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Eric

J109 J120 stress cracking in keel hull connection

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....

Most boats built 15 years ago, the builders phone number is probably disconnected. JBoats still answers their phone and talks to their customers even though they may be 2nd or 3 owners.

 

Name another production high performance boat builder who is still around from 20 years ago who would answer his phone?

 

There are several: X-Yachts, Swan, .... there are also non-high performance builders that have been around many many years.

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Black Dog, do you know if there was a recall issued by Jboats to insure that all of the hull 1-25 J120s were made safe? Or, are there some of them now sailing the oceans without having been fixed, where the crews are totally unaware of the risks?

 

When there was a safety recall on my Ford Expedition & Chrysler Concord they sent me a registered letter.

 

Eric - there are different kinds of recalls. The formal legally mandated ones are tracked at http://www.recalls.gov/ And for boating the DB is maintained by the USCG http://www.recalls.gov/uscg.html a quick search of the databased finds no J-120 related recalls for TPI, Pearson or J-boats (TPI has a fuel-tank leakage related recall).

 

Now that doesn't mean that TPI or J-Boats did not send out letters to owners offering to check the problem and fix it if it was a problem, but that is a long long way from being a formal "recall" as you had with your Ford or Chrysler.

 

Now given the problem that clearly seems to exist with hulls 1-25, it may make sense to get the CPSC (Consumer Product Safety Commission) and the USCG involved in this.

 

Your call. You may want to contact an admiralty atty before making it though.

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Express, Olson and Santa Cruz. None are still in business, but it doesn't matter. They built their boats correctly in the first place.

 

Very true- and the boats are still kicking butt! The SC's are still sexy boats that can due damage on the course.

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I think it is stress fatigue. It's not from a grounding. The J120 does not cut through waves very well, they tend to ride up over them and then slam down hard. 10 years of racing in PNW conditions, where wind against tide often occurs, have taken their toll. I also suspect that the design is not as great is it could be. The first 24 J120s all had this issue in spades and were redesigned in the hull-keel area. Hull #5 nearly sunk due to the keel falling off. The J105 and J109s are currently getting retrofitted in this area for the same issue - stress fatigue in the keel hull joint. Maybe the designer needed different engineers?

 

wavehoping.jpg

 

 

So you haul your boat out of the water, and through 12 years of coats of antifouling, you notice some cracks / crazing, which you deem to be "Stress Cracks", you scuff off the top of the antifoul and you take a few photos.

 

You then post these on a worldwide site (hands up who knows who Ian is, mentioned in the original post). Let the asshats (me included) here decide what is wrong with your boat, and voila, you now question the engineers and the designers, of an internationally respected builder.

 

And you live in The USA??? Are you trying to get yourself sued?????

 

Did it occur to you to ;

 

1) actually take all of the antifouling off the affected area, so that you can see what's happening to the gelcoat?

2) hire a qualified surveyor to look at your boat, the piece of equipment that you trust your life to every time you go sailing?

 

Surely this is the way forward, rather than post here.

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So you haul your boat out of the water, and through 12 years of coats of antifouling, you notice some cracks / crazing, which you deem to be "Stress Cracks", you scuff off the top of the antifoul and you take a few photos.

 

You then post these on a worldwide site (hands up who knows who Ian is, mentioned in the original post). Let the asshats (me included) here decide what is wrong with your boat, and voila, you now question the engineers and the designers, of an internationally respected builder.

 

And you live in The USA??? Are you trying to get yourself sued?????

 

Did it occur to you to ;

 

1) actually take all of the antifouling off the affected area, so that you can see what's happening to the gelcoat?

2) hire a qualified surveyor to look at your boat, the piece of equipment that you trust your life to every time you go sailing?

 

Surely this is the way forward, rather than post here.

The boat is on the hard and it has had the anti-fouling off. The gel-coat was severely cracked along the full length of both sides of the keel. Not just one crack but many. The cracking continued around the front, and on the aft end there is a two inch crack that goes clean though from port to starboard. In light of that information, my crew declined to sail on the boat anymore until it is repaired. Do you blame them? Part of the trouble now is that the professionals at the boat yard are not sure what the best thing to do is. The yard is CSR which is arguably the best in the pacific NW. Have you looked at the photos of Hasl Free? Probably not, because if you had read the thread first, you would have already known the answers to those stupid questions of yours.

 

If we don't post about this kind of thing here then what do we post about? More "which bow babe is the cutest" surveys?

 

Here is the boat having 4 layers of e-glass vacuum bagged on where the overly thick gel-coat used to be.

post-1849-1206130508_thumb.jpg

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If we don't post about this kind of thing here then what do we post about? More "which bow babe is the cutest" surveys?

Agreed; this place is sort of lawless but then you're also assured of hearing all opinions & possibilities not just & only the official 120 owners response, which response might not actually be in the best interest of the 120 owners themselves.

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So you haul your boat out of the water, and through 12 years of coats of antifouling, you notice some cracks / crazing, which you deem to be "Stress Cracks", you scuff off the top of the antifoul and you take a few photos.

 

You then post these on a worldwide site (hands up who knows who Ian is, mentioned in the original post). Let the asshats (me included) here decide what is wrong with your boat, and voila, you now question the engineers and the designers, of an internationally respected builder.

 

And you live in The USA??? Are you trying to get yourself sued?????

 

Did it occur to you to ;

 

1) actually take all of the antifouling off the affected area, so that you can see what's happening to the gelcoat?

2) hire a qualified surveyor to look at your boat, the piece of equipment that you trust your life to every time you go sailing?

 

Surely this is the way forward, rather than post here.

Your post is still pissing me off. Please reread my post that you are objecting to. I didn't question the engineers and designers because of what happened to my boat. I question them because the J109s and the J105s are all having to have the keel sump area rebuilt after the fact and because the keels were falling off of the J120s at sea in at least three know cases. Maybe every other J120 owner knew about this stuff but it was because of this thread that those cases have come to my attention.

 

One more thing, there was not 12 years of anti fouling on the boat. I've had it completely remove twice so there is not much of a built of paint.

 

Why don't you Brits just stick to playing cricket and leave the sailing to the sailors. You guys never did win an Americas Cup did you.

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Eric -

 

This is from the peanut gallery and only looking at pics, but I would say this -

 

1. Problem started when washers went to shit and finally gave up the ghost. This caused the tension in the keel bolts to release thereby leading to the cracking. Not saying they were loose but that the tension was released. No tension in bolted structures = bad things happen.... Especially when the keel bolts are doing double duty in both locating and clamping.

 

2. Stringers could be going and only way I can think to check would be spray dye penetrant all over the place and get in there with a blacklight to see if there is any cracking/crazing happening inside. X-ray would work to but would cost some bucks - dye is cheap and easy.

