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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
stinky

DC Designs

3,593 posts in this topic

Hi Chris,

 

indeed the Z-Boats are a class which is active in Germany and Austria. We share an event each year. It is a very small class of traditional wooden boats. 20m². Long and narrow and very low freeboard. So some of them go submarining from time to time. They are very fast and there are some beautiful boats among them.

Some more (german) info: http://www.zboot.net/

 

Arne

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Is there a North American IC class association to join?

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Is there a North American IC class association to join?

You're already in it. We're a 100% libertarian organization. No fees, no paperwork, no services.

 

DRC

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I may even volunteer to help do some of the nothing then. Gotta give back a little.

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The one change that is not a clarification requires no tool removal of the mainsail while the boat is upright. Used to be while afloat. My boat is now non-compliant which makes me unhappy. Rerigging to become compliant is not trivial as I have 3 watertight sections in my mast. I had no notice that rules were a-changing.

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Is there a traditional US east coast circuit calendar of IC events?

 

Where does event planning chatter happen?

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Here, mostly.

 

East Coasties, what do you got? My early summer is looking busy but late summer for sure. I'd love to do one or two down here if we have players.

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What diameter rod rigging are people using? Will 2.5mm diameter be man enough?

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Hi Chris

I am sure I am on 3.5mm 7 x 1 dyform, but this is a bit over kill, I think Phil Robin uses 2.5 dyform, not sure about rod.... yet to experiment but like the idea of 3mm carbon rod and 3mm ti rod but don't really need any improvement on what I have.

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I have used 2.5 and 3mm rod. Swedging the ends is the tricky bit. As a rule of thumb, you can drop one size when converting from 1x19 cable. The metal area is almost the same. You get the advantage of less construction related stretch, but it is nnot as profound as if you maintain the diameter when you substitute the rod for cable. Dyeform is not as dense as rod and has less construction creep than 1x19, so I would not suggest the same size reduction formula. I maintain the same diameter and realize less stretch.

SHC

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Well I will go with the 2.5mm rod, I will leave the swedging to the boys at the local riggers. Apparently there is a special technique that they are a bit hush about, but they have a great reputation. Harken Ha300 1" wire blocks should be strong enough to run the high load end of the shroud adjustment. Need to get the rig up to measure the fore triangle so I can pass all the measurements on to Frank Rowsell to make the sails. His lead time will more than likely dictate when I launch.

 

Chris H

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I've recently got Aus 32 back on the water and I'm looking to get a new set of sails. (Need to train for the worlds you see...)

 

Before I do - I want a Jib boom, and may need to make sure the Jib design factors this in.

 

I've been thinking about Black Betty's Jib boom and although I like it, I think you need to be better than me at boat building to integrate it into the hull. I am thinking of something that can be retrofitted to any hull - so I can use something similar on my Nethercott as well, with no hull modification. I don't like the droopy one and the UK style seems to need more things hanging of the mast and lines to control it.

 

I think my design might work, if factored into the sail design, and it should be passive rather than needing control lines - as inspired by Black Betty

 

UK%20Jib%20Boom.jpg

 

Hanging%20Jib%20Boom.jpg

 

Raven%20Jib%20Boom.jpg

 

Black%20Betty%20Jib%20Boom.jpg

 

My%20Idea%20Jib%20Boom.jpg

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I don't think that will work as the forces will deflect the forestay and mess up your jib luff

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Are the upward forces on the jib boom that significant?

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Do what we do and just have the jib made with the battens angled perpendicular to the forestay. It's the lightest, cleanest and most robust solution. Its not tuneable, but tuning isn't everything.

 

DRC

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That's very clever Stefan.

 

I think it's worth a try. It would be fairly simple to make. Important details include getting it as low as possible and allowing it to swivel freely. I'd figure out a way to test it with your old jib first.

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My%20Idea%20Jib%20Boom.jpg

 

I've been mulling over something like this, but the conclusion I keep coming to is that anything that is attached to the forestay will distort the jib quite as badly as a wishbone boom, in which case you may as well just do that - which has been tried and abandoned a few times.. I've sort of had in my mind a slotted carbon tube in a fordeck socket that's concentric to the forestay, and free to rotate so that the jib comes out from the slot and shape unaffected, and leech tension is adjusted from a forward extension of the boom, but with a line just going a few inches to the top of the tube and back down and under the foredeck. I was also thinking a wishbone boom so that the jib can be genuinely closed to the deck. The engineering feels very challenging though.

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Sezed, I have been mulling over this for some time. I have tried using the "uk" style jib boom, and the dangly stick, the dangly stick worked best but required too much adjustment. I have alternated in championships between the jib boom and none at all. I am not convinced of the effectiveness. For certain there is some benefit, and perhaps more if you had a larger jib, I am on about 2.15m2, for ease of use however its nicer without. I also do not wish to add structure to the front of my boat. Have not had much time to experiment recently but I think there might be another solution, perhaps it's just as Dave says, jib batterns.... simple is usually best

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I think your idea was tried by the current owner of "Monkey" Not sure that he has kept it on the boat much longer. You also lack tuning ability, whilst not essential when underway you do need to get the jib leach tension correct for the wind strength. I suspect that the future will be no jib boom with a set up such as what Dave Clark describes.

