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Speng

beyond the Laser

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While the title is beyond the Laser it could also read Beyond the Finn.

 

The Laser is a 30+ year old design what do you think of the newer sit-in singlehanders.

Examples RS300, RS Vareo, CL Stealth, Raider, Bongo, Blaze, Hoot, Mega Byte, Byte.

 

Let not discuss Moths, ICs, cats or anything requiring traps because that's a whole different level.

 

How popular are these new designs, how fast, how enjoyable, what are they like, What else have you sailed that you like.

 

FYI UK Portsmouth numbers where applicable:

RS300 1000

RS Vareo 1035

Blaze 1047

Laser 1078

Finn 1069

Byte 1162 (Don't know if this is for a C2 rig)

MX Ray 1020

Mega Byte don't know my listing doesn't show a rating

 

FYI I get my UK numbers from http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/dinghydatabase.php3

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While the title is beyond the Laser it could also read Beyond the Finn.

 

The Laser is a 30+ year old design what do you think of the newer sit-in singlehanders.

Examples RS300, RS Vareo, CL Stealth, Raider, Bongo, Blaze, Hoot, Mega Byte, Byte.

 

Let not discuss Moths, ICs, cats or anything requiring traps because that's a whole different level.

 

How popular are these new designs, how fast, how enjoyable, what are they like, What else have you sailed that you like.

 

FYI UK Portsmouth numbers where applicable:

RS300 1000

RS Vareo 1035

Blaze 1047

Laser 1078

Finn 1069

Byte 1162 (Don't know if this is for a C2 rig)

MX Ray 1020

Mega Byte don't know my listing doesn't show a rating

 

FYI I get my UK numbers from http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/dinghydatabase.php3

 

 

this forum must make the guys at who build these very nervous. how about supernovas?

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seriously considering a Megabyte - not that I can sail it competitvely in breeze, since I'm about 75k, but because I can sail it with my 4 year old, and race occasionally.

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I sailed the byte when it first came out, and now it's going close to 15 years old, not exactly new, though the CII rig is definitely an improvement. When i sailed it, it was like a radial only it wasn't, it was a byte. The new rig is pretty sweet but at over 2.5 grand entrance to the class(that's the mast and sail only, not even hull, blades and lines), you could get a laser and sail against the best sailors in the world right away.

 

The byte was designed by ian bruce, father of the laser, so the boat performance isn't much different, the mega byte is by farr though, so maybe it's a bit different, but it's still a displacement monohull.

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I like the Megabyte because it looks comfortable for 2 people. A Laser just isn't. It's nice to be able to take someone else sailing, or even racing two-up. I hope they sell more of 'em.

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There's a couple of guys have 300s at my club- they are exceedingly good boats in light winds- as are the Blazes. Those of us with sillier, supposedly faster boats, struggle (we do mixed fleet) until we can get planing. The 300 was designed from a starting point of the Moths of the time, I believe. The Blaze shares similar lines (and heavyweight construction) with the Iso, Buzz and Boss assymetric trapeze boats- and I believe someone's taken advantage of the snub nose and installed a kite system similar to those to one as a prototype.

 

 

(fwiw, the most up to date UK Portsmouths should always be here, plus an explanation of how the RYA runs it)

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The byte was designed by ian bruce, father of the laser, so the boat performance isn't much different, the mega byte is by farr though, so maybe it's a bit different, but it's still a displacement monohull.

 

 

The father of the Laser is Bruce Kirby, not Ian Bruce. I can never understand why people can not understand this.

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I bought a Megabyte last year. Having sailed finns and lasers in the past, the Megabyte beats them hands down. No it is no "Hoot" or Musto skiff, but it is a great single hander for people who don't want to go quite that extreme.

 

Basically, Ian Bruce sat down with Bruce Farr and discussed all the things they didn't like about the laser and fixed them.

1) the boat is designed for a more realistic weight range (200-240 lbs), with 50% more sail area than a laser

2) the main has a track so you can take the sail down,

3) the traveller is in the middle, so you don't catch the sheet on the transom during a gybe,

4) the maststep drains to the outside, so water doesn't collect in it and rots out the base (as in the laser)

5) it has decent bailers

6) all the controls are well designed with adequate power

7) the cockpit is large, allowing for the occasional passenger

8) the mast is two part carbon, allowing a nice luff curve and easy adjustability of sailshape

9) the sail is mylar, so you don't have to replace it before every major event

10) the deck is designed for comfortable hiking

11) the boat still only weighs 130 lbs

12) they just came out with a new fully battened rig

13) the foils are extruded aluminum and fit very snugly without slop

14) the tiller is permanently attached, so there's no slop there either

 

And most of all it sails like a dream - it planes in very little wind and is easy to control and is very competitive in the local Portsmouts handicap races.

 

I bought the boat sight unseen because it seemed to be a good match for me on paper and it exceeded all my expectations. Everywhere I go it is creating converts - try one!

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Dutchman, saw one up close the other day - I like everything about it but the bailers. I guess the big guys need a little more head clearance in the gybes....

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There's a couple of guys have 300s at my club- they are exceedingly good boats in light winds- as are the Blazes. Those of us with sillier, supposedly faster boats, struggle (we do mixed fleet) until we can get planing. The 300 was designed from a starting point of the Moths of the time, I believe. The Blaze shares similar lines (and heavyweight construction) with the Iso, Buzz and Boss assymetric trapeze boats- and I believe someone's taken advantage of the snub nose and installed a kite system similar to those to one as a prototype.