 

3. Fuck it - re-bog it all anyway just in case as its better to be prudent.

 

4. New washers and re-torque keel bolts.

 

5. Sail for a few months - pull boat and inspect. Repeat as necessary until comfort level returns.

 

6. Make sure everyone on board knows abandon ship procedures....

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Why don't you Brits just stick to playing cricket and leave the sailing to the sailors. You guys never did win an Americas Cup did you.

 

LOL....

 

That's one of the funniest things I've read in a long long time......

 

Oh, we could get into a pissing contest about Americas Cups (when was the last time US won???) or Olympic gold medals, or global / Volvo / single handed, but really what's the point? US Sailing is in the wilderness.

 

See a surveyor about your boat! Stop being a cheapskate, and pay a professional for their views, don't just rely on what people tell you on SA for free.

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See a surveyor about your boat! Stop being a cheapskate, and pay a professional for their views, don't just rely on what people tell you on SA for free.

Once again ass-wipe you failed to read what has already been written here. Five posts back I replied to you "part of the trouble now is that the professionals at the boat yard are not sure what the best thing to do is. The yard is CSR which is arguably the best in the pacific NW." Now you're telling me to hire a professional. What, is English your second language?

 

Here once again is my boat currently in the yard:

post-1849-1206137064_thumb.jpg

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Once again ass-wipe you failed to read what has already been written here. Five posts back I replied to you "part of the trouble now is that the professionals at the boat yard are not sure what the best thing to do is. The yard is CSR which is arguably the best in the pacific NW." Now you're telling me to hire a professional. What, is English your second language?

 

Here once again is my boat currently in the yard:

Eric sorry to hear about the trouble.

 

 

If I'm not mistaken, there is a schedule/procedure for checking and maintaining the proper torque on the keelbolts..... did you ever check the torque, and then re-torque to spec?

 

Good luck.

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Eric sorry to hear about the trouble.

If I'm not mistaken, there is a schedule/procedure for checking and maintaining the proper torque on the keelbolts..... did you ever check the torque, and then re-torque to spec?

 

Good luck.

This trouble is totally unrelated to the keel bolts. The keel bolts on the J105 J109 and J120 just keep the lead part of the keel tight to the fiberglass keel stub. In all these cases, that joint is just fine. The trouble is with the design and layup of the fiberglass keel stub/sump. Once again that has all been covered many time in this thread.

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Once again ass-wipe you failed to read what has already been written here. Five posts back I replied to you "part of the trouble now is that the professionals at the boat yard are not sure what the best thing to do is. The yard is CSR which is arguably the best in the pacific NW." Now you're telling me to hire a professional. What, is English your second language?

 

Here once again is my boat currently in the yard:

 

Well I found your boat on Google earth (with special high res feature added), down there at CSR, and it's my professional opinion that she's fine, mate, and you and your crew can go sailing again!!! Oh, by the way, tell Ian I love the new car, and tell Hayley that brown really is not her colour...

 

Seriously - asking the yard foreman and the crane driver, and maybe even Larry the Laminator is not the same as asking a surveyor.

 

Do you not have qualified surveyors in PNW???

 

Dude, I mean you now harm (despite your cultural and and nationalistic insults) but I think that asking people here is not high on the list of things you should be doing here. Asking an independant qualified professional should be.

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This trouble is totally unrelated to the keel bolts. The keel bolts on the J105 J109 and J120 just keep the lead part of the keel tight to the fiberglass keel stub. In all these cases, that joint is just fine. The trouble is with the design and layup of the fiberglass keel stub/sump. Once again that has all been covered many time in this thread.

So, the answer to the question is "no"?

 

 

Gotta tell you, a 10 plus year old boat that hasn't re-torqued its keelbolts is asking for trouble.

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Well I found your boat on Google earth (with special high res feature added), down there at CSR, and it's my professional opinion that she's fine, mate, and you and your crew can go sailing again!!! Oh, by the way, tell Ian I love the new car, and tell Hayley that brown really is not her colour...

 

Seriously - asking the yard foreman and the crane driver, and maybe even Larry the Laminator is not the same as asking a surveyor.

 

Do you not have qualified surveyors in PNW???

 

Dude, I mean you now harm (despite your cultural and and nationalistic insults) but I think that asking people here is not high on the list of things you should be doing here. Asking an independant qualified professional should be.

 

Yes there are qualified marine surveyors in the PNW, but one would have to take one's boat to a full service boatyard where they perchance have one rattling around somewhere. Mayhap that is what Eric has done.

 

What's with the dogpile? Kick folks when their down much? Maybe he just wants to know if other J-120 owners/sailors have seen this problem before, or if it's an isolated incedent.

 

And for your information Mr. Smartypants, the laminators name is Lucy. Sexist pig!

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Well I found your boat on Google earth (with special high res feature added), down there at CSR, and it's my professional opinion that she's fine, mate, and you and your crew can go sailing again!!! Oh, by the way, tell Ian I love the new car, and tell Hayley that brown really is not her colour...

 

Seriously - asking the yard foreman and the crane driver, and maybe even Larry the Laminator is not the same as asking a surveyor.

 

Do you not have qualified surveyors in PNW???

 

Dude, I mean you now harm (despite your cultural and and nationalistic insults) but I think that asking people here is not high on the list of things you should be doing here. Asking an independant qualified professional should be.

Trust me, we are not relying on any recommendations posted here, but we do listen. We are using the best marine engineer we could get to help figure out what to do with the structural grid. A surveyor doesn't know how to design anything. They only tap around looking for voids. The boat builder has no further interest or input into this matter.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

It was because of this thread that we found out about Hasl Free also a J120 that showed the same kind of cracking in the gel coat only two years ago and the boat builder told them not to worry about it. The boat nearly sunk off of San Diego last weekend. I understand that the surveyor of Hasl Free has said that the problem was not due to keel bolts but it was due to stress fatigue.

 

CIMG0097.JPG

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Well I found your boat on Google earth (with special high res feature added), down there at CSR, and it's my professional opinion that she's fine, mate, and you and your crew can go sailing again!!! Oh, by the way, tell Ian I love the new car, and tell Hayley that brown really is not her colour...

 

Seriously - asking the yard foreman and the crane driver, and maybe even Larry the Laminator is not the same as asking a surveyor.

 

Do you not have qualified surveyors in PNW???

 

Dude, I mean you now harm (despite your cultural and and nationalistic insults) but I think that asking people here is not high on the list of things you should be doing here. Asking an independant qualified professional should be.