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Its worth noting that you can probably tune the angled battens by tensioning a control line or bungee in the batten pocket against the central one.

 

DRC

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Has anyone considered a full swing rig as seen in RC / Marbleheads?

 

I know their design case utilises small loads but their refinement and super clean aero resolution cannot be but admired.

 

The complexity of it would be offset by the ability to maintain the slot effect of jib to main in a permanent manner, even when sailing broad angles.

The loads and jib luff deflection are constantly managed and High Modulus carbon may resolve the weight vs. spreader need. Might even allow a small chord wing mast to over rotate on the mast axis.

And, ultimately for a single hander just one control line (mainsheet) needs to be routed to the helm, saving significant amount of fittings and aggro.

Structurally, the hull becomes a simpler deal with loads concentrated between mast stump and rudder in the primary instance which encases the support for CB and sliding seat attachments. The lack of forestay and chain plates being a significant payoff (if the rig stability and stiffness can be resolved on an unstayed solution).

 

The radio guys tune their rigs prior to race and then concentrate on other issues in the actual race - which would have distinct advantages in this class.......

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Has anyone considered a full swing rig as seen in RC / Marbleheads?

 

Been tried a good many occasions over the decades. Doesn't seem to work well at all. Might well be something back in the thread somewhere. ISTR SHC has practical experience.

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Though it wasn't widely covered by the main stream media I won the '11 IC worlds with a swing rig. Actually it was more of a swing jib - the jib swing was de-coupled from the main boom. It worked reasonably well. I figure it sped me up downwind a bit and slowed me upwind. I put a honkin' big window in the jib but when that got a little salt spray on it it was hard to see the waves downwind - which, surprise, is really important.

post-16686-0-90712100-1492271143_thumb.jpeg

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Though it wasn't widely covered by the main stream media I won the '11 IC worlds with a swing rig. Actually it was more of a swing jib - the jib swing was de-coupled from the main boom. It worked reasonably well. I figure it sped me up downwind a bit and slowed me upwind. I put a honkin' big window in the jib but when that got a little salt spray on it it was hard to see the waves downwind - which, surprise, is really important.

I remember. As a perpetually light guy I don't often feel powerless to stop people off the wind in 6-10 knots. I even felt fast with my new ultra pointy boat. It was all useless against Angel of Attack, especially with the swing jib engaged. Extra points for it looking like a carbon crossbow.

 

DRC

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Has anyone considered a full swing rig as seen in RC / Marbleheads?

 

I know their design case utilises small loads but their refinement and super clean aero resolution cannot be but admired.

 

The complexity of it would be offset by the ability to maintain the slot effect of jib to main in a permanent manner, even when sailing broad angles.

The loads and jib luff deflection are constantly managed and High Modulus carbon may resolve the weight vs. spreader need. Might even allow a small chord wing mast to over rotate on the mast axis.

And, ultimately for a single hander just one control line (mainsheet) needs to be routed to the helm, saving significant amount of fittings and aggro.

Structurally, the hull becomes a simpler deal with loads concentrated between mast stump and rudder in the primary instance which encases the support for CB and sliding seat attachments. The lack of forestay and chain plates being a significant payoff (if the rig stability and stiffness can be resolved on an unstayed solution).

 

The radio guys tune their rigs prior to race and then concentrate on other issues in the actual race - which would have distinct advantages in this class.......

One of the problems with scaling up the radio controlled swing rigs is that as you sheet out in a gust the jib backs.... not great. Also a huge load goes through the pivoting rig. Almost everything has been tired in canoes..... the standard set up is generally hard to beat.

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I seem to recall the winner of the last worlds had no jib-boomy-thing at all.

 

Don't recall much from the second-place guy either

 

I confess very little knowledge of how to make an IC go downwind in light air, but in breeze it seemed leech tension on that postage stamp of a jib was fairly close to irrelevant.

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I did use a wishbone boom on my jib at the last worlds. It doesn't do much on the windy reaches but it does help on the runs.

post-16686-0-48640600-1492451547.png

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Any reason not to plug my masthead with a bit of bog and kitty hairs and tighten up the gaps around the sheave box? There aren't any significant holes in the rest of the spar so maybe the tube won't fill very fast anyway?

 

esl0YCBh.jpg

 

 

 

edit- i suppose I'll want the end open to fish a new halyard some day, so maybe just glue a cork in?

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Any reason not to plug my masthead with a bit of bog and kitty hairs and tighten up the gaps around the sheave box? There aren't any significant holes in the rest of the spar so maybe the tube won't fill very fast anyway?

 

esl0YCBh.jpg

 

 

 

edit- i suppose I'll want the end open to fish a new halyard some day, so maybe just glue a cork in?

If you can find the right diameter cap with interior grooves, the absolute professional thing to do is glue in a cap, but thick bog will do the trick fine.

 

DRC

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I did use a wishbone boom on my jib at the last worlds. It doesn't do much on the windy reaches but it does help on the runs.

 

Chris got any larger/better pics of this set up?

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I did use a wishbone boom on my jib at the last worlds. It doesn't do much on the windy reaches but it does help on the runs.

 

Chris got any larger/better pics of this set up?

