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another shot of the "workplace" The cleat bases are all little laminated bits worked in such a way that there are as few holes as humanly possible into the inside of the hull.

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There is a certain appeal of clear carbon bits next to Occume plywood.

SHC

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I'm somewhat intimidated by the German standard of finishing excellence, Frido and Ecky are such artists! and Chris Maas makes me feel like a complete wanker who could maybe be trusted to cobble together a chicken coop.

Should that ever get to worry you seriously Steve hop on a plane to London. My canoe lives maybe 10 miles from Heathrow airport. All you'll have to do is lift up the cover and take a quick glance and then turm round and go home completely happy and comfortable with your workmanship again...

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Hull is monochrome at last and deck is within another shot of the clear stuff.

post-738-1220621970_thumb.jpg

Weight of all the stuff in the picture is 41kg, so I am going to miss minimum weight by 5 kg or so.

 

I'm somewhat intimidated by the German standard of finishing excellence, Frido and Ecky are such artists! and Chris Maas makes me feel like a complete wanker who could maybe be trusted to cobble together a chicken coop.

 

SHC

 

so Steve forces me to get rid of 5 kg at myself - which is a good plan anyway.

 

i like the combination of carbon and wood - but the color of the hull and seat will be changed by me.

In discussion was either an olive green or an abricot colored hull - Are there any thoughts on that outside there ?

 

The peace of Frido's art that i sail at the moment has its flaws too: the ash veneered deck is very delicate and despite all care it gets dark spots all over.

 

Roger

(still) IC GER 68

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so Steve forces me to get rid of 5 kg at myself - which is a good plan anyway.

 

i like the combination of carbon and wood - but the color of the hull and seat will be changed by me.

In discussion was either an olive green or an abricot colored hull - Are there any thoughts on that outside there ?

 

The peace of Frido's art that i sail at the moment has its flaws too: the ash veneered deck is very delicate and despite all care it gets dark spots all over.

 

Roger

(still) IC GER 68

 

I did the 5kg off a few years back in fact it was much more :) yep its better. I think the apricot wont have enough contrast with the timber so go the Olive green.

 

Steve looks nice the carbon parts maketh the boat :) I found being a fussy bastard has help me getter better at finishing a boat. I still have a way to go to put my boat next to Chris's but dont we all.

 

I have always wonderd why you needed the core with the timber shell, I guess it elminates some internal structure, my thought was the timber with some black stuff inside and then some internals where it matters may have done the job. Am I missing something? or is the timber much lighter than have pictured in my head.

 

Looks like she will be a very clean deck layout.

 

I spent all day sanding my tub again, another undercoat tomorrow, hopefully I can get hold of my spray painter this week to get the top coat on. Even if I dont track him down I'll be posting some on water pics this time next week.

 

H.

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The typical problem I have seen with twisted plywood hulls is that in order to get the shape you want, you need pretty thin wood. So you get something that looks like the boat you want very quickly but then have to take forever cutting and installing bulkheads and stringers to get the stiffness you need. It may just be me, but I have always found fitting bulkheads a long and tedious project which never comes off as well as I think it should. And anyway all you get is a bunch of hard spots. Wonk, which is 3mm ply with 200g/m^2 carbon on the outside and with bulkheads every 500mm inside definitely oilcans in waves. Enough so you hear it.

And consider that the carbon doesn't weigh nothing. The almost 5m^2 of 200g/m^2 carbon cloth weighs (predictably) about a kilo and is going to take about a kilo of resin to wet out ( particularly if you don't use a vacuum bag.)

It seemed to me that if you could put a light core in and cover the inside with 70g/m^2 Kevlar you would get global stiffness for very close to the same weight. Looking back at the numbers the core and Kevlar weighed just about a kilo. I was probably too liberal with the epoxy because I mixed almost 2 kg to coat the inside of the hull, bond the foam in place and wet out the Kevlar.

I was concerned that I wouldn't bag seal, so I put in more resin and hoped that using more bleeder would absorb much of the excess. I don't think that worked as well as I hoped.

You have to remember that the inside of the hull was going to get coated with epoxy anyway and that I was probably going to laminate the same amount of Kevlar to the inside, so the real net difference is the foam core( 1.75kg) and the surplus epoxy ( probably about 1 kg).

You also have to consider all of the bulkheads that weren't going to be installed, but these are offset by the deck beams and hanging knees I did install.

In reality, I think the foam weight could should have been about 1/4 of what it was by using lighter foam cut to 3mm instead of 6mm. And I should have been more daring and cut the epoxy mix down

The net of all of this is that building one of these things to minimum weight using plywood is a bit more of a challenge than I at first expected, and it is taking me more than two shots at it to sort it out. I'm pretty sure we can get there, it's just a bit more like Piet Hein said,"Problems worthy of attack prove worth by hitting back."

SHC

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The typical problem I have seen with twisted plywood hulls is that in order to get the shape you want, you need pretty thin wood. So you get something that looks like the boat you want very quickly but then have to take forever cutting and installing bulkheads and stringers to get the stiffness you need. It may just be me, but I have always found fitting bulkheads a long and tedious project which never comes off as well as I think it should. And anyway all you get is a bunch of hard spots. Wonk, which is 3mm ply with 200g/m^2 carbon on the outside and with bulkheads every 500mm inside definitely oilcans in waves. Enough so you hear it.

And consider that the carbon doesn't weigh nothing. The almost 5m^2 of 200g/m^2 carbon cloth weighs (predictably) about a kilo and is going to take about a kilo of resin to wet out ( particularly if you don't use a vacuum bag.)

It seemed to me that if you could put a light core in and cover the inside with 70g/m^2 Kevlar you would get global stiffness for very close to the same weight. Looking back at the numbers the core and Kevlar weighed just about a kilo. I was probably too liberal with the epoxy because I mixed almost 2 kg to coat the inside of the hull, bond the foam in place and wet out the Kevlar.

I was concerned that I wouldn't bag seal, so I put in more resin and hoped that using more bleeder would absorb much of the excess. I don't think that worked as well as I hoped.

You have to remember that the inside of the hull was going to get coated with epoxy anyway and that I was probably going to laminate the same amount of Kevlar to the inside, so the real net difference is the foam core( 1.75kg) and the surplus epoxy ( probably about 1 kg).

You also have to consider all of the bulkheads that weren't going to be installed, but these are offset by the deck beams and hanging knees I did install.

In reality, I think the foam weight could should have been about 1/4 of what it was by using lighter foam cut to 3mm instead of 6mm. And I should have been more daring and cut the epoxy mix down

The net of all of this is that building one of these things to minimum weight using plywood is a bit more of a challenge than I at first expected, and it is taking me more than two shots at it to sort it out. I'm pretty sure we can get there, it's just a bit more like Piet Hein said,"Problems worthy of attack prove worth by hitting back."

SHC

 

 

WOW Steve, that is a beautiful organic shape on a beautiful boat.

in a screwed up world, I think it is an honorable thing to leave behind a trail of lovely boats.

off to test with Chris soon !

cheers, Ken Austin

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Steve,

The foam inside option seems good in theory but if someone like you with all the knowledge, experience and workshop kit can not get it light enough, what hope for normal home builders?

 

I think you have a lot less skin than the Hollow Log and it measured in at 51.5kg with a heavy mast and seat included, so my hull structure must be in the ball park.

It has 200gsm carbon inside from mast to rudder, 3 full ply bulkheads and foam bulkheads and wedges every 400mm to reduce panel sizes.

Carbon/ply mix is not good engineering, the crabon loads and fails before the wood takes any load, but it worked for me. After over two years the hull has no stress signs.

Styrene foam has a reputation for absorbing water so the boat was probably even lighter when new.

 

Its good to see the interest in these boats sustained, there is a new discussion started on the IC assoc forum about home building. About time, the How To article on my Hollow Log has been on the Aust IC site for over two years, and you are the only one who has used even a little of it to build a boat, as if you really needed any help.

 

Phil

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Steve,

 

How heavy is the timber dance floor and support structure? compared to making it from foam/carbon which would need very little internal support?

 

H.

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I don't have a specific number. I weighed the skin and then again just before the deck went down. The total interals, including trunks, backbone, tabbing etc was about 5 kg.

post-738-1220877431_thumb.jpg

Deck beams are all laminated western red cedar because I had a bunch of it lying around.

SHC

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Steve,

The foam inside option seems good in theory but if someone like you with all the knowledge, experience and workshop kit can not get it light enough, what hope for normal home builders?

 

I think you have a lot less skin than the Hollow Log and it measured in at 51.5kg with a heavy mast and seat included, so my hull structure must be in the ball park.