Do you know what it takes to become a 'qualified boat surveyor'? Probably not. Turns out that "Larry the Laminator" probably understands more about strength of layup than most surveyors. Unless you know about CSR (and I doubt you do), you are progressively demonstrating your greater and greater ignorance.

 

And BTW, on tightening the keel bolts - your explanation of how the loss of tension would cause a problem doesn't fit the symptoms. The boat has a keel stub. The bolts cinch the lead part of the keel to the keel stub. If loss of tension were the problem, you'd expect the cracks to be appearing at the joint between the keel stub and the lead part of the keel because that's the joint that would be moving.

 

HOWEVER - all the photos - and all the eyewitness testimony, tells you this is NOT the case. the cracks are 6" further up at the base of the integrally laminated keel stub. So unless you have a magical physics explanation about how the bottom of the keel stub kept in column with an oscillating keel and transmitted that torque further up into the glass despite having no "structure in tension" integrity - then I think you might wanna rethink your comments about keel torque.

 

 

 

Eric - take a chill pill. These guys clearly dunno what they are yacking about. I realize the issue is the OO - and how to get the boat ready for it, but you might consider not duing the OO and following StripClubJunkie's solution. Otherwise he's also right that you could get an Xray or sonogram analysis of all the cracks and voids in the area where the grid attaches to the hull.

 

those of us who know you and your boat realize that you aren't a cheapskate and you've always sailed hard but safe.

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So, the answer to the question is "no"?

Gotta tell you, a 10 plus year old boat that hasn't re-torqued its keelbolts is asking for trouble.

 

I'm no expert here, but If the keel bolts were loose, wouldn't you expect to see cracks at the keel/hull join?

 

I ask because it has been made clear previously that the cracks are not at said keel/hull join.

 

Someone who doesn't replace the waterpump impeller periodically is asking for trouble too, but I seriously doubt

the keel sump fracturing would be a symptom of that particular oversight.

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And BTW, on tightening the keel bolts - your explanation of how the loss of tension would cause a problem doesn't fit the symptoms. The boat has a keel stub. The bolts cinch the lead part of the keel to the keel stub. If loss of tension were the problem, you'd expect the cracks to be appearing at the joint between the keel stub and the lead part of the keel because that's the joint that would be moving.

 

HOWEVER - all the photos - and all the eyewitness testimony, tells you this is NOT the case. the cracks are 6" further up at the base of the integrally laminated keel stub. So unless you have a magical physics explanation about how the bottom of the keel stub kept in column with an oscillating keel and transmitted that torque further up into the glass despite having no "structure in tension" integrity - then I think you might wanna rethink your comments about keel torque.

I'm no keel expert, but do have some engineering knowledge....its very possible that the keelbolt torque is required for the stump/grid integrity as well as the stump/keel integrity....

 

 

we are all guessing, but keelbolt stretch is a well known cause of failure, and if the bolts were never checked in 10 plus years of hard racing, I'd start looking there first.

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I've been on a 120 but not up her skirts - but here is my logic - lets say you have a row of bolts and for grins say a couple in the middle lose tension (washer crap). Keel is still located, but there will be a little extra movement at the TOP end (where the holes are which are not precision drilled to locate BTW) and that little bit of movement at the top starts to load the upper end of the structure - in your case the stub thingy. By the same token, if there is good filler/bog whatever at the lead stub joint, you may NOT see the cracks there but further up where the stub is now taking some serious flexing load whereas it's normal life is spent being a spacer of sorts and not designed for lateral loads so the cracks appear where the stub now sees that load - up near the hull. Terminal - I have no clue, fixable same, but in my race car world - I'd be all over the area with dye and a blacklight or if funds were no object - x-ray'd and in this case by someone who has done x-rays on a FRP boat hull....

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I've been on a 120 but not up her skirts - but here is my logic - lets say you have a row of bolts and for grins say a couple in the middle lose tension (washer crap). Keel is still located, but there will be a little extra movement at the TOP end (where the holes are which are not precision drilled to locate BTW) and that little bit of movement at the top starts to load the upper end of the structure - in your case the stub thingy. By the same token, if there is good filler/bog whatever at the lead stub joint, you may NOT see the cracks there but further up where the stub is now taking some serious flexing load whereas it's normal life is spent being a spacer of sorts and not designed for lateral loads so the cracks appear where the stub now sees that load - up near the hull. Terminal - I have no clue, fixable same, but in my race car world - I'd be all over the area with dye and a blacklight or if funds were no object - x-ray'd and in this case by someone who has done x-rays on a FRP boat hull....

If you go back and look at Eric's Post #17 http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php...t&p=1569769 you can sorta see that the keelbolts just cinch up the keel to the bottom of the keel stub. They aren't tied into any of the grid integrity members themselves. I don't see how any pendulum affect that slighlty looser bolts might cause, wouldn't present at the loser joint, but instead would migrate up to what ostensibly is a stronger structure (the root of the keel stub). You might see them in both places, but not in the stronger of the two. Remember that the sheer strength of gelcoat in the keel/Hull joint just isn't that strong.

 

I agree with your idea of dye and blacklight. You might want to elaborate on it though since as good as CSR is, I'm not sure that's the sort of thing they do since they are a recreational yard, not a commercial yard.

 

BTW Eric that's a thought - bring in a surveyor from the Foss yard or similar from just down the way

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Trust me, we are not relying on any recommendations posted here, but we do listen. We are using the best marine engineer we could get to help figure out what to do with the structural grid. A surveyor doesn't know how to design anything. They only tap around looking for voids. The boat builder has no further interest or input into this matter.

 

I think most surveyors would do a detailed analysis on this, start by working out if this is simply superficial cracking of gelcoat, caused by cyclic loading, where the gelcoat has been applied too thickly oon the inside of the mould, and is less forgiving than the grp structure around it, or if these cracks have propigated through the layup. If the latter then this area will be sopping wet, and even after a couple of days on the hard there will still be water seeping out.

 

A fix MAY be to put additional floors in, that extend down to the bottom of the sump, and out to at least two feet from the centreline on the hull. It would be relatively simple to make these from foam, bond them in and then overlaminate, like a top hat section floor (except straight sided), so significant U/D fibres across the face, and probably two layers of a decent weight woven cloth (one at 0 / 90, and the other at 45 / -45) extending down both sides of the floor, with 2 and then 3 inch overlap between the floors and the sides of the sump, and also between the floors and the base of the sump.

 

Any pour, or flowcoat will have to be ground out before this happens - this will have to be a glass to glass bond (probably means taking the lead keel off, and then redrilling the bolt holes.