(fwiw, the most up to date UK Portsmouths should always be here, plus an explanation of how the RYA runs it)

 

Sorry, just being pedantic but the 300 wasmore like the Moths from the 70's (The Womble design) not the late 90's- see pic.

post-9201-1200156712_thumb.jpg

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I've sailed most of them. For my money the 300 is the pick of the bunch by a mile as a race boat if you can hack it (and as Nige says very much a pre narrow Moth), but the Megabyte is a sweet little boat, and cool if you don't want to bang the corner as hard as a 300, and would also be better if its part take the kids out etc.

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I've spent a couple of days sailing in and RS Vareo and did some handicap racing against Vareos from similarly rated boats like the Vago.

 

The cockpit is definitely better than the old Laser, the tank design was a little wanting like most RS boats (narrow, sharp edges, inside bevel that was too small) but a big imrovement over the RS200 and RS400. There is plenty of room for 2 and nothing to impede front to back movement so you can put your weight where you want it without contortions. One gripe I have is that the sheet comes down in the middle of the cockpit so you need to move aft to tack or gybe which may not be what you really want to do in light air. This is a problem with pretty much all these boats. IMHO,the best arrangement is one where the sheet taken off the boom but the only mass produced boats that do it this way are the 9ers and the new rig RS800. Boom sheeting really is easier to handle and does open up the cockpit.

 

The spinnaker couldn't be easier to handle. With no headstay to get in the way, it would quickly flip through on gybes under the force of gravity alone and with some practice you could really roll and pump the gybes with both sails drawing. There's a number of boats out there with small spinnakers where I'm not entirely certain that the spinnaker acually makes the boat faster around a WL course, even in moderate air. The RS200, Laser 2000, Vago and Vareo, amongst others, fit into this group where you really need some breeze to get it rolling. Once the breeze is on, it scoots along nicely enough.

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One gripe I have is that the sheet comes down in the middle of the cockpit so you need to move aft to tack or gybe which may not be what you really want to do in light air. This is a problem with pretty much all these boats. IMHO,the best arrangement is one where the sheet taken off the boom but the only mass produced boats that do it this way are the 9ers and the new rig RS800. Boom sheeting really is easier to handle and does open up the cockpit.

 

I've got a Vareo, it's really good fun to sail and very comfortable, I like the idea of the extra room afforded by the off boom sheeting but you really do need to be able to cleat off the main whilst you concentrate on flying the kite downwind. I'm just about to try using a 'Spinlock' cleat on the jammer instead of the standard cleat......anyone else tried one ? I wonder if 'off the boom' sheeting would even be class legal even if you left the jammer assembly in place - I might have to investigate

 

Nigel

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The father of the Laser is Bruce Kirby, not Ian Bruce. I can never understand why people can not understand this.

 

Ian Bruce came up with the concept of an updated beachboat and commissioned Bruce Kirby to design it. Ian Bruce then did the industrial design and built the early boats. So Ian Bruce can clearly be called the father of the Laser and Bruce Kirby is the main designer, with input from Ian Bruce and Hans Fogh (who did the rig). The initial beachboat concept was then modified to make it more of a racer as the design/prototype process went on. This info comes straight from Ian, Hans and Bruce and is confirmed by all other sources.

 

Back on topic - one of the big movers in the UK says that the "updated Laser/OK/Solo/Finn" concept was a mistake that Laser, Topper and RS/LDC all fell into. Basically, people sail Lasers, OKs, Sabres (Australia), Finns and Solos (UK) aren't all that interested in a really fast boat and want a strong class (big fleets, resale etc). An update takes away what they like (the strong class), and in exchange gives them something they aren't that interested in (better performance). Sailors who really want more performance tend to move to the really fast boats.

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Ian Bruce came up with the concept of an updated beachboat and commissioned Bruce Kirby to design it. Ian Bruce then did the industrial design and built the early boats. So Ian Bruce can clearly be called the father of the Laser and Bruce Kirby is the main designer, with input from Ian Bruce and Hans Fogh (who did the rig). The initial beachboat concept was then modified to make it more of a racer as the design/prototype process went on. This info comes straight from Ian, Hans and Bruce and is confirmed by all other sources.

 

Back on topic - one of the big movers in the UK says that the "updated Laser/OK/Solo/Finn" concept was a mistake that Laser, Topper and RS/LDC all fell into. Basically, people sail Lasers, OKs, Sabres (Australia), Finns and Solos (UK) aren't all that interested in a really fast boat and want a strong class (big fleets, resale etc). An update takes away what they like (the strong class), and in exchange gives them something they aren't that interested in (better performance). Sailors who really want more performance tend to move to the really fast boats.

 

Cannot agree more! I am one of those guys sailing these old classes. one of the problems with omproving the hiking singlehanders is that the improved performance you could get by creating something new, is so little compared to how much you are loosing in terms of the class.