It has 200gsm carbon inside from mast to rudder, 3 full ply bulkheads and foam bulkheads and wedges every 400mm to reduce panel sizes.

Carbon/ply mix is not good engineering, the crabon loads and fails before the wood takes any load, but it worked for me. After over two years the hull has no stress signs.

Styrene foam has a reputation for absorbing water so the boat was probably even lighter when new.

 

Its good to see the interest in these boats sustained, there is a new discussion started on the IC assoc forum about home building. About time, the How To article on my Hollow Log has been on the Aust IC site for over two years, and you are the only one who has used even a little of it to build a boat, as if you really needed any help.

 

Phil

Phil

 

Apart from pulling the chines right to the bow and using carbon a bit more sparingly I have used much of your design and intend to use the internal structure and dance floor config. When I started I was a bit sceptical of my ability to finesse the torturing process to get an accurate/symetrical hull. I was more comfortable making a jig first. I am quite happy about how the hull is looking and am in the process of making a centrecase the way you describe.

 

I don't know about the weight yet and have probably used more resin with in-and-out 100gsm glass compared with one of carbon but it seems quite stiff so far...

 

Cheers

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We brought in a couple of test pilots for a near perfect day testing the new boat. Nige Oswald flew over from his island (thanks to my pal Kent and his Cessna!). And Ian Andrewes boated over from his.

Granted these guys are both very good Moth sailors but it was striking how quickly they got the hang of the new rules IC. Ian had never sailed an IC and Nige only a couple of times. Capsizes were dissapointingly rare. It makes me think that any reasonably competent dinghy sailor could pick it up without too much pain.

 

Ian hikes so hard it looks like he's trapezing off the end of the seat.

post-16686-1220980677_thumb.jpg

 

It was blowing 10-12kts with some gusts to maybe 15. The new bow shape definitely had less tendency to bury, upwind and down. The deck shed water nicely but both guys commented on the waves banging into the carriage when they got into some chop.

At 90kg Nige was able to sink the stern pretty easily if he strolled back there without enough way on.

 

 

 

post-16686-1220980720_thumb.jpg

 

Check out this short video of Nige:

 

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=XA7SkZ-01eA

 

 

 

A group of us will be sailing String Theory against the new boat (Superstring Theory?) at Richmond (SF Bay) September 24th - 29th. We'll harrass the I14's during their Nats.

It will be interesting to see whether the new boat, with its fuller bow and narrower stern, will pitch noticable more than the super narrow bowed ST.

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The boat rips upwind. The ICs are a very tempting class now that i've sailed Chris's. To many boats, not enough time...

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I have not folowed this thread for long. My apologies. Just wondering about the water line of c mass boat. Looks shorter than the standard IC. Is this so?

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I have not folowed this thread for long. My apologies. Just wondering about the water line of c mass boat. Looks shorter than the standard IC. Is this so?

No, 5.2m long and a bit over 0.75m wide. Chris' boats have a sort of transom which rakes forward at 45 degrees each side to satisfy the wording of the canoe pointy ends part of the class rule. So the topsides look shorter, but the LOA is not.

The boat Steve is finishing has the same feature too, but none others to date.

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The deck shed water nicely but both guys commented on the waves banging into the carriage when they got into some chop.

 

i hope the higher "Hollow Log" like bow of GER 78 will help to avoid the effect of waves bangign over the foredeck

 

the Video of the reching "superstring theory" makes me really horny for my new boat !

 

Roger

(still) IC GER 68

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It was blowing 10-12kts with some gusts to maybe 15. The new bow shape definitely had less tendency to bury, upwind and down. The deck shed water nicely but both guys commented on the waves banging into the carriage when they got into some chop.

 

Chris do you think the waves banging into the carriage is due to S/ST carriage being lower than the one on ST or just that the moth guys are comparing to the relatively high wings of the moth, even more so with the foilers theses days

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Chris do you think the waves banging into the carriage is due to S/ST carriage being lower than the one on ST or just that the moth guys are comparing to the relatively high wings of the moth, even more so with the foilers theses days

 

That may be but Nige in particular has a lot of dinghy experience so if it seemed like an issue to him it is worth thinking about. It would be great if he and Ian could chime in here with their impressions.

 

I don't think the seat height was the issue but rather the carriage face(s) that were getting slapped. My carriage is pretty box like. Maybe it should be a little more streamlined. Or maybe, as Roger hopes for his new boat, The higher crowned deck will do the trick. Everthing is a compromise. Don't let them tell you otherwise.

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That may be but Nige in particular has a lot of dinghy experience so if it seemed like an issue to him it is worth thinking about. It would be great if he and Ian could chime in here with their impressions.

 

I don't think the seat height was the issue but rather the carriage face(s) that were getting slapped. My carriage is pretty box like. Maybe it should be a little more streamlined. Or maybe, as Roger hopes for his new boat, The higher crowned deck will do the trick. Everthing is a compromise. Don't let them tell you otherwise.

 

I find it a difficult ask to make them streamlined without adding weight and bulk for the odd wave that hits, but then I haven't tried hard to smooth one out, maybe a project to add to the growing project pile.

 

Watching the vid's it sure looks like S/ST is passing over waves pretty fast, she looks good. Not to mention the stretch of water that looks like a great place to sail.

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That may be but Nige in particular has a lot of dinghy experience so if it seemed like an issue to him it is worth thinking about. It would be great if he and Ian could chime in here with their impressions.

 

I don't think the seat height was the issue but rather the carriage face(s) that were getting slapped. My carriage is pretty box like. Maybe it should be a little more streamlined. Or maybe, as Roger hopes for his new boat, The higher crowned deck will do the trick. Everthing is a compromise. Don't let them tell you otherwise.

 

Maybe I was sailing it a bit flat, its probably a bad habit from moths (not just foilers) to heel to windward and maybe that makes it a bit too sensitive to the chop coming past the inboard end of the seat.

 

Its hard to say without sailing other canoes. All I can tell you is that it was the one area of the boat that felt drag at any time but that may just be par for the course. I dont think it has anything to do with being used to sailing further out of the water, it was the impacts I was feeling, not height etc.

 

The only (non sexy) suggestion I could come up with was to make the seat flat and raise the carriage a bit so that the center of gravity was the same but the lowest point of the seat could be a few inches higher. I am sure there are practical and aesthetic reasons not to do that though. It seems to me like the bit of seat closest to the hull needs to be highest as that is where most of the water pushed up from the hull is going to go.

 

Another possibility would be to make the bottom of the seat flat rather than a shallow V so that there was even less frontage to the water. Again though, this is from one sail, I am sure there are a ton more reasons to have the seats shaped the way they are.

 

Maybe the just need to be sailed with a touch of heel?

 

Either way this is focusing on the one minor negative that I noticed, the boat felt REALLY good in all other respects. (Other than when I was getting buzzed by the chase boat - then it felt like someone pulled the daggerboard out)

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Maybe I was sailing it a bit flat, its probably a bad habit from moths (not just foilers) to heel to windward and maybe that makes it a bit too sensitive to the chop coming past the inboard end of the seat.

I'm not a great (not even good judging by last weekend!) boathandler, but I do seem to get feedback from my Nethercott that a tad of windward heel is beneficial on flat water. Now I think of it this feedback may have increased since the boat lost some weight, which I have no theory to explain at all! I could easily be misleading myself though...

The only (non sexy) suggestion I could come up with was to make the seat flat and raise the carriage a bit so that the center of gravity was the same but the lowest point of the seat could be a few inches higher. [snip] It seems to me like the bit of seat closest to the hull needs to be highest as that is where most of the water pushed up from the hull is going to go.

Assuming a desire for a bit of windward heel wouldn't a curved seat be better, because you'd still have more water clearance adjacent to the boat, but the middle of the seat would cop the waves rather than the end/helm's body, which is presumably a bigger lump for the waves to hit?

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Assuming a desire for a bit of windward heel wouldn't a curved seat be better, because you'd still have more water clearance adjacent to the boat, but the middle of the seat would cop the waves rather than the end/helm's body, which is presumably a bigger lump for the waves to hit?

 

Assuming you want windward heel yes. I was just trying to think how you would get the end of the seat to be the same height while giving more height at the deck level but not increasing the height of the weight etc.... (Its the boat end of the seat that kept hitting, not the outboard end)

 

I thought I had read in this thread that everyone was trying to keep it as low as possible for stability etc.

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Assuming you want windward heel yes. I was just trying to think how you would get the end of the seat to be the same height while giving more height at the deck level but not increasing the height of the weight etc.... (Its the boat end of the seat that kept hitting, not the outboard end)

 

I thought I had read in this thread that everyone was trying to keep it as low as possible for stability etc.