 

 

Sorry B. I couldn't find any.

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Anyone ever used a seat profile like the orange one in this image?

possible pros/cons?

carbon/foam construction

seat.jpeg

 

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The concave top has been tried. It seems like it could be a good thing for keeping you attached to the seat. Arne Stahl's boat has it and I believe the new Morrison 3 does too.

The curved bottom will get sucked down whenever it hits the water. Maybe you could incorporate a planing step? Or just don't let it touch down.

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1 hour ago, Chris Maas said:

The concave top has been tried. It seems like it could be a good thing for keeping you attached to the seat. Arne Stahl's boat has it and I believe the new Morrison 3 does too.

The curved bottom will get sucked down whenever it hits the water. Maybe you could incorporate a planing step? Or just don't let it touch down.

The concave top was the key element of the design I was after.... I will definitely keep this aspect.

In my quest for circular - or rather spherical symmetry - I didn't even think of that - the getting sucked down bit - just like an upside-down aeroplane wing I suppose... Back to the drawing board :-)

I was kind of inspired by a study of the Sydney Opera House  that described the inherent strength of spherical arcs, as you can see in the linked video, from about 16:37. I'm not an engineer, but it seemed like a good idea.

Of course,I didn't consider hydrodynamics.

 

 

 

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single surface seat.pdf

Many moons ago I thought this might bee a cool way to build a seat.

Essentially 3 big piles of uni carbon connected by a double curved carbon nomex panel.  I never bothered too run the numbers, but in theory it is the same as a triangular truss.  Heel cups would be very shallow core drops and the whole thing could , more or less, be built in a single laminating step the skins would be about twice as heavy as the current seats because there is no inside skin.

The biggest disadvantage I could see was the total lack of buoyancy, which would make it still easier to screw up.

 

SHC

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tweaked... 

New%20Seat%20Design_zpsiwm355ub.jpeg

I-Beam structure in the guts for strength and hopefully this one would have enough of an edge that won't suck down if it hits the water

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So, the worlds in Phllheli, not long now. We have some 20 or so people signed up on the worlds web site http://icworlds2017.com/, who else is on the way? Notice of race is on there as well and entry forms.

There will be some new M3 designs that are looking fast, any other new developments on the way? Here in the UK we have or nationals at Weymouth at the end of the month, a chance for the UK boats to tune up, for me it will be the first time the boat gets wet this year.....

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I'm bringing my Machete.
 

Machete.png

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No boats from downunder however there are a couple of from OZ looking at chartering boats... I wont make to these Worlds :( no longer having a new rules boat doesnt help my cause...

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What does it cost to ship an IC from usa to Wales? Crate it and send it by sea? Do you try to sell it rather than ship it home again? 

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Hi Dex

Normally we put about 12 in a 40 foot container, when we came from the UK to Richmond it was about £900 for the round trip each, that was all inclusive  and we kept the container on site to use for storage which costs a bit more. I think in the past the East coast and the West coast USA have done there own containers?

 

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When both kids are out of college and paying their way, then I can think about it. Unless it is in Newport!  :-)

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Have not given up on getting there just yet, will be looking for a charter boat and a bed (or bar wench) once life's little hurdles are ironed out.

Brett

AUS33

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I'll be there with my new boat Bagheera. May not have sailed it much (if at all) so this could be a weird regatta for me.

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Design Tweaked....

I'm expecting lots of build techniques tips at Pwllheli!

you know - little things like what weight reinforcing to use etc etc...

And I'll be taking pictures of all your deck layouts etc for stealing your ideas

PortOverhead_zpscv80dfud.jpg

Port%20Beam_zps4mlkdfpn.jpg

Overhead%20View_zpsfs5bezkw.jpg

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On 7/6/2017 at 6:51 PM, Willy Clark said:

I'll be there with my new boat Bagheera. May not have sailed it much (if at all) so this could be a weird regatta for me.

Hi Willy

You're not the only one, since last year have only sailed our nationals, boat could do with some TLC, had to have the sails patched after the first day, its all falling apart a bit, but still looking forward to a weeks sailing!

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All those coming to the worlds need to pre-enter. I'm sure all the guys coming from abroad will have done this but us in the UK are used to entering events on the day, entry for this event ends at the end of this month! Just done mine.. prob the most likely person to forget...

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So with the worlds just a wee bit away I thought I'd bump us back to the top. ;)

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I'm heavily into the design of my new hull and hit many crossroads of compromise (might be a boat name there).. how fine is too fine and how far do I push the envelope... I really want to get rid of those pesky winglets no matter how hard I try they keep appearing and keep getting larger the more I want to try and push the envelope,.. 

I remember sailing string theory after the 08 Worlds and felt the winglets dig in and the boat take off once clear this was something I wanted to avoid, Miracle Drug and Acrobat didnt dig in like what I remember from the one short sail way back in 08 just wondering how the new range of boats winglets have handled this or is just part of the new boats we will come to accept as the compromise worth putting up with...

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Assuming a modern composite rig and seat etc, what's the target hull weight to get to minimum?

My previous boat was only a couple of kg's over but I didn't record any weights of the other parts so I can't remember the hull weight.