In the case of the OK which suits sailors between 75 and 95kilos. More sail area is not needed for that weight range, the boat is usually overpowered, a lighter boat would mean shorter lifttime, right now the boats last for more than ten years at least. So you would loose the cheap entrance to the class. The shape of the boat could be more modern, the boat is not really stable downwind in a breeze, but what the hell its more challeging for the sailors, so it doesn't really matters.

cheers

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I see your point. here in the US the Laser is definitely the dominant s/h class. While Finnsters would have you believe that their class is showing a resurgence the fact is that they've really grown from tiny to small and i think if it weren't for the olympic status it'd be even smaller as the boats are complex, expensive, not really OD, there's no supplier here etc. That leaves the market open for a modern OD oriented toward the "larger man". Also there are some who want the interest of flying a chute downwind...

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I see your point. here in the US the Laser is definitely the dominant s/h class. While Finnsters would have you believe that their class is showing a resurgence the fact is that they've really grown from tiny to small and i think if it weren't for the olympic status it'd be even smaller as the boats are complex, expensive, not really OD, there's no supplier here etc. That leaves the market open for a modern OD oriented toward the "larger man". Also there are some who want the interest of flying a chute downwind...

 

 

Ive been sailing the cl stealth for about 5 months and it's an awesome boat...sails upwind very much like a laser and is balls out fast off the wind...light easy to rig and sail and pretty cheap considering what you get for your money.... hoping to see more out there...20 of these things screaming around a rcecourse would be a blast....

 

$8995 aint a bad price imho

 

they have one displayed now at the toronto boat show.....as well as a short vid.

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The father of the Laser is Bruce Kirby, not Ian Bruce. I can never understand why people can not understand this.

 

Ian Bruce was building contenders and I14's in Montreal when HE asked Bruce Kirby to pen a hull for an easy to sail singlehander. Ian had a hand in designing the rigging with Hans Fogh.

 

who would u consider the father.

 

btw, i spent 13 hrs riding in a truck with Ian Bruce while he told me the story. great guy.

 

oops, already answered

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I see your point. here in the US the Laser is definitely the dominant s/h class. While Finnsters would have you believe that their class is showing a resurgence the fact is that they've really grown from tiny to small and i think if it weren't for the olympic status it'd be even smaller as the boats are complex, expensive, not really OD, there's no supplier here etc. That leaves the market open for a modern OD oriented toward the "larger man". Also there are some who want the interest of flying a chute downwind...

 

Jibetech is now building Finns in the US.

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Blaze basics ....

 

Its a common misconception that the Blaze is heavy. They were always a vacuum bagged foam sandwich and the hull weighs 72kg with centreboard, all lines, wings etc but without rig. Originally they were polyester but are now epoxy have carbon booms and carbon outer tubes in the wings. In fact they pop out the mold in the mid-50's kg. This still allows a robust build and the class has prospered in the UK after a slowish start in the late 90's - there are now around 250 mostly in the UK but there are small numbers in Europe and elsewhere and even a potential second builder in South America. The UK Nationals have averaged 48 for the past 4 years with a high of 53, not huge but an indication of what is going on quietly beyond large marketing budgets. Like all others its a compromise and well worth a look being relatively easy to sail but still presents quite a challenge. The centreboard n particular may sound a bit 'retro' but its great for estuaries and shallow lakes and it does mean we can raise it from the extremity of the wing when bearing away round the windward mark at terminal velocity etc

 

We took over building the class in 06 and have been working with Rondar to refine it, building new tooling and improving the basic deck layout but maintaining all the potentially expensive bits as one-design - not to exploit in this case but to ensure fairness and reasonable costs to be competitive. The CA has always maintained that the one design nature of the boat is preserved but permit refinement and limited scope for owners to personalise.

 

Paul Young at Rondar believes that it would be popular in North America and elsewhere outside the UK and so a version of the boat is being developed for these markets based upon the Blaze basics. It will have larger rig than the Blaze (which is 10.0m) and a taller, and possibly carbon, mast carrying around 11.5+m to enhance its potential in the target markets. It will start as a 'new' and separate class if successful but boats could be absorbed into the Blaze class with a rig switch reducing any perceived risk for potential early pioneers if it did not. The wings may also allow wider setting than the current 2.5m limit.

 

In the UK some Blaze owners have experimented with spinnakers but the jury is still out on that one and it would be unlikely to pass an AGM - it's does not work for every class !!

 

At one level the blaze is a SMOD but we are committed to the very long term and work very closely with the CA to ensure owners get what they want. Many of the more popular CA driven classes have passed the test of time and generally they are accessible type boats that offer good performance - challenge without being too too extreme. This is the model we are now following. This means larger fleets than would otherwise be the case and fleets that can stay out when the wind and waves really get up without scaring off the back of the fleet next time ! All classes need them there as well, they deserve to grin as well next time it's F5+. All involved in the project see it as ongoing - building long term classes means you have to commit to the long term.

 

Anyway for the interested in the UK - the latest Cirrus/Rondar one will be shown for the first time at the 'Dinghy Show' and if you are elsewhere why not visit the old (and to be replaced shortly) CA site at www.blaze-sailing.org.uk There are some video clips there that might encourage !

 

Mike L.

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Ian Bruce came up with the concept of an updated beachboat and commissioned Bruce Kirby to design it. Ian Bruce then did the industrial design and built the early boats. So Ian Bruce can clearly be called the father of the Laser and Bruce Kirby is the main designer, with input from Ian Bruce and Hans Fogh (who did the rig). The initial beachboat concept was then modified to make it more of a racer as the design/prototype process went on. This info comes straight from Ian, Hans and Bruce and is confirmed by all other sources.

