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Eric

J109 J120 stress cracking in keel hull connection

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I had Ian haul out my J120 to power wash the bottom today and to my surprise there were a lot of cracks in the area between the hull and the keel. The cracks run the whole length of the joint on both port and starboard side. I found cracking on the inside of the sump as well. Ian was concerned with it's safety. The boat doesn't leak but I don't think I want to take this boat on the Oregon Offshore this year in this condition. Maybe not even the Blakely Rocks race this weekend?

 

The folks at CSR said that there is a similar problem with the J109 and that Pearson Composites has redesigned the sump area on the 109 to reduce flexing.

About the J109s I found: While we had tremendous success as a class, we also faced some challenges. J/Boats and Pearson Composites identified a weak area in the sump that lead to excessive flexing in the keel and resulted in stress fractures in some US manufactured boats. With the help of third party composite and engineering specialists, J/Boats and Pearson developed an upgrade kit to strengthen the affected area. To date, over 100 upgrade kits have been shipped and all US manufactured boats are scheduled to be retrofit at the owners’ option. This has no doubt caused some concern among owners and raised questions with potential buyers. The good news is that the class has met the challenge and is working its way through the solution. We thank J/Boats and Pearson for standing by us and protecting our investment.

 

This J120 has been raced hard for 12 years in a lot of offshore and rough coastal conditions. I thought the dump truck was bullet proof but maybe not so much.

post-1849-1204164860_thumb.jpg

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One or 2 of the 120s listed on yachtworld talk about hull & sump stiffening; you might want to call those brokers who might be willing to put you in touch with the owners who did the work.

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Some of the early J120s had the keel/sump area reinforced to stop flexing. I think hulls 20 and earlier. What hull number you got?

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I have seen many keel to hull joint cracks but allways a rather straight crack and usually just cosmetic on older design boats. The stress fractures in your photo would give me pause as well. I think you are wise to investigate fully.

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Just sail the thing till the keel falls off. Your insurance won't pay much to fix it anyway so you may as well go for a new boat. Next time get a fast boat.

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I have J120 #82 and sailed it hard for the last 4 years. I have never seen any cracking in my keel/sump joint. I have also never seen it on any other boat and I always look when I see a J120 on the hard. I have maybe looked at 10 other boats (there were well over 200 built).

 

Anyway, there may be a problem with the keel bolts? Have they been re-torqued? Do they look ok? If the bolts are at issue and the keel starts to move, that could cause all kinds of cracking inside and outside of the sump area.

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Just sail the thing till the keel falls off. Your insurance won't pay much to fix it anyway so you may as well go for a new boat. Next time get a fast boat.

At least 1 j80 looks exactly like that along with a crack on the side of the keel at the top of the lead. Both have been ground out, filled, and had the keel bolts checked/retorqued but they just came back. We even get a slow leak from the side crack when we pull the boat out so you know the bolts are a little suspect at this point. J Boats isn't too concerned but then again they didn't seem to mind that our rudder was hung a bit canted from the factory (port tack was great, stb not so much). So, this seems that your 120 and this j80 were born on a monday and that this is a sporadic J problem. You can try to fix it or follow T22's advise as I have. Good luck.

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Some of the early J120s had the keel/sump area reinforced to stop flexing. I think hulls 20 and earlier. What hull number you got?

 

 

I talked with J Boats about this issue, when I was shopping for a 120. What I was told, was that all of the early hulls that needed rebuilding of the sump area had the work done. I think it was mostly boats built in '94 and '95 that needed rebuilding.

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I talked with J Boats about this issue, when I was shopping for a 120. What I was told, was that all of the early hulls that needed rebuilding of the sump area had the work done. I think it was mostly boats built in '94 and '95 that needed rebuilding.

 

Anyway, there may be a problem with the keel bolts? Have they been re-torqued? Do they look ok? If the bolts are at issue and the keel starts to move, that could cause all kinds of cracking inside and outside of the sump area.

 

This boat is hull number 50 so it has the design improvements as stock. In this design, the joint where the lead bulb connects to the fiberglass boot/stump is about 12 inches down the keel from where it connects to the hull. If the keel bolts where loose then I would expect cracking at the interface between the lead and the boot but there is no sign of trouble there. Most of the bolt-nuts are in a sump inside the keel and are actually few inches lower than the keel hull joint. The keel hull joint where this next photo is taken is all fiberglass. The paint is two different colors and I sanded it some to see what was going on so the dark red is showing through the blue. The big cracks are deep looking to the eye.

post-1849-1204211357_thumb.jpg

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If those cracks are running the full span of the keel root they are indicating flex! Sand the paint off entirely so you can see how deep the cracks are in the structure. Are there any signs of cracking on the inside of the sump? Look carefully at the floors that go down into the sump - not only in the sump, but also out to the berth edges. Somewhere along there you may find more indicators. Repair will be based on what you can find. The warrantee repair of the early hulls added two hat section stringers running fore/aft halfway between the keel & the berth edges. IIRC there were no additional floors added. (confirm that with J after you determine the full extent of cracking)

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Get over it and put the boat back in the water and go racing.