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Also, did anyone do some sneaky measurements of things like rig placement ranges and sail area ratios? ;)

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Nope too drunk for that, want to measure something, best turn up yourself.

next year big champs will be Berlin for euros and as yet tbc is Plymouth for UK Nat's.

Next worlds aus but I understand there is a difference of opinion over venu. I hope the venu with cheaper accommodation will win as that will decide the fleet size.

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3 hours ago, chrishampe said:

Nope too drunk for that, want to measure something, best turn up yourself.

next year big champs will be Berlin for euros and as yet tbc is Plymouth for UK Nat's.

Next worlds aus but I understand there is a difference of opinion over venu. I hope the venu with cheaper accommodation will win as that will decide the fleet size.

The goal is to choose the venue to make it as affordable as possible without compromising quality beyond a fair standard, cost of shipping accommodation etc are all being considered to choose the best location (not personal favorites..) There is more happening behind the scenes for the benefit of all then some tend to want to believe... 

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4 hours ago, Jethrow said:

Assuming a modern composite rig and seat etc, what's the target hull weight to get to minimum?

My previous boat was only a couple of kg's over but I didn't record any weights of the other parts so I can't remember the hull weight.

around the 20kg mark is my aim give or take a few depending on the rig fitting layout.... so many options to consider...

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Updates from a really fun week of IC sailing in Wales:

Robin sailed a wonderful regatta and took home his fourth IC World Championship, edging out Chris who had a couple tough moments which cost him. Robin has bought Chris' boat Black Betty, so may be getting even faster! The rest of the IC fleet trembles at the thought of it. Meanwhile Chris will be building another new machine. The only thing that has been determined is the color (electric orange).

Garreth sailed two absolutely terrific races to take home the New York Cup. Chris and I fought hard with Alistair, but Garreth was out of reach. He's going really well in his Maas design put together by Andy Patterson, and sailed a great regatta before a breakdown in the final race cost him a potential spot on the podium. Colin Brown is also fast as ever in his Maas/Patterson boat. Guy could pass me on a reach in his sleep.

Further updates from the UK - the new Morrison design looks pretty flash. Dave Timson, Chris Hampe, and Steve Clarke are all going well. Meanwhile Alistair's Dragonfly design seems to be getting better every year. He has gotten even faster down reaches. Furthermore he and Phil never seem to capsize. Three 3rds in three tries for Alistair. Charlie Chandler and Mike Fenwick are making their M1s go fast. Finally John Ellis' design is pretty sweet and points like a demon.

As for the Germans - Peter Ullman is as fast as ever. Flies down reaches, and seemingly sails directly into the wind on the beat. He's fast AF. And he just bought himself a new hull from Chris. Annette did well in String Theory (boat still beautiful). Meanwhile a bunch of the younger Germans (Anton, Emma, Hauke) are all making strides. All competed well. And Freddy spent the week measuring everything in sight so he can build himself a new design.

The Aussies - Brett "The Thunder from Down Under" Holly may have had more fun than anyone at the regatta (both on shore and on the water). And in between capsizes Stefan was f---ing fast in Hellcat (borrowed from Lt. Steve Gay of the USA). Lots of excitement from Oz for the next Worlds.

And finally, for the USA - Chris had some brilliant moments. Had a couple of unfortunate setbacks which cost him. Todd was a force in the heavy air. Struggled a bit with the chop in the light stuff. Dad was quick in the light stuff in Machete. Not as quick in the heavy air. I meanwhile suffered the expected new boat breakdowns which happen when you show up to a regatta with a boat you've never sailed. These issues were compounded by me twisting my ankle falling off Anton's skateboard on Wednesday (I'm too old to be this stupid. Was having too much fun). In the times when I had my act together, the boat felt really really fast. But obviously it wasn't much of a regatta for me. Knew it going in, and had a good time in spite of it all. We're thinking of pulling a mold off Bagheera (Carbon version of Dance Commander). Those interested in a pulling a hull let me know. Also Dance Commander and Machete are for sale to the right buyer (we'd love to keep them on the east coast if at all possible).

My overall thought on designs is - it seems that they've gotten close enough together that it's mostly down to the quality of the sailors, which is what you'd want. Different designs and different sailors excel in different conditions. 

I'm currently posted up at Alistair Alsdair's home for wayward canoe sailors in Manchester with Freddy and Charlotte waiting for my flight tomorrow morning. Great week. Went by too fast. Can't wait for 2020 in Australia.

Best,

Willy

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Great write Up Willy,

Can't wait to see what you are capable of in 2020 once the new boat blues are squared away. Don't forget to bring your brother!

Now to get some builds happening in AUS.

Because I don't think I capsized enough at Pwllheli, I'm thinking something really unstable to help me capsize more...

Or I could take the sensible option and go for a SST build, and then learn how to keep it upright.

 

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2 hours ago, Willy Clark said:

Updates from a really fun week of IC sailing in Wales:

Robin sailed a wonderful regatta and took home his fourth IC World Championship, edging out Chris who had a couple tough moments which cost him. Robin has bought Chris' boat Black Betty, so may be getting even faster! The rest of the IC fleet trembles at the thought of it. Meanwhile Chris will be building another new machine. The only thing that has been determined is the color (electric orange).