 

Back on topic - one of the big movers in the UK says that the "updated Laser/OK/Solo/Finn" concept was a mistake that Laser, Topper and RS/LDC all fell into. Basically, people sail Lasers, OKs, Sabres (Australia), Finns and Solos (UK) aren't all that interested in a really fast boat and want a strong class (big fleets, resale etc). An update takes away what they like (the strong class), and in exchange gives them something they aren't that interested in (better performance). Sailors who really want more performance tend to move to the really fast boats.

 

You're right for the most part, but the Megabyte is a better dual-purpose daysailor/racer than any of these boats. There are a lot of 2 person boats around, but none as simple. Even a V15 still has a jib and stays to mess with. And there are no singlehanders that take a passenger very well.

 

Note the continued success of the Lehman 12 in southern CA, a single-sail boat that takes two people to race -- usually couples, or parents/grandparents with kids. I can imagine parent/child races and couples races, along with singlehanded racing for dad in the Megabyte.

 

So I don't think it's a mistake, it offers something that the Laser/OK/Finn don't.

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Its a common misconception that the Blaze is heavy... the hull weighs 72kg with centreboard, all lines, wings etc but without rig.

Not that big a misconception if compared to Laser, Megabyte or RS300 then...

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Standard knee jerk there from Jim then !! We know you love the Blaze really - you always always have a view .... and we are always willing to reply.

 

No its not a Laser etc ..... you would not expect that with a larger hull and with centreboard included and wing systems in the weight ..... but somehow it just proves to be a tad faster and a different sort of experience. One quite a lot of people obviously enjoy. Not knocking the Laser in particular, had a couple of used ones and 5 new ones in my time. But it would be a boring life indeed if we all agreed on what to sail !

 

Mike L.

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Let's get back to basics...the 1936 Olympic Monotype - the O-Jolle. It's a good big heavy boat that goes pretty fast. It's not weight sensitive like a Laser. And women can sail them too...assuming the women look like Rosey O'Donnell...and assuming you think Rosey O'Donnell is a woman.

 

http://www.o-jolle.de/

post-7854-1200487011_thumb.jpg

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Mibbe throw the Phantom in there too.

 

Hang on, the original post said "The Laser is a 30+ year old design what do you think of the newer sit-in singlehanders. The Phantom was designed in 1971. It's had one hell of a resurgence, possibly due to that fact that food is a lot cheaper than it used to be :lol: or possibly because there aren't many boats which don't reward the light-to-middleweight human body range.

 

Mike

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Hang on, the original post said "The Laser is a 30+ year old design what do you think of the newer sit-in singlehanders. The Phantom was designed in 1971. It's had one hell of a resurgence, possibly due to that fact that food is a lot cheaper than it used to be :lol: or possibly because there aren't many boats which don't reward the light-to-middleweight human body range.

 

Mike

 

 

CL STEALTH

2dci9fc.jpg

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The blaze for me is a great little boat. Borrowed one for last years nats and was dead impressed, a decent performance without the complication of trying to helm and trapeze. I've done my time hiking like a git out of a laser and getting the feeling your going nowhere whilst watching your new £400 plus sail steadily turn into something that looks like grannies bra (not fun or nice...). The blaze will plane up wind relatively easily and the sails are built to last and cost about the same as a lasers. Talk is that the new deck mould looks dead sexy and they're going to be built out of epoxy by rondars. I for one will be putting my money where my mouth is

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the CL Stealth is not a trap boat, get your info straight Yuma.

So, why does it look like it has traps?

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Just trying to stir the pot a bit..... wondering why the HOOT is not getting much play here? Yes, it is true that real production is still somewhere in the future but a version VERY close to final has been extensively sailed and ONE actually purchased. Doug's baby seems ideal in that it is a strict O.D. , extremely simple and light, easy to transport and rig, accomodates a wide range of sailor weights and heights, fairly priced and goes like a goosed needlefish. How 'bout some comments either pro or con!

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Just trying to stir the pot a bit..... wondering why the HOOT is not getting much play here? Yes, it is true that real production is still somewhere in the future but a version VERY close to final has been extensively sailed and ONE actually purchased. Doug's baby seems ideal in that it is a strict O.D. , extremely simple and light, easy to transport and rig, accomodates a wide range of sailor weights and heights, fairly priced and goes like a goosed needlefish. How 'bout some comments either pro or con!

 

I love the picture of the girl carrying the boat under her arm! But it looks more like a glorified windsurfer than a boat. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't fit most American yacht club venues. Definitely a beach boat, sailed in a wetsuit or drysuit. Can it stand up by itself at a dock? Can I sail twilights in normal clothes? It's also pretty expensive.

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the CL Stealth is not a trap boat, get your info straight Yuma.

 

Where's it from, and how much does it cost? Where are the fleets? Links?

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So, why does it look like it has traps?

 

 

what you see are actually check stays to kep the rig from inverting when the kite is up.

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Where's it from, and how much does it cost? Where are the fleets? Links?

 

 

the boat is made by Clsailboats in fort erie canada, it's cost is 8995 and it is brand new... fleet pricing is available.

 

www.clsailboats.com

 

i'll have one or 2 with me at the J24 midwinters...if interested you may sail one.