 

Steve has often said that if you are not taking the top off every 4th wave you are not flat enough.

 

Anders has always sailed dead flat. And I do mean flat - it is depressing to watch how flat he can sail.

 

When I first started sailing ICs, the carriages were pretty low, but that is not great ergonomically because you have to sit on it in light air and stand up to tack. Having it a bit higher makes both things easier. Seems like the Brits have always gone for slightly higher ones.

 

In terms of the carriage design, flat plate sides with an open front/back and gussets in the corners seems to be the trend in the Chesapeake; Steve has some nice photos of methods for building his recent light ones and John Kells has one like that also. Bill's on Sock Puppet was right in there at 3 kg or something - maybe it was 3 lb - these things are seriously light for the loads they take. Erich's have always been nice strong boxes but as hull shapes change these may not be as protected from waves as they were on the flared Nethercotts.

 

Looks great as usual Chris. Congratulations on a pretty design; will be interesting to hear if you feel it achieves the design goals performance-wise.

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Over the years, we have made the radius of the seat tighter in order to make sailing flat. or flatter possible.

My seats have a 24.5' radius ( 7250mm) which is more than the standard Brit seat but not as much as the seats that Erich and Del have made a mold for.

Just think how bad it would be if you had wings!

I looked seriously at the flat seat option, but the carriage has to be very high. Remember that the height of the outboard end is twice as high as it seems when the seat is cantered, so it would have to go up another 4" or so.

Almost hitting the boom.

Moving the carriage ends inboard increases the stress on the carriage and seat, so you have to play weight and strength off of the occasional wave slap, off of flare in the topsides forward..... all nice and hard to figure out and thus a good thing for a development class to ponder, debate and experiment with.

SHC

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Over the years, we have made the radius of the seat tighter in order to make sailing flat. or flatter possible.

My seats have a 24.5' radius ( 7250mm) which is more than the standard Brit seat but not as much as the seats that Erich and Del have made a mold for.

Just think how bad it would be if you had wings!

I looked seriously at the flat seat option, but the carriage has to be very high. Remember that the height of the outboard end is twice as high as it seems when the seat is cantered, so it would have to go up another 4" or so.

Almost hitting the boom.

Moving the carriage ends inboard increases the stress on the carriage and seat, so you have to play weight and strength off of the occasional wave slap, off of flare in the topsides forward..... all nice and hard to figure out and thus a good thing for a development class to ponder, debate and experiment with.

SHC

 

So what is the usefulness of the boom clearance?

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So what is the usefulness of the boom clearance?

Yeah you can change the sailplan.

You need some gap in order to be able to sheet the main in.

You also kind of need to get your knee under the boom in light air.

There also isn't a ton of weight to play with. curving the seat is a pretty elegant way to get the skipper where he needs to be and gain wave clearance with no real increase in surface area. Just where the compromises have come to so far. You may be right, build one and test it.

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So what is the usefulness of the boom clearance?

One of the first things I noticed on 'Donkey' is that when I punched a wave and had a sheet of water flowing over the deck there was a noticable deceleration when it impacted the carridge. Now the 'Donk' has a low foredeck compared to the OD canoes. which plays into it, And because the ODs have already slowed down by the time the water gets to the forestay and bow has pitched up into space.

I thought of adding some 'diverters' at the aft edge of the deck to deflect the spray up & past the carridge but thought better of it reasoning it was better to sail than sand.

Awaiting the 'Theory Trials' later this month.

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Yeah you can change the sailplan.

You need some gap in order to be able to sheet the main in.

You also kind of need to get your knee under the boom in light air.

There also isn't a ton of weight to play with. curving the seat is a pretty elegant way to get the skipper where he needs to be and gain wave clearance with no real increase in surface area. Just where the compromises have come to so far. You may be right, build one and test it.

 

I am definitely not saying I am right and absolutely assume that my short experience leads me to wrong conclusions - was just curious as to the answers or reasons why they are the way they are.

 

Would love to have the time/money to build and try one, I have always thought they are great boats (more so now they are dev) but I would take your comment about comparisons to Chris's boats to another level.....

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A few important words on health and safety:

The stuff we use in boat building isn't very good for you.

One way we don't get sick is by limiting our exposure to the stuff. This means wearing gloves and dust masks, having proper ventilation and mostly leaving.

If you make a mess in the house and continue to live there your exposure continues while you sleep, watch TV and chase the wife around the bedroom. The one guy that I know got really sick from epoxy was building boats in the basement and in his attached garage. The house had forced air heat, so the "shop" more or less got everywhere.

Just a note and an admonition to be thoughtful about what you do. The wife has a point.

SHC

 

Dad,

This is clearly some definition of the word limited that I was not previously aware of. You've been living in and around the epoxy in that shop for the last 20 years. There are even rumors that you were actually concieved by it. If it were possible to get really truly sick from epoxy you my friend would be dead by now. But, I'm not going to complain because you're not dead and as long as you're not dead you can keep fixing my boats.

 

In other news, my newsletter is basically done. I'm looking for people to write regatta reports and was wondering if anyone would be willing to write a piece about the worlds or about the DC in general (hint hint Hayden). If someone were to do so they should email it to me at wvc6@cornell.edu and do it pretty soon because I would like to send this thing out in the next week.

 

Thanks

Willy

 

Just kidding Dad

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Willy, you miss the point.

The fact is that, while I may spend 10 hours a day building boats and working in the shop, I don't sleep and eat there.

This would be different if I had been building boats in the basement or in a room that was actually attached to the house because the mess would end up contaminating the dwelling and we would all be exposed to some degree all the time.

This is one of the major benefits of the detached shop.

I was urging people without that benefit to be mindful with what they do.

Otherwise my work habits are not as good as some, but not as bad as others.

Thanks for calling me out, punk.

Love

Yr Dad.

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post-21278-1221370348_thumb.jpg

 

Finally on the water!!!! :rolleyes:

 

It was a brief outing as the carriage has proven to be a little on the light side, not major to fix just needs a little extra carbon in a couple of areas, at least I know its not over built.

 

During the very short sail, the boat felt great balanced nicely and oh so smooooooth Im happy so far with the amount of volume aft when tacking there was enough to support my weight, it was also not as unstable as I thought it would be which is pleasing. Gust response was good. I need more time to play to get a good feel of how she handles hard reaching as I havent been out the end of the plank due to the carraige not being upto the job just yet, will fix this week to try again next weekend.

 

ICU2

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post-21278-1221370348_thumb.jpg

 

Finally on the water!!!! :rolleyes:

 

It was a brief outing as the carriage has proven to be a little on the light side, not major to fix just needs a little extra carbon in a couple of areas, at least I know its not over built.

 

During the very short sail, the boat felt great balanced nicely and oh so smooooooth Im happy so far with the amount of volume aft when tacking there was enough to support my weight, it was also not as unstable as I thought it would be which is pleasing. Gust response was good. I need more time to play to get a good feel of how she handles hard reaching as I havent been out the end of the plank due to the carraige not being upto the job just yet, will fix this week to try again next weekend.

 

ICU2

 

Boat looks great, but what are those strange ripples on the water? I didn't think there was wind at Lake Hume?

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Boat looks great, but what are those strange ripples on the water? I didn't think there was wind at Lake Hume?

 

Every now and then we get some ripples. Actually it was rather windy and gusty today not really the best conditions for a first sail, off shore breeze, boat untested, hear a poping sound and think time to turn around and not get to far from the club. All good fun.

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Looks great H. The carriage looks pretty tall though - I thought one thing that was identified at McCrae as being good for a DC was a low CG? What's the all up weight come out to?

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Looks great H. The carriage looks pretty tall though - I thought one thing that was identified at McCrae as being good for a DC was a low CG? What's the all up weight come out to?

 

I haven't put her on the scales yet, I still have to add top coat and build a new plank and put together a new boom before I know if I hit the 50kg mark. My current plank is at least 4kg heavy depending on how heavy the paint works out last time I did a check weigh I should still be able to get real close to 50kg once I make all the new parts.

 

The top of the plank should be about the same clearance off the water as my Nethercott I had a real low carriage once before, since making the higher carriage its something I come to like so I was torn between low CoG and what I have come to like if need be I'll make a new low carriage time will tell. My dance floor is approx 15mm lower than AUS20 I think thats what counts more so than the carriage but I could be wrong. From the short sail I had the boat didn't feel top heavy I'll need to have a play in waves to really tell.

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Lookin good Hayden, I like your chine. Wondering why you didn't go with a continuous plane for your bow, the corner in the middle of it looks kind of funky. Any particular reason why?