Garreth sailed two absolutely terrific races to take home the New York Cup. Chris and I fought hard with Alistair, but Garreth was out of reach. He's going really well in his Maas design put together by Andy Patterson, and sailed a great regatta before a breakdown in the final race cost him a potential spot on the podium. Colin Brown is also fast as ever in his Maas/Patterson boat. Guy could pass me on a reach in his sleep.

Further updates from the UK - the new Morrison design looks pretty flash. Dave Timson, Chris Hampe, and Steve Clarke are all going well. Meanwhile Alistair's Dragonfly design seems to be getting better every year. He has gotten even faster down reaches. Furthermore he and Phil never seem to capsize. Three 3rds in three tries for Alistair. Charlie Chandler and Mike Fenwick are making their M1s go fast. Finally John Ellis' design is pretty sweet and points like a demon.

As for the Germans - Peter Ullman is as fast as ever. Flies down reaches, and seemingly sails directly into the wind on the beat. He's fast AF. And he just bought himself a new hull from Chris. Annette did well in String Theory (boat still beautiful). Meanwhile a bunch of the younger Germans (Anton, Emma, Hauke) are all making strides. All competed well. And Freddy spent the week measuring everything in sight so he can build himself a new design.

The Aussies - Brett "The Thunder from Down Under" Holly may have had more fun than anyone at the regatta (both on shore and on the water). And in between capsizes Stefan was f---ing fast in Hellcat (borrowed from Lt. Steve Gay of the USA). Lots of excitement from Oz for the next Worlds.

And finally, for the USA - Chris had some brilliant moments. Had a couple of unfortunate setbacks which cost him. Todd was a force in the heavy air. Struggled a bit with the chop in the light stuff. Dad was quick in the light stuff in Machete. Not as quick in the heavy air. I meanwhile suffered the expected new boat breakdowns which happen when you show up to a regatta with a boat you've never sailed. These issues were compounded by me twisting my ankle falling off Anton's skateboard on Wednesday (I'm too old to be this stupid. Was having too much fun). In the times when I had my act together, the boat felt really really fast. But obviously it wasn't much of a regatta for me. Knew it going in, and had a good time in spite of it all. We're thinking of pulling a mold off Bagheera (Carbon version of Dance Commander). Those interested in a pulling a hull let me know. Also Dance Commander and Machete are for sale to the right buyer (we'd love to keep them on the east coast if at all possible).

My overall thought on designs is - it seems that they've gotten close enough together that it's mostly down to the quality of the sailors, which is what you'd want. Different designs and different sailors excel in different conditions. 

I'm currently posted up at Alistair Alsdair's home for wayward canoe sailors in Manchester with Freddy and Charlotte waiting for my flight tomorrow morning. Great week. Went by too fast. Can't wait for 2020 in Australia.

Best,

Willy

A note on this. After discussing the last few years of Machete with dad after this last event, we've concluded it hits its objective in competition, but is way too big a hassle as a box full of part. Files (build manual and hull files for a CNC machine) will be available for sale at drastically low prices from now on. I'd still be down to laminate carbon/foam plates and carve carbon Machetes but my business sucks away all of my time. Couldn't even make the event.

DRC 

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And from the old man.

We will sell the DXF files and a license to build boats at US$ 100. 

Because someone will inevitably want to build a carbon fiber one, I will sort out a set of external frames that the

 panels can be fit into without using the internal structure as the building structure.  Should be pretty easy.

The elders are thinking nice thoughts about a little more stability.  Remember that the olddevelopment rule allowed boats as skinny as the new rules (750mm)  and the boat that emerged as "best compromise" was 1014 mm wide. So I had been meditating about what I can do in a beamier hull form. It will probably give something away upwind and in a short chop, but There isn't much slower than a capsized IC. I have an idea, based on Lou Whitman's Phoenix that was probably faster than the Nethercot in 1970, but never got much of a chance after the ICF made the Nethercot the only approved shape.

Willy is playing a little fast and lose with his Dad's time. We always get excited by the World's and unfortunately, the either energy of the event dissipates or my contributions somehow miss their mark. The result that I spend a bunch of time and money creating something that nobody wants. I am pretty addicted to my own dope but don't have much luck getting others to take a taste.

SHC

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Wow, great value there!

When you're talking about the elders, after looking at the podium I can only think you're targeting the 80+ group? ^_^

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Dear Worlds Competitors and Boatbuilders, 
It would be awfully good to have a tech listing of boats at the worlds, or at least top ten or 20, to go on the int website. I'd like design, designer, builder and Hull construction, mast maker and model if poss, sailmaker and foil builders. 
ACs and Taifun too please.
 

For anyone who is really keen, and feels like posting dimensions for the benefit of prospective builders and designers then mast face distance from the bow, and furthest forward and furthest back seat position are probably the most important, followed by, if you can manage it, the distance from bow or stern to max chine beam/waterline beam, plus the beam at that point if its more than minimum.