 

 

5cjf44.jpg

nl50xt.jpg

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I love the picture of the girl carrying the boat under her arm! But it looks more like a glorified windsurfer than a boat. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't fit most American yacht club venues. Definitely a beach boat, sailed in a wetsuit or drysuit. Can it stand up by itself at a dock? Can I sail twilights in normal clothes? It's also pretty expensive.

 

I think because everything that can be said has been said about the hoot in other threads until Doug gets time to put it into production. There is a possibility of a hoot/moth demo day in SF at the end of march so hopefully that can kickstart something too.

 

FYI, the hoot stands up at the dock with no wind. With some wind pushing the rig it will rest on a wing but not capsize unless you really have no clue.....

 

It should fit any venue as the wings come off in about 30 secs.

 

I am not sure about the wetsuit/drysuit comment - I think from a wet point of view, does anything get wetter than a laser? Dragging your arse that close to the water all the time. All these single handers are wet, the hoot you are higher out of the water than most. Whether you wear a wet or drysuit for any of these boats will depend on the temperature.

 

And finally - is it expensive? $7K? that seems to be right in the price range of a lot of these boats.

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I think because everything that can be said has been said about the hoot in other threads until Doug gets time to put it into production. There is a possibility of a hoot/moth demo day in SF at the end of march so hopefully that can kickstart something too.

 

FYI, the hoot stands up at the dock with no wind. With some wind pushing the rig it will rest on a wing but not capsize unless you really have no clue.....

 

It should fit any venue as the wings come off in about 30 secs.

 

I am not sure about the wetsuit/drysuit comment - I think from a wet point of view, does anything get wetter than a laser? Dragging your arse that close to the water all the time. All these single handers are wet, the hoot you are higher out of the water than most. Whether you wear a wet or drysuit for any of these boats will depend on the temperature.

 

And finally - is it expensive? $7K? that seems to be right in the price range of a lot of these boats.

Ditto but unfortunately even if 7 k is the right price its still to much for me :(

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I love the picture of the girl carrying the boat under her arm! But it looks more like a glorified windsurfer than a boat. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't fit most American yacht club venues. Definitely a beach boat, sailed in a wetsuit or drysuit. Can it stand up by itself at a dock? Can I sail twilights in normal clothes? It's also pretty expensive.

Talk about defining why the Seppos are crap at dinghies...

 

> Can it stand up by itself at a dock?

> Can I sail twilights in normal clothes?

 

The answer to both is No, its a dinghy, not a keelboat

And the answer to the price is "not compared to any keelboat of vaguely comparable performance".

 

There's nothing wrong with sailing 2knot s***tbox dinghies if you want to, but criticising a racing dinghy because its not one is something that really could only happen in the USA...

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Can I sail twilights in normal clothes?

Um, I would say the answer that applies to all of these boats to this question is "no". They're all wet boats. All fast racing dinghies are. You seem to have wandered into the wrong forum section.

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Talk about defining why the Seppos are crap at dinghies...

 

> Can it stand up by itself at a dock?

> Can I sail twilights in normal clothes?

 

The answer to both is No, its a dinghy, not a keelboat

And the answer to the price is "not compared to any keelboat of vaguely comparable performance".

 

There's nothing wrong with sailing 2knot s***tbox dinghies if you want to, but criticising a racing dinghy because its not one is something that really could only happen in the USA...

 

 

pathetic isnt it?

 

wait till the legal cases come out in case someone breaks a nail..... oh the humanity!!!!

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I love the picture of the girl carrying the boat under her arm! But it looks more like a glorified windsurfer than a boat. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't fit most American yacht club venues. Definitely a beach boat, sailed in a wetsuit or drysuit. Can it stand up by itself at a dock? Can I sail twilights in normal clothes? It's also pretty expensive.

I've not seen too may fast boats that aren't wet. Hell I get just as soaked in my O30 when the it blows hard. True when the wind is light, I could sail in my work clothes but then there is no way I'd try that in a laser or most dinghys any time. If you want to stay high and dry, stay in massive leadmines.

 

Like many, I find this kind of thinking rather silly. One of the reasons I love dinghys is that you do get wet, it is very wild, and I don't care if it doesn't stand at the dock as long as it raises the adrenaline levels off the scale when I'm sailing. I get that from my Swift almost every time I go sailing and maybe once or twice per year with the leadmines and that is when it is blowing dogs off the chain, but then too I'm suited up because I'm getting very wet. To each their own I guess.

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Yeeeah... obviously that guy is a crackhead. Not sure which decent perf singlehander he's sailing where you won't get wet.

 

Phantom looks nice even though it might be old. hey when talking about a boat can we throw in some Portsmouth numbers (UK or US) and compare to the Laser and/or Finn for reference.

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Phantom looks nice even though it might be old. hey when talking about a boat can we throw in some Portsmouth numbers (UK or US) and compare to the Laser and/or Finn for reference.

 

Seriously, and thinking about it, the Phantom really would make the perfect dinghy for the US, optimum competitive weight is around the 100k mark (220 lbs) and the modern epoxy hulls are bullet proof...

 

2007shoreham_baker_2.jpg

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from the rya website

 

RS300 = 1000

Phanthom = 1043

Blaze = 1047

Finn = 1068

Laser = 1078

Raidal = 1101

Solo = 1155

Byte = 1162

 

 

The Phantom handicap should closer to 1000 well thats what went on our PY return they cleaned up at the prize giving this year. Untouchable until its blowing over force 5 when they start to struggle.