 

Willy

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The top of the plank should be about the same clearance off the water as my Nethercott I had a real low carriage once before, since making the higher carriage its something I come to like so I was torn between low CoG and what I have come to like if need be I'll make a new low carriage time will tell. My dance floor is approx 15mm lower than AUS20 I think thats what counts more so than the carriage but I could be wrong. From the short sail I had the boat didn't feel top heavy I'll need to have a play in waves to really tell.

 

I think your personal C of G during maneuvers is the important thing. It's the time spent crossing the boat that's the tippy part. Hence the beauty of the low dance floor. Once your butt is on the seat all is well. I'll bet I end up raising my seat 50mm or so to get it up out of the waves.

 

 

The boat looks good Hayden! Let's see some sailing pictures.

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Lookin good Hayden, I like your chine. Wondering why you didn't go with a continuous plane for your bow, the corner in the middle of it looks kind of funky. Any particular reason why?

 

Willy

 

Just to be different and errr um funky, also its saves about 150g chopping that much off :). I'm already thinking about cutting the bow down straight, and a host of other changes. Also cutting all the way down tended to make the bow finer than I wanted back futher in the hull otherwise I needed to add some internal structure to keep the fullness back a little because of the way I made it and the shape of the section...... it goes on and on and on in the end its deciding on what to compromise the least and in my case what Im guessing will work.

 

I think your personal C of G during maneuvers is the important thing. It's the time spent crossing the boat that's the tippy part. Hence the beauty of the low dance floor. Once your butt is on the seat all is well. I'll bet I end up raising my seat 50mm or so to get it up out of the waves.

 

 

The boat looks good Hayden! Let's see some sailing pictures.

 

Thats what I've thought re CoG during maneuvers. Next weekend I should have Dad out with his camera so pics will have to wait until then.

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post-21278-1221370348_thumb.jpg

 

Finally on the water!!!! :rolleyes:

 

It was a brief outing as the carriage has proven to be a little on the light side, not major to fix just needs a little extra carbon in a couple of areas, at least I know its not over built.

 

During the very short sail, the boat felt great balanced nicely and oh so smooooooth Im happy so far with the amount of volume aft when tacking there was enough to support my weight, it was also not as unstable as I thought it would be which is pleasing. Gust response was good. I need more time to play to get a good feel of how she handles hard reaching as I havent been out the end of the plank due to the carraige not being upto the job just yet, will fix this week to try again next weekend.

 

ICU2

 

H,

 

It looks great. I hope that you can sort out the bugs. When you refer to the carriage rails are you talking about the rails for the seat (Plank), or the rails (Tracks) for the hull?

 

Regarding the seat carriage height, I think the discussion does not quite hit the nail on the head. On Mayhem, I certainly have a higher carriage than most DC's built before Hayden's. During maneuvers, I do not notice any problems, but when I really notice things is when I am recovering from a capsize (Yes it does happen).

 

With the tall carriage, two things are working against you:

 

 

 

1. The tall CG, when you are not yet on the boat in a position to counter the rolling movement.

 

2. Once the boat does roll, it will roll much further before the seat hits the blue stuff. With the narrow hulls, the cg of the rig is now past the WL to leeward, and it makes getting back in the boat just a little harder. When it is windy, it can get pretty exciting.

 

 

 

Once you are sailing, I like having a little more height. Hitting wave in the new lighter boats is slow, and my knees are happier at the end of the day. Finding the right ballance between carriage height, deck height, hull volume & boyancy is all part of the new game.

 

 

 

Sail it crash it, try to break it…. Have a ball. It continues to be exciting to see all of the new designs that are coming out.

 

 

 

Please let us know how your next outing goes.

 

 

 

Best

 

 

 

JK

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H,

 

It looks great. I hope that you can sort out the bugs. When you refer to the carriage rails are you talking about the rails for the seat (Plank), or the rails (Tracks) for the hull?

 

Regarding the seat carriage height, I think the discussion does not quite hit the nail on the head. On Mayhem, I certainly have a higher carriage than most DC's built before Hayden's. During maneuvers, I do not notice any problems, but when I really notice things is when I am recovering from a capsize (Yes it does happen).

 

With the tall carriage, two things are working against you:

 

 

 

1. The tall CG, when you are not yet on the boat in a position to counter the rolling movement.

 

2. Once the boat does roll, it will roll much further before the seat hits the blue stuff. With the narrow hulls, the cg of the rig is now past the WL to leeward, and it makes getting back in the boat just a little harder. When it is windy, it can get pretty exciting.

 

 

 

Once you are sailing, I like having a little more height. Hitting wave in the new lighter boats is slow, and my knees are happier at the end of the day. Finding the right ballance between carriage height, deck height, hull volume & boyancy is all part of the new game.

 

 

 

Sail it crash it, try to break it…. Have a ball. It continues to be exciting to see all of the new designs that are coming out.

 

 

 

Please let us know how your next outing goes.

 

 

 

Best

 

 

 

JK

 

 

John,

 

Im refering to the runners of the carraige which run in the tracks on the hull.

 

I haven't capsized my new boat yet :P (give it time) but that is a good point you make, I guess thats more incentive to not capsize. Im sure I'll get the bugs sorted, next weekend hopefully I have a nice breeze that I can have a decent sail/test and start making some big improvements to the rig and as my spreaders are very easily adjustable Im confident I can it sorted its pretty close I just need to put some prebend back in.

 

The carraige hassle hopefully is solved this week, I've had a think about it yesterday its all prepared extra carbon etc cut ready to throw at it tonight. I'll load it up the next day or so and see how it feels/looks I still have some other things I can do to add strength. Im keen at the moment to do it a bit at a time so I can a real good fix on what is the min amount I need to have. I'm planning on making a new carraige mold in the near future so I can use what I have learnt this time to make a better lighter stronger smarter carraige for the future (not to mention more elegant design I have spinning in the back of my mind if I can make it work)

 

For sure update will follow when I get to have a full sail, although I might decide to stay out on the water.

 

H.

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We brought in a couple of test pilots for a near perfect day testing the new boat. Nige Oswald flew over from his island (thanks to my pal Kent and his Cessna!). And Ian Andrewes boated over from his.

Granted these guys are both very good Moth sailors but it was striking how quickly they got the hang of the new rules IC. Ian had never sailed an IC and Nige only a couple of times. Capsizes were dissapointingly rare. It makes me think that any reasonably competent dinghy sailor could pick it up without too much pain.

 

Ian hikes so hard it looks like he's trapezing off the end of the seat.

post-16686-1220980677_thumb.jpg

 

It was blowing 10-12kts with some gusts to maybe 15. The new bow shape definitely had less tendency to bury, upwind and down. The deck shed water nicely but both guys commented on the waves banging into the carriage when they got into some chop.

At 90kg Nige was able to sink the stern pretty easily if he strolled back there without enough way on.

 

 

 

post-16686-1220980720_thumb.jpg

 

Check out this short video of Nige:

 

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=XA7SkZ-01eA

 

 

 

A group of us will be sailing String Theory against the new boat (Superstring Theory?) at Richmond (SF Bay) September 24th - 29th. We'll harrass the I14's during their Nats.

It will be interesting to see whether the new boat, with its fuller bow and narrower stern, will pitch noticable more than the super narrow bowed ST.

 

Just so I can kick myself, what day were you out? I should have asked. It would have fun to at least see it. That said, best sailing (vacation) we've ever had. All our sailing was in conditions similar to your vid. :P I'm betting we were in Canada at the time. :lol: The food was good though.....

 

Beautiful boat, Chris. Now that I've stopped buying big boat sails (for a while ;)) Maybe I can get started.

 

Paul

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Steve,

The foam inside option seems good in theory but if someone like you with all the knowledge, experience and workshop kit can not get it light enough, what hope for normal home builders?

 

I think you have a lot less skin than the Hollow Log and it measured in at 51.5kg with a heavy mast and seat included, so my hull structure must be in the ball park.

It has 200gsm carbon inside from mast to rudder, 3 full ply bulkheads and foam bulkheads and wedges every 400mm to reduce panel sizes.

Carbon/ply mix is not good engineering, the crabon loads and fails before the wood takes any load, but it worked for me. After over two years the hull has no stress signs.

Styrene foam has a reputation for absorbing water so the boat was probably even lighter when new.

 

Its good to see the interest in these boats sustained, there is a new discussion started on the IC assoc forum about home building. About time, the How To article on my Hollow Log has been on the Aust IC site for over two years, and you are the only one who has used even a little of it to build a boat, as if you really needed any help.

 

Phil

 

Hey Phil,

Can you give us a link the the IC assoc forum? I never used it regularly and now I've gone and forgotten the URL. I'm sure there are some people here new to the canoe who will benefit from me asking the stupid question. I'm really excited to see the home build thread, always interesting to read about construction.