Message me here, post on the http://www.intcanoe.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1886&sid=d520a7f600411133c8bb5e3a0a8a9fc9 forum, or Facebook, message me with any one of those or use the message webmaster link on any of the class pages, it will all reach me.

thanks, Jim C

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14 hours ago, JimC said:

Dear Worlds Competitors and Boatbuilders, 
It would be awfully good to have a tech listing of boats at the worlds, or at least top ten or 20, to go on the int website. I'd like design, designer, builder and Hull construction, mast maker and model if poss, sailmaker and foil builders. 
ACs and Taifun too please.
 

For anyone who is really keen, and feels like posting dimensions for the benefit of prospective builders and designers then mast face distance from the bow, and furthest forward and furthest back seat position are probably the most important, followed by, if you can manage it, the distance from bow or stern to max chine beam/waterline beam, plus the beam at that point if its more than minimum.

Message me here, post on the http://www.intcanoe.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1886&sid=d520a7f600411133c8bb5e3a0a8a9fc9 forum, or Facebook, message me with any one of those or use the message webmaster link on any of the class pages, it will all reach me.

thanks, Jim C

16th place, Machete, 
Design: SHC Crazy Ivan
Build: Fulcrum Speedworks llc
Mast: Composite Engineering tiraxial braid, high modulus spar (ted vandusen).
Sails: Evil Empire (North Sails)
Foils: Fulcrum Speedworks llc
Seat: East Coast Standard

Might I suggest a shared Google Sheets document?

Frankly I'm getting really pumped for a surge in rig development over the next few years. Maybe I'll get a spare hour free from my peoples foilers to do something foolish next year.

DRC
 

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I have had similar thoughts.  Seems there might be a sweet spot between a Nethercott where you can take a passenger and a new rules boat where one needs to be very deliberate about even getting the rudder down.

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Haha I was also thinking about this problem of Big Guys as I wobbled my way around the course at Nationals. In a Nethercott.
The speed differential between Nethercott and New Rules is striking. But I have almost twice the moveable horsepower of the best sailors. OK maybe noit that much but still at well over 200 lbs there is a lot of power. When the wind is there. The problem is that the Nethercott is too blunt. (actually the problem is that the helmsman--me--is too dense).
So my idea that I haven't drawn yet is to essentially figure out what the 0 to 30 degree righting arms look like on Dance Commander with your typical superflyweight pro canoeist, and then pretty much match that curve for my heavier weight.
In simple terms, and what I will probably do: draw something a little wider than 750. Haha.
But will I build it?
Other than a motorboat, do I have any of my own designs in my fleet?

No. Time to make that a yes. Maybe. Someday.

On the other hand I am very happy that there is a Nethercott "division" as it were.

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On 29/08/2017 at 2:15 AM, Dave Clark said:

Might I suggest a shared Google Sheets document?

 
I did this, and its going staggeringly well. Link on the forum or on FB. It has just occurred to me that I missed one significant detail - whether the mast is stepped on a stump, with the gooseneck on the stump, on the deck or even on the floor.
 
If folk could go back and see if there are any new fields that they can fill in it would be great.
 

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Is the development seat longer than the Nethercott seat?

(looking at the photos from IC Worlds)

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Seats extend the same distance from centerline, so should be cross platform compatible.The only caveat is that because the new boats can be narrower than the Nethercotts, the actual extension out the side of the boat is greater. 750mm beam compared to 1014mm beam.  So the seat is cantilevered about 130 mm more on minimum beam boat than on a Nethercott. 

The measurement of all of the bits is pretty much identical between the one design and the development rules, rig height, centerboard depth, sail area, seat extension etc were kept consistent with their historical precedents.  I rounded some things off to more convenient numbers, but the intent was that any boat that ever measured in would continue to measure in.

SHC

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Canoes have always been the only monohull on my bucket list and who knows, with a worlds in Australia, maybe an old dog (cat sailor) can learn new tricks. I realise that sailing skill will make far more difference than any design differences of the top boats, but can somebody answer some questions even if some are a bit hypothetical. My thinking is that I would need to either import a boat or build over here and if you are going to do that, you might as well go for the "ultimate" in competitiveness. So what does that competitive boat look like?

The Clark designed Machete looks to be a very realistic way of getting a boat. The first question is whether it really is competitive in the right hands. assuming equally as good sailors, can it hang with the other leading designs? In almost all classes I sail or follow, plywood boats have a disadvantage over composite boats, even if it is small difference. Does this apply to the Canoes? I can see that the Mass boats are composite, but are any of the other leading designs plywood? I note Steve talks about the possibility of building a composite Machete from the plans. Would that have any advantage over a plywood one? I like the idea of building a Machete, because it is so well thought out and although i have some practical skills, i have never built a boat before, but are there any other designs suitable for home build even if they aren't as well thought out.

Thanks.

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A-Class,

It seems there are a few of us thinking about a new IC build in preparation for the 2020 worlds in AUS. The key ones are contactable via the stalkbook AUS IC page. 

Perhaps it may be a good idea for some of us to unite with a build effort. Of course that would require us to agree on what hull to go with... we all seem to want something different.

I would strongly recommend picking up one of the cheap Nethercotts that are around and giving that a try for a while before commencing a build. Just to see if it's what you want to do, the Nethercott is more stable to transition on and there are some available at very low cost if you know where to look.

But if you are keen on a new rules build.