 

Number and thickness of floors? Well that depends on space between keelbolts - you still need to get to them... so if you can fit inch thick floors in between the bolts, then you probably need 4 floors, but if you can get them up to 2 inch thick, then three, or possibly even two floors would suffice - more / thinner is probably better because two big floors will have big hard points, where as 4 will be more but not so hard hard points....

 

Ends of the floors need to be chamfered off, so that it blends into structure, rather than a hard point.

 

Limberholes, between the now segrigated areas of your keel sump?? It's a detail but it depends on width, and depth of sump.

 

I'm not a surveyor, but I am a Naval Architect, and I have only seen a few photos of what has happened, and what the problem MIGHT be.

 

I still think that getting a pro surveyor or naval arch to look at it, survey, and solve is your best way forward.

 

BTW - I was not the one talking about torque of bolts.

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Yes there are qualified marine surveyors in the PNW, but one would have to take one's boat to a full service boatyard where they perchance have one rattling around somewhere. Mayhap that is what Eric has done.

 

What's with the dogpile? Kick folks when their down much? Maybe he just wants to know if other J-120 owners/sailors have seen this problem before, or if it's an isolated incident.

 

And for your information Mr. Smartypants, the laminators name is Lucy. Sexist pig!

I do the laminations around here!

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Shooting from the hip here a little bit (at least I'm not the only one), but is it possible that the problem is in the radius and thickness of the the keel stub to hull area? If the floors/gird are pretty rigid and well bonded to the hull/skin, but the keel stub itself is thin or the joint is not well radiused, what fails first? Does the keel movement pop the skin off the grid (as apparently happened in some boats?), or does the vertical to horizontal transition point crack? I think that would certainly be a possibility.

 

I think that a cantilevered load on a non-uniform beam perpendicular to a curved surface could have THREE basic failure modes:

 

The beam could fail anywhere along it's length (but most likely at the beam to cylinder surface). Epoxy a balsa beam to a beer bottle, the beam wil break with wood still attached to the bottle.

 

It could pull the surface off the cylinder. Epoxy an aluminum beam to a cardoard tube, the beam will pull out a chunk of cardboard.

 

It could pull the surface of the cyinder off the internal structure. Epoxy the aluminum beam again to the cardboard tube, but this time glue a flimsy balsa grid inside the tube, and hold it by the grid. I'm betting the cardboard comes off in one piece.

 

I think you need core samples (or accurate lamination schedules) and some stress calculations to really pin this down.

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That keel stub joint is the fulcrum point - not much movement actually - the lever effect puts the force higher up - i.e. in the stub to hull area. Cracks mean movement - either from the keel transmitting the movement to the keel pan and hull or the hull itself is flexing in that area. I think we all get that and I'm stating the obvious but it is the cause of the movement that is what we need to chase down. Also note - we are talking thousandths of an inch before a bolt "looses" tension. It's the tension from the torquing that really holds things (bolt stretching) not just the "force" of the bolt/washer interface. That's why torquing is absolutely critical on race cars and keel bolts. What looks tight may be tight but not actually tight. Do that on a con rod bolt in an engine and goodbye engine. Same with keels - and I suspect a lot of the pan issues could ultimately be traced to a combo of bad layup and tight but not properly tensioned keelbolts that push the loads to places the designer did not want or consider. Given time and some FRP and washer breakdown and bingo - the lateral loads rip the damn pans off the hull.

 

I'd make some calls to structural engineering firms to have them specify what dye is safe to use on FRP or for a consult. Basically the dye will light up where there are cracks. Clean the shit out and go to town with glass and resin where you find the cracks or grind back a bit and repeat until no more crack.... I'm not sure on the cleaning part which is why I would defer to an engineer on this - on metal we just clean it with whatever and throw away the bad parts which is not actually possible in this case and I'd hate to have something that is not compatible with the glassing and resin....

 

Fack what a pain - and seriously - do not underestimate improperly tensioned bolts as NOT being a part of the problem in all these boats. I suspect you would find most not properly tensioned and movement with shit this heavy is not good and will push the failure points around to the weakest areas - often a ways away from the root cause of the problem. If your yard does not use a torque wrench or can't tell you the last time it was calibrated if they do, you do not have properly tensioned bolts....

 

That one pic showed what loose bolt will do - a little movement pushed that square backing plate/washer corner into the glass initiating a crack. That is a loose bolt at work - either from bad torquing or loss of tension as the structure underneath breaks/compresses down over time. Again we are talking thousandths of a inch here to loose proper tension on a bolt....

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Fack what a pain - and seriously - do not underestimate improperly tensioned bolts as NOT being a part of the problem in all these boats. I suspect you would find most not properly tensioned and movement with shit this heavy is not good and will push the failure points around to the weakest areas - often a ways away from the root cause of the problem. If your yard does not use a torque wrench or can't tell you the last time it was calibrated if they do, you do not have properly tensioned bolts....That one pic showed what loose bolt will do - a little movement pushed that square backing plate/washer corner into the glass initiating a crack. That is a loose bolt at work - either from bad torquing or loss of tension as the structure underneath breaks/compresses down over time. Again we are talking thousandths of a inch here to loose proper tension on a bolt....
Do you realize that the keel-bolt nuts are actually 12" lower than the keel-hull joint. They are down in the bottom of the sump. In the case of Hasl Free the surveyor ruled out the tension of the keel-bolt nuts as a cause of the failure.

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Well I found your boat on Google earth (with special high res feature added), down there at CSR, and it's my professional opinion that she's fine, mate, and you and your crew can go sailing again!!! Oh, by the way, tell Ian I love the new car, and tell Hayley that brown really is not her colour...

 

Seriously - asking the yard foreman and the crane driver, and maybe even Larry the Laminator is not the same as asking a surveyor.

 

Do you not have qualified surveyors in PNW???

 

Dude, I mean you now harm (despite your cultural and and nationalistic insults) but I think that asking people here is not high on the list of things you should be doing here. Asking an independant qualified professional should be.

Mr. Thiepval, err....Dude, I think he is just teasing you Sir.

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I'm no expert here, but If the keel bolts were loose, wouldn't you expect to see cracks at the keel/hull join?

Yes, but only if the keel bolts were located at the keel/hull joint. On the 120 they are not. A fglass stump comes down off the hull and the keel bolts are down inside that stump: the keel bolts are not inside the hull itself. (although they are accessed from there.

 

I ask because it has been made clear previously that the cracks are not at said keel/hull join.

Uhhh... I think they are. Look again....I think that some are confused; the boat in the picture with the huge open crack that has water puring out of it is Hasl Free, not Eric's boat.

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Just a flyer, but has there been any blistering issues on the boat, any other indicators elsewhere where work had to be performed over her lifetime?

 

 

 

Anything that could have telegraphed down into the keel sump.