 

Love the new boats people, keep them coming

 

Willy

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Hey Phil,

Can you give us a link the the IC assoc forum? I never used it regularly and now I've gone and forgotten the URL. I'm sure there are some people here new to the canoe who will benefit from me asking the stupid question. I'm really excited to see the home build thread, always interesting to read about construction.

 

Love the new boats people, keep them coming

 

Willy

 

http://www.intcanoe.org/forum2

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:rolleyes:

post-21278-1221897044_thumb.jpg

 

First on water pic.

 

Today started a little light and slowly built a tricky gusty afternoon meant it was hard work. However the boat felt really nice to sail suprisingly it didn't want to nose dive which I thought when I was building I may not of add enough fullness to stop going down the mine easily, so Im pleased about being able to push as hard as I did on a reach in gusts of around 16-18knots. To windward was smooth as Im not sure how big an angle Im tacking through so maybe Im freed of a little to much, I was more interested today in enjoying the rides on my new toy :P . The biggest difference to a nethercott was when reaching with some waves how the boat just kept going through the waves where a nethercott would slow that bit climb over the wave then take off. I was out by myself today tomorrow others should come and play with me (club racing) so I can get a better idea of performance.

 

ICU2

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post-21278-1221897044_thumb.jpg

 

That's great Hayden! Aren't these new boats cool? Are those jib lead blocks fixed? How much rocker on that thing? I've got about 80mm on the new boat.

 

You'll have Alex in Josie to sail against at your Nationals right? That should tell us how dangerous you are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Notice - New dates for the West Coast New Rules IC Boat Tests - October 2-5

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post-21278-1221897044_thumb.jpg

 

That's great Hayden! Aren't these new boats cool? Are those jib lead blocks fixed? How much rocker on that thing? I've got about 80mm on the new boat.

 

You'll have Alex in Josie to sail against at your Nationals right? That should tell us how dangerous you are.

 

Notice - New dates for the West Coast New Rules IC Boat Tests - October 2-5

 

Real Cool! :rolleyes:

 

They are fixed, if I had some there would only be about 30mm travel tops so I didnt bother with them, maybe a jib boom or other gadjet will be needed for reaching and running, I'll finish her off and then start on a new plank, boom, foils + gadjets.

 

Im not exactly sure on the rocker I think is about 90mm but I could be wrong. Now I need to know so I'll measure it next week at some stage.

 

Christian has Josie until the end of the Nationals, then Alex takes ownership after the series. He is real keen to get his hands on her and I dont blame him its a great boat.

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[quote name='ICU2' date='Sep 21 2008, 05:01 AM' post='1893577

 

Christian has Josie until the end of the Nationals, then Alex takes ownership after the series. He is real keen to get his hands on her and I dont blame him its a great boat.

 

And as soon as Alex buys AUS26, I can start ordering the bits for my new Geoff Harman designed 'flatpack' IC - which will give all interested boys and girls a chance to build a 91.5 yardstick boat themselves with a lot of the tricky bits made simpler by being pre-fabricated and coming with the supplied kit. Pete and I ordered the mould template yesterday, and will be blogging regularly come October on our progress (in the meantime, we're picking up a Skate to sail while we build - after all planks are cool, and real men don't wear nappies).

 

2 weeks to nationals B)

 

PS

The New York Challenge Cup (one of the oldest sailing trophies in the world) will soon be on display in the Australian Maritime Museum in Sydney.

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Christian has Josie until the end of the Nationals, then Alex takes ownership after the series. He is real keen to get his hands on her and I dont blame him its a great boat.

 

 

And as soon as Alex buys AUS26, I can start ordering the bits for my new Geoff Harman designed 'flatpack' IC - which will give all interested boys and girls a chance to build a 91.5 yardstick boat themselves with a lot of the tricky bits made simpler by being pre-fabricated and coming with the supplied kit. Pete and I ordered the mould template yesterday, and will be blogging regularly come October on our progress (in the meantime, we're picking up a Skate to sail while we build - after all planks are cool, and real men don't wear nappies).

 

2 weeks to nationals B)

 

PS

The New York Challenge Cup (one of the oldest sailing trophies in the world) will soon be on display in the Australian Maritime Museum in Sydney.

Cool, Skates would be the next best ride to a Nethercott they look like fun only seen them never had a float on one.

 

The research I did on the New York cup and sporting trophies in general put the New York cup (since 1882) as the third oldest sporting trophy still handed over to the winners, the other two are the America's cup (since 1848) and the "Ladies Cup" (since 1821) which is another sailing trophy raced for in Sligo Ireland however its not an international trophy so that makes the New York Cup the Second oldest international Sporting Trophy in the World and the Oldest trophy for Dinghies in the World. Its a pretty cool history the Canoe Class has only made that bit more interesting with the new breed of IC's.

 

BTW first races went well winds were light but the boat got around ok felt really nice and went well also, Im pretty happy for a first time out, I just need to sort a few minnor bits to make the systems work easier no redesign needed just some little tweaks here and there.

 

I guess we find out in two weeks how the new toy is really going when "The Log", "Josie" and ????? (name to be revealed next week) match up against each other.

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Cool, Skates would be the next best ride to a Nethercott they look like fun only seen them never had a float on one.

 

All going well, you should get the chance over the nationals. I will be making a minor detour on the way to Albury.... via Newcastle, so I should have the skate in tow.

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Where do I find details for this flat pack IC, All my searches on google only end up with posts from this forum or the main IC class forum?

 

Chris H

 

IC GBR 238

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Where do I find details for this flat pack IC, All my searches on google only end up with posts from this forum or the main IC class forum?

 

Chris H

 

IC GBR 238

 

Chris, give it a couple of weeks and details/pics will be available - Pete and I are going to prove the build first and take heaps of pictures when we start next month. Meantime, PM Hurricane H.

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My woody so far:

post-18083-1222032074_thumb.jpg

post-18083-1222032223_thumb.jpg

 

Can't wait to see the new boats at the ozzy Nats in a couple of weeks and hopefully get a play! Took NZL2 out in the weekend - not much breeze and clunked around thanks to not having sailed her for a while.

 

 

Cheers

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Stressed ply design is on Aust web site:

http://www.internationalcanoe.yachting.org...FIC%2F13920%2F0

 

Phils boat design/build is pretty damn good (good enough that Mr Clarke utilised many ideas from it). I think he'd have to be the favourite for the Aus Nationals, with great speed from the worlds and more time in his new boat than ICU2 and I have had in ours - and with the tweaked rig it will be interesting to see how fast he can punt it uphill.

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Phils boat design/build is pretty damn good (good enough that Mr Clarke utilised many ideas from it). I think he'd have to be the favourite for the Aus Nationals, with great speed from the worlds and more time in his new boat than ICU2 and I have had in ours - and with the tweaked rig it will be interesting to see how fast he can punt it uphill.

 

What you've spent all this time just drooling at Josie and not sailing her :P , I would have thought you have been sailing IC's more than the rest of us as Phil has been putting time into the Moths a fair amount since the Worlds from what I understand. Yesterday was my 3rd race since the Worlds so Im a bit rusty. It will be very interesting in two weeks, to see the difference some wires have made to "The Log" and just how much time you have spent in Josie, if my new toy has any promise for the future and I guess to see who else may arrive from left field, or if someone turns up in a well sorted Nethercott and gives us all a sailing lesson.

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What you've spent all this time just drooling at Josie and not sailing her :P , I would have thought you have been sailing IC's more than the rest of us as Phil has been putting time into the Moths a fair amount since the Worlds from what I understand. Yesterday was my 3rd race since the Worlds so Im a bit rusty. It will be very interesting in two weeks, to see the difference some wires have made to "The Log" and just how much time you have spent in Josie, if my new toy has any promise for the future and I guess to see who else may arrive from left field, or if someone turns up in a well sorted Nethercott and gives us all a sailing lesson.

 

Hey, I'm trying to go for 'underdog' status mr 'Current World Champion', besides since it was agreed that AUS26 was going to Lake Hume and staying there I have been spending less time on the water and more time planning the next one

 

http://icflatpack.blogspot.com/

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another shot of the "workplace" The cleat bases are all little laminated bits worked in such a way that there are as few holes as humanly possible into the inside of the hull.

post-738-1220641396_thumb.jpg

There is a certain appeal of clear carbon bits next to Occume plywood.

SHC

 

Has this machine hit the water yet Steve?

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Out again yesterday for a float in club racing, typical early season low numbers on the water at least the consistant boats where out to play. The new boat is no doubt faster than the Nethercott, pulling away somewhat quicker from boats I would normally leave behind and able to stay on the heels of others that normally would pull away from me.