The Machete would be a sensible option for a first build. It's a proven design and there is a build manual and files/kit readily available from Fulcrum. I've seen it in action and its awesome. I would say it is very competitive in the right hands. Sure whooped my ass and I was sailing a good boat. If you were going to go it on your own, a Machete is a really good idea - as all the problems have been solved - as in rig and fit out design. Do what the build manual says. Any other design and you will probably get a decent hull shape, but the rest of the problem - the fittings, the lay out, the carriage and rails etc - well that will all be up to you to solve. It's part of the fun of the IC - I can't wait to build mine and try things the way I want them, but I have had a few IC's, and sailed some other ones, to see how different things work - thus the original recommendation to grab a cheap working nethercott as a starting point.

The Maas Hulls are glorious. They are fast and beautiful. Composite, Strong etc etc. But again, you would have to figure out how to build a hull to Chris's table of offsets and figure out how you want it fitted out.

If you are really keen to try a funky build - Phil Stevenson's Hollow Log Design, or a modification of it, like AUS 33 MCR, is always an option. He has posted links to his guide earlier in this post. PM me if you can't find it and if you are interested. I have one of these too, and it is far trickier to sail than any of the other IC's I've sailed. Fast off the wind, but tricky. Again, this would require you to figure out how you want to fit it out. Machete has already solved all the problems.

The Flat Pack IC's are an option too, but since Christian is potentially thinking of a different design, then maybe not. I have one, and I like it a lot. But I'm not at the top of the fleet either.

So if you are new to the class and want to get sailing an IC in Aus prior to the 2020 Worlds here's my thoughts:

1. Grab a cheap and working Nethercott and give it a go!

2. Join the Aus IC Stalkbook Page - and the IC stalkbook page too. Potential there to pool ideas and resources on builds.

3. If you want to jump in the deep end with a new rules - seriously consider the Machete. It is the goods. The Clarks are awesome and so is their product.

4. Get creative. Grab a copy of the rules from the UK IC website and come up with your own design and give it a try. This is what I want to do, but I do so knowing I have a Nethercott and a Flatpack to fall back on when by design craps out. 

5. You could import a new rules IC from the UK or the US. There are a few in each country for sale. The hard part here is the shipping to AUS is prohibitive. 

PM me for specific details if you want POC's etc

 

 

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Well said Sezed

One thing I might propose to the Aussie builders, as I know we will want to do our own thing, is to maybe agree on some standard cockpit dimensions that will allow some common tooling for things like the carriage, and if that's too hard then maybe a standard seat mold that we can use. I know from my build that those parts were some of the hardest.

Jethrow

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On 9/3/2017 at 1:57 PM, SEZED said:

A-Class,

It seems there are a few of us thinking about a new IC build in preparation for the 2020 worlds in AUS. The key ones are contactable via the stalkbook AUS IC page. 

Perhaps it may be a good idea for some of us to unite with a build effort. Of course that would require us to agree on what hull to go with... we all seem to want something different.

I would strongly recommend picking up one of the cheap Nethercotts that are around and giving that a try for a while before commencing a build. Just to see if it's what you want to do, the Nethercott is more stable to transition on and there are some available at very low cost if you know where to look.

But if you are keen on a new rules build.

The Machete would be a sensible option for a first build. It's a proven design and there is a build manual and files/kit readily available from Fulcrum. I've seen it in action and its awesome. I would say it is very competitive in the right hands. Sure whooped my ass and I was sailing a good boat. If you were going to go it on your own, a Machete is a really good idea - as all the problems have been solved - as in rig and fit out design. Do what the build manual says. Any other design and you will probably get a decent hull shape, but the rest of the problem - the fittings, the lay out, the carriage and rails etc - well that will all be up to you to solve. It's part of the fun of the IC - I can't wait to build mine and try things the way I want them, but I have had a few IC's, and sailed some other ones, to see how different things work - thus the original recommendation to grab a cheap working nethercott as a starting point.

The Maas Hulls are glorious. They are fast and beautiful. Composite, Strong etc etc. But again, you would have to figure out how to build a hull to Chris's table of offsets and figure out how you want it fitted out.

If you are really keen to try a funky build - Phil Stevenson's Hollow Log Design, or a modification of it, like AUS 33 MCR, is always an option. He has posted links to his guide earlier in this post. PM me if you can't find it and if you are interested. I have one of these too, and it is far trickier to sail than any of the other IC's I've sailed. Fast off the wind, but tricky. Again, this would require you to figure out how you want to fit it out. Machete has already solved all the problems.

The Flat Pack IC's are an option too, but since Christian is potentially thinking of a different design, then maybe not. I have one, and I like it a lot. But I'm not at the top of the fleet either.

So if you are new to the class and want to get sailing an IC in Aus prior to the 2020 Worlds here's my thoughts:

1. Grab a cheap and working Nethercott and give it a go!

2. Join the Aus IC Stalkbook Page - and the IC stalkbook page too. Potential there to pool ideas and resources on builds.

3. If you want to jump in the deep end with a new rules - seriously consider the Machete. It is the goods. The Clarks are awesome and so is their product.

4. Get creative. Grab a copy of the rules from the UK IC website and come up with your own design and give it a try. This is what I want to do, but I do so knowing I have a Nethercott and a Flatpack to fall back on when by design craps out. 