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"The blaze for me is a great little boat. Borrowed one for last years nats and was dead impressed, a decent performance without the complication of trying to helm and trapeze. I've done my time hiking like a git out of a laser and getting the feeling your going nowhere whilst watching your new £400 plus sail steadily turn into something that looks like grannies bra (not fun or nice...). The blaze will plane up wind relatively easily and the sails are built to last and cost about the same as a lasers. Talk is that the new deck mould looks dead sexy and they're going to be built out of epoxy by rondars. I for one will be putting my money where my mouth is"

 

wookiem - Glad you enjoyed it ! Are U on for this years Nationals at Stone SC ? ... maybe in one of your own even ? It was not even ideal Blaze conditions at Warsash last time, a bit on the light side so you should really try it in proper wind as well. We have all done the Laser thing - great boat for many reasons but there are some really great alternatives a well. I'm biased of course but aside the Blaze I've always liked the OK, a Finn for Laser sailors really even if a bit slow by modern standards. Amongst my other one-time favourites is the RS 300, a bit tricky at first but another fine boat especially in lighter stuff on flat water but maybe not in a gusty 20+kn on solent chop ! It can be a tough little b*****d then and the fleet shrinks rapidly. If you carry plenty of weight then the Phantom really must be on the 'look-at' - highly refined today, a handicap bandit for sure, and can be a bit pricey but like others I'm surprised the US has not grabbed at it with both hands. But then again many of you there seem to migrate into the lead mines once a bit of financial flexibility is found :-)

 

As said before we are developing a Blaze derivative for bigger blokes ourselves - stable(ish) platform, wide racks, simple rig, plenty of sail (11.5+m), responsive high aspect tall mast (7.15m), light(er) epoxy hull etc - nothing too extreme so more people can enjoy it for much more of the time. Plane upwind and down without second sail complications, weight and cost - and for more of the time even if 'heavy'.

 

But for now if you want to join us or 'to try a boat' simple contact the CA. Not for everyone of course - that would be boring - but it costs nothing to try one. But whatever you sail just enjoy it - we all just shoot the breeze on these forums.

 

Mike L.

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Talk is that the new deck mould looks dead sexy and they're going to be built out of epoxy by rondars.

Mike L.

Is That really a good thing Rondars reputation is not that great?

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Is That really a good thing Rondars reputation is not that great?

Lot better than RS' Brazilian builder for one...

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Is That really a good thing Rondars reputation is not that great?

seems to depend on the sort of boat, doesn't it? I thought 5oh sailors in particular go a bit weak at the knees at the prospect of a Rondar, don't they? On the other hand, the Fireflies seem to be made entirely by the Work Experience lads, without supervision (from experience). But then the Rondar B14 hulls are still competitive.

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seems to depend on the sort of boat, doesn't it? I thought 5oh sailors in particular go a bit weak at the knees at the prospect of a Rondar, don't they? On the other hand, the Fireflies seem to be made entirely by the Work Experience lads, without supervision (from experience). But then the Rondar B14 hulls are still competitive.

 

With the exception of Ovingtons I would have said that Rondars were the best small boat builders in the uk.

 

Al, your quote on the "work experience lads" sounds a bit far fetched doesnt it? How many fireflies do they churn out? quite a few i reckon, how many work experience lads are there in that corner of the world?

 

Mike, will be at stone in may. Can't wait :)

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[quote name='Speng' date='Jan 11 2008, 09:51 PM' post='1495342'

While the title is beyond the Laser it could also read Beyond the Finn.

 

The Laser is a 30+ year old design what do you think of the newer sit-in singlehanders.

Examples RS300, RS Vareo, CL Stealth, Raider, Bongo, Blaze, Hoot, Mega Byte, Byte.]

 

Back to the subject, I bought a Raider a few years ago, with no regrets. Lively, easy to sail, good performance and very comfortable. (especially for two as compared to the others mentioned).I don't race it much, but others who do, do very well.

See the Mug race results for the last several years.

Speng, Iv'e read your comments in the past and its obvious you haven't sailed one. There are several at Lake Murray and one at WCSC. Contact Waters Sails. They make the Raider sails and can demo the boat.

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if there's one at WCSC I'll try it out as i'm a member there. My ass also has a date with a Melges 17 at the club too.

 

On another note I saw one of those Hobie trimaran kayak thingies at the Atlanta boat show and I was intriged. Once the kayakers get the knack of sailing they'll put down the paddles plus those Hobie foot pump thingies look intriguing also.

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if there's one at WCSC I'll try it out as i'm a member there. My ass also has a date with a Melges 17 at the club too.

 

On another note I saw one of those Hobie trimaran kayak thingies at the Atlanta boat show and I was intriged. Once the kayakers get the knack of sailing they'll put down the paddles plus those Hobie foot pump thingies look intriguing also.

 

 

I'll have a stealth in Tampa for the J24 Midwinters and in St pete for the Noods...pm me if you want to try to get down during that week....

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I'll have a stealth in Tampa for the J24 Midwinters and in St pete for the Noods...pm me if you want to try to get down during that week....

190520,

 

What are the dates you'll be in FL? (yes ,I'm too lazy to figure it out on my own!) I am slated to be in Ft. Lauderdale for the last week of March... could easily extend to go Stealthing...

 

M

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Sorry I don't sail painboxes anymore (J24s). I like the look of the boat. What do you think the Portsmouth number might be?