 

I sailed in the strongest conditions so far, I was able to nose dive the boat for the first second and maybe a few more times after that. I was pleased how the boat survived poping back out much like a Nethercott would. Good thing is the boat didn't slow down half as much with the bow under water and I didn't feel I lost control at any stage although I wasn't far off a few times.

 

Still waiting to sail in some waves so far the water has been flat, the few occasions the waves piped up a little the boat still felt good not getting hooked up, but its still to early to give a 100% account on the boats ability to handle waves.

 

Lots of very different sounds with the new boat some good some scarey a loud pinging sound had me back off and head home early will have to have a good look this week to see a possible cause. I have a few ideas some almost impossible to prove so I guess its a case of working through all the loaded items at the time and rule each one off.

 

The boat really feels so smooooth to sail and gets along so nice uphill in conditions the Nethercott would be screaming for some more breeze to get motoring.

 

No more pics yet, next weekend we have the OZ Champ's so there should be some on photos taken from photo/rescue boats hopefully the conditions will provide good photo opp.

 

ICU2

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Getting ready for the OZ nationals this weekend, I thought it be a good idea I check the boat is within class rules, I was able to tick all the boxes which I thought would be the case as I did checks all the way through the build.

 

I put her on the scales for the first time at the moment just a tittle over 6kg heavy (56.25 approx) which means the fairing and paint came out a little heavier than I had allowed. Im not worried about the weight long term as I have some of the bullet proof Nethercott parts on the new boat until I get time to make new ones, plank, boom, rudder, centreboard combined I should finish somewhere between 50.0 and 50.5kg as atleast 5kg alone can be saved in the plank without trying and the boom will save almost 1kg so I can afford to save some extra weight with the foils and add some strength to the plank and carraige to hopefully make them somewhat reliahable(ish).

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2008 ICAA Austalian Championship first day of racing was a testing day of light winds and big wind shifts. the new rules boats showed very good speed when pointed in the right direction. As this didn't happen all the time the Nethercotts where able to mix it with the much lighter and narrower IC's.

 

Race 1

AUS30 H Virtue (New Rules IC)

AUS26 C Knott (New Rules IC)

AUS8 A Kalin

AUS21 P Stevenson (New Rules IC)

AUS25 M Smith

AUS7 J Reeder

AUS9 P Armstrong

NZL2 A Pardington

 

Race 2

AUS20 H Virtue (New Rules IC)

AUS26 C Knott (New Rules IC)

AUS21 Phil Stevenson (New Rules IC)

AUS8 A Kalin

AUS25 M Smith

NZL2 A Pardington

AUS7 J Reeder

AUS9 P Armstrong

 

 

More details to come when I remeber them.......

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Another testing and long day on the water with wind all over the place taking forever to sort of settle in one direction eventually we got one race underway in reasonable sailing conditions just before the wind completely die away, the first of the afternoon races had a tricky end to the beat with the top mark set in the lee of a hill making it a lottery which was the wind would come from at the mark some picked it first time and got it complete wronf the next which saw some really close racing until near the end of the race when a few puffed tended to split the fleet aparts. The last race of the day had the new rules boat pull well away on the first beat with all three fighting for the lead Christian opened up and early lead on Phil Stevenson who got past a capsized Hayden at the first mark once upright he was got onto a nice gust which took him down to be on the heels of Phil by the gybe mark mean while Christian was steaming off to the bottom mark. The next beat Hayden was able to go around Phil who kindly sailed into a hole on the wrong side of a wind shift. Mean while the Christian was holding onto to his lead which had a little taken out on the work. The run saw Hayden again get onto a nice gust and ride it down too and eventually around Christian by the bottom mark after some close taking earling on the work Hayden found a nice puff out to the right and stretch away to have a bit of a lead at the top mark Christian was also able to stretch well away from Phil on the work as phil found himself on the wrong side of some puffs (it appeared he was having one of the those races). Positioned remained stationary to the end which was shortened at the bottom mark. It was well after 7pm by the time all canoes where of the water thankfully day light saving kicked in that morning.

 

Results for the day are:

Race 3

AUS30 H Virtue (New Rules IC)

AUS26 C Knott (New Rules IC)

AUS21 P Stevenson (New Rules IC)

AUS7 J Reeder

NZL2 A Pardington

AUS19 M Smith

AUS7 J Reeder

AUS9 P Armstrong

AUS8 A Kalin (DNC)

 

Race 4

AUS21 P Stevenson (New Rules IC)

AUS30 H Virtue (New Rules IC)

AUS26 C Knott (New Rules IC)

AUS19 M Smith

AUS7 J Reeder

AUS9 P Armstrong

NZL2 A Pardington (DNF)

AUS8 A Kalin (DNC)

 

Race 5

AUS30 H Virtue (New Rules IC)

AUS26 C Knott (New Rules IC)

AUS21 P Stevenson (New Rules IC)

AUS19 M Smith

AUS7 J Reeder

NZL2 A Pardington

AUS9 P Armstrong

AUS8 A Kalin (DNC)

 

There are more stories to tell its late, and its been a long day on the water more races tomorrow.... stay tuned more reports to come.

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Current Nethercott IC World Champion Hayden has successfully defended his Australian IC crown on his home waters of Lake Hume.

5 firsts and 1 second showed his dominance of the event in the light and flukey conditions and showed how quick his new boat is in defending the challenges form the 'josie' hulled AUS26 and th Una rigged AUS21.

I felt I had a speed advantage over AUS30 when the wind was up, as AUS26 would start planing however when it was to light to do that I just wasn't able to challenge. Phil in AUS21 was still amazingly quick off the wind, and also had good pace upwind when the wind increased and managed to take a win off Hayden in heat 4.

It was clear that the 3 IC's had a massive speed advantage over the Nethercotts, particularly when the wind increased, howver the racing in the Nethercott division was tight with NSW sailor Malcolm winning from light weather specialist Jim Reeder and New Zealand IC sailor Andrew Pardington.

 

Some pictures can be found here (more to come) http://www.internationalcanoe.yachting.org....asp?Page=38228

 

I sat out Heat 6 so that current Nethercott IC Junior World Champion Alex could race AUS26 (as he has just bought it off me), Alex came to grips with the boat quickly and as the wind came up in the later part of the race he seriously challenged ayden for the lead.

 

So now I'm canoelessas I begin the next build - some model pics here:

2008_1001ICPMB0018.JPG

2008_1001ICPMB0019.JPG

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Congratulations Hayden on your win, still on top good.

Good luck Alex with the new boat, she should treat you just fine.

Phil, I hear you put some shrouds on the "Log," what did you think of the results?

 

Constantly curious

 

Willy

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Congratulations Hayden on your win, still on top good.

Good luck Alex with the new boat, she should treat you just fine.

Phil, I hear you put some shrouds on the "Log," what did you think of the results?

 

Constantly curious

 

Willy

 

Thanks Willy,

 

Alex had a grin from ear to ear after just one sail, he finally has a boat he can truly be competitive in which is great.

 

Phil has some diamonds and a fore stay, they improved his performance to windward but needs more to be able to get in touch or even ahead at the bottom mark. He sailed some real nice works in the race he won from me on the weekend, using wind shifts to get in front and his downwind speed to ride gusts down to me. It was a brilliant race the three new rules boats where neck and neck all the way around the first triangle with bouy room at the wing and bottom mark being swapped between boats, we all had a turn in the lead on the second reach. Christian tacked early on the next work parked it and couldn't fight back to Phil and I. In the end Phil had a brilliant last work picking the shifts perfectly to finish just ahead, I went for a shift which came about 10 seconds late for me which possibly would have allowed me to stay infront. The new boats seem to float on the front edge of a gust riding them all the way down to the bottom mark, in gusty conditions big gaps close real fast, or if timing works out big gaps open.

 

H.

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Congratulations Hayden on your win, still on top good.

Good luck Alex with the new boat, she should treat you just fine.

Phil, I hear you put some shrouds on the "Log," what did you think of the results?

 

Constantly curious

 

Willy

Willy'

I have added diamonds which rotate with the rig plus a forestay. The diamonds do well at controlling side bend and the forestay allows the vang to get the leach tight upwind. All much better but still not good enough. The sail now looks like a sail not a laser rag upwind, but I have not made any sail luff curve adjustments and the spar still needs a load and bend before the sail flattens to a reasonable shape, (done by taking up slack in the forestay). Consequently in the light it is too full forward and I go really bad upwind. Once out on the seat a little the loads/bend are about right and I can match VMG with the others but not quite as high. There were no races last weekend with consiatnt winds near this level.