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Thiepval,

 

I often used SA as a sounding board for problems / issues I have on my boat. This is done to see if there are other opinions / experience out there that may differ from what I'm being told be the professionals that I have hired to solve the problem. This would appear to be what Eric is doing.

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Eric,

 

What's the source of the cracking in the bilge you mentioned earlier? If that's an indication of movement where the stub meets the ballast, then I could see that stressing the keel-hull joint (where the stub meets the hull).

 

post-1849-1204230404_thumb.jpg

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I'm no keel expert, but do have some engineering knowledge....its very possible that the keelbolt torque is required for the stump/grid integrity as well as the stump/keel integrity....

we are all guessing, but keelbolt stretch is a well known cause of failure, and if the bolts were never checked in 10 plus years of hard racing, I'd start looking there first.

Shouldn't you be busy in the FT forum bagging on their recent mast step failures?

 

As has been said many times in this thread, the keel/sump joint is not the issue. The sump itself is. While the ferrous keel bolt washers are a concern, you would expect to see a pronounced 'smile' at the keel/sump joint if the bolts were loose. That is not the case here.

 

I find it amusing that you'll waste hours throwing darts at the FT10 guys, and then defend Jboats, the A30, and others who experience similar build/delivery/etc.. issues. Issues that the FT10 guys have shown far more transparency with. Your hypocrisy is impressive.

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When the original problem with hull flex around the keel was dicovered, TPI sent out glass crews to where ever the boats were located & addes laminate & stringers. I was involved with the Indigo/Hasl Free repair as I was doing all the work for sail Cal at the time. That boat was extensively raced & had a very successful record under her 2nd owners.

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Eric,

Hang in there. You're doing a good job not losing it too badly with these keel bolt obsessed folks. It's the stub. Blaming it on the keel bolts almost seems like a weird, contorted way of blaming the whole thing on you and your negligence. This structural failure is NOT YOUR FAULT!!! I wouldn't rule out the existence of J's lawyers and influence on this forum! It only makes sense that they would be spinning and floating a few theories. Try and keep this in mind as you listen to some pretty good brains on this forum. I'll stop by on Wednesday and take a look. Good luck.

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Do you realize that the keel-bolt nuts are actually 12" lower than the keel-hull joint. They are down in the bottom of the sump. In the case of Hasl Free the surveyor ruled out the tension of the keel-bolt nuts as a cause of the failure.

BB raised this a few posts back. I've seen the old washers, not just here (I was in the yard last Tuesday--want the pics?): they've deteriorated but they're not gone. And I don't understand how a structural failure due to keel bolt tension could cause flexing a full foot above the joint without it showing at the joint as well? IMHO, and based on a pre-law, undergrad, fundamental, rudimentary understanding of Engineering, the fractures should have occurred at the joint, not 12" above it? Maybe both joints, but not only the one 12” higher. Please explain this to me if I have it wrong?

 

So, to you poor Non-Banditos (I won’t ask the Banditos as they’ve already chimed in): do you want to sail offshore on this boat? Do you want your son to sail with you offshore on this boat? Do you now question the structural integrity of all 120s? What is the airspeed velocity of a swallow?

 

Tell Eric to just cover up the cosmetic issues without researching the structural issue. And then go offshore on the boat. Just don't expect me to sit next to you on the rail.

 

And don't expect Eric to be driving. We'll be sitting with Ms. Eric in Chateau Bandito, sipping on a nice Chianti. In the mean time, you can take his insurance claim to Davy Jones as T22 seems to endorse. Maybe he'll drive!

 

Folks: this isn't about slamming J-Boats. It's about transparency. It’s about safety. I just want to come home on the same boat I left on.

 

Hell, I just want to come home.

 

-DWO

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Yes, but only if the keel bolts were located at the keel/hull joint. On the 120 they are not. A fglass stump comes down off the hull and the keel bolts are down inside that stump: the keel bolts are not inside the hull itself. (although they are accessed from there.

Uhhh... I think they are. Look again....I think that some are confused; the boat in the picture with the huge open crack that has water puring out of it is Hasl Free, not Eric's boat.

 

I know the bolts are at the bottom of the sump, that's my point. If the bolts were part of the problem I would expect to see the seam where they join. I can't in the case of either boat, though I have not looked very closely. I would expect in the case of loose bolts for the fairing compound and/or gelcoat to be gone and a very visible line between glass and lead.

 

If you mean the pic below, that is a cavern, not a crack, but the seam where the lead meets the fiberglass is further south, I believe. I think it's right about where the water stream falls away from the boat

 

 

post-385-1206161607_thumb.jpg

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Folks: this isn't about slamming J-Boats. It's about transparency. It’s about safety. I just want to come home on the same boat I left on.

 

Hell, I just want to come home.

 

-DWO

 

 

OK. I'm just here to offer some help.

 

1. If you do not have a J-120 and you don't sail on one and don't know anybody who does; You can quit messing around and wasting time on this thread.

 

2. If you do know somebody who has a J-120; you might serve yourself and that person by asking if the keel has been inspected and if the boat is known to be properly built or repaired.

 

3. If you do own a J-120; You ought to make certain the keel is either built correctly or that it has been properly repaired.

 

That ought to cover everybody.

 

The end

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OK. I'm just here to offer some help.

 

1. If you do not have a J-120 and you don't sail on one and don't know anybody who does; You can quit messing around and wasting time on this thread.

 

2. If you do know somebody who has a J-120; you might serve yourself and that person by asking if the keel has been inspected and if the boat is known to be properly built or repaired.

 

3. If you do own a J-120; You ought to make certain the keel is either built correctly or that it has been properly repaired.

 

That ought to cover everybody.

 

The end

Thanks, Gouv, for your help:

 

1. I don't. I do and have sailed on more than one J-120. I crew on and have sailed against hull #50. I've sailed against hull #17 and hull #50 on two other 120s. I visited hull #50 in the yard this week. Call me out, Asshat!

 

And that's not the correct use of a semicolon!!! :blink:

 

2. See #1 above. Ask him yourself. He's the one who started this thread. As for the three others, one had his keel try to spontaneously disassemble last weekend (golly, that'd be #17, wouldn't it?) and the other two boats were sold for reasons unrelated to the keels (kids and bow thrusters, respectively, if I recall correctly)

 

And that's STILL not the correct use of a semicolon!!! :blink:

 

3. Still don't. Not worried. See #1 & #2 above.

 

I give up on the correct use of a semicolon!!! :blink:

 

Cheers,

-DWO

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I suspect that Eric will do the right thing. The broader question is what will other J120 owners do.

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My two cents:

 

It's not a keel bolt issue. It is quite likely a structural issue.