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190520,

 

What are the dates you'll be in FL? (yes ,I'm too lazy to figure it out on my own!) I am slated to be in Ft. Lauderdale for the last week of March... could easily extend to go Stealthing...

 

M

 

 

i'd have to check my schedule...i'm in key west now and my schedule isnt....lol.

 

we'll work something out no doubt... the more folks the better....it's a cool boat and i'm pushing to start class racing as many as possible.

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Sorry I don't sail painboxes anymore (J24s). I like the look of the boat. What do you think the Portsmouth number might be?

 

 

I have no idea what the PY numbers would be.... someone else here would be better able to estimate what he numbers would most likely be... i'm sure.

 

 

I may be able to bring one or 2 to charleston race week..... if interested, let me know.

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you should definitely carry a couple to CRW.

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I'll have a stealth in Tampa for the J24 Midwinters and in St pete for the Noods...pm me if you want to try to get down during that week....

 

I would like to try one during the St Pete NOODs. You will find us with the Vipers. I hope to have my rig up early Thursday, go for a shake down sail. So maybe Thursday late afternoon?

 

 

How idiot proof is this thing?

 

J

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I have no idea what the PY numbers would be.... someone else here would be better able to estimate what he numbers would most likely be... i'm sure.

I may be able to bring one or 2 to charleston race week..... if interested, let me know.

 

Vipers will be at CRW as well. I'll be there.

St Pete might be easier for launching. We could go to the public beach.

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Hey Mr. Broken Record! Have some respect and go find yourself an SB3 thread to hijack. This one's about regular Lasers, you know, single handed dinghies.

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Hey Mr. Broken Record! Have some respect and go find yourself an SB3 thread to hijack. This one's about regular Lasers, you know, single handed dinghies.

Awww come on. Let's get the cat sailors in on this and we can debate the merrits of A's and H14's. Oh they have traps, my bad. :lol:

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I would like to try one during the St Pete NOODs. You will find us with the Vipers. I hope to have my rig up early Thursday, go for a shake down sail. So maybe Thursday late afternoon?

 

 

How idiot proof is this thing?

 

J

 

 

idiot proof...hmmm....i can sail it, so it's mildly idiot proof. :lol:

 

i'm thinking about sailing it from davis island to st pete against the J24's or with the j24's on thier fun feeder race to st pete....so i'll stay in touch with you as to my plans....i'm hoping to have 2 boats..that is if mine is completed by then....

either way, i'll be doing some photo shoots and demos all week

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you should definitely carry a couple to CRW.

 

 

planning on it however i'm not too sure about launching....but thats a minor detail....

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ok guys.... ive had a LOT of interest in the Stealth this week at KWRW and many of you want to give her a good flogging....

 

if you're seriously interested in sailing the stealth, PM me with your name, email and cell# so i can coordinate everything....

 

nysi9i.jpg

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ok guys.... ive had a LOT of interest in the Stealth this week at KWRW and many of you want to give her a good flogging....

 

if you're seriously interested in sailing the stealth, PM me with your name, email and cell# so i can coordinate everything....

 

nysi9i.jpg

PM sent. St Pete or CRW. C ya there.

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i'm still not sold on this Stealth, i mean come on, it has check stays!

 

 

how many $1000 masts would you be willing to bust before you used a check stay?

 

 

it's ok ross....we understand your aversion to anything more than a mainsheet and a tiller...yer a laser sailor :lol::lol:

 

 

 

when yer cleared to sail without the hockey helmet....gimme a shout.... :blink::lol: j/k

 

 

all bs aside....the stays work....they keep the rig from inverting when the kite is up....nothing more. upwind they do nothing as they are slack.

 

 

the stays were really important when i was using the 200sqft masthead kite.....with the 120sqft screecher, i'm not sold on thier need...i have a 145sqft kite being made as i type this so, for now, the stays stay so to speak....

 

understand that the tip of the mast is about the same diameter as a half dollar.... and it's waaaay too nice to bust at this point.

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PM sent. St Pete or CRW. C ya there.

 

 

gotcha.....i'm up for a sail on a viper.....may keep us from buying a melges 20 or sb3......

 

did i say that out loud?

 

i'll be in touch...

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if you're seriously interested in sailing the stealth, PM me with your name, email and cell# so i can coordinate everything....

 

PM sent, but it looks like I won't be going to Florida after all (I get to go to Fargo in February instead! Wow, I love this part of my job). Have to cross paths somehwere...

 

 

Fargo. Jesus.

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PM sent, but it looks like I won't be going to Florida after all (I get to go to Fargo in February instead! Wow, I love this part of my job). Have to cross paths somehwere...

 

 

Fargo. Jesus.

 

 

gotcha.... fargo eh?

 

may i suggest a raise might be in order?

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gotcha.... fargo eh?

 

may i suggest a raise might be in order?

 

You make an excellent point, one that I will no doubt be considering as I chisel my rented Hyundai Shitcannu out of the ice bank in a couple weeks. Unfortunately I am at the top of the heap... I have somehow managed to become both specialized and competent, and when someone in Fargo needs what I can do, unfortunately I have to go to Fargo -- at least until Canada buys Belize and I can have all my customers come to me there.

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it's ok ross....we understand your aversion to anything more than a mainsheet and a tiller...yer a laser sailor :

 

don't forget I also have a deep burning passion for preventers/JC straps!