 

The boat has been raced (hard?) for 12 years and this is the first time you have had a keel joint issue.

 

I'd be in heaven. The keel joint on my 20 year old 30' has to be worked on every year. I've had the boat for 5 years and every year I get a new crack. The keel just flexes there.

 

Fix it when you have time.

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Get over it and put the boat back in the water and go racing.

The boat has been raced (hard?) for 12 years and this is the first time you have had a keel joint issue.

I'd be in heaven. The keel joint on my 20 year old 30' has to be worked on every year. I've had the boat for 5 years and every year I get a new crack. The keel just flexes there.

Fix it when you have time.

 

Seems to be only fairing

No worries

 

The cracking in this case is not where the lead meets the fiberglass which is common to many designs and if it were only that area it would be benign. On the J120 there is a fiberglass stump that goes down about 15" below the bottom of the hull and it is the shape of the upper part of the keel. The cracking on hull #50 is in the stump where it connects to the hull. It is much more significant (as I am finding out from Pearson Composites and CSR Marine today) because it is the fiberglass structure that is cracking. I have to move the boat 70 miles to get to Seattle and CSR told me to do it with motor only and then only on a calm day. From the outside they will have to grind the glass until they get to unaffected layup. The more I use the boat now the deeper they will have to grind later. It will have to be ground out to feather up and down from the area of the cracking and then re-glassed using vacuum bagging. Then the source of the flexing will have to be corrected via engineering and more fiberglass work on the inside to improve the structure. Sounds like my sail budget for the next two years is shot. Sorry Jack.

post-1849-1204230404_thumb.jpg

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The cracking in this case is not where the lead meets the fiberglass which is common to many designs and if it were only that area it would be benign. On the J120 there is a fiberglass stump that goes down about 15" below the bottom of the hull and it is the shape of the upper part of the keel. The cracking on hull #50 is in the stump where it connects to the hull. It is much more significant (as I am finding out from Pearson Composites and CSR Marine today) because it is the fiberglass structure that is cracking. I have to move the boat 70 miles to get to Seattle and CSR told me to do it with motor only and then only on a calm day. From the outside they will have to grind the glass until they get to unaffected layup. The more I use the boat now the deeper they will have to grind later. It will have to be ground out to feather up and down from the area of the cracking and then re-glassed using vacuum bagging. Then the source of the flexing will have to be corrected via engineering and more fiberglass work on the inside to improve the structure. Sounds like my sail budget for the next two years is shot. Sorry Jack.

 

I'm sure that Jack will survive. Just glad that you found it before it became a "DRUM" type situation. CSR is the place to be.

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What happened to this boat? This type of cracking could not have just appeared overnight. There must have been a chronic issue working for awhile, or a grounding or something similar.

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The cracking in this case is not where the lead meets the fiberglass which is common to many designs and if it were only that area it would be benign. On the J120 there is a fiberglass stump that goes down about 15" below the bottom of the hull and it is the shape of the upper part of the keel. The cracking on hull #50 is in the stump where it connects to the hull. It is much more significant (as I am finding out from Pearson Composites and CSR Marine today) because it is the fiberglass structure that is cracking. I have to move the boat 70 miles to get to Seattle and CSR told me to do it with motor only and then only on a calm day. From the outside they will have to grind the glass until they get to unaffected layup. The more I use the boat now the deeper they will have to grind later. It will have to be ground out to feather up and down from the area of the cracking and then re-glassed using vacuum bagging. Then the source of the flexing will have to be corrected via engineering and more fiberglass work on the inside to improve the structure. Sounds like my sail budget for the next two years is shot. Sorry Jack.

Is the pic the forward or aft end? Do you have a pic of damage to the other end?

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BTW, I see the keel bolt nuts are stamped 304. You really want 316 Stainless in a Marine environment. The bolts are probably 304 as well which sucks.

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What happened to this boat? This type of cracking could not have just appeared overnight. There must have been a chronic issue working for awhile, or a grounding or something similar.