 

Your best bet is not to solely use a surveyor for this. They just don't have the skillset to properly evaluate the problem. What you need is a structural inspection and failure analysis done by a composites engineer. There are a couple tools they can use - ultrasound and liquid dye penetrant. FYI, there is a great article about dye penetrant use in boats in the latest Professional Boatbuilder (and it's accessible online). www.proboat.com

 

Go to Pseconline.org and look for asm international, Wsh soc of professional engineers, and do a separate search for amer society of composites

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Thiepval,

 

I often used SA as a sounding board for problems / issues I have on my boat. This is done to see if there are other opinions / experience out there that may differ from what I'm being told be the professionals that I have hired to solve the problem. This would appear to be what Eric is doing.

 

J

 

The thing to do here is find the best surveyor that you can, get him (or her) to survey and come up with a solution, and then get them to oversee the fix.

 

A qualified surveyor should be well enough qualified to be insured for his work (I think it's public indemnity insurance here, I don't know what you call it there). This should keep his insurance company sweet.

 

Look - In the past I worked for a Classification Society in London - no prizes for guessing - and the thing that surveyors always said about anything that they were checking was "what's the worst case scenario" i.e. what if something breaks, or fails, or is unstable, and the vessel sinks, or falls over, and kills someone. There is a public inquiry, and the surveyor is up there giving evidence..... what are you going to say????

 

 

So - if Eric listens to the "wisdom" here, paints over the cracks, and goes sailing - keel falls off, two crew members drown, public enquiry. Eric stands in front of the Judge, and the judge says "You found cracks in the keel last time the boat was surveyed - what did you do about this"

 

"Uuuh - I posted some pics on a sailing forum, and some guys (who I've never met, and don't know their qualifications) decided it looked ok, and just redo the gelcoat, and it looked ok when we finnished...."

 

or

 

"I had professional qualified surveyor from such and such organisation look at it, and they tested and drilled and here is the report and he said it was fine......"

 

Route A - you get done for what we call manslaughter (you probably call it murder 5 or 15 or whatever). Route B you walk out of court, minus two friends, but a free man - go home to your wife, and think about taking up golf.

 

Thankfully it very rarely comes down to this. But please - got a serious problem with your boat??? Hire a pro, don't just ask SA for advice....

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Shouldn't you be busy in the FT forum bagging on their recent mast step failures?

 

As has been said many times in this thread, the keel/sump joint is not the issue. The sump itself is. While the ferrous keel bolt washers are a concern, you would expect to see a pronounced 'smile' at the keel/sump joint if the bolts were loose. That is not the case here.

 

I find it amusing that you'll waste hours throwing darts at the FT10 guys, and then defend Jboats, the A30, and others who experience similar build/delivery/etc.. issues. Issues that the FT10 guys have shown far more transparency with. Your hypocrisy is impressive.

shifey, i feel like we are now best friends..

 

comparing the FT to any quality boat is a joke....that thing fell apart from day one...and listening to the owners brag that their boat costs less than all others just seemed wierd......"my transom fell off on the first sail, but i love the boat because it is cheap" :lol: :lol: :lol:

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J

 

The thing to do here is find the best surveyor that you can, get him (or her) to survey and come up with a solution, and then get them to oversee the fix.

 

A qualified surveyor should be well enough qualified to be insured for his work (I think it's public indemnity insurance here, I don't know what you call it there). This should keep his insurance company sweet.

 

Look - In the past I worked for a Classification Society in London - no prizes for guessing - and the thing that surveyors always said about anything that they were checking was "what's the worst case scenario" i.e. what if something breaks, or fails, or is unstable, and the vessel sinks, or falls over, and kills someone. There is a public inquiry, and the surveyor is up there giving evidence..... what are you going to say????

So - if Eric listens to the "wisdom" here, paints over the cracks, and goes sailing - keel falls off, two crew members drown, public enquiry. Eric stands in front of the Judge, and the judge says "You found cracks in the keel last time the boat was surveyed - what did you do about this"

 

"Uuuh - I posted some pics on a sailing forum, and some guys (who I've never met, and don't know their qualifications) decided it looked ok, and just redo the gelcoat, and it looked ok when we finnished...."

 

or

 

"I had professional qualified surveyor from such and such organisation look at it, and they tested and drilled and here is the report and he said it was fine......"

 

Route A - you get done for what we call manslaughter (you probably call it murder 5 or 15 or whatever). Route B you walk out of court, minus two friends, but a free man - go home to your wife, and think about taking up golf.

 

Thankfully it very rarely comes down to this. But please - got a serious problem with your boat??? Hire a pro, don't just ask SA for advice....

 

I'm pretty sure he is hiring the right people, but you are right about following advice on these threads. There are alot of knowledgeable people on this site......but they are probably outnumbered 10 to 1 by asshats that don't know what the fuck they are talking about. (that might be a conservative figure)

 

The poster that compared keel bolt torque to engine con rod torque comes to mind.

 

So what has he accomplished by posting his problems on this site?

 

1. He has raised awareness by some J120 owners of potential SERIOUS problems with their boats. A good thing.

 

2. He has branded his boat (as well as other J 120's) as "the boat that had the keel sump failure" on the most visited international sailing site in the world. A bad thing for J 120 owners.

 

3. Probably lowered resale value for J 120 owners, even if they were properly fixed. (As Hasl Free supposedly was). A bad thing for J 120 owners.

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I suspect that Eric will do the right thing. The broader question is what will other J120 owners do.
Nothing, because there is nothing wrong with the vast majority of them.

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Nothing, because there is nothing wrong with the vast majority of them.
You will never have a colonoscopy because the vast majority of people don't have colon cancer?

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You will never have a colonoscopy because the vast majority of people don't have colon cancer?
Dude, I check my boat all the time (SOP?) and it is fine, just like the vast majority of all J120s. There is literally nothing to do. If you, or someone you know, has a J120 that has a problem, then you, or they, should do something about it. I'm not sure what a colonoscopy has to do with it.

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how many boat builders use the sump arrangement that j-boats uses, seems bolted directly to the hull would be stronger.

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how many boat builders use the sump arrangement that j-boats uses, seems bolted directly to the hull would be stronger.

I think you would find a lot of boats have this arrangement.

 

30 years ago, I had this happen on an IOR 1/2 tonner. The ballast was poured into a fiberglass keel and was internal ballast. The lead was about 9 inches from the top of the 'keel" forming a sump. The whole assembly was glassed onto the bottom of the boat. This developed a crack in the leading edge of the "sump". During one race it really opened up and I thought we were going to lose the boat. Too many people worked on it and tried bandaid fixes. Finally a reputable company chased all the cracks and rebuilt the sump. No more problems. The boat builder was out of business, but the dealer stood behind it at his expense. I appreciated that.

