it too flat. It was a bigger challenge than I expected to just extend the lines to the broad stern, and I think I could have managed to build in a bit of turnup to the chines which would have meant that she digs the lee rail in less drastically when sailed heeled in light airs. The other thing that is really striking is how much extra freeboard is needed over the last couple of feet of hull to stop the water flowing over the deck rather than the sides. I guess less volume forward would change that but there was never any point in being that radical...

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John Ellis has a new rules boat heading to the UK champs, I hear also Steve has a new boat on the water. I look forward to seeing photos of both (or it didnt happen) my sources are very reliable..... Steve's boats sounds really hot upwind... Im still trying to get time to finish my new boat I just need to pull my finger out and paint the plank then its time to hit the water Ive been at that point for some weeks now....

 

 

 

How are the various new boats getting on with hitting the water? Or is it all top secret? Hopefully at least some of the new UK boats are doing Champs this weekend/next week, but I can't get there...

 

I've been stuffed for sailing time this year by problems unrelated to sailing, but my modified Nethercott is knocking up a few miles club racing... I think I overcooked the stern by making it too flat. It was a bigger challenge than I expected to just extend the lines to the broad stern, and I think I could have managed to build in a bit of turnup to the chines which would have meant that she digs the lee rail in less drastically when sailed heeled in light airs. The other thing that is really striking is how much extra freeboard is needed over the last couple of feet of hull to stop the water flowing over the deck rather than the sides. I guess less volume forward would change that but there was never any point in being that radical...

 

 

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US container is on it's way to Travemunde,

4 US Team boats are in and one Australian boat that is going to live in Germany.

Pictures of sailing didn't get taken.

I never was a show business kid.

We did get 6 boats on the water on Sunday and get some idea of how things stack up.

My guess is that Chris Maas is the class of the fleet, and that someone is going to have to come up with a pretty special regatta in order to beat him. Angel of Attack is really well sorted and certainly had our number every time we went sailing.

There are chinks of daylight, the plywood boats seem plenty fast upwind, but I don't think we get around the course with him.

Time will tell as we work them up, but all we can do now is think about it and hope they show up in Germany in one piece and on schedule.

SHC

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Using the mast as my starting point has proved a bit sticky as far as progress goes. Having a mast fabricated has imploded, so I'll be making my own mast, which is leading to a merry chase throughout the limbic system, but it hit me the other day "hey, I used to be a Finn Sailor!" (sand sand, spoke shave spoke shave, glue glue,) so I've been staring at my cello bow, but since I don't think Pernumbuco is in the cards, like my Bruders were, making a pest of myself at local lumber yards. :D Switching from unstayed to stayed, canting, rakish, have 3 different approaches for the sail as far as rule goes. Have decided glues, and a pile of xps and epp in the garage is growing. Using Titebond III on puzzle joint scarf is apparently problematic, so trying to see if a butt joint can be part of the structure/weight torsion box, which will dictate thickness of plywood overall. Although I am switching to shaping mode now which is cool, but a different type of hollow 'shaping'. Cool new high tech sawhorses have arrived, will create work table, and start ' mildly enhanced interrogation' of plywood. Ordering chinelog etc. material next week. Shape is pretty much set, seat will be ordered 2-3 weeks, summer is slipping away....

 

Hearing about a local beach cat tearing a daggerboard etc. on a rock at a local lake (think no marine maps of bottoms of these lakes) has me a bit freaked about a db again. Not much sailing around here, so not a lot of local knowledge about lake or river bottoms topography rocks etc..

 

So are you guys totally against a nice longitudinally rotating retractable popup leeboard? Would it help to think of it as a laterally displaced daggerboard? Centerboard? :)

 

Pretty please? I'll be very quiet.

 

I'l gol sit in the corner now........

 

Paul

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Dragonfly on the water last night for the first time in a nice force 2-3. She felt quite stable and was planning when it was blowing the 3, nose lifts very early and tacks well, but then she has a bit more rocker than some... no one to compare with so could be super quick or perhaps super slow, time will tell. Will post some photos if I can get some one to take some next time I am out. No major unforeseen problems, a bit of rope trimming to do that I will have time to fiddle with in Germany. Feeling a little calmer now its hit the water, couple of weeks ago I was really beginning to think that I was going to miss the worlds, but a few nights of working past mid night then getting up at 5 to carry on has progressed things well

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Is someone sailing Monkey at the Worlds?

How many new boats are coming from Blighty?

 

US box is away with 4 boats.