 

I think it is stress fatigue. It's not from a grounding. The J120 does not cut through waves very well, they tend to ride up over them and then slam down hard. 10 years of racing in PNW conditions, where wind against tide often occurs, have taken their toll. I also suspect that the design is not as great is it could be. The first 24 J120s all had this issue in spades and were redesigned in the hull-keel area. Hull #5 nearly sunk due to the keel falling off. The J105 and J109s are currently getting retrofitted in this area for the same issue - stress fatigue in the keel hull joint. Maybe the designer needed different engineers?

 

wavehoping.jpg

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BTW, I see the keel bolt nuts are stamped 304. You really want 316 Stainless in a Marine environment. The bolts are probably 304 as well which sucks.

 

The 304 series SS seem to be working out pretty well after 12 years of hard sailing.

 

He's got bigger fish to fry.

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While doing keel work it would be a good time to replace a 12 year old 304 SS nut. 304 isn't good for saltwater/anaerobic environments. It can visibly rust, and also have crevice corrosion that you wouldn't see, but could seriously weaken the nut.

 

By your logic you would say don't replace 12 year old rigging made of a inferior metal because it's working just fine after 12 years of hard sailing...

 

The 304 series SS seem to be working out pretty well after 12 years of hard sailing.

 

He's got bigger fish to fry.

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While doing keel work it would be a good time to replace a 12 year old 304 SS nut. 304 isn't good for saltwater/anaerobic environments. It can visibly rust, and also have crevice corrosion that you wouldn't see, but could seriously weaken the nut.

 

All this whining about 12 year old nuts? You should see what I have to sleep with.

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304 is exactly the right material grade for attaching a keel to a hull.

 

Me thinks the builder got it right.

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do any of the french 109 hulls have a keel sump problem?

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Upon reading about insurance, should this not be one for the insurance company to go after the builders?

 

Something about Subjogation (sic) or does this have to be a 'sudden' or an accident? Just asking.

 

Sail safe!

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Upon reading about insurance, should this not be one for the insurance company to go after the builders?

 

Something about Subjogation (sic) or does this have to be a 'sudden' or an accident? Just asking.

 

Sail safe!

 

 

Insurance won't cover faulty design or gradual deterioration. I just bought hull 98 and it was something to check. THere is not a sign of any wear in her yet. THe way we sail in Newfoundland, who know what will happen in the next few years :)

 

Tommy

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While doing keel work it would be a good time to replace a 12 year old 304 SS nut. 304 isn't good for saltwater/anaerobic environments. It can visibly rust, and also have crevice corrosion that you wouldn't see, but could seriously weaken the nut.

 

By your logic you would say don't replace 12 year old rigging made of a inferior metal because it's working just fine after 12 years of hard sailing...

 

No. My logic is purely an engineers perspective. 304 series has a higher ultimate tensile strenght, and slightly higher modulus in torsion than 316 series SS.

 

As Rossco pointed out it is the right material for attaching a keel to a hull.

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QUOTE(landloc @ Feb 27 2008, 09:34 PM) *

Why don't you try posting this on the J120 Owners forum?

 

http://www.j120.org/board/index.php

 

Because the most ever users online was 8?

 

8 J120 owners online at one time is probably more J120 owners than are on SA at any one time. The only J120 owner I know reads it regularly.

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QUOTE(landloc @ Feb 27 2008, 09:34 PM) *

Why don't you try posting this on the J120 Owners forum?

 

http://www.j120.org/board/index.php

 

 

Because the most ever users online was 8?

 

8 J120 owners online at one time is probably more J120 owners than are on SA at any one time. The only J120 owner I know reads it regularly.

 

 

That was Clean's remark and he is going to knock everybody out there. The J120 forum is not meant to compete with anarchy. It allows the J120 owners to talk among themselves without trolls coming out and throwing rocks at them.

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That was Clean's remark and he is going to knock everybody out there. The J120 forum is not meant to compete with anarchy. It allows the J120 owners to talk among themselves without trolls coming out and throwing rocks at them.

Miss ya, Frankie!

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Insurance won't cover faulty design or gradual deterioration. I just bought hull 98 and it was something to check. THere is not a sign of any wear in her yet. THe way we sail in Newfoundland, who know what will happen in the next few years :)

Tommy

My point exactly! This guy should just keep sailing the boat until it sinks and then the insurance would pay.

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That was Clean's remark and he is going to knock everybody out there. The J120 forum is not meant to compete with anarchy. It allows the J120 owners to talk among themselves without trolls coming out and throwing rocks at them.

 

That must mean it is a forum and not a chat room. How novel.

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Upon reading about insurance, should this not be one for the insurance company to go after the builders?

 

Something about Subjogation (sic) or does this have to be a 'sudden' or an accident? Just asking.

 

Sail safe!