 

I have a J35 now and it has a sump arrangement similar to what the 120 people are reporting. Their was a report a couple of years ago that they too had a problem, but I could not confirm that.

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J

 

The thing to do here is find the best surveyor that you can, get him (or her) to survey and come up with a solution, and then get them to oversee the fix.

 

A qualified surveyor should be well enough qualified to be insured for his work (I think it's public indemnity insurance here, I don't know what you call it there). This should keep his insurance company sweet.

 

Look - In the past I worked for a Classification Society in London - no prizes for guessing - and the thing that surveyors always said about anything that

 

Thiepval - iOverall your advice is sound, but (knock on wood) if you ever face this problme in the states recognize that in the USA there is no single bonding or certification agency for surveyors. Some surveyors are no more qualified than the "home inspectors" and "home appraisers" that have been part of the "subprime mess" that has been in the news. The gotcha is that the surveyors that are backed by meaningful insurance tend to be ships surveyors and most of them don't know that much about smaller boats (read fiberglass/composite). The exception are those who work with the commercial fishing fleet and fortunately Seattle has a fair share of these.

 

That said - I believe Eric mentioned he has a professional engineer on the job and I'll take one of those guys and their bonded certification over a surveyor anytime.

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I think you would find a lot of boats have this arrangement.

 

I have a J35 now and it has a sump arrangement similar to what the 120 people are reporting. Their was a report a couple of years ago that they too had a problem, but I could not confirm that.

 

OK, I have a J35, there are 3-4 small bulkheads built into the sump, and I'll check back with the previous owners since 1990 (they are still around our club) and find out if any keel work was required on our boat (hull 48)

 

There is a story she did have some work done due to a hard grounding a long time ago, but the last time she was out of the water there was not even a hint of any cracking.

 

Therefor, if the boat was retro-fitted, I could imagine where there was possibly a further issue with laminate, air pockects, something that eventually led to what has happened. Seeing the picture of the 120 leaping off of the backside of that wave (and many others I would guess) would eventually have an effect no matter how well built.

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Thiepval - iOverall your advice is sound, but (knock on wood) if you ever face this problme in the states recognize that in the USA there is no single bonding or certification agency for surveyors. Some surveyors are no more qualified than the "home inspectors" and "home appraisers" that have been part of the "subprime mess" that has been in the news. The gotcha is that the surveyors that are backed by meaningful insurance tend to be ships surveyors and most of them don't know that much about smaller boats (read fiberglass/composite). The exception are those who work with the commercial fishing fleet and fortunately Seattle has a fair share of these.

 

That said - I believe Eric mentioned he has a professional engineer on the job and I'll take one of those guys and their bonded certification over a surveyor anytime.

 

Humm - so what happened to the AMERICAN BUREAU OF SHIPPING??? This boat would have been structured with IMS in mind originally, so will have been built to comply with ABS Yacht rules.

 

I'm sure the other class societies, Lloyds Register, DNV, BV, and Germanisher Lloyd will also have reps / offices in the US.

 

All (or at least some) of these societies should have small boat / yacht specialists in your area.

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OK, I have a J35, there are 3-4 small bulkheads built into the sump, and I'll check back with the previous owners since 1990 (they are still around our club) and find out if any keel work was required on our boat (hull 48)

 

There is a story she did have some work done due to a hard grounding a long time ago, but the last time she was out of the water there was not even a hint of any cracking.

 

Therefor, if the boat was retro-fitted, I could imagine where there was possibly a further issue with laminate, air pockects, something that eventually led to what has happened. Seeing the picture of the 120 leaping off of the backside of that wave (and many others I would guess) would eventually have an effect no matter how well built.

There was an article in a sailing mag(I want to say Sailing World) that had an article on good buys in performance boats and featured the J35. In the article was a one line sentance that said that the boats needed keel sump stiffning. That raised a stir in the J35 website and one guy(may have been "Mr. Bills Wild Ride") had pictures of stiffning that he was doing to the sump. I will go back and look.

 

I had the boat out of the water in October and there was not a hint of any cracking or movement. I have #117 since 1999.

 

The 120 pictures are very scary and bring back memories of my experiance 30 years ago.

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Humm - so what happened to the AMERICAN BUREAU OF SHIPPING??? This boat would have been structured with IMS in mind originally, so will have been built to comply with ABS Yacht rules.

 

I'm sure the other class societies, Lloyds Register, DNV, BV, and Germanisher Lloyd will also have reps / offices in the US.

 

All (or at least some) of these societies should have small boat / yacht specialists in your area.

 

ABS in Seattle is primarily focussed on Shipping vessels. There are some surveyors that understand smaller yachts, and you can get a reference, but just an average surveyor in the USA is largely unregulated. That's not to say they are all bozos, its just that most surveyors don't know more than any decent yard worker (many are yard workers who don't wanna breathe the toxins anymore).

 

that said, Seattle isn't short of resources - Bob Perry is local and a significant part of the Bering Sea fishing fleet is local so there are folks who understand FG structures as well.

 

When I had a machinery claim on the 50'er I was living aboard, I went through 3 surveryors before I found one that was ABS and understood "small" boats.

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There was an article in a sailing mag(I want to say Sailing World) that had an article on good buys in performance boats and featured the J35. In the article was a one line sentence that said that the boats needed keel sump stiffening. That raised a stir in the J35 website and one guy(may have been "Mr. Bills Wild Ride") had pictures of stiffening that he was doing to the sump. I will go back and look.

I had the boat out of the water in October and there was not a hint of any cracking or movement. I have #117 since 1999.

 

The 120 pictures are very scary and bring back memories of my experience 30 years ago.

Take a look at the J35 for sale on Anarchy Classifieds. Quote "Boat updated in 2005 including: stiffening of the sump and aft section". Interesting.

 

Also related is the work done on the Soverel 33s sump: http://www.soverel33.com/Articles/HTML/S33...SumpRepair.html

 

 

 

Seeing the picture of the 120 leaping off of the backside of that wave (and many others I would guess) would eventually have an effect no matter how well built.

That is my thought also.

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On the J109 Class Association WEB site there is this piece:

 

While we had tremendous success as a class, we also faced some challenges. J/Boats and Pearson Composites identified a weak area in the sump that lead to excessive flexing in the keel and resulted in stress fractures in some US manufactured boats. With the help of third party composite and engineering specialists, J/Boats and Pearson developed an upgrade kit to strengthen the affected area. To date, over 100 upgrade kits have been shipped and all US manufactured boats are scheduled to be retrofit at the owners’ option. This has no doubt caused some concern among owners and raised questions with potential buyers.