USA 240- Willy Clark, modified josie

USA 246- Chris Maas , Super String Theory with cool jib stick

USA 249- Steve Clark, pointy plywood design

USA 250- David Clark, even more pointy plywood design.

 

We got to do a bit of sailing before everything shipped. Chris is fast most the time. The rest of us have our moments.

 

SHC

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Is someone sailing Monkey at the Worlds?

How many new boats are coming from Blighty?

 

US box is away with 4 boats.

USA 240- Willy Clark, modified josie

USA 246- Chris Maas , Super String Theory with cool jib stick

USA 249- Steve Clark, pointy plywood design

USA 250- David Clark, even more pointy plywood design.

 

We got to do a bit of sailing before everything shipped. Chris is fast most the time. The rest of us have our moments.

 

SHC

 

Hi Steve,

 

I will be sailing Monkey at the worlds. She is mostly as she was last time although she will be sporting a new set of Ullman Sails.

post-28852-007712200 1309450171_thumb.jpg

 

 

Chris Hampe

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Coming to the worlds in new design IC I think we have:

Chris Hampe is in Monkey,

Jon Ellis has built one to his own design, not seen finished photos but early ones looked very narrow and fast,

Phil Robin is in Scarlet, he now has this well sorted,

Colin Brown has finished off a morrison hull (so will be similar to Scarlet). and

Myself in Dragonfly

 

There are a couple of others but I am not sure if they will be finished, Steve Clark(UK) has built a Morrison 2 hull and is very nearly finished , Allen Powell's son has his boat but I am not sure what state this is in and Ian Mcferson has a ply boat but again not sure if this boat is on the water yet.

 

I will be taking the ferry from Harwich to hook of holland overnight on the Wednesday so will be in Travemunde Thursday evening, not too far for me really, about a 6-7 hr drive from Hook to Trav (according to google maps) and only about 1.5 hrs this side

 

looking forward to seeing you all there

 

Alistair

ps the Nethercott's are still very competitive in lighter winds so don't over look Mark and Simon!!

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That great news its looks like the new rules boats are starting to gain some momentum in the UK I guess we had to be patient and give people time to design and build their boats, in some case's I believe its been a first time build. Now for the new boats to get some time on the water and sorted out as well as the sailor getting use to their new ride... all takes time. wish I could make it to Germany this year.... Ive already started saving for San Francisco in three years :) look forward to my first new rules IC worlds which will be at the same place as my first IC Worlds....

Coming to the worlds in new design IC I think we have:

Chris Hampe is in Monkey,

Jon Ellis has built one to his own design, not seen finished photos but early ones looked very narrow and fast,

Phil Robin is in Scarlet, he now has this well sorted,

Colin Brown has finished off a morrison hull (so will be similar to Scarlet). and

Myself in Dragonfly

 

There are a couple of others but I am not sure if they will be finished, Steve Clark(UK) has built a Morrison 2 hull and is very nearly finished , Allen Powell's son has his boat but I am not sure what state this is in and Ian Mcferson has a ply boat but again not sure if this boat is on the water yet.

 

I will be taking the ferry from Harwich to hook of holland overnight on the Wednesday so will be in Travemunde Thursday evening, not too far for me really, about a 6-7 hr drive from Hook to Trav (according to google maps) and only about 1.5 hrs this side

 

looking forward to seeing you all there

 

Alistair

ps the Nethercott's are still very competitive in lighter winds so don't over look Mark and Simon!!

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Is someone sailing Monkey at the Worlds?

How many new boats are coming from Blighty?

 

US box is away with 4 boats.

USA 240- Willy Clark, modified josie

USA 246- Chris Maas , Super String Theory with cool jib stick

USA 249- Steve Clark, pointy plywood design

USA 250- David Clark, even more pointy plywood design.

 

We got to do a bit of sailing before everything shipped. Chris is fast most the time. The rest of us have our moments.

 

SHC

 

Hi Steve,

 

I will be sailing Monkey at the worlds. She is mostly as she was last time although she will be sporting a new set of Ullman Sails.

post-28852-007712200 1309450171_thumb.jpg

 

 

Chris Hampe

Hi Chris ,

hope Monkey behaving her self, new sails look good, will be intresting to compare Monkey and Dragonfly as I never had them side by side , but sailing Dragonfly she feels very similar to Monkey, just the nose lifts a bit more. Let me know if there is any info you need on her

Alistair

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Is someone sailing Monkey at the Worlds?

How many new boats are coming from Blighty?

 

US box is away with 4 boats.