 

 

 

In order to file a claim you need to be able to link it to an "occurrence" such as a grounding. They wont cove gradual deterioration.

 

And the word is subrogation.

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BTW, I see the keel bolt nuts are stamped 304. You really want 316 Stainless in a Marine environment. The bolts are probably 304 as well which sucks.

304 is stronger and will not corrode.

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The cracking in this case is not where the lead meets the fiberglass which is common to many designs and if it were only that area it would be benign. On the J120 there is a fiberglass stump that goes down about 15" below the bottom of the hull and it is the shape of the upper part of the keel. The cracking on hull #50 is in the stump where it connects to the hull. It is much more significant (as I am finding out from Pearson Composites and CSR Marine today) because it is the fiberglass structure that is cracking. I have to move the boat 70 miles to get to Seattle and CSR told me to do it with motor only and then only on a calm day. From the outside they will have to grind the glass until they get to unaffected layup. The more I use the boat now the deeper they will have to grind later. It will have to be ground out to feather up and down from the area of the cracking and then re-glassed using vacuum bagging. Then the source of the flexing will have to be corrected via engineering and more fiberglass work on the inside to improve the structure. Sounds like my sail budget for the next two years is shot. Sorry Jack.

 

Seems a little alarmist? Doubt the keel is going to fall off before you get to Seattle...

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304 is stronger and will not corrode.

This is incorrect. 316 is more resistant than 304 to corrosion, and even 316 can be a problem. I recently completed a study that demonstrated the presence of sodium chloride in a chemical reaction contributed to extensive corrosion. In the manufacturing environment, the batch turned green. Pretty sad when the chemists is explaining to the engineers that you have to replace all stainless 316 fittings and piping with Teflon coated plumbing.

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I think it is stress fatigue. It's not from a grounding. The J120 does not cut through waves very well, they tend to ride up over them and then slam down hard. 10 years of racing in PNW conditions, where wind against tide often occurs, have taken their toll. I also suspect that the design is not as great is it could be. The first 24 J120s all had this issue in spades and were redesigned in the hull-keel area. Hull #5 nearly sunk due to the keel falling off. The J105 and J109s are currently getting retrofitted in this area for the same issue - stress fatigue in the keel hull joint. Maybe the designer needed different engineers?

 

wavehoping.jpg

 

Might be a good time to read the liability waiver thread...

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This is incorrect. 316 is more resistant than 304 to corrosion, and even 316 can be a problem. I recently completed a study that demonstrated the presence of sodium chloride in a chemical reaction contributed to extensive corrosion. In the manufacturing environment, the batch turned green. Pretty sad when the chemists is explaining to the engineers that you have to replace all stainless 316 fittings and piping with Teflon coated plumbing.

 

316 IS more resistant to corrosion than 304 series SS.

 

In a non-cosmetic application like keel bolts and nuts, 304 is fine. As you can see from the above photo, the nuts and bolts are very slightly stained with rust.....nothing to worry about.

 

There's more to worry about on a boat (and in life), than slight rust staining on your keel bolts!!

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Insurance won't cover faulty design or gradual deterioration. I just bought hull 98 and it was something to check. THere is not a sign of any wear in her yet. THe way we sail in Newfoundland, who know what will happen in the next few years :)

 

Tommy

 

Hope that you enjoy hull 98 - we enjoyed competing against her in Detroit and she'll be missed!

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Insurance won't cover faulty design or gradual deterioration. I just bought hull 98 and it was something to check. THere is not a sign of any wear in her yet. THe way we sail in Newfoundland, who know what will happen in the next few years :)

 

Tommy

That boat (Merlin) did get used a lot in all conditions when the previous owner had it. He just took good care of it and she was sailed in fresh water. After talking to the old owner I think he has regretted selling it.

 

We will miss Merlin in Detroit. I think I am going to cry.......

post-600-1204469423_thumb.jpg

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Insurance won't cover faulty design or gradual deterioration. I just bought hull 98 and it was something to check. THere is not a sign of any wear in her yet. THe way we sail in Newfoundland, who know what will happen in the next few years :)

 

Tommy

 

btw if you use your irc certificate, get the float remeasured. IRC discriminates against freshwater boats.

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I looked at this 120. I turned out to be in the fairing only, no structual proplem.
What caused the cracking of the fairing in the photo? Seems to me that the fairing wouldn't crack unless the keel is flexing. I've had no cracks on my boat for 12 years and now its all over the joint. Why would it start flexing suddenly? It's time to grind the cracks out and find out how deep they are.

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What caused the cracking of the fairing in the photo? Seems to me that the fairing wouldn't crack unless the keel is flexing. I've had no cracks on my boat for 12 years and now its all over the joint. Why would it start flexing suddenly? It's time to grind the cracks out and find out how deep they are.