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You make an excellent point, one that I will no doubt be considering as I chisel my rented Hyundai Shitcannu out of the ice bank in a couple weeks. Unfortunately I am at the top of the heap... I have somehow managed to become both specialized and competent, and when someone in Fargo needs what I can do, unfortunately I have to go to Fargo -- at least until Canada buys Belize and I can have all my customers come to me there.

 

 

lol, not competent AND specialized!?!?

 

expect a pink slip instead.. :lol:

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don't forget I also have a deep burning passion for preventers/JC straps!

 

 

what one laser sailor does with a preventer and a JC strap behind closed doors is no one's buisness.....

 

if ya toss in a midget tranny on a donkey, i'm all ears :blink:

 

OLAY!

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oh get a room already you two.

 

straps, sheets, olympic positions, poles

 

freaks ! :lol:

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oh get a room already you two.

 

straps, sheets, olympic positions, poles

 

freaks ! :lol:

 

 

 

you weren't there there first time he heard "blow the guy" were you?

 

suffice it to say that rounding was a.....uh.....mouthful :blink::unsure::lol:

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The US PY number for a Finn is 90.1 iirc, and the number for a Megabyte with the original rig is 90.9. I have seen a provisional number of 89.9 for the boat with the new rig and sail plan. It looks like the Megabyte delivers on the promise of being a simple, well built, relatively fast and fun boat to sail for a larger sailor who wants to single-hand. I hope so. I just bought one and am looking forward to doing some traveling around to different events doing some fleet building.

 

That's the one negative I can see with the Megabyte: they have sold over 360 hulls in ten years to sailors in the US, Canada, and the UK, but for the most part people are spread all over with the only real concentrations being in Vancouver, the SF Bay area, Massachusetts, and south Florida, and no one seems to be trying to market them with nationals-level events. Other than that it looks to be exactly what I was looking for.

 

RD

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can we keep it moderately serious?

 

 

buzzkiller......

i contacted US sailing about PY no.s for the stealth....awaiting thier responce.... i'm hoping to get down to your springboard event AND i'm hoping to have 2 boats one for me and one for whomever wants to give it a whirl.

 

 

any rules on midget trannies on donkeys? i saw something about no pets.....

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any rules on midget trannies on donkeys? i saw something about no pets.....

 

donkeys are not pets, they are "work animals".

so you're cool.

seriously.

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any rules on midget trannies on donkeys? i saw something about no pets.....

 

 

donkeys are not pets, they are "work animals".

so you're cool.

seriously.

 

sweet

my ass is covered then

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Have to throw in my 2 cents: if you are even thinking of a Megabyte you should look into the new Mk II rig:

 

http://www.ps2000.biz/classes/megabyte/pag...ome_story_1.php

 

At the risk of being pedantic, let me just add this: The idea behind this upgrade is the same as that behind the Byte CII rig (although the Megabyte has a carbon stick to begin with, I think). These rigs aren't just designed to improve appearances. They change the whole game by following one simple principle--disentangling the control of draft shape and twist. With a Laser and everything else with the standard cat rig, you flatten the main upwind by cranking hard on the sheet--which also closes (and powers up) the leech. What you gain in flatness more makes up for what you lose by taking all the twist out--but at a cost: Finns, Lasers, Europes, original Bytes, etc., etc. all end up with an optimum sailor weight. The new rigs on the PS2000 boats let you control both independently--the cunningham flexes the mast forward when you crank it on. It actually does what a backstay on a keelboat does, and draft shape pretty much stays put with the full battens regardless of what do with the cunningham. The mainsheet is then free to control twist exclusively (the trav controls angle of attack upwind; even the small Byte has a fully functional traveler on a track). Trimming this is really very different beast from the decades-old Laser design. It also flattens the playing field by doing away with the target weight--with so much control over sail power you trim to your weight rather than eat or diet for the boat. When considering what boat you want I think one should keep this innovation in the mind.

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From the photos I have seen and the reading I have done it would appear that the settings are very Finn-like on the MKII rig for Megabytes. I am a lot more familiar with sailing that way than what I have read about the original rig. I will be ordering the new rig and sail within the next month.

 

RD

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i'll be in touch...

 

Did anyone see the Stealth at the St Pete NOOD? I was distracted so I didn't look too hard.

 

Did you say you were going to CRW?

 

J

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buzzkiller......

i contacted US sailing about PY no.s for the stealth....awaiting thier responce.... i'm hoping to get down to your springboard event AND i'm hoping to have 2 boats one for me and one for whomever wants to give it a whirl.

any rules on midget trannies on donkeys? i saw something about no pets.....

 

:D The midget trannies are OK. Trust me there's been tranny action at the club before :o but absolutely not on the donkey. The club is super-nazi on the pets.

 

If US Sailing doesn't get back to you bring the boat and I'm sure Brian will hash something out.

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Did anyone see the Stealth at the St Pete NOOD? I was distracted so I didn't look too hard.

 

Did you say you were going to CRW?

 

J

 

 

hey man, i was there but the boat was at davis island as i did the J24 midwinters there and a shoot with tim wlkes then a sail to st pete then the 3 days of drifting....all that and my truck puked on me....so it wasnt there in st pete. however the vipers looked cool.... I'm working on a ride for charleston, otherwise it's just me dragging a boat down for a sail....so stay tuned....

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