USA 240- Willy Clark, modified josie

USA 246- Chris Maas , Super String Theory with cool jib stick

USA 249- Steve Clark, pointy plywood design

USA 250- David Clark, even more pointy plywood design.

 

We got to do a bit of sailing before everything shipped. Chris is fast most the time. The rest of us have our moments.

 

SHC

 

Hi Steve,

 

I will be sailing Monkey at the worlds. She is mostly as she was last time although she will be sporting a new set of Ullman Sails.

post-28852-007712200 1309450171_thumb.jpg

 

 

Chris Hampe

Hi Chris ,

hope Monkey behaving her self, new sails look good, will be intresting to compare Monkey and Dragonfly as I never had them side by side , but sailing Dragonfly she feels very similar to Monkey, just the nose lifts a bit more. Let me know if there is any info you need on her

Alistair

 

Additionally there will be me on GER 78 (Steve Clark Build Plywood), Peter Ullmann on GER 79 (Chris Maas Build), Stuart Brown on String Theory for Australia and more than a dozen other Germans on ODs, some with well known potential in light air.

Hopefully Peter and i can leverage the fact that we had more than just a few rides on our new design boats ....

 

Roger

IC GER 78

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Monkey is currently in my shed with a few minor repairs and one last attempt at finding a small leak that seams to suck in a little water in windy weather. I should be back on the water Sunday or Monday, then it will be sailing at least every other day until I head out to Travemunde a week before the regatta starts for final training at the venue.

 

Meanwhile I found the entry lists on the Travemunde website, although they have mixed AC's in with IC's.

 

IC / AC

ICOD

So we have 33 boats from 5 nations, 7 AC's 14 ICOD's and 12 New rules IC.

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Monkey is currently in my shed with a few minor repairs and one last attempt at finding a small leak that seams to suck in a little water in windy weather. I should be back on the water Sunday or Monday, then it will be sailing at least every other day until I head out to Travemunde a week before the regatta starts for final training at the venue.

 

Meanwhile I found the entry lists on the Travemunde website, although they have mixed AC's in with IC's.

 

IC / AC

ICOD

So we have 33 boats from 5 nations, 7 AC's 14 ICOD's and 12 New rules IC.

Blimey, training? I've been out twice, ripped my sail and put a nice dent in the boat so far, but the boat goes well against the local competetion

post-20243-025156300 1310541495_thumb.jpg

but no idea about speed against other canoes

Daggerboard very wobbly so are making a new one, skins done last night, trim tonight then bond Thursday

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So, I think that makes the top ten boats at the worlds:-

 

1. Chris Maas, Maas (mk2) design, Maas built, carbon/foam?

2. Peter Ullman, Maas design (which one?), Maas built carbon/foam?

3. Alistair Warren, Warren Mk2 (Dragonfly), Bloodaxe shell completed Warren, carbon/foam

4. David Clark, Clark design (which one?), Clark built? carbon/ply??

5. Phil Robin, Morrison mk1, Bloodaxe, carbon/foam

6. Willy Clark, Clark design: modified Josie, Clark, ?carbon/foam??

7. Chris Hampe, Warren Mk1 (Monkey) mod with sloop rig, Warren built, ? carbon foam?

8. Steve Clark, Clark design (which one?), Clark built? carbon/ply??

9. Simon Allen, Nethercott OD, Razorback?, carbon foam?

10. Mark Goodchild, Nethercott OD, Razorback/Goodchild, carbon foam/ply decks?

 

please correct and elaborate...

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Sailed Dad's boat for the first time today in a solid 15 knots. Feels like an absolute rocket ship.

 

Super excited to build one.

 

Watch out for me in Richmond. I have not finished soaring.

 

Willy

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you are the youth of today. I have no doubt you will be kickin it for some time to come!

glad the new boat is fast. more than one way to skin a cat...

cheers, Kenny

Sailed Dad's boat for the first time today in a solid 15 knots. Feels like an absolute rocket ship.

 

Super excited to build one.

 

Watch out for me in Richmond. I have not finished soaring.

 

Willy

 

 

 

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Chris or anyone in the know,

 

How did the fancy jib boom thingy perform at the worlds? Did it tip the balance between victory or defeat? Do we all have to get one?

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Every time I was near Chris at the start of a run or reach he pulled away, I am fairly sure this was helped by the new jib boom thing. How much better than a standard jib boom as I had on Monkey or a dangly jib stick like Steve had in Oz I'm not sure. I did not have enough time before the event to make one for dragonfly, but I will have one similar to that on Monkey when I get some work shop time. I suspect that it will not be quite as effective as Chris's set up but it is a lot simpler to use and make. However generally speaking Chris is just plain fast and makes very few mistakes so singling out the jib boom as a must have is prob over simplifying things.