I'd suggest checking with J-Boats or a trusted shipwright. I have the impression from somewhere that it's considered necessary on many boats to re-torque keel bolts periodically to account for them stretching or shrinkage / compression of the glass and attendant looseness. If studs or bolts stretched a thousandth or three then it would seem possible for the keel to wobble enough to stress crack the bog.

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Thanks for the comments on Merlin guys, we have a big learning curve in front of us this year - we'll have to consult with the experts here at SA when the time comes!!

 

Tommy

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I thought you might want an update on the J120 keel cracking. CSR has removed the gel-coat in the area of the hull/keel and found no cracking in the fiberglass. They reported that the gel-coat was very tick in the high radius area of the sump and that may have made the gel-coat there more susceptible to cracking. The bog on the inside of the sump is not supporting the keel bolt in a couple of locations and that will need to be fortified.

 

Something all J120 owners might want to look into is that the washers installed on at least this J120 were iron rather than stainless steel. The keel bolts, nuts and backing plates were stainless however the washers were soft iron. They only found traces of the washers remaining. The washers had nearly completely rotted away which would have made the keel nut/bolts loose by the thickness of the washers.

 

 

CSR has put 4 layers of biaxial e-glass in the exposed area on the hull and keel and vacuum bagged into place. The gel-coat will not be replaced. Some additional stiffening in the sump and bog will be done.

 

Should be good to go soon.

post-1849-1205453522_thumb.jpg

post-1849-1205453570_thumb.jpg

post-1849-1205453628_thumb.jpg

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I thought you might want an update on the J120 keel cracking. CSR has removed the gel-coat in the area of the hull/keel and found no cracking in the fiberglass. They reported that the gel-coat was very tick in the high radius area of the sump and that may have made the gel-coat there more susceptible to cracking. The bog on the inside of the sump is not supporting the keel bolt in a couple of locations and that will need to be fortified.

 

Something all J120 owners might want to look into is that the washers installed on at least this J120 were iron rather than stainless steel. The keel bolts, nuts and backing plates were stainless however the washers were soft iron. They only found traces of the washers remaining. The washers had nearly completely rotted away which would have made the keel nut/bolts loose by the thickness of the washers.

CSR has put 4 layers of biaxial e-glass in the exposed area on the hull and keel and vacuum bagged into place. The gel-coat will not be replaced. Some additional stiffening in the sump and bog will be done.

 

Should be good to go soon.

 

Congratulations on the good news. Better safe than sorry! The keelbolt washers... Wow. I sail on #145 and thankfully, we have not had any sump issues. Will be sure to check the keelbolt washers. Good luck with the rest of your season.

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Is there a slot on the front of the keel for a kelp cutter?
No, with the sloping leading edge, kelp has never been a problem.

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Easy to be flippant. Not so easy when your keel really does fall off your J-Boat as happened in Hawaii: http://www.weatherguy.com/Rescue_at_Sea.htm

Sounds a bit like when the front fell off. See: The Front Fell Off

These boats are built with rigorous maritime standards except that this one was hit by a big wave.

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I thought you might want an update on the J120 keel cracking. CSR has removed the gel-coat in the area of the hull/keel and found no cracking in the fiberglass. They reported that the gel-coat was very tick in the high radius area of the sump and that may have made the gel-coat there more susceptible to cracking. The bog on the inside of the sump is not supporting the keel bolt in a couple of locations and that will need to be fortified.

 

Something all J120 owners might want to look into is that the washers installed on at least this J120 were iron rather than stainless steel. The keel bolts, nuts and backing plates were stainless however the washers were soft iron. They only found traces of the washers remaining. The washers had nearly completely rotted away which would have made the keel nut/bolts loose by the thickness of the washers.

CSR has put 4 layers of biaxial e-glass in the exposed area on the hull and keel and vacuum bagged into place. The gel-coat will not be replaced. Some additional stiffening in the sump and bog will be done.

 

Should be good to go soon.

 

CSR = Cosmic Space Rangers.

 

I shit you not.

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Something all J120 owners might want to look into is that the washers installed on at least this J120 were iron rather than stainless steel. The keel bolts, nuts and backing plates were stainless however the washers were soft iron. They only found traces of the washers remaining. The washers had nearly completely rotted away which would have made the keel nut/bolts loose by the thickness of the washers.

CSR has put 4 layers of biaxial e-glass in the exposed area on the hull and keel and vacuum bagged into place. The gel-coat will not be replaced. Some additional stiffening in the sump and bog will be done.

 

Should be good to go soon.