 

I think there is more which could be done. The mast would be better with the forestay tight and the sail cut for no pre bend. Also the boom could be lowered to lengthen the luff and improve aspect ratio.

 

Not sure what to do, sail adjustments are minimal but it seems any potential canoe converts want a jib. A stayed sloop rig means a major rebuild and new spars and sails, not in my canoe budget. As I am unlikely to be racing canoes again for two years I am in no hurry to do anything unless a buyer pops up. I will accommodate whatever a buyer wants.

 

Today I am working on my 5kg moth hull. Aiming for a minimalist approach like the Log. Rig will reflect learnings from the unstayed canoe rig, at least to start with.

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Thanks for all the reports folks, good stuff to hear, especially after a bit of lack-lustre season in GBR.

 

Not sure what to do, sail adjustments are minimal but it seems any potential canoe converts want a jib. A stayed sloop rig means a major rebuild and new spars and sails, not in my canoe budget.

Its a shame that you haven't got time to keep working on the single sail rig Phil: I think AndyP has something ofthe same problem. There's an awful lot to be learned about single versus sloop rig... Have other singlehander classes got it wrong and sloop rigs are superior, or is it just that Canoes hit the edge of the general design box with the exceptional upwind speed? I find it hard to believe that sloop rigs are optimale for ICs yet Una rigs optimal for A cats: surely oneof us has something to gain...

 

The trouble is there are only so many people who have the time and skills to really work at this sort of development... My personal unfinished development business is about wing masts for instance, but there's only a limited amount of to be gained in elevating my position from 50% to 45% of the fleet with boat speed... You have got to have the talent to sail the yacht fast to be able to evaluate developments properly...

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We just finished a four day comparison between String Theory and my new IC on San Francisco Bay. Seven good IC sailors gave both boats a try and Doug Kidder lent his Whaler to the cause. Thanks guys!

 

post-16686-1223834847_thumb.jpg

 

 

Winds were 7 -18 kts. Mostly 10-12kts.

 

The goal was to build a boat that is as fast as String Theory but easier to sail. Below the waterline the shapes are very similar. The new boat has a little more flair at the chainplates and a bit more volume forward as the chines are carried further into the bow. Also the chines are a little narrower at the stern. The foredeck is convex and the dance floor is dropped down about 75mm.

 

The convex foredeck clearly shed water better so that seems like the way to go. The lower dance floor got mixed reviews. I don't think there was much question that it made the boat more stable when you're standing on it but some of the guys didn't like not being able to put their foot on the rail without stepping up. Keep in mind these guys are really experienced IC sailors and they can sail pretty much anything, blindfolded. For someone who is not so agile, or has a bad back or knees, or who tacks and gybes under the boom (sounds like me) I think the lower deck will prove to be more comfortable.

 

The sinker stern didn't cause any concern and makes for a killer stern stand.

 

Anyway the result is that the new boat is, as near as we could tell, the same speed all around as String Theory and is indeed easier to sail. The hotshots didn't care about the stability of the lower deck but the new bow shape and raised foredeck definitely made the bow easier to keep up downwind in a breeze. Erich Chase thought the new boat might be too easy to sail and prefered String Theory. His thought was - how often do you sail in over 20kts? This from a heavy air wizard who spent a good part of his IC sailing career in over 20kts so what can I say?

 

Interestingly we couldn't see a speed difference between the Arends main and the Anders main. Except that the Arends, being bigger, was a little faster downwind when it was light. And, maybe because it is flatter or because of the bigger head, was a little harder to keep in the groove. The masts were set up for Ander's main and I could have kicked the spreaders a little more forward for the Arends sail. Still, by cranking the lowers we could make both sails pretty.

 

The gybing board was effective in all wind speeds.

 

Here are links to a couple of videos of the event:

 

 

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We just finished a four day comparison between String Theory and my new IC on San Francisco Bay. Seven good IC sailors gave both boats a try and Doug Kidder lent his Whaler to the cause. Thanks guys!

 

post-16686-1223834847_thumb.jpg

 

 

Winds were 7 -18 kts. Mostly 10-12kts.

 

The goal was to build a boat that is as fast as String Theory but easier to sail. Below the waterline the shapes are very similar. The new boat has a little more flair at the chainplates and a bit more volume forward as the chines are carried further into the bow. Also the chines are a little narrower at the stern. The foredeck is convex and the dance floor is dropped down about 75mm.

 

The convex foredeck clearly shed water better so that seems like the way to go. The lower dance floor got mixed reviews. I don't think there was much question that it made the boat more stable when you're standing on it but some of the guys didn't like not being able to put their foot on the rail without stepping up. Keep in mind these guys are really experienced IC sailors and they can sail pretty much anything, blindfolded. For someone who is not so agile, or has a bad back or knees, or who tacks and gybes under the boom (sounds like me) I think the lower deck will prove to be more comfortable.

 

The sinker stern didn't cause any concern and makes for a killer stern stand.

 

Anyway the result is that the new boat is, as near as we could tell, the same speed all around as String Theory and is indeed easier to sail. The hotshots didn't care about the stability of the lower deck but the new bow shape and raised foredeck definitely made the bow easier to keep up downwind in a breeze. Erich Chase thought the new boat might be too easy to sail and prefered String Theory. His thought was - how often do you sail in over 20kts? This from a heavy air wizard who spent a good part of his IC sailing career in over 20kts so what can I say?

 

Interestingly we couldn't see a speed difference between the Arends main and the Anders main. Except that the Arends, being bigger, was a little faster downwind when it was light. And, maybe because it is flatter or because of the bigger head, was a little harder to keep in the groove. The masts were set up for Ander's main and I could have kicked the spreaders a little more forward for the Arends sail. Still, by cranking the lowers we could make both sails pretty.

 

The gybing board was effective in all wind speeds.

 

Here are links to a couple of videos of the event:

 

 

 

Very interesting, I'll look more closely at the videos tonight but it is hard to see much of a difference between the way the boats sail. Amazing to see how far the carriage was back (especially after you asked Eric to put it back), it looked like the bow was sitting nicely but the boat did appear to accelerate when he went further aft. Overall it looks very good, well done and thanks for the video footage.

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We just finished a four day comparison between String Theory and my new IC on San Francisco Bay. Seven good IC sailors gave both boats a try and Doug Kidder lent his Whaler to the cause. Thanks guys!

 

post-16686-1223834847_thumb.jpg

 

 

Winds were 7 -18 kts. Mostly 10-12kts.

 

The goal was to build a boat that is as fast as String Theory but easier to sail. Below the waterline the shapes are very similar. The new boat has a little more flair at the chainplates and a bit more volume forward as the chines are carried further into the bow. Also the chines are a little narrower at the stern. The foredeck is convex and the dance floor is dropped down about 75mm.

 

The convex foredeck clearly shed water better so that seems like the way to go. The lower dance floor got mixed reviews. I don't think there was much question that it made the boat more stable when you're standing on it but some of the guys didn't like not being able to put their foot on the rail without stepping up. Keep in mind these guys are really experienced IC sailors and they can sail pretty much anything, blindfolded. For someone who is not so agile, or has a bad back or knees, or who tacks and gybes under the boom (sounds like me) I think the lower deck will prove to be more comfortable.

 

The sinker stern didn't cause any concern and makes for a killer stern stand.

 

Anyway the result is that the new boat is, as near as we could tell, the same speed all around as String Theory and is indeed easier to sail. The hotshots didn't care about the stability of the lower deck but the new bow shape and raised foredeck definitely made the bow easier to keep up downwind in a breeze. Erich Chase thought the new boat might be too easy to sail and prefered String Theory. His thought was - how often do you sail in over 20kts? This from a heavy air wizard who spent a good part of his IC sailing career in over 20kts so what can I say?

 

Interestingly we couldn't see a speed difference between the Arends main and the Anders main. Except that the Arends, being bigger, was a little faster downwind when it was light. And, maybe because it is flatter or because of the bigger head, was a little harder to keep in the groove. The masts were set up for Ander's main and I could have kicked the spreaders a little more forward for the Arends sail. Still, by cranking the lowers we could make both sails pretty.

 

The gybing board was effective in all wind speeds.

 

Here are links to a couple of videos of the event:

 

 

 

Thanks for the report and vids, How does the new boat compare with ST when she goes through a wave to windward the one sail I had of ST she would hook up on a bigger wave is this less an issue with the new boat.

 

I sailed my new boat for the first time in some waves on the weekend not big, but enough to get water over the deck from time to time. I didn't feel my boat is hooking up when I get water back to the flares like it did on ST that one sail (the ST sail I had the waves were larger in all fairness) however my gut feel is my flares wont be a problem they are somewhat smaller than ST but nowhere near as small as your new boat.