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Its taken forever but finally AUS40 (still need new sail numbers) has hit the water, feel great to sail few changes I made seem to work. The best thing is getting rid of the swing up rudder system and opting for a standard IC system has made launching and retrieving the boat so much easier and it look much neater also.post-21278-057770200 1313965049_thumb.jpg

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More photos to come as I get them....

The beach is at Albury Wodonga Yacht Club on Lake Hume, this is home for me

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Hi Hayden

Looks great, shame you could not make Germany with her, I only made germany because its so close so I know whats its like. San Fran should be a good event so look forward to racing against you there. Should be a bit more practiced by then. Getting the sails re-cut at the moment, the new sails were good in a light wind but a real pain in a blow, too full, they poped me in the drink in a tack (not helped by no practice). Whats the under water shape like? Dragonfly has ended up fairly non-extreme but has loads of lift and seems to work well in the light stuff, heavy weather performance has to wait untill I have a bit more time in the water and got the sails right. I have .stp files of dragonfly and monkey if its of any interest (not quite as built as corners rounded) but a good representation.

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More photos to come as I get them....

The beach is at Albury Wodonga Yacht Club on Lake Hume, this is home for me

Water level is a lot better

SHC

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Roger,

My email address for you doesn't work.

Send me a message with your current address.

I have some thoughts on building to share.

SHC

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For everyone in the NE near the storm surge, good luck-

 

P

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For Jim C. Here are a couple of pictures of the halyard lock I use. They used to be commercially available but I can't find them anymore. It's not too difficult to make and they are rock solid and almost fool proof. I bolt it on but mainly it's held on with a few wraps of carbon tow.

 

It's got that clever wire bail that disengages the halyard when it is hoisted an inch or so past locked. Makes a very satisfying "click."

 

Maybe you can find them in the land of dinghy sailing.

post-16686-013752600 1314671412_thumb.jpg

post-16686-044541900 1314671797_thumb.jpg

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Jim, here are a couple of more pictures of that halyard lock. With luck you will make out the wire bail gizmo that pivots to make a ramp that releases the nico stopper sleeve. And yes, that dyneema halyard tail enters the mast about 100mm below the lock. The halyard runs in the groove of the lock of course. It's just been pulled out for the picture so you could see what's going on.

post-16686-058534200 1314756706_thumb.jpg

post-16686-033549900 1314756722_thumb.jpg

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Jim, here are a couple of more pictures of that halyard lock. With luck you will make out the wire bail gizmo that pivots to make a ramp that releases the nico stopper sleeve. And yes, that dyneema halyard tail enters the mast about 100mm below the lock. The halyard runs in the groove of the lock of course. It's just been pulled out for the picture so you could see what's going on.

 

Is the wire bail spring-loaded so it snaps open and closed?

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Ah, gotcha. So the main has to be able to be pulled a couple of inches above the lock then to trip the bail. Thanks, that's good.

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Chris

You were asking about the tubes and the material I have used to make the mould, try this

http://www.aerovac.com/files/catalog/21_FF03PM.pdf

it might not be exactly what I use as I got it from a local composites shop that "acquired" it from some where, they do similar cloths that are not permiable, so you want the porous type, but how porous I am not sure. You should be able to get it in the states, Aerovac operate there.

post-20243-058806800 1314794122_thumb.jpg

post-20243-014164000 1314794100_thumb.jpg

the tubes do not quite come out round and prob max presure you should use in the tube is 14psi

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Kind of basic questions, but if anyone knows, I have spent HOURS looking at the internets and cannot figure this out-

 

Does urethane stick to Titebond 3?

 

Does urethane stick to Liquid Nails?

 

Does Liquid Nails stick to Titebond 3?

 

Does urethane melt polystyrene?

 

By urethane, I mean sealers or finish products.

 

I am going to run some tests, but that won't tell me anything medium or long term.

 

 

P

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Does urethane melt polystyrene?

At least some polyurethane paints contain solvents that attack polystyrene. No experience of the other things you mention.

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I was trying to find the United States IC website but failed. Could someone in the know please tell me who the committee is and how to make contact. Many thanks.

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Pm sent :)

 

I was trying to find the United States IC website but failed. Could someone in the know please tell me who the committee is and how to make contact. Many thanks.