 

Why will you not replace the gel-coat? Surely you want to keep the water outside the hull?

 

(Iron washers!? Thats just appalling.)

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Why will you not replace the gel-coat? Surely you want to keep the water outside the hull?

 

(Iron washers!? Thats just appalling.)

 

Because he will probably build it up with epoxy, which is much more water resistant than gelcoat.

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Is this a stress crack?(from a J120 that didn't finish the SD Noods, and no, I don't know anything about it, just received the emailed picture from a friend))

It sure looks like they hit a rock at full speed.

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Is this a stress crack?

post-4941-1205766456_thumb.jpg

(from a J120 that didn't finish the SD Noods, and no, I don't know anything about it, just received the emailed picture from a friend))

 

 

Ouch judging by the amount of water coming out of that hole its lucky they didnt sink.

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Is this a stress crack?

post-4941-1205766456_thumb.jpg

(from a J120 that didn't finish the SD Noods, and no, I don't know anything about it, just received the emailed picture from a friend))

Hasl Free?

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Is this a stress crack?

post-4941-1205766456_thumb.jpg

(from a J120 that didn't finish the SD Noods, and no, I don't know anything about it, just received the emailed picture from a friend))

 

 

Wonder what the trailing edge where it meets the hull looks like?

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I once talked to a high ranking Jboat person about the problem of building a boat that will go 12 to 15 knots, then engineering a keel that would stay on after hitting a rock at that speed. He said you have to draw a line between strength, budget and performance. The keel would have to look like one from an Island Piglet to not sustain any damage at that speed after hitting something solid. Yes they could engineer it, but no one would buy it.

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I once talked to a high ranking Jboat person about the problem of building a boat that will go 12 to 15 knots, then engineering a keel that would stay on after hitting a rock at that speed. He said you have to draw a line between strength, budget and performance. The keel would have to look like one from an Island Piglet to not sustain any damage at that speed after hitting something solid. Yes they could engineer it, but no one would buy it.
The build of some boats is pretty far away from the line you referred to. The new inexpensive ultra lights come to mind. Lord help the crew if they drive one of those into a rock doing 15 knots.

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What In The Hell Happened?

(from Sailing Anarchy 2002)

 

 

Check this out. These pics are from a J/105 that raced in the Gulfport to Pensacola race this past June. The race starts in Mississippi Sound just outside Gulfport, MS, and ends at the Sea Buoy at the Pensacola Ship Channel. It is a 100 nm overnight race and usually is a light/med air broad reach for most of the way. This year it was a 100 mile dead upwind slog in 20-35 kts and 10 ft seas. It started out nice at the noon start, winds around 10-12 but just before sunset started picking up in the high teens and dead on the nose. By around 9 pm the winds were holding steady in the 22-25 kts range with some gusts above 30. No storms, beautiful night to sail but honking winds and waves.

 

j105%20keel%20.JPG

 

About half of the 103 boat fleet dropped out at some point and we heard some mayday calls on the radio during the night for the CG to come help some boats in distress. In particular, Mad Max, a J/120 almost lost it's keel and had to be towed into Mobile, AL by the CG al the while being pumped to stay afloat. At the post race party, we heard that the J/105 had some damage to it's hull that occurred right AFTER they crossed the finish line. I'm not sure but I think they had to get CG help too because they were taking on water. I never thought anything about it again until I was cruising around a local boatyard here in Pensacola and saw the same J/105 on the hard. When I went to look closer - HOLY SHIT! I thought at first that they had hit something submerged but then upon closer inspection there doesn't appear to be any scrape marks at the "impact point" that you would expect if they hit something. Ditto for the keel damage area. I don't know the real story, but I think the keel and hull were damaged from the 20 hours of pounding through waves. It looks as if the keel tried to twist itself off and the hull just flexed and finally cracked. I may be wrong but that's surely what it looks like to me. I can't believe they were able to stay afloat with that much open to water intrusion. Just to be clear I do NOT know the absolute truth about the damage. The hearsay at the party (assumedly started by the crew itself) was the hull had "delaminated" right after the finish. That was the word used. The buzz at the post-race party was they heard a loud crack right after the finish line and had to get assistance. Not sure the extent of what help they needed but from the pics it looks like they would have been taking on water at a pretty fast rate. Fortunately the finish was a couple of hours after sunrise so at least it wasn't dark. At first I though they either hit something or ran aground but I don't think either happened. There is no obvious damage to the bottom of the keel or bulb to show a hard aground (plus its all sand here anyway) and there are no scrapes or impact point on the hull to cause the big dent and crack. The scrape you see in the pic looks like its from a block from the support stands as if they moved it once. I would think an impact that bad would have scrapes all down the side of the hull. Picture 4

Anyway, just thought you might be interested since there are a lot of J/105s out your way.