 

Nothing found about it on the Jboats WEB page.

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I think you would find a lot of boats have this arrangement.

 

30 years ago, I had this happen on an IOR 1/2 tonner. The ballast was poured into a fiberglass keel and was internal ballast. The lead was about 9 inches from the top of the 'keel" forming a sump. The whole assembly was glassed onto the bottom of the boat. This developed a crack in the leading edge of the "sump". During one race it really opened up and I thought we were going to lose the boat. Too many people worked on it and tried bandaid fixes. Finally a reputable company chased all the cracks and rebuilt the sump. No more problems. The boat builder was out of business, but the dealer stood behind it at his expense. I appreciated that.

 

I have a J35 now and it has a sump arrangement similar to what the 120 people are reporting. Their was a report a couple of years ago that they too had a problem, but I could not confirm that.

ok, lots of boats, which ones? j-35 doesn't have a bulb so would have considerably less torque on the hull keel joint than keels w/bulbs.

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basically what happened with mad max....

 

weather was rough - blowing 25 - 30 on the nose with large swells. they were in the class behind us, so i didnt see them after the start, but heard some discussion on the vhf and of course at the bar the next morning. mad max was sailing with i believe their heavy #1 up. their sailmaker was on board and had an incredible amount of backstay on. after several hours of slogging upwind, one of the crew (owner's son) went below and stepped into water. they frantically started to pull up floor boards, open cabinets, etc thinking that a thru-hull had blown out. they pulled up the center floor boards above the aft end of the keel and there was the hole. the keel sump had pulled away from the hull. apparently, the boat was originally designed for the deep keel (?) and this boat had the short keel.

coast guard was called and finally showed up and initially was going to make them leave the boat. after some convincing, they finally gave the crew of mad max a pump which didnt work when they fired it up. finally, they got the pump going and got the boat stable (or slowed the sinking) and got the hole plugged up enough to tow her to shore. they were somewhere off of mobile, alabama at the time of the incident.

the owner had to fight with j boats and after a year or so, finally got another 120 (and had to come out of pocket on the deal i think).

 

i believe it was all over the posting board at the time.

 

bayrat signing out....

 

This (the bolded part) bothers me. We swapped the keel on our boat from shoal to deep. I wonder what the chance is that it could have screwed something on our boat as well (slightly different position for the bolts, etc).

 

Why don't you Brits just stick to playing cricket and leave the sailing to the sailors. You guys never did win an Americas Cup did you.

 

nice.

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ok, lots of boats, which ones? j-35 doesn't have a bulb so would have considerably less torque on the hull keel joint than keels w/bulbs.

 

Even so, we've popped the sump webs loose twice on my J-35

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Even so, we've popped the sump webs loose twice on my J-35
Please, how much abuse did it take to pop it loose, have got it fixed once and for all, and what did you do to fix it?

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Hey Eric,

 

Got an update on the results of your 120 fix? To what extent did you go and did you ever get a response from the manufacturer?

 

Just curious about whether or not we need to keep an eye on you during 'round the county next year. :P

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Hey Eric,

 

Got an update on the results of your 120 fix? To what extent did you go and did you ever get a response from the manufacturer?

 

Just curious about whether or not we need to keep an eye on you during 'round the county next year. :P

I'm more than just curious about that; I've noticed a whole slew of 120's coming on the market for sale. What gives?

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I'm more than just curious about that; I've noticed a whole slew of 120's coming on the market for sale. What gives?

I had CSR in Seattle work on the boat. They added a lot of Epoxy-Glass inside and out. The bill was about 10K. I'm comfortable with it and I'm not worried that I'll end up like Hasl Free. This morning at 5:00AM we leave for a 230mile trip dwon the coast to Astoria OR for the Oregon Offshore race on Thursday. Should be fun.

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Which are the advantages of using keel-sump. We can read about disadvantages already. Has J122 also keel-sump?

 

Thanks, Brane.

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Which are the advantages of using keel-sump. We can read about disadvantages already. Has J122 also keel-sump?

 

Thanks, Brane.

It has a lower center of gravity than an all lead keel and it is cheeper that a two metal steel keel/lead bulb type consturction.

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the J 120 hasl free had the keel damn near fall off a month ago. she's in the yard in san diego, scuttlebutt is there is a known problem for the keel structure and needs to be addressed. dont listen to the idiots saying just go for it. contact the factory and find out for sure......

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the J 120 hasl free had the keel damn near fall off a month ago. she's in the yard in san diego, scuttlebutt is there is a known problem for the keel structure and needs to be addressed. dont listen to the idiots saying just go for it. contact the factory and find out for sure......

Did you by any chance bother to read any of the other 265 posts?

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There is another possibility with the internal cracks. If the boat had been on the hard with too much weight on the keel, or has been grounded and then "worked" off the putty, the keelbolt pan lamination may have separated from the stub.

 

This is worth investigating.

 

The external cracks may or may not be just cosmetic. Are the ever children on the boat? If so, I would investigate anyway. You'll sleep better at night.

 

dash

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There is another possibility with the internal cracks. If the boat had been on the hard with too much weight on the keel, or has been grounded and then "worked" off the putty, the keelbolt pan lamination may have separated from the stub.

 

This is worth investigating.

 

The external cracks may or may not be just cosmetic. Are the ever children on the boat? If so, I would investigate anyway. You'll sleep better at night.

 

dash

Thanks for the input. But your well-intentioned input is a tad late.

 

This was a year-old thread that I bumped in response to the J-80 jabber going on. Hull 50 had rather extensive repairs that were made after consulting both with Composite Marine and a marine architect and performed by one of the most highly regarded boatyards around. I know squat of marine engineering (and maybe a little bit about mechanical engineering, although 25 years old), but I visited the boat several times during the repair. The owner did his homework and the thing was heavily reinforced.

 

I am comfortable enough with the reinforced structure that I not only raced on her during Oregon Offshore last year (which we won, by the way. I know, quit bragging?), but did the delivery (a very fun downhill run once we cleared Flattery). I crew regularly with her locally and I also plan to race with her on several distance and offshore races this year. Of course, I also took a personal look at the hull before we did the Astoria/Victoria race to ensure that the cracks hadn't returned. And I think I'll probably do the same thing this year. Nothing like seeing it with your own eyes. B)

 

No kids on the boat. Everyone aboard knows her history. And as a legal professional I know that this particular post would most likely exonerate the owners from any liability if the keel decided it preferred Davey Jones to Time Bandit and I got lost in the exchange. But I made my last child support payment in February.

 

As I'm sure I said somewhere in this thread: Eric drives Bandit like she's stolen. Check out his avatar for proof.

 

-DWO

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