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Some where in this thread we talked about water flow at the stern and rooster tails etc...

 

I had a suspicion then it was because of my crap design for my hinged rudder system.. after this weekend Im positive that was the case, new boat same rudder position a little further forward in the boat (about 50mm). Now that I have a working rudder system that's easy to get in and out of the boat and in turn fits to the underside of the hull much better (still not perfect) the rooster tail in gone.....

 

Yeah for the conventional IC rudder cassette system.....

 

ICU2

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The rooster tail is clearly faster Hayden. I hope you can figure out how to get it back before Richmond. Didn't you put playing cards on your bike spokes way back when? Faster bike right? Same thing with the rooster tail.

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This one has been dubbed "Gaigen."

Nipponese for "Alien."

Based on the last two enhanced interrogation ply models with most of the odd ball stuff weeded out.

 

post-738-032571900 1323720460_thumb.jpg

From Below:

post-738-053404600 1323720356_thumb.jpg

Perspective views

post-738-097476900 1323720395_thumb.jpg

post-738-069629900 1323720333_thumb.jpg

 

Plan is to offer as plans, jig and part files. Will enable construction in plywood, strip plank or foam and composite.

Let me know.

San Francisco awaits!

SHC

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Nice! I like it.

 

Got those chines way up out of the way forward. A fair bit of rocker forward too which seemed to work well on David Clark's super fine bow version.

 

We're working on a carbon/foam building method here right now that looks really promising. Your design and jigs should be perfect for it.

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How sweet is that!

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Anybody want a deal on some 1.5mm Marine ply from Boulter that I initially bought to make a stressed ply moth but didn't use? It's still in the box collecting dust.

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how much for the plans, jig and part files? what would the estimated cost of a hull & seat be? The design looks good. Do you have a recommended layup schedule?

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Hi all

 

I'm trying something new for steering MCR. It's a carriage mounted tiller that drives the rudder by lines running to the back. The old tiller is still attached 'till I get used to the new system then it's coming off. The tiller extensions aren't fitted but I'll probably go for twin sticks to either side. The lines continue to the front of the cockpit so you can slide the carriage front and back without altering the lines. The tiller pivots at the left hand side of the photo, down low near the pulleys.

 

post-26260-067793100 1324092215_thumb.jpg

 

I did this because my rudder is probably 2' further back than most and I had two issues. First, after a capsize, the extension would wash backwards to leeward and retrieving it normally meant more capsizes. Secondly, because the rudder was so far back, in light air the angle from the front of the cockpit to the tiller was too shallow for comfortable steering.

 

Mounting it on the carriage means a constant angle to the tiller whether carriage forward or back. After a capsize the extension will be lying nicely across the cockpit and easily to hand. I'm not sure if anyone else has done something like this so looking forward to constructive criticism. :unsure:

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Hi all

 

I'm trying something new for steering MCR. It's a carriage mounted tiller that drives the rudder by lines running to the back. The old tiller is still attached 'till I get used to the new system then it's coming off. The tiller extensions aren't fitted but I'll probably go for twin sticks to either side. The lines continue to the front of the cockpit so you can slide the carriage front and back without altering the lines. The tiller pivots at the left hand side of the photo, down low near the pulleys.

 

post-26260-067793100 1324092215_thumb.jpg

 

I did this because my rudder is probably 2' further back than most and I had two issues. First, after a capsize, the extension would wash backwards to leeward and retrieving it normally meant more capsizes. Secondly, because the rudder was so far back, in light air the angle from the front of the cockpit to the tiller was too shallow for comfortable steering.

 

Mounting it on the carriage means a constant angle to the tiller whether carriage forward or back. After a capsize the extension will be lying nicely across the cockpit and easily to hand. I'm not sure if anyone else has done something like this so looking forward to constructive criticism. :unsure:

 

Damn, that's clever.

 

It can't possibly work. But if it does I wonder if getting on and off the seat might be awkward. How about having the tiller come out of the front of the carriage? Steer with your forward hand.

 

I'm not joking.

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I did consider out the front but it meant that the steering was backwards. With it coming out the back you use the same actions (helm down to steer up and visa versa). I could possibly re-jig the rope layout to run it out the front if it's an issue.

 

<edit> Actually, I just thought about it and it doesn't make a difference front or back. Oh, well, back is more natural feeling

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Jethrow,

 

Can you still move your carriage fore and aft? My idea was to mount the tiller post on the deck forward near the centreboard case with the tiller facing aft. In this case when the carriage is right forward the tiller would be over the top of the carriage. This would make the linkage to the rudder easy and would not hinder the carriage movement.