 

One thing which is becoming common is I can do great tacks from Starboard onto port but the other way I'm crap, not sure why at the moment could be the plank getting jammed more on one side as my plank needs some attention its frustrating as heck when I try to do a smooth tack and finished up close to or in the drink.

 

Good to see Erich back on a Canoe how long before he builds? Next would be great to see Anders back at the end of a plank.

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post-23256-1223915153_thumb.jpg

 

did my eyes spot GER 78 sailing on this picture (The IC most left on the pic i copied from th hpdo thread (thanks bowgirl !)) ?

 

and if yes: Steve how did she sail - im dead courius on any news ...

 

Roger

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Roger,

Yes we did get GER 78 wet in the salt water yesterday.

I drove down on Saturday, stood the rig up for the first time on Sunday morning and was able to sail the second beat of the first race. Conditions were such that I have no idea how fast the boat is.

She did get me out to the course and back again, so I know she is better than Team Phillips, but there is a list of things that have to be done better and changed, like shortening the shrouds so there is some rig tension at the correct rake...

I didn't feel very flash, but then again I had about 4 hours sleep....

SHC

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We just finished a four day comparison between String Theory and my new IC on San Francisco Bay. Seven good IC sailors gave both boats a try and Doug Kidder lent his Whaler to the cause. Thanks guys!

 

post-16686-1223834847_thumb.jpg

 

 

Winds were 7 -18 kts. Mostly 10-12kts.

 

The goal was to build a boat that is as fast as String Theory but easier to sail. Below the waterline the shapes are very similar. The new boat has a little more flair at the chainplates and a bit more volume forward as the chines are carried further into the bow. Also the chines are a little narrower at the stern. The foredeck is convex and the dance floor is dropped down about 75mm.

 

The convex foredeck clearly shed water better so that seems like the way to go. The lower dance floor got mixed reviews. I don't think there was much question that it made the boat more stable when you're standing on it but some of the guys didn't like not being able to put their foot on the rail without stepping up. Keep in mind these guys are really experienced IC sailors and they can sail pretty much anything, blindfolded. For someone who is not so agile, or has a bad back or knees, or who tacks and gybes under the boom (sounds like me) I think the lower deck will prove to be more comfortable.

 

The sinker stern didn't cause any concern and makes for a killer stern stand.

 

Anyway the result is that the new boat is, as near as we could tell, the same speed all around as String Theory and is indeed easier to sail. The hotshots didn't care about the stability of the lower deck but the new bow shape and raised foredeck definitely made the bow easier to keep up downwind in a breeze. Erich Chase thought the new boat might be too easy to sail and prefered String Theory. His thought was - how often do you sail in over 20kts? This from a heavy air wizard who spent a good part of his IC sailing career in over 20kts so what can I say?

 

Interestingly we couldn't see a speed difference between the Arends main and the Anders main. Except that the Arends, being bigger, was a little faster downwind when it was light. And, maybe because it is flatter or because of the bigger head, was a little harder to keep in the groove. The masts were set up for Ander's main and I could have kicked the spreaders a little more forward for the Arends sail. Still, by cranking the lowers we could make both sails pretty.

 

The gybing board was effective in all wind speeds.

 

Here are links to a couple of videos of the event:

 

 

 

Great looking boat Chris. Very interesting to see how fast and low Erich was able to go once he moved the seat back and how little boat was left back there once he did. Who were the seven experienced IC sailors? I recognized Del and Erich and I know you and Oliver were there. Who were the other three?

 

Boat looks great Chris, very excited

 

Willy

 

PS Ger 78 did get wet yesterday. Dad, partially because of him getting very little sleep and partially because of the tricky conditions, seemed to find the wrong side of the course a lot so I didn't really get to line up with him. However, I have to say that the way it moves through the water looks very similar to ST. Its HOT

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Hayden, If the waves are big enough for solid water to come across the deck then the new boat sheds them better than ST which tended to slow when a wave hit the mast step/struts. Also there's less commotion when waves hit the wings. This means you don't need the seat so far aft upwind in waves. Which may or may not be a good thing.

 

 

Willy, Thanks. In addition to Del and Erich we had Kenny from Calgary, Mikey, and Dan, who is the man in green in the video. Dan sails skiffs and has an 18 and an old IC. We definitely need to get him into a new IC. Mikey too.

Anders also came out for a sail. Man that guy looks at home in an IC. And it was great that Oliver could swing by for a sail on his way back from the A-cat NA's. So there's your seven. I watched the whole thing from the comfort of the Whaler.

 

Kenny will be taking the new boat home after I splash a mold from it. That will be the first new rules IC in Canada.

 

String Theory is now looking for a new home. If anybody is looking for a fast ride let me know.

 

It did look like Erich took off when he put the seat back didn't it? The relative speed of the camera boat and the subjects can really deceive though. I think he really did move ahead but not by as much as the video makes it appear. Also the wind was too light to have the seat that far back, I just wanted to see what it would do.

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Roger,

Yes we did get GER 78 wet in the salt water yesterday.

I drove down on Saturday, stood the rig up for the first time on Sunday morning and was able to sail the second beat of the first race. Conditions were such that I have no idea how fast the boat is.

She did get me out to the course and back again, so I know she is better than Team Phillips, but there is a list of things that have to be done better and changed, like shortening the shrouds so there is some rig tension at the correct rake...

I didn't feel very flash, but then again I had about 4 hours sleep....

SHC

 

Steve

Thats great news to me - having you sorting out all the Kinderkrankheiten (dont know the correct translation of this) definitely will help to get the whole potential out of the boat.

(and will make me faster on her)

 

Are there any detaill pics of her rigged ?

 

Roger

 

(still) IC GER 68

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Kinderkrankheiten = Teething Problems :)

 

thanks mate

 

i remember you've been treated with some german lessons at school ...

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When Erich slid the plank aft, what happened to the helm balance?

 

Paul

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When Erich slid the plank aft, what happened to the helm balance?

 

Paul

 

Nothing you could feel through the tiller. With the skinny hull and a balanced rudder it's always finger tip control.

 

Anders felt the helm was a little too light. There is probably a little too much rudder forward of the shaft. You don't get much feedback from it. Or maybe the board should be an inch further forward. I think the rake was about right for the conditions. But then I just set it to what looks cool.

 

I had the rudder fall off the back of ST once when I was sailing upwind on the end of the plank. I took a bit for me to figure out what was going on. Suddenly the helm felt weird and the boat started to round up slowly. Leads me to conclude that IC's are pretty well balanced.

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Hayden, If the waves are big enough for solid water to come across the deck then the new boat sheds them better than ST which tended to slow when a wave hit the mast step/struts. Also there's less commotion when waves hit the wings. This means you don't need the seat so far aft upwind in waves. Which may or may not be a good thing.

 

 

Willy, Thanks. In addition to Del and Erich we had Kenny from Calgary, Mikey, and Dan, who is the man in green in the video. Dan sails skiffs and has an 18 and an old IC. We definitely need to get him into a new IC. Mikey too.

Anders also came out for a sail. Man that guy looks at home in an IC. And it was great that Oliver could swing by for a sail on his way back from the A-cat NA's. So there's your seven. I watched the whole thing from the comfort of the Whaler.

 

Kenny will be taking the new boat home after I splash a mold from it. That will be the first new rules IC in Canada.

 

String Theory is now looking for a new home. If anybody is looking for a fast ride let me know.

 

It did look like Erich took off when he put the seat back didn't it? The relative speed of the camera boat and the subjects can really deceive though. I think he really did move ahead but not by as much as the video makes it appear. Also the wind was too light to have the seat that far back, I just wanted to see what it would do.

 

Thanks Chris,

If I were you I would just sell ST to Peter Ullman, it would save you having to build another boat. I really thought he was going to try to sail it all the way to Germany when he took his test sail on it.

 

Willy

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Just a pic from the recent Oz nationals on Lake Hume.

 

post-21278-1224113750_thumb.jpg

 

The winds weren't the best for a full gallery of great shots, I thought this one looked good enough to share.

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H from that angle the boat looks damn sexy, shows the bow and the O'hara hips off nicely. The plank looks to be in the right place too in that shot - the earlier pic of the boat on its trolly made it look a little high.

 

Alex's new acquisition in the background looks pretty swish too with the Irwin rags - was he sailing it in that race or was it still under Christian's stewardship at that stage?

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Given the overcast weather, and the presence of actual wind, I think that might be heat 6 and Alex in the boat. But I reckon it would be a close call if Hayden tacked to see who was in front. At the end of heat 6 the wind really came in, and Alex went for a great hoon (and a couple of swims) after the race.

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