Jeff B

09/11/2002

 

j105%20portside1.JPG

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I don't know the history on this boat but here's a pic sent to me after the SD NOOD regatta. It's a j120 that started to take on water after the first race on Saturday.

post-5014-1205849115_thumb.jpg

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Hasl Free?
Does anyone know more about what happened to Hasl Free in the San Diego NOOD?

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Does anyone know more about what happened to Hasl Free in the San Diego NOOD?

see picture above your post

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see picture above your post
Yes thank you , but what happened to it. Did it just fall off a wave or did they run aground?

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What In The Hell Happened?

(from Sailing Anarchy 2002)

 

 

Check this out. These pics are from a J/105 that raced in the Gulfport to Pensacola race this past June. The race starts in Mississippi Sound just outside Gulfport, MS, and ends at the Sea Buoy at the Pensacola Ship Channel. It is a 100 nm overnight race and usually is a light/med air broad reach for most of the way. This year it was a 100 mile dead upwind slog in 20-35 kts and 10 ft seas. It started out nice at the noon start, winds around 10-12 but just before sunset started picking up in the high teens and dead on the nose. By around 9 pm the winds were holding steady in the 22-25 kts range with some gusts above 30. No storms, beautiful night to sail but honking winds and waves.

 

j105%20keel%20.JPG

 

About half of the 103 boat fleet dropped out at some point and we heard some mayday calls on the radio during the night for the CG to come help some boats in distress. In particular, Mad Max, a J/120 almost lost it's keel and had to be towed into Mobile, AL by the CG al the while being pumped to stay afloat. At the post race party, we heard that the J/105 had some damage to it's hull that occurred right AFTER they crossed the finish line. I'm not sure but I think they had to get CG help too because they were taking on water. I never thought anything about it again until I was cruising around a local boatyard here in Pensacola and saw the same J/105 on the hard. When I went to look closer - HOLY SHIT! I thought at first that they had hit something submerged but then upon closer inspection there doesn't appear to be any scrape marks at the "impact point" that you would expect if they hit something. Ditto for the keel damage area. I don't know the real story, but I think the keel and hull were damaged from the 20 hours of pounding through waves. It looks as if the keel tried to twist itself off and the hull just flexed and finally cracked. I may be wrong but that's surely what it looks like to me. I can't believe they were able to stay afloat with that much open to water intrusion. Just to be clear I do NOT know the absolute truth about the damage. The hearsay at the party (assumedly started by the crew itself) was the hull had "delaminated" right after the finish. That was the word used. The buzz at the post-race party was they heard a loud crack right after the finish line and had to get assistance. Not sure the extent of what help they needed but from the pics it looks like they would have been taking on water at a pretty fast rate. Fortunately the finish was a couple of hours after sunrise so at least it wasn't dark. At first I though they either hit something or ran aground but I don't think either happened. There is no obvious damage to the bottom of the keel or bulb to show a hard aground (plus its all sand here anyway) and there are no scrapes or impact point on the hull to cause the big dent and crack. The scrape you see in the pic looks like its from a block from the support stands as if they moved it once. I would think an impact that bad would have scrapes all down the side of the hull. Picture 4

Anyway, just thought you might be interested since there are a lot of J/105s out your way.

Jeff B

09/11/2002

 

j105%20portside1.JPG

crikey, it looks they've snapped it in half by putting too much backstay on...

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"Yes thank you , but what happened to it. Did it just fall off a wave or did they run aground?"

 

there was no mention of hitting anything. the conditions were quite rough, several members were bruised up from falling and a few others were sick. when they saw the water in the bilge they decided heading in was the best bet, luckily they did not opt to stay out a for the next race.

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"Yes thank you , but what happened to it. Did it just fall off a wave or did they run aground?"

 

there was no mention of hitting anything. the conditions were quite rough, several members were bruised up from falling and a few others were sick. when they saw the water in the bilge they decided heading in was the best bet, luckily they did not opt to stay out a for the next race.

I sure would like to know why the keel failed and the hull number. Can you PM with some contact information?

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I don't know the history on this boat but here's a pic sent to me after the SD NOOD regatta. It's a J120 that started to take on water after the first race on Saturday.
I sure would like to know why the keel failed and the hull number. Can you PM with some contact information?

Call Bob Ross at Sail Northwest about it. He'll know whole the story.

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What In The Hell Happened?