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Hi Mal

 

Yes, the carriage is still fully movable. As the line is basically continuous through the Carriage, as you slide it the line just moves through the system, it's only when you move the tiller that it created a differential and the rudder moves.

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I've wondered about having some kind of ramp arrangement behind the tiller extension so a dropped tiller extension tends to be kept forward. I keep seeing it as likley to end up in broken extensions though... I do seem to fall off the boat in such bizarre ways...

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Geoff,

If the problem is only the issue of the extension going down between the tiller and the lee side of the boat, hence preventing the tiller centreing, and preventing you getting to leeward to retrieve it? then I did end up rather simpler solution on the Log. (deemed serious consideration after spending 10 miutes of serial swimming at the last mark of the Toukley nationals)

I used my moth type extension universal: A 300mm length of mainsheet inserted one end into the end of the extension and the other end into the end of the tiller, all with appropriate bushes,and with only enough rope in the gap to allow for needed flexibility. The extension then can never go down the wrong side of the tiller because its always at the front. If it goes into the water the tiller can always centre itself as the extension simply rolls out to leeward. Its also much cheaper than the propriety fittings.

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Only having sailed these lovely rockets for a little while,my 2c; Self centering rudder helps bunches, and super light, water tight tiller ext also most good, see my tiller ext blog. Don't know how one could sail without self centering, have it on all my toys.

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I found the best solution which is the simplest of the lot is "don't swim"... seriously I have found if the extension can float this usually isn't an issue combined with a self centring system aka a length of shock cord from the end of the tiller (not the extension) to a fixed point in centre of the boat with enough length to get the travel you need and still centre the tiller. Phil's idea sounds good also.

 

The carriage mounted tiller looks interesting and clever but I don't know that the benefits will out way the clutter on the busiest part dance floor, time will tell.

 

ICU2

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Another possible advantage of a forward tiller is that as you tack you have both the mainsheet and the tiller in front of you. Intuitively this might make tacking a bit easier although it remains to be seen how it would pan out in reality.

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Hi Mal

 

Yes, the carriage is still fully movable. As the line is basically continuous through the Carriage, as you slide it the line just moves through the system, it's only when you move the tiller that it created a differential and the rudder moves.

 

That's clever. I'll be interested to see how it goes with friction etc, but theoretically it should work fine.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like your lines are led to the back of the rudder casing. While this works in theory, I'm thinking that the angle the lines are pulling at isn't optimal which is just going to make it harder to move the tiller/rudder. I've seen equivalent systems in boats for disabled sailors, and the lines at the stern are always attached to the tiller (means that the lines are pulling at ~90° to the tiller as opposed to ~45° to the back of the rudder casing). In the case of those boats, the "tiller" is hinged in the middle with the lines attached to the bottom/rear end and the user manipulating the upper/forward end.

 

I know it would take an interesting hinge system, but it would at once help with the force required to steer and moving the tiller forward (was mentioned earlier)... Of course, if you drew it out and thought it through, I'm sure there's a way to design it so the "tiller" comes out the aft side of the seat, the lines attach to the original tiller, and the steering directions don't get reversed...

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Geoff,

If the problem is only the issue of the extension going down between the tiller and the lee side of the boat, hence preventing the tiller centreing, and preventing you getting to leeward to retrieve it? then I did end up rather simpler solution on the Log. (deemed serious consideration after spending 10 miutes of serial swimming at the last mark of the Toukley nationals)

I used my moth type extension universal: A 300mm length of mainsheet inserted one end into the end of the extension and the other end into the end of the tiller, all with appropriate bushes,and with only enough rope in the gap to allow for needed flexibility. The extension then can never go down the wrong side of the tiller because its always at the front. If it goes into the water the tiller can always centre itself as the extension simply rolls out to leeward. Its also much cheaper than the propriety fittings.

 

Phil, does the mainsheet as universal joint have enough torsional stiffness to work for a Moth-style screw adjustment for the rudder horizontal AOA?

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Hi Rhet, yes attached to the back edge of the rudder case. This was done so as to be an easily reversed retrofit in case it doesn't work. It is such a lightly loaded rudder that I went for the simpler version (if you could call it that). The leverage is the same as the normal tiller as the shorter lever arm at the back is matched with the same short discance on the new tiller and the ratio between the pulley placement and the tiller head gives you the leverage. The biggest headache was moving all the blocks around so the lines stayed the same length through all their travel.

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