5. You could import a new rules IC from the UK or the US. There are a few in each country for sale. The hard part here is the shipping to AUS is prohibitive. 

PM me for specific details if you want POC's etc

 

 

+1...

If you need any help you can also pm me also.. I'm designing and building yet another new rules IC for myself happy to make more for others who like what they see in my boats... my last boat got me to 6th in the World (2014) I think it was capable of more my limited preparation held my boat back more then design.. Like any design there is always scope for improvement :)... 

exciting times for IC's in Australia with people getting back in the boats and new people joining into the fun...

 

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As that fine doyen of Australian advertising Big Kev used to say, "I'm Excited" ! :D

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12 hours ago, Jethrow said:

As that fine doyen of Australian advertising Big Kev used to say, "I'm Excited" ! :D

Jethrow,  MCR-2020 first impressions was sweet, my thought is the compromise looking for sailability across the range where I would err on a longer max waterline width. Nipping in the transom or lifting the chine to aid lighter wind trim.

 

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Yeah, I didn't mention that the chine is 30mm higher on those drawings but I see what you're saying about the stern width.

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Hi All,

What scantling is used in the ply only IC's to get a boat down to 50kg sailing weight? I.e shell thickness, bulkhead thickness and spacing. Also Stringer scantling.

Cheers!
 

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3mm Gaboon for MCR. No stringers and minimal (polystyrene) bulkheads. Used the tensioning of the skin caused by the torturing process to keep rigidity.

Like Phil, 200g double bias carbon from mast bulkhead to back of seat track to combat torsional forces from sailing with the seat at the back in high winds.

Kevlar under the cockpit floor to stop me putting my feet through but I personally wouldn't use Kevlar again, too much of a pain to work with.

Still came out a bit under 55kg's in measurement trim (from memory). Probably had some added weight by trying to keep the ply clear finished

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Volume aft not noticeable exept when going back to put the rudder down, then very useful. I had not realised that was 10 years ago. Zoltan still has the boat, he can report on how it survises today.

 

 

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On 10/09/2017 at 5:20 PM, Daniel Holman said:

Cheers guys how about the stringer frame boats i.e. as distinct from stressed ply - Machete etc

For details - check out the Machete thread:

Plenty of details on that thread about the how and why for a Machete boat - as in a ply with frames boat as opposed to Phil's Stressed Ply style boats

 

 

 

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One thing that strikes me. I have done some weight comparisons between plywood and carbon/foam sandwich panels and the composite panels seem to be a significant weight saving. I presume that with the machete, you could simply substitute composite panels for the plywood. You could simply laminate up one side of the foam on a bench and then use that panel in the same way as the ply but with tape instead of stringers. Once the hull is made, you flip it over and laminate the outer skins. You end up with a lighter and stronger boat. Other than needing different skills, what have I got wrong?

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6 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

One thing that strikes me. I have done some weight comparisons between plywood and carbon/foam sandwich panels and the composite panels seem to be a significant weight saving. I presume that with the machete, you could simply substitute composite panels for the plywood. You could simply laminate up one side of the foam on a bench and then use that panel in the same way as the ply but with tape instead of stringers. Once the hull is made, you flip it over and laminate the outer skins. You end up with a lighter and stronger boat. Other than needing different skills, what have I got wrong?

I don't think anyone would argue that composite is not stronger and lighter than plywood. However, wood is nicer to work with, is cheaper and is somewhat more environmentally friendly.

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Please correct me if I am wrong Dave, but...

The machete hull form is specifically designed for a ply+frame construction to be built easily and to a budget and yet to still be fast.

If you want to build a composite hull then there are other hull forms that would be better... such as the dance commander / Maas / Morrison etc etc. Less chines and more curves means better suited to composite construction. 

Stressed ply uses the inherent strength of the curve + the ply + the reinforcement lining the curved hull, minimal curves.

Machete uses the strength of what are essentially flat panels reinforced with frames.

Composite uses the strength of the material, and curves can help, but typically with minimal frames.

My take on this is that if you want to go down the composite path, a single chined boat with more curves would make more sense.

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You can just laminate whole panels on a laminating table i.e. skinned both sides and then construct as you would in plywood, minus stringers. This can be a fairly quick method, no moulds required. This might require designing the layup so that the panels are not too stiff to bend to shape.

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2 hours ago, Mal Smith said:

You can just laminate whole panels on a laminating table i.e. skinned both sides and then construct as you would in plywood, minus stringers. This can be a fairly quick method, no moulds required. This might require designing the layup so that the panels are not too stiff to bend to shape.

Nearly! I think the best way of doing it  is to laminate the inside only otherwise it is too hard to bend into shape. Then you turn the shell over and laminate up the outer skin.

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Pre skinning composite panels: If you laminate both sides the panels will not bend enough, you will end up with a boxy boat. If you laminate the inside first the foam will crack when you bend it. So laminate the outside first.

Chris Maas built a canoe this way a few years back. I build an NS14 that way 30 years ago, foam/glass skins, got the shape wrong though.

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See the posts starting at #334, page 34 on this thread for a discussion about building an IC from flat carbon/foam panels.

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