(from Sailing Anarchy 2002)

 

 

Check this out. These pics are from a J/105 that raced in the Gulfport to Pensacola race this past June. The race starts in Mississippi Sound just outside Gulfport, MS, and ends at the Sea Buoy at the Pensacola Ship Channel. It is a 100 nm overnight race and usually is a light/med air broad reach for most of the way. This year it was a 100 mile dead upwind slog in 20-35 kts and 10 ft seas. It started out nice at the noon start, winds around 10-12 but just before sunset started picking up in the high teens and dead on the nose. By around 9 pm the winds were holding steady in the 22-25 kts range with some gusts above 30. No storms, beautiful night to sail but honking winds and waves.

 

j105%20keel%20.JPG

 

About half of the 103 boat fleet dropped out at some point and we heard some mayday calls on the radio during the night for the CG to come help some boats in distress. In particular, Mad Max, a J/120 almost lost it's keel and had to be towed into Mobile, AL by the CG al the while being pumped to stay afloat. At the post race party, we heard that the J/105 had some damage to it's hull that occurred right AFTER they crossed the finish line. I'm not sure but I think they had to get CG help too because they were taking on water. I never thought anything about it again until I was cruising around a local boatyard here in Pensacola and saw the same J/105 on the hard. When I went to look closer - HOLY SHIT! I thought at first that they had hit something submerged but then upon closer inspection there doesn't appear to be any scrape marks at the "impact point" that you would expect if they hit something. Ditto for the keel damage area. I don't know the real story, but I think the keel and hull were damaged from the 20 hours of pounding through waves. It looks as if the keel tried to twist itself off and the hull just flexed and finally cracked. I may be wrong but that's surely what it looks like to me. I can't believe they were able to stay afloat with that much open to water intrusion. Just to be clear I do NOT know the absolute truth about the damage. The hearsay at the party (assumedly started by the crew itself) was the hull had "delaminated" right after the finish. That was the word used. The buzz at the post-race party was they heard a loud crack right after the finish line and had to get assistance. Not sure the extent of what help they needed but from the pics it looks like they would have been taking on water at a pretty fast rate. Fortunately the finish was a couple of hours after sunrise so at least it wasn't dark. At first I though they either hit something or ran aground but I don't think either happened. There is no obvious damage to the bottom of the keel or bulb to show a hard aground (plus its all sand here anyway) and there are no scrapes or impact point on the hull to cause the big dent and crack. The scrape you see in the pic looks like its from a block from the support stands as if they moved it once. I would think an impact that bad would have scrapes all down the side of the hull. Picture 4

Anyway, just thought you might be interested since there are a lot of J/105s out your way.

Jeff B

09/11/2002

 

j105%20portside1.JPG

 

This boat looks like it fell over on it's side, to create damage like that.

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The first Mad Max did have keel separation problems but it was an early hull number. Later he had a new J/120. You connect the dots.

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I don't know the history on this boat but here's a pic sent to me after the SD NOOD regatta. It's a j120 that started to take on water after the first race on Saturday.
I just got an email explaining that Hasl Free did not hit anything prior to the water coming into the boat. They experienced a complete failure of the grid system in the floor. It's hull #17 that had been reworked by TPI. It's a damn good thing that they were not doing a TransPac.

post-1849-1205859834_thumb.jpg

post-1849-1205859843_thumb.jpg

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I just got an email explaining that Hasl Free did not hit anything prior to the water coming into the boat. They experienced a complete failure of the grid system in the floor. It's hull #17 that had been reworked by TPI. It's a damn good thing that they were not doing a TransPac.
Geesuss, that is some serious looking trouble! Looks like the boat needs to be scrapped. There were a bunch of J120s that dropped out of the NOOD last weekend, any other troubles to report there?

If I owned a J120 I'd be having it hauled and inspected about now.

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Call Bob Ross at Sail Northwest about it. He'll know whole the story.
Bob will try to sell you a J122.

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Doesn't look so hassle-free does it.

CIMG0097.JPG

What does the builder have to say about this? It's a bit of bad press but fortunately for Jboats the people with money have better things to do than read Sailing Anarchy.

Otherwise if you are going to be buying a boat that falls apart you might as well get a Flying Tiger.

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What does the builder have to say about this? It's a bit of bad press but fortunately for Jboats the people with money have better things to do than read Sailing Anarchy.

Otherwise if you are going to be buying a boat that falls apart you might as well get a Flying Tiger.

Several J120 owners frequent this site and are regular posters. You'd be surprised as to who is watching this thread.

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What does the builder have to say about this? It's a bit of bad press but fortunately for Jboats the people with money have better things to do than read Sailing Anarchy.

Otherwise if you are going to be buying a boat that falls apart you might as well get a Flying Tiger.

looks systemic

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